Christian Nationalism Hurts Both America and the Church with Rob Reiner
TOPICS DISCUSSED
God & Country with Rob Reiner and Dan Partland
Outside of Politics: Making the Bed
Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do it without you. To support the show, please subscribe to our Premium content on our Patreon page or Apple Podcasts Subscriptions, or share the word about our work in your circles. Sign up for our newsletter or follow us on Instagram to keep up with everything happening in the world of Pantsuit Politics. You can find information and links for all our sponsors on our website.
EPISODE RESOURCES
This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news. Thank you so much for being here for our new episode today. We're very excited. We have a special interview with producer Rob Reiner (that that one, Rob Reiner) and director Dan Partland about their new documentary, God and Country. God and Country looks at the implications of Christian nationalism and how it distorts not only our constitutional republic, but also the faith of Christianity. Regardless of your faith or lack thereof, this documentary provides an important look at how a certain sect of Christians in America are influencing our politics. We were very honored to get to chat with these two about their work, and we hope that you will enjoy this conversation as much as we did. God and Country is in select theaters starting today. You can check out the website in our show notes to find a theater near you. And then Outside of Politics, we're sharing something that I have no chill about whatsoever. It's a rare subject that I feel this strongly about, but stick around to hear what that is. This is something that I think is just necessary for everyone.
Sarah [00:01:34] If you have family members who are struggling with understanding Christian nationalism or understanding the threat of Christian nationalism, this is a great episode to forward on. You don't have to convince everyone in your life to listen to every episode of Pantsuit Politics, but I think we're always looking for curation. And so if you feel like an episode hits a mark, pass it along. Pass it along, say, "Hey, I know this is a conversation we've had in the past. This podcast really help me understand this. We would love that. It means a lot to us to help bring in new listeners and to bring in particularly fresh conversation on much needed topics like this one.
Beth [00:02:06] So without further ado, here's our conversation with Rob Reiner and Dan Portland about God and Country.
Sarah [00:02:22] Partland and Rob, thank you so much for coming on Pantsuit Politics.
Rob Reiner [00:02:25] Yeah, thanks for having us.
Dan Partland [00:02:26] Thank you.
Sarah [00:02:27] We're so excited to talk about the film. My first question is this is such a huge topic with so many different constituencies. I know in just our audience we have people who have lived this, who have been in these communities or in families that have been affected directly by Christian nationalism. We have people who are learning about it for the first time. We have people that it feels like a different planet. So when you were sitting down to start to tell this story, to try to share where we're at, where we've been, how did you decide where to start? How did you decide who to tell who to do? How did you decide who are we trying to tell this to? Whose attention are we trying to get with this undertaking?
Rob Reiner [00:03:16] Well, I think we're trying to reach everybody. And what we were able to do, I think in the film is, first of all, a lot of people don't even know what Christian nationalism is. I mean, they'll think that the film is going to be an attack on Christianity. It couldn't be further from the truth. It's the opposite. And the reason we have the spokespeople that we do in the film who are all very devout Christians, conservative Christians of many of them, is to talk about what Christian nationalism is and the danger that it presents, not just for the country, but for Christianity itself. And that, to me, is what the film is all about, is to try to reach as many people as possible, to define what Christian nationalism is, and to show how dangerous it can be not only to democracy, but actually to Christianity, how it is hurting Christianity. And these very prominent, reputable, conservative Christians talk about that specifically in the film.
Dan Partland [00:04:24] Such a sensitive thing to talk about people's faith. I just have too many people in my life who are deeply devout, who I have tons of respect for, would never want to do anything to offend them. And I definitely talked with all those people a lot before starting this film to gather their thoughts and perspectives, and to make sure that the voices that we had in the film were absolutely irrefutable in terms of their Christian bona fides. These are not people who are looking to take down Christianity in any way. If anything, they're people who are looking to lift it up. But we still have to be able to speak critically about things that aren't going well within the faith and within our body politic without having that seem to be an attack on all people. Most Christians are not Christian nationalists, but it is a growing and strong movement in America.
Beth [00:05:16] I attended a national church conference this summer where we considered a resolution as a church to condemn Christian nationalism.
Dan Partland [00:05:24] That sounds very dramatic.
Beth [00:05:25] It was dramatic. It was dramatic in that, overwhelmingly, the room had a common definition of Christian nationalism, associated it with extreme politics, and felt compelled as a church to speak out against it. But there was a voice of dissent in the room who really was defining it differently and was struggling with what he felt was an attack on patriotism. And our church is very explicit about not tying patriotism and faith together, but he wanted to be able to say, I am both a Christian and I would call myself a nationalist. I love this country. So how do you intend through the film to work on that distinction? Because it isn't just religion and an extreme politicized version of religion that you're working with here, it also gets to people who think about the flag in a particular way, who think about what it means to be a patriot in a particular way.
Rob Reiner [00:06:20] Well, that's a great question because when you define-- Dan talks about the fact that if you talk about a nationalist, you saying, well, I'm a patriot, I love our country and I'm Christian and I'm a devout Christian, and I believe in my faith and all of that. The problem is, if you look at America, it's a pluralistic society. It believes in the separation of church and state. And if you tie nationalism to a religion, you're going against the concept of patriotism. A patriot is somebody who honors the Constitution, believes in the Constitution, believes in the rule of law, believes in the separation of church and state. And if you are unwilling to separate church from state, you are going against the Constitution. And I would argue that that's not patriotic. It's patriotic to honor the Constitution. And so it would be great to have the discussion with that person that was at your conference, and to really sit down and talk to him about what is patriotism? Is patriotism my country right or wrong? Because we know that slavery was wrong. We know that we did certain things to native Americans that was wrong. We know we've done certain things to women. Not giving them the right to vote was wrong. So we have a way of dealing with that in this wonderful constitution that we have, which allows it to be amended and allows it for us to have a more perfect union. So the film is designed to have that conversation, that specific conversation with that guy that you talked about at your conference, to say, what does that mean to be a Christian nationalist? What does that mean? And if that means my way or the high way or you have to believe like I believe otherwise you're not welcome in this country, then I would argue that that's not right. And so that's what the film is about, to open that conversation so that Christians can embrace their Christianity and not feel that they have to force their religion on anybody, and particularly not in a violent way.
Sarah [00:08:57] I'm just struck. Well, the first thing I noticed in your talking is that it's so smart, and it's a very similar strategy to what the January 6th Committee used, which is Republicans using conservative voices to say, this is the problem that we've seen. I mean, everybody testifying before the January 6th Committee, Republicans and conservatives. And I think when you're trying to get at what's so difficult, which is a radical ideology that's occupying a political space, an extreme ideology that's occupying a partisan political space to say, we can't just come out of this as outsiders. We can't just come at it as critics, because that's going to shut people down. And I think what you're getting at so accurately with this film and what you're naming here now, is that part of this radical strategy is just to redefine things. It's to redefine Christianity. It's to redefine nationalism. It's to redefine what the Constitution stands for. I mean, even as a person who's pretty well-versed in Christian nationalism, the footage of Marjorie Taylor Greene and others stand up and being like, there's no separation of church and state. They made that up. That's just the definitional nature of that.
Rob Reiner [00:10:16] It's the definition of disinformation. Yeah. They push disinformation on people. And so the way they hear that and they go, "Yeah, there's no separation." There's a couple of places in the film where we say that, but in reality it's in the Constitution three times.
Dan Partland [00:10:32] Look, I hate the term Christian nationalism. And we all should. It's really hard to deal with. It sounds like it might be two very good things. Love of country with faith. It's not that. And we do have to explain to people what it means and what it's all about. First of all, there's a sort of technical definition, but the simplest way to talk about the difference between nationalism and patriotism is that patriotism is about loving the country for its values, for its virtues, for what it lays out, of who Americans are being proud of, American virtues. Nationalism is about loving it because it's ours. This is our country. And so nationalist movements around the world they define who participates in this, by geographic boundaries, by ethnicities, by religions, by races. They use those factors to say, who is really fully empowered? Who is really part of this nation? In the United States, we took it in another direction and we said, that's not what defines it. What defines it is our adherence to these values, to these beliefs in the Constitution. And that's about the power of government coming from the people, and doesn't look down on the people who decide who gets to participate.
Rob Reiner [00:11:53] It starts with we the people. We the people is who the Constitution represents.
Dan Partland [00:12:00] So that's the nationalism part. But the Christian part is, yeah, it's a misnomer. I wish it weren't in the title because there's nothing Christian about this movement.
Sarah [00:12:07] Yeah.
Dan Partland [00:12:08] It's really a political movement, masquerading as faith.
Sarah [00:12:13] I mean, I remember being so struck by that moment where I don't remember where I read it for the first time that they started talking about the number of people who define themselves as evangelical outside of any church attendance. There there was no church attendance involved. It was just a set of political ideologies that has begin to set and define that term. I think there's even a saying on the cover of The New York Times right now about that it's a new brand of evangelicals supporting Donald Trump, that it's a political ideology. It's not any adherence to any religious principles.
Dan Partland [00:12:50] Evangelical is really complicated because unlike a lot of the other denominations, it doesn't really have a definition. And so the definition has become a descriptor more than a denomination. And so anybody in all of these studies, they talk about self-identified evangelicals. A lot of these people don't come from evangelical traditions. Many of them don't go to church at all. But it's a political identity that they see on TV. And that's the version of God and country that they want to ascribe to.
Beth [00:13:26] You highlight throughout the film that a key feature of this descriptor is a belief that you are despised by the people in power in our society, that the elites hate us. And Donald Trump was the master and continues to be so successful at spreading this message. I'm just standing between them and you. When they persecute me, it's because they want to persecute you. And you show in the film deep threads of where that came from. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. And I would love for you to talk about how you thought about the fact that there are people in this film who will take the existence of the film as proof that the elites hate us. And how is that kind of the reinforcing heads-we-win-tails-you-lose nature of this movement on your mind as you made it?
Rob Reiner [00:14:17] Well, that's a really good question, but I would urge people who are watching the film to see that the predominant voices in the film are devout Christian conservatives who are talking specifically about the danger of Christian nationalism to Christianity itself. Not just to the country and to democracy, but to Christianity itself. So, if anything, are they going to call an elite? Are they going to call David French or Phil Fisher? A number of the people we have in the film, these are not elites. These are deep, devout Christian leaders, Christian thinkers. And they're the ones that are telling the story. We give them a platform to tell the story, and it's like, I think you said, the January 6th Committee had all Republicans. We have all of the people who are respected in the community talking about this. So you can say it's elites because you can point to me, I'm a liberal from Hollywood or whatever. I don't think Dan is-- he's not as much of a lib tart as I am, as they say. But we're not the platform. We're giving voice to the people who are respected in the Christian community.
Dan Partland [00:15:59] Yeah. I mean, the evidence of how sensitive the subject matter comes out right from the day we released the trailer. Really we were just releasing the trailer. We wanted to have heard about the film a little bit, but the firestorm of people on what I would think of this rather extreme forms of the Christian right, coming out denouncing the film as attack on Christianity. Wow. That really takes a persecution complex, I think, to denounce a film that you haven't seen for being a condemnation of Christianity, because I know if you'd seen it you wouldn't have said that. But, yeah, I think people have to see the film and think about the ideas that are in there. You're raising a sort of peripheral question about other parts of the political identity that predominates Christian nationalism. I think there's plenty of people who are angry at elites who are not Christian nationalists. There's a lot of overlap, but it's not the same thing. People are allowed to be angry at elites. If they're angry at elites, they feel like the poor have been left behind by the power structure. I think that's, that's a fair thing for society to talk about. But to frame the battle as between the godly and the godless, that has nothing to do with what's going on in our politics right now. It's really a way just of manipulating an electorate.
Sarah [00:17:26] Well, and I think that manipulation is key there, because I think the moment for me where I thought, oh, wow, you can't be respected enough inside the Christian community for them not to come for you should you step on the wrong toes, is when they went after Beth Moore. I don't think there was anybody that was more sacred than Beth Moore. And to watch the abuse she took and the vitriol, I think that illustrates the point, which is it's not about faith or Christianity. I thought that one of the most powerful points you make is that you have to be both. You have to have a Christian nation where Christians are persecuted all the time. Those two points seem to be in conflict with one another. It's like you have to be the hero and the victim. That's like the central promise of this particular political ideology. And that's tough. I mean, Donald Trump, he's both picked on by everyone but the only one that can fix anything. That's just a weird argument. And I think to put that in front of people and say do you see how they're making you mad all the time so that they can be the ones that will fix it, but only if you send that donation. And right now I think the analogies to televangelists is that prey on people's fears, prey on people's insecurities and tell them I'm the only one, this is the only option. Please send your dollars now. When you lay it out like that and you can see people who have dedicated their lives-- even if you think that you're mad and you feel like they don't understand. You can't argue that someone like Russell Moore or Dave French hasn't dedicated-- or William Barber, who's a progressive Christian, but a Christian figure just the same, haven't dedicated their lives to this religion. It's hard. But I think it's heartbreaking and it's hard to to break because it's a form of brainwashing. It's a manipulation to the level of brainwashing. I think about David French. I don't think he said this in your-- or maybe he does say it in the film where he says, the woman came up to me and says, I just don't understand why you don't like him. And he's like, because he lies. And she's like, what are you talking about? He doesn't lie. It's just that level until you can really hear people who are steeped in the community say, like, it felt like I was on a different planet from this place I've lived my whole life as a Christian. It's just hard to comprehend.
Rob Reiner [00:19:54] Yeah. And what did the people say? How did they argue, questioning Beth Moore or Russell Moore's devotion to their faith? What are they saying? That they don't believe that they're honest in their devotion to their faith?
Sarah [00:20:12] I think it's the us-them. You're on the outside, Nancy. That's all it matters. So you're on the outside. You're not us anymore. You're them. That's it. That's all we need to know.
Dan Partland [00:20:20] And the vitriolic level of the discourse, as we say at the debate online and stuff, it's shameful. Of course, I just have to give props to all the people who gave us interviews. I was very honored to have people of that caliber wanting to speak up and entrusting us with their words to make sure we were telling this story, doing this story justice. I think that the additional tragedy of it is that it is those Christian conservative voices, those who have most prominence in the community, who are taking the most abuse.
Sarah [00:20:57] Yes.
Dan Partland [00:20:58] Nobody care. Reverend Barber is not taking any abuse online. Nobody is surprised to hear what he's saying. But the degree of vitriol that the Christian conservatives in the film have gotten is just terrible. And it's part of the phenomenon. It's part of the phenomenon to make very clear where the battle lines are and that if [inaudible] battle line, you will lose this thing.
Sarah [00:21:21] It's a threat.
Dan Partland [00:21:24] It's a threat.
[00:21:24] Music Interlude.
Beth [00:21:34] January 6th features some in the film. It's not entirely about January 6th, but you see footage and there's a discussion of what motivated it and ties to Scripture. We're talking at a time when we're seeing this continual evolution of what we make in terms of meaning of that day. And now we don't have January 6th prisoners. We have January 6th hostages. And you in the film, touching on this concern that we're going to continue to change the meaning of that event. So I wonder what your hope is as people see the film and think specifically about January 6th, what is your call to action for the viewer?
Rob Reiner [00:22:15] Well, the call to action is to see what could ultimately unfold if we allow a certain ideology, which basically is my way or the highway and will resort to violence to get our way; what can happen to the whole country if this happens? I mean, January 6th, that happened three years ago. And what we're seeing now is not the dissolution of that movement, but the hardening of that movement. So what it portends is something much worse if they don't get their way. And so what we're hoping with the film is to shine a light on this and say, is this a path we want to go down? I mean, is that what we want to do? Or do we want to try to preserve this wonderful 248 year (now 249 year) experiment in self-rule, where we allow everyone to have a voice and where we allow everyone to pray the way they want to and believe in what they want to. So it's a call. It's a cautionary tale of what could happen if we don't start turning in the right direction.
Dan Partland [00:23:52] The history of January 6th is not settled yet. It's not fully written. And it's moving. And I think people are coming to different conclusions about it. I think that on the more pro insurrectionist side of the debate, look, I think I think it was the-- there's a graph in the film based on very good data that shows that in the initial aftermath of January 6th, most of America was really horrified by it. And by a year out, by six months out, it had deteriorated. And by a year out, it was maybe only half of America was still really horrified by it. I'm pretty sure that in terms of the political rhetoric, I think that people on the MAGA right will be recasting them not as insurrectionists but as freedom fighters. Before we're one more year into this, I'm sure they're going to be called freedom fighters.
Rob Reiner [00:24:50] They're already doing it. You've got Elise Stefanik coming on Meet the Press saying they're hostages. This is a woman who said his is one of the worst days in the history of our country. And all these people are saying that now. They're saying they're hostages and they're mirroring what Trump says. That's scary stuff. That's scary stuff because a year of that disinformation can harden things even further, and that's the fear. And hopefully this film will start making people think about that.
Dan Partland [00:25:24] I think a lot of people wanted to have a very measured and sober reaction to January 6th at the time, and I think that's good and healthy. I think that in the initial telling the story, I don't think it was told as a Christian nationalist driven uprising. But I think that over time, as people have been able to really dig in, I think that that framing is really accurate. Talk about in the film that it's not that every person there was a Christian nationalist or that they wanted to have biblical verses written into American law or anything like that, it's that it provided the framework. It provided the permission structure that this is your country, you're losing your country, and you have to fight to take it back. Where did they get the idea that they're losing their country? As you pointed out earlier, there's simply no evidence to that. There are things that are going away in America, some that people bemoan and some that are good to be going away. But Christians are not losing their country. Christianity is on the decline because the Society is secularizing, but not because there's legal pressure to contain Christianity.
Sarah [00:26:41] I just think part of what's important, as those positions are shifting and hardening, is to say this is not about some Republicans who want less government, and you agree with them on some pieces of less government. And so maybe they're not that terrible. This is people who want a Christian theocracy. And I think the overturning of Roe v Wade and the change in abortion laws can go to that point. These people hold extreme positions. You have to understand the extreme nature of these positions just because that they are often backed up by Republican, because it's this cycle where Republican officeholders sort of back them up and that moderates the position and I think the eyes of the American populace, which is probably why they're doing it.
Rob Reiner [00:27:27] You said something very important just now. You said that one of the ideologies of the Republican Party is less government. And that's true. It's been that way for a long time. There cannot be more government than an authoritarian government
Sarah [00:27:46] Exactly. It's like dress up. But I think that's what people-- they're kind of versed. There's some stereotypes, there's some filtering of information going on there. And they're saying, well, if Elise Stefanik or whatever-- they don't know who Elise Stefanik is. But you're sort of not steeped in American politics, pays attention when it's time to or around the presidential election. They tell themselves that, well, both sides are kind of bad. They're both full of it. But this side likes less taxes and really wants to pare down the size of the American government. So these people might not be as bad as the other side's making it out to be until you can really put in front of them I think like in a way like this. Like, no, these are people who do not believe in the separation of church and state. These are people that want to pass religious laws and either expel, forcibly or otherwise, people who do not share this religion in the United States of America. It's like you have to say it so plainly, like, this is an extreme position. This is not Tammy Faye Bakker. This is a whole different beast out there.
Rob Reiner [00:28:48] They've got a fellow Mike Johnson who's now the speaker of the House who is a professed Christian who will say that the Bible is what you should base all the government laws on. He's the second in line to the president of the United States right now.
Dan Partland [00:29:12] Let's broaden it a little bit. Yes, the leadership of this movement are religious extremists I think would be very comfortable with a lot of the theocratic measures that you're talking about. But by no stretch does that represent most of who is influenced by Christian nationalism. We have to take a step and understand not just what it is, but also that it's not an on off switch. It's levels. It's water. It's hard to really pin down. It's a current in the culture that informs all kinds of decisions. And so the bigger population and the one that I'm more concerned about (because the extremists by their nature are a limited number) are people who are unwittingly subscribing to these values because they're being told in their Christian community, in their church, in their media silo, they're being told again and again that following this particular list of political deliverables is a Christian thing to do. And most people aren't digging into it that hard. They're not digging into it that hard. If everybody who is in my community and my pastor is telling me this, then I want to do that, and I want to come out in favor of my team. I want to do the Christian thing because it feels right spiritually and because I believe that that's good for America. So the question is really about how do we reach those people, not the extremist, the leadership. I mean, they're problematic, no question. But there's this whole other layer of how it's reverberating out around the country that is bringing in a lot of people who, frankly, are unwitting good, decent Americans who don't realize that they've signed up for this.
Beth [00:30:59] For my personal goals for 2024 is to actively value pluralism.
Dan Partland [00:31:04] Amen.
Beth [00:31:05] Because I worry that that's kind of at the root of it. I think there have been times when I've done a poor job of actively valuing pluralism. And I thought about this watching the film because I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, but much of what is being described here is unrecognizable to me. Even the symbolism, even some of the stories. I don't think about the march on the Wall of Jericho. It is not the brand of Christian that I am. And I think it's really hard especially if you're active in a church community, especially if you are really committed to your faith. It's kind of hard to remember that there's pluralism within Christianity. And I think the film does such a nice job showcasing that. Doctor Barber and David French are very different flavors of Christianity and both very different flavors from some of the pastors that you show talking to their congregations about praying for Donald Trump. So I just wonder if you think about that theme of pluralism, what it calls to mind for you and how, as creators, you want to bring more people to that spirit of pluralism?
Rob Reiner [00:32:16] I read a book years ago called The Home Planet. And in the book, it was all about these different astronauts from different countries, from America, from the Soviet Union when there was still a Soviet Union, from India, China, Scandinavia, all these different astronauts that went up into space. And when they got up there, they all had the same kind of experience. They first were looking for where their countries were. They looked at the earth and they were finding their countries. Then, after a while, they started realizing, wait a minute, we all live on that little blue marble. There's not countries. We're all part of this human race that lives on this little blue marble. And they started seeing those divisions being eradicated, and they realize that we are all one. We're all God's people. We're all in this one place. And I thought that was interesting because here is what we're talking about. You're talking about pluralism, which is out of the many, one. That we're all connected, that we're all part of the same human race. And we shouldn't be killing somebody because they maybe believe something different than what we believe. We're all searching for, spirituality, love, whatever, but we all want to be feeling like we're connected to everybody. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Not if you don't do what I tell you, I'm going to kill you. That's not pluralism. Pluralism is we all accept the fact that we're all part of the human race. And so, that's hopefully what the film espouses. And hopefully people will take that away with them.
Beth [00:34:25] Well, and I thought it ended on such a positive note because I think it's true of patriotism and I definitely think it's true for vision. It is easy to point out the holes and to raise the alarms. I mean, not easy, but easier. We are negatively biased creatures. We are easy to point out what's dangerous and wrong. I mean, that's the risk of this movement, right? The reason you're willing to kill someone who disagrees with you is because somebody told you they're a threat to you.
Rob Reiner [00:35:00] What you're saying is true, though. It's harder to spread the positive part of it. But if you look at the horror of Christianity, Jesus who talks about loving thy neighbor as thyself, who talks about doing unto others, that's a wonderful thing to be able to say. You take from that Christian belief. That's the thing to spread. And that's a very positive thing that is expressed at the end of the film. And so what we're saying is within Christianity is a tremendous hope for all of us.
Sarah [00:35:40] Well, and I just think that's so beautiful not just with the teachings of Christ, but hearing William Barber say, Christians have played a positive role in American history. It doesn't have to be all criticism and war.
Rob Reiner [00:35:56] The movement.
Sarah [00:35:57] Yes, in the civil rights movement and moments where people of faith were on the front line saying this far and no further. And I think that that's really powerful and really important to give people, like I said, that sort of positive vision to say this is the problems but it doesn't mean that the solutions are not also within us.
Dan Partland [00:36:17] And we all have to actually live it. I mean, pluralism is America's gift to the world. We are a model of how to do it well. And so it's particularly sad when we are stumbling to deal with our pluralism because you can't unscramble beyond that. The United States is a pluralistic country, and it was from the very beginning. That's why we had to deal with it. But we should be an example to the world of how we can do that. And I think that in terms of the positive vision, the great Christian teaching is not just to love your neighbors but also to love your enemies. I think that's the applicable idea. Unfortunately, for this moment of polarization, where everyone is so angry at each other, is we're going to have to all really live it. We're going to have to dig deep and understand our shared humanity. We're going to have to forgive a lot people who did a lot of things that we found unconscionable. I do think some of the way forward, we do have to name it. We have to name what's going on so that people can see it and so that people can talk about it. But then I think we also have to forgive. We're going to have to forgive each other. We're going to have to forgive each other for a lot of stuff. So let's not focus on being angry at somebody who got swept up in this wave of Christian nationalism because it's a social phenomenon. And it's happening not just in the United States; it's happening around the world as well. There are a lot of people that are swept up in it, but we have to help get them back. Get them back reconnected to our shared humanity. Get them back to their Christian ideals and get them back to their Americanness (sic). Their Americanness which is inseparable from that pluralism that you're talking about.
Sarah [00:38:10] Well, thank you. I think this film will be an incredibly important step in that process, will hopefully move us all forward. And just thank you for making it. Thank you for coming on our show to talk about it.
Rob Reiner [00:38:20] Yeah. I just want to say, I'm really grateful for this conversation with you guys. You're so smart and you have such great insight and great questions and everything, and this was just an absolute pleasure to talk to you guys.
Sarah [00:38:35] Thank you.
Beth [00:38:36] What an honor. Thank you so much.
Sarah [00:38:37] Thank you.
Dan Partland [00:38:37] Thank you for having us.
[00:38:38] Music Interlude.
Sarah [00:38:49] We have decided to test the outer bounds of your love for us, and see how closely we can creep up to the line of getting canceled here today, Beth.
Beth [00:38:58] Everybody take a deep breath. The subject is bed making.
Sarah [00:39:05] Okay. Well, let me just let me dive right off into the controversy. Because here's how we started this conversation. I was mad at my child because he won't put his laundry away. And I said, I'm going to tell him the truth. You don't like Jordan Peterson and his ilk, but the one thing they do get right is the advice just get up and make your bed. Just do the thing. Do the chore. Get it over with. Make your bed. Make your bed.
Beth [00:39:35] And I said I don't have any patience for not making your bed every morning.
Sarah [00:39:40] Beth has so much patience for people. I mean, if I said it, people be like, oh, here comes Sarah game with her rules about clothing and her desire for everyone to make their bed. She's an Enneagram one, but you're in any room two and you feel the same way. Which means we're right, obviously.
Beth [00:39:53] I think that's true.
Sarah [00:39:53] I think that's what that means.
Beth [00:39:55] I have so few things where I'm like, there's one way to be here. I cannot fathom not making my bed ever, for any reason. The only time I do not make my bed is because I'm going to wash my sheets. And that means I'm going to really make it later than make it with the intensity and precision of a high end hotel. I want the bed made, always and forever. I just feel like it is a love note from morning me to evening me.
Sarah [00:40:30] Yes. Okay, I have two things here. First of all, I actually thought about this morning when I was making my bed because last night we had a really hard night with Felix. I don't know what happened. He was very anxious. He never does this. He couldn't go to sleep. And he ended up sleeping in our bed, which is not a pleasant situation because we have a split king. So there is a hole in the middle of the bed. I did not sleep well. I slept so terribly, and as I was making the bed I thought, this is why you make your bed, especially after a tough night, because you're like releasing that. I'm like brushing that away as opposed to if I got in the bed tonight with the blankets all messed up from when he was there and his little lovey. And so then I'm getting in the bed with the memory of this terrible night from before, as opposed to like making the bed, wiping it clean, erasing the night, erasing the day. It's a fresh start, right?
Beth [00:41:18] Absolutely. You are saying Beth and Chad of 10 p.m.. I care about you, and I want you to be really happy. 10 p.m. [inaudible] in bed earlier than that. But the time when we might get to sleep. I care about you. I want you to have your best sleep available tonight. And I'm giving you the footing. You are also saying all day, Beth and Chad, when you walk by this room, you're going to feel like people who have their stuff together. And that's important. You need to feel like people who have their stuff together, and it's just a little anchor. You just get up and you do it. You move your body for a second, you touch some things. You're just being a person in the world as soon as you get up. I don't understand what it must be like to go through the day with the sheets and the blanket just however.
Sarah [00:42:11] It's chaos [inaudible] is what we're telling y'all. Well, and listen, my master bedroom is on the ground floor of my house. You see it. Unless I closed the door, as you walk through my front door into my house, my bedroom is right there. I keep it like that so people come over like I don't have to worry about cleaning up. Everything is mostly cleaned up. And even if nobody comes over, which they don't for days and days at a time, I like to walk by and see that. Okay, here's my second question from before. When you wash your sheets and you've made the bed with hotel precision, is it important to you to have showered and have clean pajamas on?
Beth [00:42:48] Of course, it is.
Sarah [00:42:50] Okay, good. Okay, so I'm not the only one.
Beth [00:42:52] No. We're bringing our best selves to the bed. It's a.
Sarah [00:42:55] It's a fresh slate. It's a clean slate.
Beth [00:42:59] That's right.
[00:43:00] We are doing new pajamas. We're doing a shower. One time, Nickolas tried to get in the newly made bed from the clean sheets after working out, and I was like, "Do you want to stay married to me? Go shower or we cannot continue on as we have for the previous 20 years."
Beth [00:43:18] The sheets are clean. It is a treat. We got to indulge in the full treat.
Sarah [00:43:23] It's a new day. It's a new day. Now, how often do you wash your sheets?
Beth [00:43:28] I try to do it once a week. I like clean sheets.
Sarah [00:43:31] Okay, once week. That's me. I'm not Oprah. I know Oprah likes to try to justify the fact that she has somebody might change her sheets every night. And I love her and I don't find fault in her for many things, but that's crazy.
Beth [00:43:41] I think so too. I don't want to be over the top about this, but I want new sheets about once a week. What I really do not want is a kid sitting on my bed after I've made it. I hate that I'm like, do you not even care about my happiness?
Sarah [00:43:58] Do you think about me at all? Well, that's how my conversation with Griffin started when he was not making his bed and putting his laundry. He loves when I do this. I'll be like, is your bed made? And if it is, I'll be like, I knew you loved me. And he's like, mom. And if it isn't, I'm like, you don't love me. Now, obviously I'm being hyperbolic. Follow me for more parenting tips when you tell your children if they don't make your bed, they don't love you.
Beth [00:44:17] Well, I will walk by the girls rooms on the weekend and say you haven't made your bed. And they're like, it's not a school day. And I'm like, are you going to sleep tonight?
Sarah [00:44:25] What does that have to do with it?
Beth [00:44:26] You have to make your bed.
Sarah [00:44:27] Now I will say this. I will say this to our conversation on our previous Outside of Politics where we talked about breaking the rules. There are some Saturdays when I'm really trying to break the hold of should in my head, because I should all over myself. I should do this, I should do this, I should do this. While on some Saturdays, Beth, I will confess to leaving my bed unmade. I have to try. It's almost like you should leave it unmade as a practice. But I have to work at it. I have to walk by and be like, no, just leave it. It's a Saturday. Every once in a while, like once a month, you can relax and leave the bed unmade. And I do think it is a helpful mental exercise, but I have to work at it.
Beth [00:45:07] I'm very skeptical of this. Because I love Beth and Chad on Saturday night too. You know what I mean? This is just one of those things. I don't feel pressure. No one's grading me about this. My bed is upstairs. I could shut the door of my bedroom and not think about it. I like to have my bed made. I'm happier when my bed is made.
Sarah [00:45:27] I do. It just to turn back the bed. Yes, to turn back the sheets. On controversial topic surrounding beds, how many throw pillows do you have?
Beth [00:45:37] So we have a king bed and we have six regular pillows across the bed. Three groups of two.
Sarah [00:45:48] Three groups of two. Why do you do three groups of two? Like, the two you sleep on...
Beth [00:45:53] And then two in the middle that we sort of share. And then the two Chad sleeps on. So three groups of two pillows.
Sarah [00:45:59] Okay. Oh, I see what you're saying.
Beth [00:46:01] Six across the bed. Okay. And then in front of those I have three European. Like the big rectangular.
Sarah [00:46:08] Yes.
Beth [00:46:09] Sort of cover the pillars that we actually sleep on.
Sarah [00:46:11] Okay, so between you, you use three pillows every night.
Beth [00:46:15] Yes.
Beth [00:46:16] Okay. That helps. So then I have the three, the pretty pillows.
Sarah [00:46:23] Yes. So we're up to nine.
Beth [00:46:27] And then I have a rectangular decorative pillow in front of those, so 10. Then I did for Father's Day purchase this very, very long pillow that is sort of triangular in shape. It's supposed to be a, like, sit in bed and read pillow.
Sarah [00:46:47] You have a Tempur-Pedic. Why do you need that?
Beth [00:46:50] Well, I just thought it looked comfy. I thought Chad might enjoy it. He likes to watch baseball in bed. I thought it might be really helpful. So what I have been doing-- it's big. It's really, really big and long. So I've been putting it in front of the pillows we sleep on and then putting my pretty pillows in front of it. So 11 is the total number of pillows on my bed.
Sarah [00:47:09] I can't wait for Nicholas Holland to listen to this, because he will never say a bad word about you or any of your choices. And you have more pillows than we do, which I get harassed about all the time.
Beth [00:47:18] Well, you're welcome.
Sarah [00:47:20] Yeah. Thank you for this. This is a real gift you've given me. I only sleep on one pillow. He sleeps on one pillow. I have one kind of curl up pillow. Did you see the Holderness video about Kim's nighttime routine?
Beth [00:47:31] No.
[00:47:33] Don't watch it. You'll feel attacked. I texted them and said we are now sworn enemies. We're done. This is was a personal attack on me. It's hilarious. It's so accurate. And he's, like, this is my cuddle pillow. This is my prop. This is my knee pillow. I'm like, how dare you, sir? So I have two, he has one. Then I have three Europeans, then I have two king size pillows with pretty shams on them. And then one lumbar throw pillow. So that's nine.
Beth [00:48:02] That seems totally reasonable.
Sarah [00:48:05] Every time Nicholas is like, why do we have all these damn pillows? If you would like to go to Instagram, you could fill your day watching reels about husbands and throw pillows.
Beth [00:48:13] Chad thinks the pillows are silly too. And I don't care because I like them. Listen, I feel the same way about the pillows on the couch downstairs as I feel about the bed being made. I want the pillows sitting in their right positions. If no one is sitting on that couch, I just want them to go back to where they belong. If you're sitting on the couch, you do whatever you damn well please with the pillows. I want you to be comfortable and happy and relaxed. Just put them back.
Sarah [00:48:36] Put them back. Why can't they put them back? They never put them back, ever.
Beth [00:48:40] They can't. It's like they're physically incapable of putting them back.
Sarah [00:48:44] Listen, you know what I did the other day? Back to the the neatness and the clothing. I brought every male in my house into the room. I said, "Come here everybody, from 44 to eight, and stand in front of me and watch me do this." I took a new pair of pants of Griffin's, I pulled off the tag, and I threw it in the trash can. I was like, this is where they go. When you get a new piece of clothing, which what a gift, what a blessing to you.
Beth [00:49:13] How nice.
Sarah [00:49:14] That someone has purchased you this beautiful new piece of clothing. Please remove the tag and then throw it in the trash can. And I made everybody practice doing it, including Nicholas who struggles the most with this.
Beth [00:49:25] Did you also instruct them that the little plastic piece that the tag is attached to does go in the trash as well.
Sarah [00:49:33] It's also trash.
Beth [00:49:34] Is not required to leave the little piece of plastic right in the middle of a carpeted floor for someone to step on.
Sarah [00:49:42] Listen, if you want to see a Sarah on a rampage, throw a piece of trash on the floor of my house and see what happens. My house is not a trash can. I spend an enormous amount of money, mental energy, and physical energy on my house and I love it. I love this house. So when you like, for example, should I find a banana peel behind my couch? I'm going to come unglued. I'm going to come unglued.
Beth [00:50:06] Now, a unique problem to having only girls are the elastic hair bands.
Sarah [00:50:12] Oh, I believe that.
Beth [00:50:14] I'm interested in what kind of system you would devise if you were living among the hair bands, because they are everywhere, all the time, in all the places. It's a sea of hair bands out here.
Sarah [00:50:29] Okay. Could we develop a practice where we put the hair band on our wrist?
Beth [00:50:33] Well, Jane does that. Jane, in fact, always has about four on her wrist, two on each side. I have put a glass jar in a kitchen cabinet and said, you know what, if you're in the kitchen and you need a hairband, you can get one from here and you may deposit any hair bands back in here. I don't want to find them anywhere else. I have many stations for the hair bands and still they're just everywhere.
Sarah [00:50:55] I like that system. I believe in our listeners. I bet there is a listener out there who has devised a hair tie solution. I'm looking forward to hearing that. I hope they still love us. I hope we keep our listeners who don't make their bed. We still love you. We do want to help you, but we still love you.
Beth [00:51:12] I love you enough that I want you to climb into a bed that's made every night because it feels so good. That's it. There are some things where I feel like you do need rebellion, and you need to walk back from should. Many of them.
Sarah [00:51:23] Yes.
Beth [00:51:24] But this, to me, is just a gift to yourself.
Sarah [00:51:27] It's so easy. Takes like two minutes.
Beth [00:51:30] You can do it.
Sarah [00:51:32] And there's studies, there's, like, actual evidence that this is really, really good for you. I think there's military studies and stuff.
Beth [00:51:41] I just would like to invite you, if you are a non bed maker, to say for a week I'm going to make my bed every day and just do my own personal study and see if this feels like a gift to myself. And if it doesn't, you can ignore me and live your best unmade bed life and I will not judge you for it. I just believe it will be a gift to you.
Sarah [00:52:00] No, I will say this, we are both morning people and this might break down among the morning birds and the night owls. You know what I'm saying? If you are not morning person, that could be a tough one. That could be a tough one, I don't know. She's skeptical. Your face right now says, no, it's still good for you.
Beth [00:52:19] I just feel that whenever you're going to bed and getting up, this is a good practice. I can make space for lots of different ways of being. I truly do not understand not making the bed.
Sarah [00:52:31] Just not this one. I'm excited to have found one. My list of things about this is super, super long, but I'm excited to find a small one on yours. This is exciting and I can't wait to hear from everybody about this.
Beth [00:52:44] Thank you so much to both Rob and Dan for sharing their work with us. Thank you to all of you for joining us today. We will be back with you next Wednesday after the Presidents Day holiday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.
[00:53:32] Music Interlude
Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.
Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.
Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.
Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family.
Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.