Overconsumption

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Overconsumption

  • Outside of Politics: Microtrends for 2025

Episode Resources

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OVERCONSUMPTION AND TRENDS

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:00:29] Thank you so much for being with us today. Earlier this fall, we talked briefly about the idea of overconsumption. And the response we got from all of you was immense. It was so clear to us that there is a lot more that you all want to hear about this topic. And so that's what today's show is all about. We have some more conversations planned for the new year, but here in the midst of a massive season of consumption, we wanted to get at the root of the issue for each of us personally. What drives us to overconsume? What wears this out about it? How is it affecting our personal lives? We're guessing a lot of you are in the same place and hope this conversation between the two of us today makes you feel a little less alone in this struggle. At the end of the show. Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about some micro trends that they say are coming for all of us in 2025 and how we feel about those.  

Beth [00:01:19] Before we begin our conversation about overconsumption in this season of consuming; with the appropriate amount of irony, we want to talk to you about gift giving for the Pantsuit Politics fan in your life. Mostly what we want to invite you to do is give a gift to our Substack because the quality of conversations taking place over there continue to amaze and delight us. 

Sarah [00:01:38] And it will not fill a single drawer closet for what it's worth.  

Beth [00:01:41] That's right. It's not stuff; it is just an invitation to a space of really thoughtful people. And I think Sarah and I do some of our very best work there and we would love for you to be part of that work, too. And bonus, it's a wonderful last minute gift because in seconds, instantly you can have a gift to give to someone else in your life. So we would love for you to do that. And thank you to all of you who support our work in that particular way.  

Sarah [00:02:04] Up next. Let's talk about consumption. Beth, in a way, I feel like this is a conversation we're always having. We're always talking about how the role that our current society most often asks us to play is consumer. We've talked about it with our civic culture. How often when we participate in institutions like public education or the church, we act like consumers. We have talked about it with the review culture and how everywhere we go, everything we do, we're being asked what are your thoughts? What are your views? Again, asking us to occupy the space of consumer. And where I have really noticed it the most recently, and this makes sense based on all the trajectories we know about our economy, is that consumption has become so easy online. That so much of the online space is constantly asking me to consume. This will solve your problem. Do you want this? And, of course, the main space I'm talking about because I am a 43 year old American female, Instagram and Amazon because I feel like they go together now. I feel like they are two sides of the same consumption coin. That's where my like, yeah, what is happening with regards to just the consumption of it all?  

Beth [00:03:55] I think that a part of the Instagram Amazon pipeline that I've started to see more clearly is the frictionless subtleness of it, that it's so easy to watch. Kind of an interesting meal about how this woman makes dinner for her family of 11 or whatever and seamlessly connect to the bowl or the kitchen appliance or whatever is being featured in that little story about her life. And that frictionless has led me to stray very far from Instagram lately. I check my DMs once a day now. And I looked to see how long it takes me to scroll down to a person I actually know. And I noticed this week that I had to go about 20 posts deep to get to a person that I actually know. And I thought, yeah, that tells me what this is. This is not social media anymore. Now it's something different. It's a mall and it's mostly an Amazon mall. And this has become way too easy. Sometimes I buy things on Amazon without thinking about what they cost. I don't even look at what they cost. It's just so easy. I'm like David Rose, who doesn't understand that his credit card has to be paid? I think about that scene all the time because that's how-- especially with Apple wallet, everything is just easier and easier. My payment method is saved everywhere and I'm just clicking too much and I have got to have some kind of intervention with myself.  

Sarah [00:05:23] Yeah, it's like the frictionless of it perpetuated the growth and it got so big and so ubiquitous it got weird. I think the first time I thought about this show and talking about this is when I would hit these very, very weird reels. One in particular stands out of my mind where the woman was doing themed baths. You know where there was that moment on Instagram where people were like doing period baths and then it was a joke? And I was in the comments because I think a big turning point was when it became comment shop and I'll send you the link to this product. That was like a huge moment I feel like when Instagram really became about consumption. Because you could get it right into your DMs, which all of us are still trying to check because that was where we are in conversation with the people we know, except for they were like, how do we get in there too?  

[00:06:16] And so they did that and there was a comment that said this is a bot; this is created content. Look, they're going to like in response to this comment with thanks for shopping because I use the right word and like it was a screed against this type of content. And exactly what happened. The person rolled in in a reply and said, thanks for coming to my page. You could just tell it's all automated. And this person was screaming like, see what's going on? And I thought, my God, what is this? And then you go back and it's the same bathroom. Watch me stock my kid’s bathroom. It was a boy’s bathroom. Same bathroom. Next bathroom, watch me have my relaxing period bath. Same bathroom. It was so weird. I felt like I was in the upside down and I thought, what's going on? What is going on here? And even the creators I like, I like their style, I like their static and I would give in and I would buy the piece of clothing on Amazon. I never liked them.  

[00:07:20] They'd show up and they were cheap. And maybe I would get some comments and people would be like that's a pretty dress. But it was a crappy dress. It's made badly. It's cheap material. I wouldn't feel good about wearing it. You know what I mean? And then I just got to the point where I had so many clothes, which is true. I'm watching creators. Like I could not wear this. I could not wear all the things that's in a reel where she's doing six outfits. How many people need six new outfits in a month to have a place to wear six new outfits. Even if you're going to work every day. You know what I mean? Like, how much is your closet going to hold? Also I was feeling alarm bells about the halls where they would just pile a mountain of Amazon packages in front of them and start opening them and opening. And I'm like what's going on here? Like, what is happening? It's like you can see almost like a ripple in, like a glitch, you get a glitch where you're like, whoa. It's so seamless and it's so frictionless and you get a little glitch where you're like, no, something's happening here. But it's hard to see those, recognize those, to lean in them enough that they can disrupt the frictionless momentum of this consumption model.  

Beth [00:08:37] And I want to say I'm not mad at anybody inside the system. The creators who are doing this work, I get it.  

Sarah [00:08:44] I think I might be so mad at people at the top of Instagram and top of Amazon.  

Beth [00:08:48] That's fair. But the creator doing the Amazon haul, I get how you get there. So it's not like this is not a personal thing. I'm just seeing more and more the effects in my life. So you sent me a piece about an influencer lawsuit. I think we briefly referenced this in our last episode where one person who is an Amazon affiliate is suing another person and saying you've copied my vibe. You are you are patterning everything you make after how I make it. And somehow that infringes a copyright that I have in my creative work. And I was reading about them and their style and the kind of spaces they create to make these videos, and I realized you talking about seeing more and more pieces of it. I use YouTube like 95% for exercise. That's all I watch on YouTube are exercise videos. And I have found this woman whose cardio I really like. It's about the length of time I have in the morning. It's about the level I want to be at. She's fantastic. But after I read your article, I looked at her space and I thought, I bet if I go to her Instagram she is an Amazon affiliate because it has exactly that same aesthetic everywhere.  

[00:10:03] And when you see it crossing channels that way, you're right, it's like seeing the Matrix. Once you realize what's going on here, it's like, well, she also gets the email from Amazon and the featured products and knows that you put them against kind of a white background so the product really pops. It's disorienting. I think that's the best way I know how to describe it. I feel really disoriented now. That's why I really the only influencer that I consistently go back to check out is Authentically Emily that we know because we know her. And everything I've bought that she's recommended I have liked. And I know this is like a real human being who uses the clothes that she's showing us and I have a trust there. So maybe I'm just in that way riding sort of a micro influencer trend, but that feels really healthy to me because I know there's an honesty about what she's putting out. And it's not just another person getting the Amazon spreadsheet and pushing the products that they've focused you and I on. 

Sarah [00:10:58] Well, and there's such a sneakiness on retail situation here, right? We want the influencers because everything's gotten so big that you feel like you want a personal recommendation to swim through the bigness of the actual economy. And those influencers feed the bigness of the economy. I follow a lot of anti-influencer influencers. I think they're really interesting. I follow a lot of thrifting and consignment influencers who are really pushing people to explore their own style because that's the thing that I really wanted to break out of. I would always say this about home decorating. I say this about weddings, too. I don't want to go to a wedding; I don't want to see your closet; I don't want to go to your house and the only thing I learn from you is that you have a lot of money to spend. That's not interesting to me. There's nothing wrong with it. I don't think you're a bad person, but that's not aesthetically interesting to me. All that it tells me is that you have a lot of money to spend. It doesn't tell me anything about you. It doesn't tell me anything about what you're interested in or what makes you smile or what makes you shine. That to me is less interesting.  

[00:12:06] And so I really try to find people like that. But I think there's something, too, about the review culture of it all. You can't trust Amazon reviews. They're so wacky. But you need something to shovel through all the results. Wirecutter has gone the same way. Wirecutter is not a place-- I mean, I bought some remotes from Wirecutter that I'm still mad about. They were so expensive and they are complete pieces of shit. I think that that's the struggle too. It's like there's this bigness we're all trying to swim through. We need some buoys. But the buoys we don't know what's keeping them afloat. They're just really, really hard. And I think the thing I'm coming to more and more is I just don't need it. Maybe I just don't need any of the things. I don't need all the things all the time. That looks like it will solve a problem for me.  

Beth [00:12:57] So one of the places I really bump up against do I need it or not, is with school. School spirit weeks. My kids want to participate. I want them to participate. I want there to be a sense of community at school. I want them to have a good time. But next week is such and such a day and it is so frictionless to just order whatever we need for such and such day that I do it. Or the classroom store needs 40 non-candy whatever and I can easily buy a bunch of fidget toys in bulk or whatever on Amazon to help the classroom. And I want to do those things and I have a hard time creating my own speedbump of is this really how I want to contribute? Is this the best way I contribute? How can I be supportive or participatory without adding stuff to the equation?  

Sarah [00:13:48] Well, I did take a radical solution which was to cancel our Amazon Prime to the Amazon of it all, which is definitely, I think, the undercurrent of a lot of this foundation we all stand on. And I deleted the Amazon app off my phone. I find that so much of the consumption as you're talking about social media and all this, it's the same speed bumps that work for anything because they're related. I think that with kids it is such a bummer, but I think it's so appealing. You know what I articulated to my massage therapist and I hadn't said it out loud? She was talking about a stroller that her sister bought. And I was like, I really miss baby gear. I loved baby gear. Because it is a phase of life in which a product can solve a problem. Not always, but often. There ain't a product I can buy that's going to solve my problems now. You know what I mean? With teenagers and middle schoolers and adolescents. I guess some, but not very many.  

[00:14:51] And so there's always that allure of there are so few problems that you can just throw money at. So why wouldn't you when you could? You know what I mean? It's almost like we're making ourselves feel better by presenting, finding problems. That's what it feels like so much when I'm on Instagram and social media and thinking about the stuff. All of a sudden a product's presented to me and I'm like that wasn't even a problem I was bothered by. But now I'm like, look, I can solve it. You know what I mean? It feels like so often especially with kids, especially with school. I remember when I was little, it was Earth Day and I wanted an Earth Day shirt. Well, that was not a problem my mother could solve for me. So I cut out a globe from a book and taped it on a T-shirt.  

Beth [00:15:33] I love that.  

Sarah [00:15:34] And I thought that was cool and it wasn't. It was weird. And I think back on it now, it's like how often would our kids really be happy to just take a marker to a shirt if we let them, and they think it's great?  

Beth [00:15:47] And it is great.  

Sarah [00:15:48] And it is great, right? So it's like I think that's it, too. We think they're solving their problem, but we're solving our problem. That's what happens so often with baby gear. Babies don't need a lot, but we think they do. I think it's so often that it's just the allure of it's not solving the problem. It's not even a problem. It's just that feeling of getting something that's such a nice, easy, black and white check off the list.  

Beth [00:16:16] And I think that is decreasing our patients for the harder problem solving in the world.  

Sarah [00:16:20] Yeah.  

Beth [00:16:21] That's what worries me the most. I think that we could work on ethical supply chains and get to a lot of the environmental downside of overconsumption. I think we could get to a lot of the human exploitation of overconsumption. I think we're a smart and innovative species that could solve a lot of these problems and still consume a lot of stuff. What worries me the most is that this frictionlessness translates into other parts of life. I was having a conversation about just a really difficult and crappy thing that happened, and the person I was talking with said, yeah, there's a good argument to say why would you choose to be in relationship with this person who's difficult? And I thought, why would I? Why am I choosing to be in relationship with this person who's difficult when in my pocket constantly because of what we do I have access to incredibly lovely people all over the world with whom I never have to interact in a difficult way if I don't want to? And if I do, I can just turn it off and stick it back in my pocket and not worried about it anymore. Sharing the air with a difficult person constantly has become harder because I have so many experiences that are not hard at all. 

Sarah [00:17:41] And I think about this with entertainment. I think there's a consumption model to entertainment now that it's so easy to feel like you can have something that is both highly produced and engaging, but also like highly tailored in a way that makes going to a local band and singing with live music with people who might annoy you. Like I have such a low tolerance for people like in an audience situation doing things I don't want them to do. And I'm like, yeah, because I've forgotten how to be around other people because I can just watch this highly produced, excellently written drama at the touch of a button, even though I don't even do that. I can, but I don't. U think that it's getting harder to feel that friction, even though that is what we want. We want the friction. We feel more or less. We feel frustrated. We feel burned out because you sent us a great podcast about dopamination. That once we hit these dopamine receptors over and over and over again, we lose the capacity to tolerate the pain, to tolerate the discomfort.  

[00:18:53] I think our seesaw of the dopamine receptors and the pain receptors all out of whack. And I don't know any other way to find that than to just sort of start practicing that discomfort. Saying to your kid, I'm sorry, we don't have anything for that spirit day to day. It's okay. You'll survive. I don't know whether a way to say like I think this would be the perfect complement to my wardrobe; I really need this x, y, z shoe and Amazon has it and Temu has it and Shayn has it, but I don't need it. It's okay if my shoes are not perfect. It's okay if my outfit doesn't look like every other outfit on Instagram. I think the fast fashion of it all especially even with kid’s clothes is easy. Like they've outgrown it. You can fast fashion that solution like that, you know?  

Beth [00:19:40] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:19:41] And I think I don't know a solution except for just to go no.  

Beth [00:19:48] I really liked the podcast that I sent you and we'll link it in the show notes if you'd like to listen. But the expert on this show was talking about how we're not allowing ourselves to develop mental calluses. I love. I like that phrase so much.  

Sarah [00:20:02] When she said mental calluses I went, "Oh mental calluses" out loud in the car by myself.  

Beth [00:20:07] Yes, that's how I reacted to it, too. I thought that was so helpful because that's true for me. And I am avoiding mental calluses around the dumbest things. I'll give you an example. I told you just a few minutes ago that I'm really obsessed with the Martha Stewart documentary on Netflix. So I felt angst about being behind the zeitgeist on that. People had already watched it and talked about it and I hadn't watched it yet and I felt angst about that. That's dumb, but I felt it. And so then I started watching it by myself. And about 20 minutes in, she says the most interesting thing, and I thought, I don't want to watch this by myself. I want to watch this with a friend and talk about it. I want to watch it in person with a friend and talk about it, not be part of the online conversation about it. And I was thinking, how many places am I losing that opportunity to experience something with someone in a real way? Because I'm telling myself I got to be part of the online discussion of this. And if I don't, then I've missed something. I am allowing my reality to increasingly be digital. And I feel like right now I'm trying to say, how can I take that back you know?  

Sarah [00:21:22] Yeah. Like we went and saw Home Alone in person in a theater full of people, and there were like car parts. There were people getting up and moving. I noticed because it was a movie everyone knew; everyone was getting up constantly and walking around. But also there are parts that you're like you forget that's so funny because you've seen it so many times. And to hear a theater of people laugh again at this moment is so special and so unique to be in community with each other. But I just think it is hard to own that that's always going to have some impatience, discomfort, frustration and to like really lean into that experience. That's why I read classics more and more and more. I want a slower pace. I want something I'm going to bump up against. I want something I'm going to struggle with. I don't want a book I can swallow in one gulp. I want to really fight with it.  

[00:22:12] I had this just real revelatory moment where I thought if I walked away from my smartphone, I would have given about 12 years of my life to it. And if I lived to be 100, which I plan to do as much as you can plan on your own longevity, that would only be a 10th of my life. And that felt like freedom to me. It felt like freedom to me. And I think about it constantly. And I really am in every space trying to claw it back and try to think where can I find the presence, the discomfort? Look, the weird thing about this is sometimes that involves more consumption Sometimes, for example, with shopping, I love clothes. But I found the real solution is. For me instead of the fast fashion instead of the Amazon of it all, I really like designer consignment. That involves spending more money, but I know I'm getting something that I'm not going to see in a million different Instagram posts. That's something of higher quality, but I have to spend more money.  

[00:23:31] It takes a lot more time and energy to shop that way than it does to get something sent to me through Instagram, DMs and click a button. I can tell you that much. But it's so much more rewarding even though I'm spending more time, more money. I think that's the lie under this. It's that the better solution now it should always be cheaper and easier. And I think what we're finding in this overconsumption ickiness we're all feeling is like all that's done is just increase the buying. It hasn't solved our problems. It's made it easier maybe in the individual interaction, but not easier at the macro level because we're drowning in stuff where we feel nothing. That's it. It's not like we feel bad. We just feel nothing. And I think that that is part of what we're all sort of reacting to.  

[00:24:22] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:24:32] I've been trying to differentiate between the way that you get hurt online versus that mental callus that you develop when you get hurt in real life because you do get hurt online all the time. I do think that all of this frictionlessness creates a kind of unmooring, as you said. But even more than that, it can be really depressing. People can be so sharp. I definitely have developed some calluses from the time that I've spent online. I think constantly about how when you and I were on vacation this summer, someone sent both of us a message about how they did not understand why we were posting pictures of our trips on our personal Instagram stories, and we texted about it and I spent a lot of time on that vacation thinking about that message. And this is a person I've never met, I have no relationship with, but it stung in a way, even though there isn't any kind of context to wrap around that sting. And I would love to have a word for that kind of digital injury that happens because it does change you. I have been changed by the time I have spent communicating with people I don't know online. And still I don't feel like that contributes to my resilience the way that in person friction, the difficult human who I have to stay in relationship with changes me.  

Sarah [00:26:00] Well, you should just have a crappy memory like me because I had totally forgotten about that interaction. But it does. I think, bring up something really important, which is absolutely the interactions online are a huge part of my feeling that it's all about consumption because I feel consumed. I feel like I'm a product that people feel entitled to criticize. I had an incredibly upsetting interaction that I tried to personalize and take off on in a way with a person who was upset with us about our stance on the conflict in Gaza. And I think that was like the final straw for me, that I was like, you know what? I owe nothing to anyone. I don't care if I make money online. I don't owe you shit. I don't owe my humanity to you because you're mad that I make money online in a way that you think entitles you to criticize me. I think I could just see it and could feel myself being consumed in a way that was like uh-uh. But the other aspect of that I think is really interesting and is absolutely a part of my sort of Instagram presence and my own choices is travel. I think travel has really become a part of the overconsumption conversation, something I think a lot about. Now, I think some of this was pent up from the pandemic.  

[00:27:31] There is already a lot of trend lines showing that it's decreasing. But that was like pent up frustration that the airlines are anticipating less travelers. I think we had the biggest travel day ever on Thanksgiving. But I'm thinking a lot about that. I don't want to go to Spain. If the Spanish locals are going to throw water on me. Not just because that would be an unfortunate experience, but because I don't want to be a part of the problem wherever I go. That's not why I travel. I travel because I want to understand and connect to my global community and see both the things and cultures and countries that connect us and that are different and can open up space for me to see things differently, see solutions differently. But my friend and I were just talking about this that we are really considering travel and thinking about where am I going to consume the place? Am I going to check it off the list? Am I going because it's a place people say you should go? Am I going just to run out of my country total or whatever? Versus am I going because I want to experience something? So like we went to Japan this summer. We definitely hit the big spots. I thought a lot about Kyoto because there was a crying out from the people there of like it's too much, we can't handle all these people.  

[00:28:51] And so I picked another location Yamaguchi that was a place that wanted more travelers, that had a similar vibe. And so I think as I move forward and I think about my consumption in travel, I really want to think about like what communities are crying out? We would love to have you here. We have something similar. Instead of being like, no, I have to go to this place because this is the place that everybody says you have to go to. This is the place you see 100 Instagram reels about. Because when we were there in Yamaguchi, it was so special because it wasn't overrun and we weren't walking around temples that needed care by ourselves, that needed donation, that needed attention, that needed eyes on it to say this is a special place in need of protection. And so I'm really thinking about that and thinking about where am I contributing to a consumption problem? Where is a community saying enough is enough we can't take you right now. But it's really hard. It's really hard because you can't detach the narratives around travel that you get about solving problems. And just that undercurrent that's under fashion and parenting and travel and all this stuff of this is how you live a good life and you do it by consuming.  

Beth [00:30:08] Yeah. A fear that I have had about having this conversation is sounding scolding or trying to present quick and easy answers or hard and fast roles because I don't think any of that exist. I don't think it's wrong to travel or to order a package off Amazon or to buy more than you need. I don't think any of that's morally wrong. I don't want to put that shade on it. What I'm identifying in myself is I am unhappy with how I'm making these decisions. And so I like that idea of saying, okay, if I'm a person who likes to travel, let me not be like I shouldn't travel, that's consumption. Let me just think differently about how I decide where to go and what we do there. Part of the reason that I love Emily Ho as an influencer is because she is presenting a path to find products that are not available to me in a local store or a consignment shop because of sizing. I love the idea of consignment, but that's really not a viable path for me. And I think about people who hear I canceled my Amazon and are like, well, gosh, if I cancel my Amazon, I can't get anything because I don't live near a store. I don't live near any kind of option to just get the things that we really need.  

[00:31:29] So I don't want to lay down these markers of how live a good life. At the same time, I wish somebody else would because I get tripped up as I think about this on dumb things. Again, like we have the same towels in my house that we got when we got married. So my towels are like 17 years old. They were nice towels, but they are sand paper now. They are beyond needing to be replaced. But I have so many of them because we just got a whole set of towels when we got married. And I feel ridiculous getting rid of those towels and even more ridiculous buying new towels, even though clearly I need to do this. So it's like I would like some kind of paradigm to think differently about all this where, yes, I'm still a consumer because we always will be. But I'm not primarily a consumer and I'm not assessing myself worth or numbing out or trying to solve every problem with a purchase.  

Sarah [00:32:28] Well, I think we've talked about this before. The sort of moral component of boycott this company because they're bad. Or I will say you can still get deliveries from Amazon without Amazon Prime. I just want to say that. You just have to order over $25 worth. You've just saved them up. It's not as huge of an impact as you think it would be. I think that there are often so many other even online solutions that I think can help us with this. It's not like you have to take all of your consumption offline. Although, as far as clothes. Whatever your size is, I would like to try it on. Do you know what I'm saying? I think that's a good sort of marker sometimes. It's like what do you actually want? Even to the closing of it all saying, okay, I'm going to go through, I'm going to get rid of the things I don't wear. What am I looking for? Make a list. Just stick to the damn list. What do I want? Because it is so easy. The stuff is built for you to scroll across and go, yeah, I do need that. That's the whole premise. So I think it's the paradox of you have to introduce friction because the frictionlessness will carry you along. So if you articulate what do I want out of travel? What do I want out of my wardrobe? What do I want my home to feel like?  

[00:33:52] Once you can articulate those values, articulate those markers yourselves, they might be different than somebody else's, but there's just a consciousness to it. Because the problem, I think, with overconsumption is how much of it is unconscious. I love it when people think that the stuff doesn't work on them because advertising is like a $1 billion industry because it doesn't work. Of course, it works. It works on you like it works on everybody else. And I think just remembering that and remembering that flood of messages-- here's the thing that lives rent free in my head. It's that moment in Supersize me where he says you could sit with your kids and tell them something about a nutritious diet and you'd still be like 30,000 messages behind what they hear from McDonald's. I think about that a lot and I think about what am I to my kids about consumption?  

[00:34:44] What are they watching me do no matter what I tell them to do that is saying this is how we solve our problems. This is what we're entitled to because I think there is a thread that runs through consumption that involves entitlement. That's definitely what I feel when I feel like a product online, is people feel entitled to criticize me, entitled to correct me, entitled to moralize at me. And I feel that in the audience situation. I feel entitled to a frictionless environment with hundreds of other people where they're never holding up their cell phones when I don't think they should? Of course, that's ridiculous. And so I think articulating what you want and remembering that you can fall for the same psychological traps as everybody else because you're inside this multibillion dollar system is important. It's hard. I love it, but it's important.  

Beth [00:35:37] I think that's why maybe the only paradigm I'm coming to right now in my decision making in my quest to avoid moralizing or hard and fast, impossible standards, I keep asking myself, like, what makes me feel freer? So not being on Instagram makes me feel freer 

Sarah [00:35:53] Absolutely.  

Beth [00:35:54] I just went to the Eras tour in Toronto. It was great. I didn't post a single thing on Instagram about it. And there were lots of people, an astonishing number of people, who were like, "Where are your pictures?" And I get it. And I feel a little bit mean almost. You know what I mean? Because those people come from a great place of wanting to share in the joy of an interesting life experience with me. But I felt freer that weekend just taking that off my list. I look happier in the pictures because I didn't take the pictures thinking about posting them. I just took the pictures for me. I have a different set of pictures than I would have had because I intended not to post. And I had a different time there. My brain was in a different place. I was never checking to see who had responded to a picture I posted or interacting with someone who wasn't there. I just got to be there. And that made it a really cool experience for me. It would have been anyway; I'm positive. But it made it a different experience for me because I just let myself be there. And I'm thinking about that in a lot of circumstances. So with my towels, I have finally ordered some new towels.  

Sarah [00:37:05] I'm proud of you because I really did want you to get new towels. I wasn't going to say anything because we're in a consumption episode, but I do think you should get new towels.  

Beth [00:37:10] And so I did a lot of research to find towels that I thought would be really great towels that would last me a long time. And then I ordered them and I thought, okay, I feel freer now. I have not decided what to do with the old towels yet. I'm still stuck on that. But I'm just kind of searching for, like, where have I been complying with a set of rules that I never wrote down or agreed to, but that are really influencing how I conduct my life? And how can I feel a little bit more freedom from those? And I think that almost always is walking me away from overconsumption.  

Sarah [00:37:42] Well, and I think that the freedom of it all-- two things. Well, I definitely agree about Instagram. I still post when I travel because I really love to feel like people are along with me and I really like to hear from the locals. I love to hear like, yeah, go here. It feels like I have this amazing set of angels traveling with me. But what I'm really struggling with and I would love to hear our audience solution is just the photography of it all. Because I picked up my old handheld camera and it cannot compete with the iPhone camera. Nowhere close. So I'm like should I get a point and shoot? Should I get it? I really want to detach from my phone? And I think the camera part of my phone does not make me feel freer. But I feel chained to it because it's such a good camera because they did that part on purpose too, guys. So I'd love to hear if anybody has thought of a solution to that because I think it's really hard.  

[00:38:39] And as I'm thinking about all of these things, as I'm thinking about every decision and what do I want and who do I want to be inside this system, I have to think about us as advertisers ourselves. And what does that mean for me? I'm really happy with our new network. I'm really happy with a network who encourages us to just tell us what you're already using and we'll reach out because that feels the best to me. Because, listen, I do think there are products that have changed my life, have really improved my quality of living, who did solve a problem I was actively trying to solve. And so when we get to share that with the audience, that feels fantastic to me. It's not that I think all advertising, all consumption is bad, but it is hard to think about like as a consumer, as a person who gets income from advertising, where is my role inside of all this? Is there a healthy way to do this?  

[00:39:40] Is there a healthy way to influence each other and share and find the best towels and solve the problem and get it off your list? And probably, yes. Not every time. It's different every time. But like Greenlight. Greenlight is a perfect example. I've been using that product for a long time with my kids. It did solve a parenting problem because allowance is a pain in the ass. And so it's like all of that stuff. You have to just hold it all at the same time and realize because we do participate in such a massive global economy, it's going to be a complicated answer probably every time.  

Beth [00:40:14] Yeah. I think this is another reason I'm really trying not to bring morality into it because I'm never going to not love to shop. I love to shop. I think shopping is really fun and I want to support people who are making things. And I think when an influencer is good they're really fun to watch and it adds something to my life. I don't think any of this is wrong. It's just trying to figure out how can it be right for me and how can it be contained in a way where it doesn't make me less free. That is the only prism I know how to put around it. And, of course, the environmental impact. I'm not leaning into that, though, because that is where I find myself taking responsibility for things that aren't my responsibility and doing dumb things like keeping towels that feel sandpaper. There's a point where you just get so in your head about the bigness of it all that it doesn't work anymore. But, yeah, I like a little treat. I love to give a gift. I don't want to make this so heavy that I can't just be a person in the world. I don't want to cause anyone an existential crisis about their career. I got enough of that about mine.  

[00:41:21] As you said, I think about advertising, which I think we try to do as ethically as we can and still people have problems. With almost every ad we read, somebody out there has a problem with it. I think about this with news consumption. We just did an episode about how do we consume information in a contributive way because those things often go together. And I think about how we can contribute something. I feel like I have spent hours of every day since the election thinking, how do we do what we do here in a way that puts good things in the river, that is distinctive, that's worthy of the time people are spending with us? Those are really hard questions. And I don't want to be afraid to critique the things that we're a part of or press on the way that we do them. And I also don't want to be so lost in my head that I'm just paralyzed by it.  

Sarah [00:42:13] Yeah, there is absolutely a paralyzing aspect that is really hard. And look, I do think there is some ethical consumption and I think there is some unethical consumption. I'm looking at you Temu. But I think for me the detachment is like, yeah, I can think it's unethical and I'm not a bad person or anyone who is involved in that isn't a villain. I think that's where we really get lost. It's to say like, well, that was a bad call, but you're not a bad person. It's okay. I think everybody is getting a little more comfortable with that. What I heard from the audience sort of this like uproar, outcry that we heard from the last one is everybody just feels lost inside this big system and they don't like it. Now, I haven't heard from a single person who walked away from social media and regrets it. I'm just going to be honest with that. I haven't heard from a single listener who was like, you know what? I left Instagram and I really missed it and I came back. Everybody is like it’s amazing. The water is warm. Jump in with me. And I'm really pretty close. I go days without checking it. And I have stopped thinking about it and I set up enough speed bumps. And I've done that with my phone as well. I'm like I'm not carrying my phone around my house. Because why should I? I think there's a way to think about anything in your life. Where is it additive? How is it treating me? And more and more with my phone, more and more with technology and social media, it just treats me as a consumer and it's really subtractive. And that's what I hear from people who walk away completely or are just like I'm done. And still there are things I can't give up because they make my life easier. And so then I'm like, well, is that the most important value to me? That it's easier? Which is where we started this, like the frictionlessness of it all. I think this is a weird time of year to think about consumption and also the best time because if right now doesn't offer an opportunity to assess what we've been doing and reassess what we want to do next, I don't know what does.  

[00:44:20] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:44:30] All right. Speaking of the new year, Axios had a write up on the new trends for 2025. Micro trends, if you will. Beth, here they are. Laid back Maritime attitude. Cable knit sweaters. Striped tops. Sardine tattoos.  

Beth [00:44:48] I had questions about what that means as well.  

Sarah [00:44:50] Mermaid makeup, Wait here. I'm fine with all these. I've never met a striped shirt I didn't want to buy. I have decided that I have enough striped shirts, but that is neither here nor there.  

Beth [00:44:58] Well, a cable knit sweater is the most valuable.  

Sarah [00:45:02] Okay. Pickles and everything.  

Beth [00:45:04] I love a pickle.  

Sarah [00:45:05] My children will eat entire jars of pickles. Not even like dill pickles, just like slices. Things that go on sandwich and they're just going for it.  

Beth [00:45:16] I will sit with a sweet gherkin jar as though I am pregnant every day of the year. I love it.  

Sarah [00:45:21] Well, fermenting is good for you. So go for it, guys. Nesting parties. Less baby shower, more helping parents prep for postpartum life. Setting up house, cooking freezer friendly meals.  

Beth [00:45:30] I love that one.  

Sarah [00:45:32] Well, I do love baby gear, but I think there is room to dial down the consumptive model of this is how you help a new parent and more the community model. No doubt on that.  

Beth [00:45:40] And also it gets to the reality of postpartum life. Like having something in the freezer that can go in the oven, that's hugely helpful.  

Sarah [00:45:49] And then cherry everything. It's the it color in makeup and fashion. But I thought it was that sad brown that Pantone picked as the color of the year. Because, listen, they have that one. This is not a word of the year situation. They've got it right. Pantone has it. I know that Sherwin-Williams and other people try to do it. That's cute, but it's not Pantone.  

Beth [00:46:06] Well, what's helpful to me in terms of not being tempted to buy a bunch of new stuff is that neither cherry nor that brown flatter me in any way. And so I'm just going to have to be out on that trend. That's okay.  

Sarah [00:46:18] Well, how do you feel about trends overall? Do you feel like they're missing anything from this list? Is there a trend you would like to add to the list?  

Beth [00:46:25] I think the thing that I have felt most optimistic about lately is the New York Times Most Stylish People of the Year article that I told you about. And what I liked about it is that I felt like what they were pointing to as style was simply saying these are people who are memorable or distinctive in some way. Or not even just people, I think they put Moo Dang on the list. Like, whatever.  

Sarah [00:46:48] Moo Dang? Stop it.  

Beth [00:46:50] But I like the idea that trends are going in a direction where it is just about saying what do you really like? I think that's what you were getting at when you were talking about the way you shop for clothes now. You have a style, right? And I can look at something and say, that would look great on Sarah, and that is really where Sarah is in her fashion. And I think that trendiness as something that encourages you to be just more where you are, that's beautiful. That's so much better than, well, everybody's purse is cherry this season. Go grab a cherry purse.  

Sarah [00:47:25] Yeah, it's weird. It's such a fine line with trends and I don't mean just fashion trends, I think societal trends generally. Like where are they descriptive and where are they prescriptive.  

Beth [00:47:36] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:47:37] And I like feeling up to date and also I like classics. I really like a nice blend in my home and other places. I want a foundation that says like I'm not going to have to replace these every five years. Because that's a real overconsumption model in home decor I think and in renovations where it's just by the time you do it's out of date because they're trying to sell something else to the next round of renovators so they can believe that they're things are out of date so that they can renovate again. And so the trendiness of it where you want to pick something out fun, like I I'm so glad we have all moved on from gray and that we're going to these like really beautiful, rich colors. I'm into that. And also but if you like gray, who cares? So it's hard I think with a trend to elevate and pay attention to something beautiful, worthwhile, different, and not just to strip all the soul out of it because now everybody has to do it.  

Beth [00:48:40] Yeah, I'm glad that that great trend is moving on because I've always loved gray and I felt really weird when everything became gray because that's where we've been. Because Chad and I just really, really like gray. I like trends because I think freshness is important. I think we need variety. I think we need to not feel stuck. I struggle with this because I have curly hair and there's just like not a lot of directions I can go with my curly hair. You know what I mean? Like in terms of cut and style, when you find something that works for you, it's hard to experiment. And sometimes I'm like, I just really want to shake this up. I know I'll regret it if I do. So anything that brings a freshness or renewal, I'm thrilled. Show me a new way to do my eyeliner. Okay? Show me a new way to tuck my shirt in or whatever. I think it's good to have trends. I'm not anti-trend at all. I am just trying to find that place where I go, well, I'll just pass on that one. Not my color. Or I look dumb in that silhouette so everybody else can go for it, but not me. I'm never going to do I think this is way over now, thank goodness. But I'm never going to do the cut out shoulder. I'm never going to do the peplum. You know what I mean? Those things just do not work for me. And so I like it when style makers are showing us lots of different versions of this is stylish right now and this is fresh right now. And you can find yourself somewhere in the mix.  

Sarah [00:50:03] Well, I wish we had more space for micro trends. Everything doesn't have to be everywhere. Every coffee shop doesn't have to be the same. I think that's the Instagram of it all, the overconsumption of it all. Even to the article about the aesthetic that you found in your yoga YouTube class. Because it's such a big system and we're just right back to our conversation from the previous segment, which is fine, it just becomes everywhere. And then not only is it not a macro trend, it's the thing because it's so frictionless to adopt the trend. Then the trends everywhere, then we need a new trend. So I think letting the micro trends be micro, enjoying it but not feel it-- maybe that's it, right? Why can't we just enjoy someone's style and enjoy a way someone wears it without thinking we have to consume that. We don't have to put pickles in everything just because that's the new trend. You don't have to wear cherry if it's not your color. You can just enjoy it. I think we've lost the ability to observe and enjoy. And I think this gets to the photography of it all and sort of the capturing like it didn't happen if we didn't take a picture. It's not a trend if we don't buy it. It's not like we're not participating unless we're consuming. And I think leaving that attitude behind and letting something just be, it's hard. It's hard in this media environment, societal moment culture.  

Beth [00:51:28] It's almost like we think something is only good if it's endlessly copied.  

Sarah [00:51:33] Which then makes it bad.  

Beth [00:51:35] And that then makes it bad.  

Sarah [00:51:35] Then we have to tear it down. We do it to people, too. You know what I mean? We build them up just to tear them down.  

Beth [00:51:40] Exactly. So I think that if a laid back maritime attitude speaks to you, how exciting.  

Sarah [00:51:48] Then you're French. Congratulations.  

Beth [00:51:48] Well, and how exciting that that's on trend right now. But if not, whatever your thing is, cozy Mountain will be in vogue next season. And that's fine, too.  

Sarah [00:51:57] Yeah. Just wait it out, baby. That's what I want to tell to all the 20 year olds in our audience. Like whatever it is just hold on to it because it'll come back around and you won't be too old to experience the trend again. Because I do think that's still true. My mom told me that. I remember being so mad at her and rolling my eyes and she'd be like, "I already did that once." But you can do it again and it gets better. Like the mom jeans are so much better than the mom jeans were in the 90s. So hold on to that stuff ladies in your early 20s, it'll come right back around.  

Beth [00:52:29] Well, I feel tension with whatever is happening. Wait it out is almost always the right strategy, whether it's stuff or anything else.  

Sarah [00:52:36] Yeah. Well, we can't wait to hear from all of you. I definitely want to hear if anybody solved this photography conundrum I find myself in. But we got a lot of feedback from you guys’ last time. We can't wait to hear what you're thinking about consumption and the approaches you've taken in your own lives. As we mentioned at the start of the show, we have more conversations about this plan for the new Year and we can't wait to hear your thoughts on our Substack page or email at Hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. Don't forget you can gift a subscription to our Substack for the fan in your life. And we will be back in your ears on Tuesday afternoon to discuss the latest news. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

[00:53:14] Music Interlude.  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers: Ali Edwards, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy & Derek Starr Redwine, Amy Whited, Anya Binsacca, Ashley Rene, Ashley Terry, Barry Kaufman, Becca Dorval, Beth Loy, Brandon & Jessica Krausse, Catherine Kniss, Chelsea Gaarder, Christi Matthews, Christian Campbell, Christie Johnson, Christina Quartararo, Connie Peruchietti, Crystal Kemp, The Adair Family, Ellen Burnes, Emily Holladay, Emily Helen Olson, Gabrielle McDonald and Wren, Genny Francis, The Charney Family, Heather Ericacae, Jacque Earp, Jan Feltz, Janice Elliott, Jeff Davis, Jen Ross, Jeremy Sequoia, Jessica Whitehead, Jessica Boro, Jill Bisignano, Julie Haller, Julie Hough, Karin True, Katherine Vollmer, Katie Johnson, Katy Stigers, Kimberley Ludwig, Kristen Redford Hydinger, Kristina Wener, Krysten Wendell, Laura Martin, Laurie LaDow, Lee Chaix McDonough, Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen, Lily McClure, Linda Daniel, Linsey Sauer, Bookshelf on Church, Martha Bronitsky, Megan Hart, Michelle Palacios, Michelle Wood, Morgan McHugh, Onica Ulveling, Paula Bremer, The Villanueva Family, Sabrina Drago, Samantha Chalmers, Sasha Egolf, Sarah Greenup, Sarah Ralph, Shannon Frawley, Stephanie Elms, Susanne Dickinson, The Lebo Family, The Munene Family, Tiffany Hassler, Tracey Puthoff, Veronica Samoulides, Vicki Jackman.

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