Congressional Debacles and Convicting a School Shooter’s Mom

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • The Nevada Primary & Caucus

  • The Failure of the Immigration Negotiations

  • The Attempted Impeachment of Alejandro Mayorkas

  • What’s Happening in Court This Week

  • Michigan Mom Convicted of Involuntary Manslaughter in School Shooting Case

  • Outside of Politics: Sarah’s New Substack

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EPISODE RESOURCES

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.   

Beth [00:00:10] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics 

[00:00:14] Music Interlude. 

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news. Thank you so much for joining us today for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. We're so glad that you're here. I am here in body and in spirit. My voice is just barely here, okay? And I just appreciate your patience with that. I recognize this is an audio format. It's tough when your voice is barely here, but I'm going to soldier on. I think we have very good conversations coming for you on a series of debacles this week in the Republican primary in Congress, some real strain in the court system. And then we're going to spend some time working out a situation that I struggle to know what to think or feel about, which is the first conviction of a parent of a mass shooter in Michigan. And Outside of Politics, Sarah just has a lot going on this week. She has cleaned out her closet. She has started a Substack. She is the cover girl of Paducah Life Magazine. So we're going to celebrate all of Sarah's energy.  

Sarah [00:01:25] Started Substack sounds so much more serious than what actually happened, but I'm excited to talk about it. Okay, if you enjoyed today's show, we would love it if you share it with someone you love. It's Valentine's Day week coming up, so that would be a good opportunity for you to share. Leave us a review, send it on to someone in text message, especially an iPhone because then it automatically shows up in their podcast app, which is great. Still a lot of people need you to hold the phone and show them how to do it, guys. I still do that quite often in my life. I literally open the podcast app, find Pantsuit Politics, show them how it works, so don't hesitate to do that as well. We value and benefit from your recommendations and your reviews so much, and we'd love to have you invite someone you care about to join us here in the Pantsuit Politics community.  

Beth [00:02:09] Next up, let's talk about what just happened in Nevada.  

[00:02:12] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:22] Sarah, I made a list of things that all fall under the heading of debacle for me this week, and I wanted to just walk through those debacles with you and see what you're thinking.  

Sarah [00:02:32] There's a lot.  

Beth [00:02:33] The first one I would like to talk about, Nevada. Now, if you live in Nevada, love you. Not mad at you. I am really frustrated and I hate to do this, like, the media sucks narrative because I appreciate the media and value what they do, but I'm really frustrated with how this is being covered. So we had in Nevada a primary under state law that the Republican Party decided they did not really want to have. And so they went to court and tried to stop the primary. And they also decided we will just not award any of our delegates based on the primary, and we'll hold our own caucus.  

Sarah [00:03:14] Is that the Republican Party or was it the Trump campaign?  

Beth [00:03:18] Well, I think this gets back to your point that we should call it the MAGA party. And so the Nikki Haley campaign says what a joke this all is. I think this is one time when she rightly uses the word rigged about the awarding of delegates.  

Sarah [00:03:37] Yes. Agreed. Proper use of that verb.  

Beth [00:03:40] And she doesn't participate in the caucus. She files to be on the ballot in the primary. But she doesn't spend any resources campaigning in Nevada. Because why would you spend resources to earn zero delegates when you know the caucus process was designed to send all of Nevada's delegates to Trump. And the headlines coming out of it become about Nikki Haley with this embarrassing loss in the primary. That doesn't matter to none of the above. And I think it's wrong and I'm upset about it.  

Sarah [00:04:13] Yeah, I feel bad. I confused our News Brief listeners because I just assumed she was the only person on the ballot, and that's kind of how I was talking about it. And didn't even anticipate that there would be none of the above which 'won'. I think that's weird language; that's why I didn't use it. How does none of the above win? A person has to win, but it's not even winning for her because there are no delegates to win. So all the language is weird because of the situation they've created is weird. And this Beth is what I would like to say about that. We have had conversations. There has been a lot of reporting about the professionalization of the Trump campaign. And this to me says, I think maybe that's a bit overhyped. Now that woman in Florida freaks me out. I don't like her. She seems very capable.  

Beth [00:04:56]  Susie Wiles. Is that who you're talking about?  

Sarah [00:04:59] Yes. But otherwise, come on. What a mess. It looks silly. I was reading this morning that Latinos in Nevada feel very neglected because Trump didn't even bother. He rigged it so he won. He didn't show up. You're undercutting people's trust in the mail-in ballot process, which is going to be very important in the general. And you're creating all this confusion, frustration, resentment. And this is supposed to be from a campaign that's professional and is playing all the games out in advance and strategically acting. So doesn't seem very strategic to me. You don't use the word strategy and debacle at the same time. Not usually anyway.  

Beth [00:05:40] I think they would say how wonderful for them that all the headlines are Nikki Haley lost to none of the above in the primary that Trump sweeps the delegates from the caucus. I think their timeline is maybe different than yours on this. I am so frustrated because I think the story here is that the Republican Party wasn't interested in what Nevada voters had to say in the primary, and were willing to walk through a process that's borderline deceptive. The low information voter is not going to understand the difference between the primary and caucus here.  

Sarah [00:06:14] And they're going to feel deceived, rightfully so.  

Beth [00:06:17] I think so. And then for the Haley campaign to have to fight this headline instead of be able to reinforce the salient point, which is Trump stacked the deck for himself here. And that, to me, is the scandal of it.  

Sarah [00:06:33] Yeah. He's not upset about rigged elections. He's upset about elections that don't go his way, rigged or otherwise.  

Beth [00:06:38] That's exactly right.  

Sarah [00:06:40] And I think you see that level of raising and affecting the border deal. That's what upset me- these two stories together. So if you're not following, the Republican Party went to Joe Biden and said, "If you want to fund Ukraine, we want a border deal. The border is in crisis. We want a border deal." Joe Biden said, "Okay, I've got Democratic mayors knocking at my door. This is a huge issue. Tell me what you want and I will give it to you." And so they did. A long list of things that were inconceivable mere months, much less years ago, and zero things for the dreamers, which has been a high immigration priority for the Democratic Party for decades. Okay? They got everything they wanted, everything they wanted, and then they killed it before it even hit the for. Let poor Senator Langford from Oklahoma out to dry. I saw a quote where someone said, how does it feel to be hit by a bus? And he was like, yeah, and then that backed back over me. I mean, just talk about deception and betrayal. I cannot imagine how that man feels. So first the House said it's dead on arrival because Donald Trump said, "Kill it. I want to be able to beat up Joe Biden about immigration." Said right out loud, "I want to be able to use this as a campaign tactic, so don't fix the problem." That is what he said. That's what he said. I don't want to fix the immigration crisis. I want to be able to use it as a campaign tactic. So killed it in the House. The Senate, which is supposed to be the grownups in the room-- not anymore-- they folded like a deck of cards, left James Lankford out to dry. And they use this messed up logic of it doesn't matter how strong the laws we pass are, because Joe Biden won't enforce them. That might sound so much like it doesn't matter if you vote, because if I don't win, the election was rigged. Do you see what I'm saying? That thread to me, I'm like, oh shit, now it's infected the Senate, these Republicans who are supposed to be serious people. I mean, Chris Murphy went full succession. He was like, they're not serious people. And you know what? He's right.  

Beth [00:08:49] Yeah. Chuck Schumer recessed the chamber and said he was putting it in recess to give our Republican colleagues the night to figure themselves out.  

Sarah [00:08:58] Words.  

Beth [00:08:59] Which is correct.  

Sarah [00:09:00] And that's not even the most embarrassing thing that happened to the Republican Party last week.  

Beth [00:09:05] It's true. But let's spend another minute here, because when you talk about this being a Republican wishlist, this bipartisan deal that was struck, it is tightening the requirements for the initial asylum screen. So making it harder to claim asylum here. It's money for 100 new immigration judges to address the backlog. It's money for more machines to screen for fentanyl. It is doing the work that almost everyone agrees needs to be done. The Chamber of Commerce has endorsed it. The Union of Custom and Border Patrol agents has endorsed it. This seems like a no brainer that it is the time to do this. And before they even read it, Senate Republicans were saying no to it because of the coming election. It is embarrassing. I really appreciated this from Susan Collins, who voted to advance this deal. She said this has been an extremely unpredictable turn of events. And with that quote, Punchbowl noted that Susan Collins has not missed a single Senate vote in 27 years. I think we need to give her a moment of recognition for that. That's a hardworking legislator who really wants to get stuff done, say what you will about Susan Collins, but she really wants to get stuff done.  

Sarah [00:10:26] Susan Collins is a serious person. 

Beth [00:10:29]  She is a serious person.  

Sarah [00:10:30] I don't always agree with her, particularly around Supreme Court votes. I think she got duped, but she is a serious person. This reporting coming out from their caucus, where Senator Rounds from South Dakota is explaining why he couldn't vote for it, basically because he would get primary. Y'all just be honest. Just tell us why. But it's like I can't sell it to my voters. He said, don't do this bill because it doesn't do enough. And this president is not going to use those tools anyway. Then this the reporting. He actually broke into a small bit of laughter about the absurdity of that reasoning. I'm not disagreeing with the logic of it. I'm just simply saying that is the assessment that's out there right now. Well, you know what? I think that's definitely you should just be led completely and totally by the jacked up reasoning of your constituency and not ever, for once, exhibit any type of leadership. I think that's a great approach. Good job.  

Beth [00:11:17]  Honestly, this bill is hundreds of pages. The assessment that's out there right now is not based on the text of this bill. So your job as a leader is to go explain it. Go tell people what it actually says and why you're going to support it, and what happens if you don't. Because I read a very excellent analysis from Senator Thune, who's a member of Republican leadership, who said, "If we don't do it now, we've missed the window. The next Congress, for a variety of reasons, will not be able to pass immigration reform." So shoot your shot. That's the theme of 2024. You need to do it. Show up.  

Sarah [00:11:59] But he didn't.  

Beth [00:12:00] I know.  

Sarah [00:12:00] The three Johns (Barrasso, Thune, and Cornyn) under Mitch McConnell were like, no. Listen, and here's the thing. Let's just take a minute and remember that this is not new. They did this same crap in 2012. I read the most interesting reporting that when this was all happening, you had the Gang of Eight. They were working on this compromise and Fox News came out against it. And Marco Rubio went to Fox News and said, please stop. Give us a chance to explain it before you kill it. And they wouldn't because you know who's in charge in the MAGA party? It sure as hell isn't the United States senators, I can tell you that. It's not the politicians, it's the media environment and the far, far right ideologues of the party. It is such a disaster, and that's why it ends in nothing but debacle after chaos, after embarrassment. This is not even the end of the list. These people are such jokes. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be ugly. Can I just say, though, I think our listener, Becky, sum this up beautifully as we go into the next debacle. She said, "I am so over people telling me that they are conservative when they are not trying to preserve anything but blow up everything." Round of applause to Becky. She nailed it. That's it. That's exactly it. They've done almost nothing this Congress, and they're finally getting a chance to do something, and they're messing it up. And not even to something that would have impact on people's life like immigration.  

[00:13:25] Just as something that's just red meat for their far right ideological base, which was the impeachment of Alejandro Mayorkas, the head of Homeland Security. They're going to impeach him, Beth, because he's not doing his job. They failed. Now, they brought in Al Green from the hospital in a wheelchair, but they failed. Mike Johnson, the speaker of the House, who has one job-- I mean, listen, you can just be a congressional hobbyist. You can just be a person who reads stuff about Congress and the speaker of the House when it really bubbles up to the national level. And by this point, you should have read Nancy Pelosi make one thing very clear. You do not bring it to the floor until you have the votes, period. You just don't because it's embarrassing. But that's what he did. He didn't have the votes. They brought the impeachment, which failed. Then they put forward their own Israeli defense funding bill, which they knew was going to fail. This was like their answer to the end of the border deal. Like, see, we still care about Israel. We're going to fund it this way even though we asked you to put this with border control. We walked into that track. We said, do this. Just kidding. We're going to kill it. Then they create this separate Israeli funding bill. And it fails right after they Mayorkas vote. I mean what a clown show. What a total and complete clown show. Again, they are not serious people.  

Beth [00:14:55] I actually don't mind bills coming to the floor and failing. I think it's healthy for them to put more on the floor and vote it up or down, and then move on. What I think is so unhealthy here was so many things. But I think it's unhealthy that for an impeachment, they intend to do this again when Steve Scalise is back because they think it's appropriate to do an impeachment that passes only by one vote. It's just clearly messed up.  

Sarah [00:15:25] Knowing it's going to go to the Senate and fail. Knowing that it sends a very dangerous precedent, which is why a couple members of their own party voted against it to say, are we going to start impeaching cabinet members because we disagree with their policy?  

Beth [00:15:38] What I see here is the coalescing of the MAGA platform as being only about the humans who fill their roles.  

Sarah [00:15:47] Only blowing it up.  

Beth [00:15:48] And that's really the platform to a lot of what people are talking about when they talk about re-electing Donald Trump. JD Vance was out this weekend talking about this. Let's fire everybody who disagrees and replace them with loyalists. Let's ignore the orders of the court that we deem illegitimate because of the people issuing them. Let's replace the cabinet secretary because it's not about the policy, it's about the person. Donald Trump says, make me the president because I'm the only one who can do this. Everything is individualized, which is a road to authoritarianism. That's how authoritarianism works. Everything is individualized. And I think this is a clear indicator that Congress is adopting that philosophy, and I'm interested to see. And really that's all this Republican conference is focused on. Most of this year has been about what individual person is going to be our speaker. It's not about anything else, just the people.  

Sarah [00:16:55] I mean, they've passed like 20 something bills. It's pathetic.  

Beth [00:17:01] The real pathetic thing is that we are once again about to see government funding expire. And there's no plan, best I can tell, to keep that from happening again when all the energy is consumed by stunts like this. The other thing that went down in flames in the house this week is a standalone bill funding Israel that Mike Johnson put together because he is deliberately trying to, I guess, force the administration's hand on Israel without coupling it with Ukraine and Taiwan. And it went down. He can't get anything together because all of it is driven by this media strategy, just as you said.  

Sarah [00:17:45] Yeah. And that's the thing. Look, if he was acting in good faith and was in any way, shape or form prepared, qualified, experienced for his positions, then yeah, sure, putting things up and letting them fail like that Israeli funding bill, maybe. That's not what's happening. That is not what he's doing. He's not starting a conversation in America. He is way in over his head. They all are, because they just came there to blow things up. This is what happens when you continue to put people in government positions who hate the government, who hate it and just want to destroy it. I just so hope that they pay some sort of political consequence for this, because it's a joke and they're making our government a joke.  

Beth [00:18:38] I wish it were funny though. Instead of being funny, it is creating just incredible strain and tension. So let's go to the court, which Congress has put responsibility on in so many ways for dealing with the actions of former President Trump during his term. So two really significant things happening in court this week. The Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the Colorado case about disqualifying former President Trump from the ballot under the 14th amendment. And whatever they do in that case, it's bad. There's no good outcome from any of this because we're in such a-- the term that keeps coming to me is like civic bankruptcy. We're just dealing with this fallout of this horrible thing that happened. And there are really no good options. We're just trying to find the best options that we can.  

Sarah [00:19:28] Tell me if you feel this. I feel like with the MAGA party, this wild ride we're on, two things are coalescing at the same time. Which is the MAGA party, this 'professional operation' is cinching the nomination. At the same time, most people are waking up to the election and saying, "I don't want him fully indicted being the nominee." It's like both things are happening at the same time. It's wild. I really don't fault Nikki Haley for staying in because I am increasingly seeing a pathway where everybody goes, no way. He is in so much trouble. What are we even talking about? I don't know, it might be wishful thinking, but there's just a tenor to the conversation. There's an increasing attention and weight to these arguments, to the decisions that feel like they are changing things. Again, maybe it's just wishful thinking. Maybe that's how I feel.  

Beth [00:20:36] I put into the universe my desire for Nikki Haley to go full YOLO. And then she was on SNL. And I was like,  Nikki, do this. Again, do it your way. It won't be my way. It won't be everything that I desire from her. But I am so glad that she's hanging in. Other things happening significantly in court this week is that we got a decision from the Court of Appeals in the January 6th criminal case, saying that former President Trump is not absolutely immune from any criminal liability.  

Sarah [00:21:08] No, you're kidding. Well, it's like I said on the News Brief. You know why they said that? Because it's a dumb argument. The 14th amendment is difficult.  No one thinks that just because you've been president, you're immune from criminal prosecution forever. That's ludicrous. That's silly. It's not just ludicrous. It's silly. It's a silly argument.  

Beth [00:21:29] It's silly because the notion that a person serves as president and then becomes a citizen again is foundational to our system. That was one of the most radical ideas that was brought to our Constitution in the formation of our government. So I don't want to be dismissive of it or take it for granted. I think that we've kind of lost our way because we've taken some of this for granted. I really loved that the Court of Appeals, in making this decision, said that it was doing it not in violation of a separation of powers, but in celebration of it, that this is how it's supposed to work. That the president, a person, is subject to the laws of Congress like any other person and subject to the oversight of the court like any other person. So I thought it was a beautiful decision worth reading in full. I talked about it at length on More to Say, and I hope that you'll check that out because to me it was really important. And my hope is that the Supreme Court will not review it, that the Supreme Court will not take this and just let it stand and let that case proceed.  

Sarah [00:22:41] I hope so. I don't know what they're going to do in the 14th amendment case. I don't think they're going to disqualify Donald Trump, but I think this one is such settled precedent. Not that that stopped them before, but I agree. I hope that they just let it stand. We shall see.   

Beth [00:23:00] I do think that 14th amendment case is hard, and we're going to turn our attention now to another hard case out of Michigan, where the mother of a school shooter has been convicted of involuntary manslaughter.  

[00:23:11] Music Interlude.  

[00:23:21] Sarah, I wanted to talk with you about this Michigan case because I really struggle with not just how I feel about it, but how to think about it too. I don't want to talk about the families names here. There's enough attention on them. But the basic facts are that in 2021, a 15 year old boy killed four students at his school. His parents were then charged in connection with his actions. You might remember it was weird. They ran. They tried to hide in a warehouse. The police apprehended them and we have just had the trial of the mother. The father goes to trial in March. She was convicted after an 11 hour deliberation. The jury's decision seems to have turned on her failure to secure the gun. That she was the last person who had the gun, and she left it unsecured in a car. And then the parents were called into school because the boy had drawn a picture of the gun and himself shooting classmates. And there's a dispute about what went down at that school meeting. But the fact remains that he stayed at school, and then he did retrieve the gun from his backpack and kill his classmates.  

Sarah [00:24:40] That's the part that really got me. Was this guidance counselor meeting where the gun was in his backpack the whole time, and no one checked the backpack, and they let him stay at school. It strikes me the same way we talk about Uvalde and the police response. I think that there is still a sense in America that it won't happen to me. It's not even a lack of imagination. You don't need imagination in America in 2024 to understand how many guns there are and how likely you are to be affected by gun violence. And to me, like, that's the lesson here. And that's the lesson with Uvalde. Stop thinking it won't happen to you. Stop thinking your different. Until we decide as a society, until we accept as a society that everyone is at risk of this. It's the tenor of those Covenant parents who thought, "But I'm the right kind of parents. I'm conservative, I own guns. I'll go to the Tennessee legislator and they'll understand." And they didn't, and they ignored them. You feel that thread and all these stories of like-- again, I don't want to call it a lack of imagination because you don't need the imagination. But that's what's happening to me. It's like I read that and I'm like, are you kidding me? Now in America no one checked his backpack? That's wild. And I think I have more sympathy for a parent not being able to see that in their own child than I do almost anybody else. I will never forget the sister of the shooter at my school brought her brother to school, and he had a ton of guns on him. A ton.  

[00:26:25] And I was a teenager and not sensitive or empathetic. And I remember asking her, "You didn't think, what is all that?" And she was like, "Who would think that of their own brother?" Especially in 1997. And I think about that all the time. Because even if you're a person driven by anxiety, it takes you a long time to realize the stuff that you're worried about always catches you off guard. It doesn't matter how busy your brain is trying to anticipate them. That's not how life works. So I have more sympathy for the actual family members, because it's just hard to think that of your own child. If you have not read Sue Klebold book, one of the Columbine shooter's mothers, highly recommend it, because she walks through what happened and what she missed. But there was even a woman in that in that story, there was like a friend's mother who went to the police and said, "These kids are dangerous, especially Eric." Not Sue Klebold's son. Like, he's dangerous. She tried. She tried to do everything she could and it wasn't enough. And it's like, I think that is the hardest part, where you feel like somebody could have done more or they did everything and it wasn't enough. Because we can keep doing this, but until we decide as a collective to do something, it only makes us feel better in the short term to blame people like this woman.  

Beth [00:27:45] I think that's what I'm struggling with. I rarely believe that criminalizing conduct and punishing people harshly has the scope of deterrent effect that we hope it will. But I understand that that's what these prosecutors are going for. A way to say to people, no, you must take this seriously. And if you are going to have guns in your home, you are responsible for what happens with those guns.  

Sarah [00:28:12] And I'm not opposed to that. I'm really not.  

Beth [00:28:14] I'm not opposed to that either. I'm not opposed to that either. I really struggle with the prospect of 60 years in prison for a parent. I'm not sure what good that does. She expressed (this mother) on the stand a lot of what you were saying, Sarah. She said you think about how to protect your child from the world. You don't think about having to protect the world from your child. She also said some weird things. She said she didn't really have any regrets. There weren't things that she would have done differently. And I think it's hard to receive that without the context that she has been in jail for two years and two months awaiting trial.  

Sarah [00:28:58] That's just mental survival at that point.  

Beth [00:29:01] That's right. I don't think anything happens to make you think more clearly and grow and evolve when you're awaiting trial for two years in jail. I think that's it.  

Sarah [00:29:11] Or the opposite. Or you're just shutting down to survive, right? It's almost like two extremes. Either you're opening all the garage doors in your brain to allow a path forward, even behind the walls of a prison, or you're shutting all those doors so that you can survive behind the walls of the prison.  

Beth [00:29:29] And, look, a lot of that depends on the capacity that you had when you walked in. And your capacity as a parent to know how to respond to indicators of mental health struggles in your kids is not the same for all of us. The prosecution presented evidence of text that this shooter sent to his mom saying, "I think there are ghosts in our house." And she thought it was a joke. She thought he joked about the house being haunted. She said she didn't take it seriously. I don't know where that line is, where we're convicting this woman for being not the most attentive mom versus convicting her for just a level of reckless disregard that led to the deaths of these other children. It is an impossible situation. The only feeling I'm sure of when I read about this case is that I just feel for these jurors having to make this decision. That's I think almost too big of an ask. We ask a lot of jurors every day. But for the first time, to have to consider the liability of a parent here on these facts, it just feels like such an ask of these people to me.  

Sarah [00:30:52] I think what I really didn't like was the emphasis on her neglectful parenting, this idea that she was more consumed with her horses and her extramarital affair than her son.  

Beth [00:31:03] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:31:05] I don't mind you saying there will be legal responsibilities if you do not correctly and safely store your weapons. But that's not a winning case. And they probably knew that. That's not enough. Not for involuntary manslaughter.  I don't mind some legal charges for gun storage and safety and negligence, but this idea that she just wasn't paying enough attention to her child really bothers me. It really bothers me. Not because I don't think that they're neglectful parents-- they absolutely are. But the idea that you just didn't love your son enough is shitty. It's just really shitty. And I really think Sue Klebold's book should be required reading. Because she walks you through that maze of your own thinking, and the day to day stresses, and the fact that at the end of the day, your child is another human being who you do not have control over. That's just the reality that none of us really want to face. There's this really great piece in The New Yorker by Patrick Radden Keefe about Zach Brettler, this teen who jumped, was pushed, maybe thought he could make it, from this apartment building in London and he died. And it turns out that he had this whole created life that his parents didn't know about. Where he was faking being an oligarchs kid and got swept up with these very dangerous people. And his parents had no idea. And I just think that's the fear, right? But that's the fear we don't want to face because it's the reality. They are their own people.  

[00:32:52] And as much as we love them, as much as the culture tells us, we should be able to help them. We should be able to fix it. And that's what I think frustrates me and concerns me about this case. It's just one more message that it's on you. It's on you as a mother. It's on you as the parent. And I don't mind it's on you as the gun owner. That does not bother me. It really doesn't. But it does bother me that it's on you as the parent, especially the parent of a school shooter. Because let me tell you something, she was already in prison and would have been for the rest of her life. I tell people this all the time. When when our school shooter came up for parole because he was 14 years old,  there was all this debate. Should he be let out? And and he'll just go on and he'll just go about his life. And I said, "Let me ask you a question. Would you rather be the mother of a victim or the mother of the shooter?" Sit with that, because most people would say the mother of the victim. Why do you think that is? Because that's a torture. She doesn't need to sit in prison to have to be in her own prison for the rest of her life being the parent of a child who did this. That's awful. That is awful.  

Beth [00:34:09] She said I wish she had killed us instead.  

Sarah [00:34:11] Yes. I mean, come on. So to compound that and say you were paying too much attention to your horses, really? Is that necessary? Again, if the charges had been focused on the gun storage, that really would not have bothered me. There was a prosecutor here because, again, my community is a second generation community experiencing school shooting. We had a shooting at Marshall County after I moved back, and the gun was just like sitting on a closet shelf, very easily accessible. And I think the prosecutor really weighed whether or not to charge the parents with neglectful storage. It's not the official charge, but you know what I mean. And that would not have bothered me. I think that would have been fine. Because I do think there should be legal responsibility if you leave your car in a gun and somebody steals it out of your car. Bu this is different.  

Beth [00:35:03] I think there are two calls to action here for state legislatures. I think the first is to define a crime that actually fits this around the storage of a gun. That we need to define the responsibility of a gun owner to safely store the weapon and to define the consequences if they fail to do that, and the gun is used in a way that causes harm.  

Sarah [00:35:26] I don't even care if the gun isn't used to cause harm. If you call the police because your gun got stolen and you had it sitting in a car seat, I think you're the one that should be charged. How about that? That's going to go nowhere quick in a lot of red states. But that's okay.  

Beth [00:35:38] Well, that's the thing. People aren't going to want to define that crime because they'll see it as an intrusion.  

Sarah [00:35:43] Please.  

Beth [00:35:44] But I think it needs to be defined. I think that's much better than trying to convict people of manslaughter. We need to get precise about what we're charging when we talk about criminal law. The second call to action, I think, though, is to continue to figure out how to put more funding and resources into a healthy, functioning mental health system. Because right now, in a lot of states, if you are a parent, especially a parent without a lot of resources and you have concerns about your child, the system can overreact in a way that's dangerous, too. That's why this meeting with the counselors is really hard. I agree, I cannot understand why they didn't check the backpack, and I know that there are a lot of people who are in their own prisons about that forever too. Why didn't we check the backpack? So I'm not trying to damp on that. But if you are in a place where you have a child who says, "I'm having hallucinations, please help me," and you call the police, your child can be put in a system that is horrifying. We just don't have good places for people to turn everywhere, especially people without a lot of resources to get the treatment that kids need. And so we have to build systems that can respond in a compassionate and loving and actually helpful way to those kinds of crises.  

Sarah [00:37:04] Well, since we are in an election year, I would like to remind everyone that Joe Biden did do that on a federal level. They passed gun control legislation after Uvalde that, listen, probably not going to do a lot with regards to reducing violent crime because it was a bipartisan compromise bill. But what it did do is invest a massive amount, a once in a generation amount, in mental health resources. I've read so many people, especially mental health, public health experts, that's like this is going to change the game. It's going to take a while. It takes a while. We got to get people through school. We have to get more counselors. We have to get the centers to house the counselors. But in five years, in 10 years, we're going to see the difference. We're going to have the resources for people when they feel like a family member, a child, or just a member of their community, is a danger to themselves or others. And I think that's as much as we can to call out and remind people it's coming. They did it. I want to see actual gun violence reduction. Which the MAGA party and the Republican Party, both of them, are a huge obstacle to. But I think that that will matter. And it's probably already mattering in a lot of places. But we don't know those cases. We don't get a headline when they're prevented. That's the problem. 

Beth [00:38:27] Where it helps, where it works. I'm really glad that you brought that up. And I think it's so hard for people to share their stories about mental health assistance. But as those resources come online, we do need to hear those stories of success to build trust in the system, because there are so many horrifying stories that come out of it. So I hope resources will be dedicated to telling those success stories as well. Because this family needed more support. And I don't know if they would have asked for it anyway. Those things are generations in the making. But I do feel like this mom and then probably the dad next month are going to face consequences for what I'm sure are some personal failures, but that are also societal failures. And it makes me sad.  

[00:39:18] Music Interlude.  

[00:39:28] Sarah, we always end with what's on our minds Outside of Politics. And as my voice probably indicates, not much here. I'm just in survival mode trying to get out of this infection. So you tell me about your big week. Because I just was sitting, finding the end of the internet, and I get an email from your Substack, and I was very surprised. So tell me what's going on.  

Sarah [00:39:49] So was I. I launched it on a whim. Okay. It starts with my closet, Beth. This is how it starts. My closet was out of control. It was dirty. It was messy. It was overwhelming. So on Monday I was like, it's time. And so I spent all day on my feet cleaning out my closet. Closets gets so dirty.  

Beth [00:40:11] Oh, so dirty.  

Sarah [00:40:13] Why do they get so dirty? I'm not cooking in there anyway.  

Beth [00:40:18] It's the repository of our lives, you know. It just stacks up.  

Sarah [00:40:21] Oh my God. So there was the cleaning. I got all my clothes on one sort of like rack, which was a moment of personal self-awareness. I have a lot of clothes, Beth. I have a lot of white. Like 40% of the things I hung up were white. Please don't let me purchase any more white clothes.  

Beth [00:40:42] The problem, though, is that white really works for you. That's why you have it.  

Sarah [00:40:46] I do. In my defense, I know you know my year of cherish/less because I can't quite let go of less. White gets dingy. You got to spread out the wear. So I have several white button up. You can't wear the same one all the time. If you really like it, it'll be kaput like that. Okay, so there are some reasoning. There is some logic in the madness. Okay. But I got it all cleared out. And I mean, it looks so good in there. And then I got that Marie Kondo energy. The first time I did Marie Kondo for my whole house, I ran for office and started this podcast with you. For real. It's it's real. Do you feel that when you clean things out? All of a sudden your brain is like, I got some space. 

Beth [00:41:27]  For sure. Absolutely.  

Sarah [00:41:28] It's a thing. Okay, so I'm sitting there. I'm reading all my emails, we have two meetings get canceled.  I usually post what I read on Instagram, but as we all know, I don't want to be on Instagram anymore unless Taylor and Travis drag me there. I've set up a bunch of speed bumps with some apps that make me answer questions and do some task before I can open it. My phone goes grayscale at 3 p.m.. I'm really trying to push it out there. And I didn't love doing it on Instagram because I felt the pressure to like post as I finished a book, because then there might be another post. And you don't want to post [inaudible]. You know what I'm saying? Like, there was some deadline-ish pressure to post on Instagram when I would finish a book that I didn't like. So I thought, well, maybe I'll post them all at the end of the month. But it's February 8th and I had still not posted for January because I also didn't want to do that. And so I was like, but I do want to talk about the books I've read. So I was like, oh, I don't know. And then I was reading Kendra's email, The Lazy Genius, and she always puts all her books in the email. And I was like, I could do that. I could just write them in a Substack. I like Substack because it sort of feels like a blog, which is how It started in social media.  

[00:42:37] And I do have a list from like 2018, my old school blog. And I was like, okay, well, why don't I just do that? So on a whim, I did it. I was like, got it, set it up, send it out. It was so easy and so fun and I really like it. I just like that I have control. I can post as much or as little as I want. So don't go to my Substack because you want regular correspondence about what I'm reading, y'all. This is going to be when I feel like it, at least monthly, maybe more. But I really enjoyed the kind of more expansive space to talk about it. And also, here's the truth. Sometimes I don't like books, but I don't want to put people on blast on Instagram if I don't like their book. You know what I mean? I just need a little private space to talk about maybe I didn't like that book. Because every time I put like a 4 or 5 star on, I can hear Jamie Goldman in my head being like, everything can't be a five star. But I don't want to put a three star or a two star on Instagram, you know what I'm saying? Like, it just feels mean.  

Beth [00:43:35] I just read a novel that I didn't like very much, and I just thought, I'm just not going to tell anybody. It just wasn't great. That's fine.  

Sarah [00:43:42] But you should tell people because people should be protected from bad books, you know what I'm saying?  

Beth [00:43:48] But it's also subjective.  

Sarah [00:43:49] Yeah, it is..  

Beth [00:43:50] Which is what I think is the value of people who do this. Ann Bogle is obviously the queen of it.  

Sarah [00:43:56] Yeah, the queen.  

Beth [00:43:57] When you are regularly sharing your thoughts, then people can figure out if they're going to kind of see it the way you do or not. I don't care enough tip for people to know. So I think it would be very wrong of me to be like, I didn't like this book because what are you judging that against. I'm not regularly telling you about what I like in a novel. So I think putting it out there-- my only worry for you is that it will become another job. Because I think it is so hard to have true hobbies when you do creative work. And it's so easy to feel the should of I should post again or it's time for this, for it to all become kind of a chore when you do creative work and you publish it.  

Sarah [00:44:42] That's true. Well, the reason I wanted to do it is because I really try to have a commonplace journal where I record my quotes. I'm reading this book right now called Subtract-- because, you know, you're a plus. And the author is talking about if we just we're adding information but we're not distilling it into wisdom. That's why I really want to write about what I've read. I don't want to just plow through the books to rack up some big number on my reading guide. I do want just a little, just a dash of accountability to process what I've read. You know what I'm saying? Like, not just to read, but I want to turn it into something. Like what we were talking on More to Say, like, pull it from one side of my brain to the other and figure out what I took away from it. So I just want to space that. Y'all, this is a free newsletter. Again, do not depend on when it will come out. But I did want something. And I miss writing like that, like on a blog sometimes. I really do. Even though when Maggie tells in the newsletter, I'm often delinquent. See, I'm a mystery wrapped in an enigma. Beth, this is what is the reality.  

Beth [00:45:47] I get it. I have a little bit of a pull to write about faith exploration.  

Sarah [00:45:53] Yeah, you set up your Instagram about that.  

Beth [00:45:56] But then it felt the same way. It just felt-- I don't know.  

Sarah [00:46:00] You need a Substack. I'm telling you, maybe you should just take that account to a Substack too. It feels less pressure to me.  

Beth [00:46:06] I just don't know. I think I will turn it into pressure for myself.  

Sarah [00:46:10] Yeah.  

Beth [00:46:10] So I'm trying to figure out what's the right thing there, but I get it. I think when you are a person who loves to communicate, there's really no end to that. And it's just trying to figure out, like, how do I put that in containers that are manageable for my life?  

Sarah [00:46:23] I did get most talkative in high school, Beth. Don't forget. Actually fun, little side note quickly before we wrap up, I talk about in the my new feature in Paducah Life magazine. You guys, I'm the cover of Paducah Life. This is the culmination of my life, Beth. I don't want to put too much emphasis on this. Paducah Life magazine has been the thing in Paducah since 1990, and I always wanted to be the cover girl, and now I am. Beth, it's a dream come true!  

Beth [00:46:51] I'm So Happy for you.  

Sarah [00:46:52] It's so fun. And the funnest part is that I pitched to darling-- do you know Interview magazine where, like, the celebrities interview the other celebrities? It's really cool and they always have the coolest conversations. And so as some of y'all know, Sarah Bradley from Top Chef, is from Paducah. We actually went to high school together. So Sarah interviewed me for this Paducah Life feature. Now it's not online yet, but don't worry, guys, because we're going to share that conversation probably over the summer that Sarah and I had. It was so fun because I only get to talk to her in the moments when she's, like, passing me in the restaurant, or when we had that awesome event at the frat house during our weekend in Paducah. But that was still just like 30 minutes. We sat to talk for like almost two hours. It was so fun. So that was another super fun thing that happened this week.  

Beth [00:47:35] Well, congratulations. You got a lot going on over there. Thank you all so much for spending time with us today. Please remember that if you enjoyed today's show or any of our work, we would love for you to share it with the people in your lives. You can tell them that I don't always sound like this. We'll get through it. 

Sarah [00:47:53] Bless it. Just everybody just close their eyes and think healing thoughts for Beth's upper respiratory system right now.  

Beth [00:48:01] I really appreciate it.  

Sarah [00:48:02] That's going to work. That works.  

Beth [00:48:04] I believe it does. We'll be back next week and hopefully I'll sound back to normal then. Until then, everybody have the best weekend available to you.  

[00:48:12] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.   

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