The Stress of a Close Election

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Harris vs. Trump

  • Outside of Politics: Our Pre-Election Exhale

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EPISODE RESOURCES

UPCOMING EVENTS

  • Join us for a live virtual event with the Mormon Women for Ethical Government on Thursday, October 17 at 7pm MT / 9pm ET. All are welcome to join in real time, but the recording will only be available to MWEG members. Sign up through this link and join us!

  • Process your post-election stress with Sarah, Beth and Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text! Join us in Boston vis live stream on November 7 - for a fun night among friends.

HARRIS VS. TRUMP

Sarah’s Travel Itineraries

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:29] We're so glad that you're here today. Often, listeners tell us that they tune in for some political therapy. And I just think we need that right now as we are getting so close to the election. We're just going to talk about that. We're going to process our feelings about where this race is and where it's going and the conversations we're having and how we see it. And we hope that you will feel really seen and heard in this conversation. And then we'll end by talking about the very different ways that Sarah and I both got a little bit of rest and fun over the past couple of weeks through Sarah's trip to Yellowstone National Park and my quick weekend in Las Vegas.  

Sarah [00:01:02] But first, we wanted to share an incredibly important announcement here at Pantsuit Politics. You all know that we are an independent podcast in the news and politics space. We operate from our homes. Our business is unusual even, some would argue, improbable that we have been doing this for nine years without investors, without being bought by a major media company. And the way we have been able to do that is through the people who listen to this show, who have supported us financially every step of the way. Now, those people, as you know, get premium shows. Good Morning from me. And More to Say from Beth. And for a long time, those two premium shows and all that financial support has fueled the two free podcasts we do here every week. Now, we have taken stock after some big changes in the podcast industry about how we can work better, how we can make it even easier to participate in that community and how, more importantly, we can get that community in one place. And so we have made a very big decision to move our premium community to Substack.  

Beth [00:02:19] So everything except these two shows that we make on your free feed every week will be on Substack now. Good morning, More to Say, discussion threads, watch parties, online events, our newsletter, everything else will live exclusively on Substack starting today. So if you are currently a premium listener through Patreon or Apple Podcasts subscriptions, you're going to get lots of information from us in your feeds about how this will work for you. We're working very hard for it to be easy and smooth. It's like we've hired movers to come in and take us from these different houses where we've been living into one new nice house that we're all going to enjoy together. And we do want it to be simple for you. If you have not been part of our premium community, we would love for this to be the time when you join us. Come build this new home at Substack with us together. In order to roll out that welcome mat for you, we are offering a 25% discounted annual rate that you will keep forever. It's not just to get you to join for one year. If you come now and are part of this move, for all time, you can have a 25% discount on your annual membership and we would sincerely love for you to join us.  

Sarah [00:03:31] And we've simplified it. It's just you get everything for $15 or you can be an executive producer. And the executive producer gang is growing. It's getting fun over there. We're planning a retreat. We're going to swim in Beth's pool-- if we all fit. Now, Beth, that's an actual thing we're going to have to talk about. We're going to do a meet up before our Boston live show with executive producers. The executive producers have been to a dinner party at my house, so it is a really fun group that has grown dramatically as we've made this move to Substack, and we're really excited about that and the opportunities that community will have. We're just excited to be in one place. We're excited that we're not going to have all these tiers of access, that everybody is just going to come in. We're going to talk Good News on Thursday. We're going to be together for Spicy Live where Beth and I cut loose. Whatever strikes our fancy guys over there we do it. We want to have a Succession finale watch along for the season; we do that. We want to do a book club, we do it.  

[00:04:29] Beth and Chad want to talk about Survivor, they do it. That's the place where we live and hang out and share whatever we're obsessed with, with this amazing community that we learn from every single day. There is not a day that I post the News Brief or Beth does the More to Say that I don't learn something from our listeners. It'll literally be like, well, I'm a rocket scientist and let me share my insight on this space launch or whatever it is. I swear to God, that's a thing that happened. So it's just a really great community. And now we can all be there with a really robust platform. Substack is incredible. So many great thinkers and influencers have moved to Substack. We're excited to be there together and do events and collaborate with those people, people you've heard on the show before. So we're really, really excited. We're excited to move everyone over there and we're definitely excited to have some new people join us. So all the info is in our show notes or you can just search for us on Substack.  

Beth [00:05:26] Next up, let's talk about this election.  

[00:05:28] Music Interlude.  

[00:05:39] Well, we're 19 days from the election, so we probably need to discuss it. And, Sarah, I feel like it helps me to remember that we are now in that window of the election that's very much not for those of us who pay attention to politics. And that's been harder this cycle because Vice President Harris had a really teeny, tiny amount of time to actually talk to those of us who are way into politics. She has mostly had to focus on the handful of people in America who have not yet plugged into the election or who are somehow on the fence about the election. And so everything that's happening, I just have to step back and go, "Beth, not for you. Not for you at this point."  

Sarah [00:06:24] I agree that the Harris communication is not for us. But I think there are a lot of spaces on the Internet that are very much occupied by those of us consumed by the election. And it seems like the places where they're trying to get to people and the places where people are communicating incessantly about the election are bleeding together. So I'll be on X-- which I understand is a mistake. I know that. But I do it anyway. And I go on X and I'll see a TikTok from a waitress who got in a conversation with customers about no tax on tips and how Trump's going to get rid of the House of Representatives. Very much like a low information situation, but it's bubbling up into the high information environment because the high information people are desperate for any data points with regards to the low information people. So I think that there's a lot of melding going on right now.  

Beth [00:07:41] And that's never good. And it's particularly bad in the kind of information environment that we're walking through right now. Which cesspool seems like not even a strong enough word. The time that I spend online right now and it's a lot of it because, you're right, I am a person who's into politics so I want information. But every time I go online, I think, Beth, this is like exposing yourself to toxic waste. Why are you here? Why are you doing this?  

Sarah [00:08:11] Because my anxiety is high and my election anxiety says go seek out information. And sometimes I do find information that makes me feel better. So I'm that little rat with the lever; in that it's randomized, so I just press it more often. I saw an email from Puck News which I called A Tale of Two Davids about David Plouffe and Dave Wasserman. And the fact that Trump's ceiling is pretty well established at this point since he's running for the third time, which is a part of my anxiety, just kind of mixed in with the (I don't know another word for it) PTSD of having to do two other campaigns with him. We don't know her ceiling, so we're hoping that it's higher. And then Dave Wasserman comes in about these different buckets of voters. We have super high propensity voters, the low propensity voters, the new voters. She's killing it in the new voters. That made me feel better. So it's like that's the problem. I will encounter some information that makes me feel better, but it's randomized. So my brain just goes, "Go back and find more. Go back and find more. Go back and find more."  

Beth [00:09:32] I think what has clearly emerged, 19 days out, is that this is the gender election. I read it so plainly put in the Bulwark this morning, so I wanted to share that here. This is from Will Kristol and Andrew Egger. "It's not that complicated. A majority of American men are going to vote for Donald Trump. A majority of American women are going to vote for Kamala Harris. The margin of victory for Harris among women and the turnout of women voters will be key to determining the outcome of this election." Okay, there we are.  

Sarah [00:10:02] I can't. I can't do it. I'm sorry. I can't give up on this yet. I think the fact that it is so close, even though there are all these data points that confirm exactly what they're saying-- I mean, one of my friends did phone banking and he said the women were wonderful and the men were assholes almost to a person. But I live in a house with four men, and so I just can't see this territory completely. One man and three boys. But you take my point that I'm just not ready to give up on them. And you know what? I'm glad the Harris campaign isn't either. I'm glad that she's still doing a lot of outreach to men, including talks right now to go on the Joe Rogan show, which I think would be a fabulous idea.  

Beth [00:10:52] I think she should do it, too. Absolutely.  

Sarah [00:10:54] I just don't want to give up on this. I don't want to say all men are for Trump. I mean, obviously, my husband is not for Trump. Most of my male friends are not for Trump. And so I just think it's so tempting because we are looking for this information because our brains categorize so quickly and so easily, and in particular because I think gender is a huge component of this. I think another massive component of this, which seems like the way the electorate is shifting to me is both more important and more concerning, is that this is becoming a true economic and educational sorting between the two parties. I'm sure you saw these numbers that now it is the Republican Party that holds a majority of people on some type of government benefit. I mean, that's becoming a majority of our country. It's what now over 50% of counties have a majority of residents on government benefits. The educational sorting that's going on, that's really trumping (for lack of a better word) these demographic indicators that we thought were the most important thing, including gender, including race. So it's like there's a lot going on here.  

Beth [00:12:22] I don't think it's giving up to recognize the gender dynamics in this election because I think women need to hear women will decide the margin here. Whichever way this very tight election goes, women will decide the margin. So don't skip voting, and get your friends to vote. And don't take for granted that things just are settled here because they are not. I agree with you, she should not give up on men. And she's not. She's doing great. But for us as people who influence other people in our lives, hearing how key women are going to be to the outcome of this election, I think is very motivating and very important. I don't know what we do on this education gap. It worries me a lot just thinking historically because despite making progress on income inequality in our country, the cultural side of it feels increasingly classist. Which is a bad recipe for stability.  

[00:13:28] And that's another reason that I think it's really important that Kamala Harris, who I think is a good messenger to do this, be everywhere. I don't even know that it matters what she says on Joe Rogan as much as that she goes there, because that's an announcement I care about the people who listen to this show. And those are people who probably don't feel automatically cared about by me. And I think all of us, in whatever positions of influence we have, need to think about more and more ways to say I care beyond my social sphere, however we can, or this gap is going to get worse and it's going to manifest in much worse ways than in the presidential election.  

Sarah [00:14:09] Yeah, it's my struggle right now because I do struggle with the 46% of Americans who are going to vote for him no matter what. When I watch him just stand on stage with his weird makeup and his either awkward silences or rambling, incoherent speeches and then see people in comment thread like he's the goat, he's going to save us, this very like cultish like language, it's so hard. I'm so sad about it. I'm pissed, but anger is secondary emotion. And so I think I'm just still grieving that so many people, including people I know and love, are going to vote for this man who is so transparently corrupt, morally bankrupt and incompetent. And at the same time, intellectually, I have to tell myself abandoning those people, discarding those people, refusing to engage with those people is how we got here. And we're sure as hell not going to get out of here any other way.  

[00:15:23] Like Leave the people in Middle America and move to the city. Leave the failing public schools, take my kid, go somewhere else. Even the way we talk about taxes, I had a conversation in text with my friend about this. That I don't think about my taxes as a consumer. I think about my taxes as a citizen. They're not tuition. They're not a savings account for my retirement. That's not what taxes are. We don't think about it in any of it. The vote, the taxes, where we live, how we act, the institutions themselves as something we participate in together because we really want to not think about the people who are so different than we are. And it feels so hard and raw and exhausting during a presidential. It's true all the time, but the way it bubbles up in these ways right now it's killing me.  

Beth [00:16:20] I was reading about some focus groups of voters who are lumped under what I think is the not incredibly helpful descriptor of Hispanic because so many people with so many different life experiences get placed under that label. And I would like to be more precise about it, but that's the language that the piece used. And the piece was saying that Trump does well with those voters on immigration because they don't feel that he's talking about them. And I thought, well, that's totally fair. There are a million issues that white voters hear someone bashing a certain population of white people about and think, well, he's not talking about me, he's talking about a different class of people. And that, according to this piece I read, is part of what's going on in that big umbrella of Hispanic voters. That there are Hispanic voters who have been in America for a generation now and think that their social prospects are harmed by additional immigration, especially by chaotic immigration. So I try to hear all of that and be really open minded about it and think not, well, what are they missing that I know, but what do they know that I'm missing?  

[00:17:37] So my logical brain can stay really open on these things. My emotional brain watches the clip from the Pennsylvania town hall. It's a Q&A. It's a town hall. The event is for Trump to interact with voters via South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem. And people start passing out. And he talks about how great that is because we can all lose some weight in the heat in here. And then he says, "Who the hell wants to listen to more questions anyway? Let's turn on some music." And there's 30 minutes of him just standing on the stage with this weird playlist that's like Ave Maria, and then It's a Man's World, and then YMCA, and then November Rain, and then Memory from Cats. And it goes on for 30 minutes and he just stands awkwardly on the stage sort of dancing. And his press secretary tweets about how special it is. And I'm like, this is what we're doing? And then I go back to that 46% number and I lose all of that openness that my rational mind can maintain, because I think, how are we not seeing this for what it is?  

Sarah [00:18:48] And I'm just exhausted with that process. I've been doing it for nine years. Seeing him, seeing how he behaves, selling Bibles as a presidential candidate, selling shoes and crypto, just blatantly trying to make money off of his supporters. I see him and remember every sexist, terrible, degrading thing he said about women over the last nine years- all of it. Then I have to do this dance and I'm just tired of dancing with this. I really am. I'm tired and I'm mad that I keep having to. And the thought of doing it for four more years makes me want to hurl myself into space. It's just exhausting because I do care for my fellow citizens. And honestly, you know what? It's not even about care. I'm just in it with them. There's nothing I can do about it. I'm in it. I'm not moving. I'm not leaving America if he wins again. I'm in it with them. And what does that mean? Even if he loses the fact that so many millions of people are going to vote for something that seems so transparently awful to me is hard.  

[00:20:10] And like to hear Mike Johnson stand up and say, well, he's not a man of character, of course, but we're not voting for class president. This isn't a popularity contest. It's about the policies. And it just is mind bending. What policies, friend? Shutting down the border is more important than the women in rural areas dying for lack of health care? I just struggle. I really struggle. I think that argument is ludicrous because I think at this point, after nine years, it is hard for even his most cultish of followers to deny that he's mean. And so they have to do this bending, especially if they're people of faith-- and I believe Mike Johnson is a person of sincere faith. I disagree with his interpretation of the faith, but I believe it's sincere to watch them bend themselves into knots to justify this man's abhorrent behavior. It's exhausting.  

Beth [00:21:15] This is the problem for all of us with, well, he doesn't mean that. Now, we had this whole discourse in his first term about what he's serious about and what he's literal about. But as policy unrolls from that, he does mean you. So when I hear him say that the enemy within America is a bigger threat than the enemy outside of America because of the radical left lunatics that he wants to deploy the National Guard against, I think he probably does mean me. Because as centrist as I am and I am happy to claim that word, I think I am a radical left lunatic to him. And if he is in charge again I think that that is a scary proposition, especially because I have thousands of hours of my voice on the Internet saying that I think he is unsuitable to be the leader of the free world. I think that a lot of people, and we've talked about this before but I feel is worth repeating, look at abortion laws and what they mean is a 20-year-old woman who had sex with someone she just met and got pregnant and doesn't want to keep the baby and they think that's wrong and should be illegal. Fine. That's what you believe.  

[00:22:28] I still don't think the government should be involved in that decision, but that's what you believe. That's not what the laws mean. And a lot of this election has been about trying to educate people on what happens when you take that "common sense viewpoint" and translate it to policy at scale. And what we do then means everybody, not just the people that you mean. This is the thing with our criminal laws. You can hear somebody talk about being tough on crime. Well, he doesn't mean me. Maybe not. But a mandatory minimum might affect your kid who gets a DUI one day. It doesn't work this way and we have got to get right with that. And there's that education gap again, because getting right with that takes a lot of time. And I don't know what we do from here other than continuing to hammer home those themes, as I think that Kamala Harris has done very effectively in as many spaces as possible.  

Sarah [00:23:36] The other day, my dad picked me up and I had to take him somewhere and he had picked up my car. So he was listening to Dan Bongino and we were talking about it. And right after he got out of the car, the radio kicked back on because I had turned it off, I was like, no, I don't want to listen to Dan Bongino. And we kind of have a conversation about his critique of the Secret Service. Fine. Whatever. I turned it back on and he was, like, I can get together on some positions and find some agreement. I thought, okay. Then he goes, "But the liberal scum can't." And I thought, my dad listens to this and he doesn't think Dan Bongino is talking about me, but he is.  

Beth [00:24:11] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:24:11] He's calling me liberal scum. Just like when Roe V Wade got overturned and I had people all over Facebook saying they're not going to arrest anybody. No one's going to die. You're being hyperbolic. But that's exactly what's happened. And so I do think it's important to say that to people. They're talking about me. If you do have people in your life who are of the opposite political persuasion and he talks that way, he's talking about me. He would grab you by the pussy if he wanted to because he's famous. And when you're famous, they let you do it. It's just that simple. And I really like it. I thought Matt Iglesias had a great observation when he said all these people who are like, "Well, he wouldn't do that. He didn't do it last time." Yes, because all the people who stopped him came out and said, "I stopped him, but I won't be there again." I stopped him as the National Security Advisor, the Secretary of Defense, or of his chief of staff. I stopped him from using nuclear weapons, but I won't be able to be there and do it again.  

[00:25:18] So it's that gap between I want to use violence. I want to be able to do what I want to do because I think I'm right. And that doesn't scale, and so I might get swept up in some of this is big. It's big. I was having this conversation about the shooting between the sheriff and the judge in Whitesburg in eastern Kentucky here where we live. And this sense of I take the law into my hands. I get to do what I want because I know it's the right thing to do. And there's just a big piece of the country. And I do think it overlaps a lot with education level that doesn't understand and hasn't analytically played out what happens when there's no rule of law when just my side, as long as it's my side, gets to do what I want, that'll always work out for well for me. It doesn't always work out well for you. The scalability of that is fraught. I mean just the list and list of people who he has discarded, including his own vice president. The cognitive dissonance is strong. It's strong.  

Beth [00:26:31] And we know some of what they stopped, but we don't know all of what they didn't. We're just learning because of the release of Bob Woodward's book about him sending Covid tests to Vladimir Putin.  

Sarah [00:26:42] Not even Covid tests, the actual machines we needed to run the Covid test. It's mind blowing.  

Beth [00:26:47] I mean, think about that. It is mind blowing. And he did that at the expense of American citizens.  

Sarah [00:26:56] Yeah, people died because we didn't have enough of those machines 100 percent. No doubt about it.  

Beth [00:27:01] Directly and indirectly empowering Russia in a moment of world crisis at the expense of America. That's what he did. And we just learned about it. So there are lots of things that we don't even know from that first term. That while people of good faith tried to stop the big things, all the little things piled up. And all those little things contributed to where we are today. I think it's really hard to properly apportion responsibility for where we are today. And you hear that in the discussions about the economy. We feel it as we hear that American troops are going to go to Israel now with a missile defense system. And I think it's probably fair to say that almost no one wants that. Whomever you're voting for, whatever party you are, I think almost no one wants to see American troops in the Middle East.  

[00:27:53] And I think President Obama made a good point in saying the actions you take as president take a while to germinate. I don't think anybody really wants to hear President Obama say that was my economy that Trump inherited that felt so good for a while, but I think there's a lot of truth in it. And I think nobody wants to hear that the situation in the Middle East and the situation with Ukraine and Russia can be traced back in many ways to the Trump presidency. But I think that's the reality of it. And I cannot imagine how frustrating it must be for Kamala Harris to have to explain why she doesn't own all the worst views of where we are today without sounding like she's making excuses and without sounding like she can't handle what she's walking into. That has to be so frustrating. And I believe that she can handle it. And I believe all of those reasons. I just don't know how to get everybody else there or a meaningful percentage of everybody else.  

Sarah [00:28:55] Because this is higher level thinking that takes education. I don't know how to say it any more plainly. Analytical thinking, learning to recognize and ignore cognitive dissonance, not learning not to throw good money after bad, recognizing these thought patterns, understanding the difference between tragedy of the commons and long term gain for short term pain. All of these things are hard to do. They take practice and I'm not perfect at them. But that level of thinking as opposed to emotional, reactive, driven by short form video and entertainment, all of that-- this is not a moral judgment. Hear me say that. This is not a moral judgment, but it is an observation that I stand by. I see it in the people I know and love. I don't love people any less because I see them making these logical fallacies or stepping into these analytical holes. But that is what's happening and it's hard to witness. It's hard to witness as a voter, as a candidate and navigating that. Which I think if I'm being brutally honest, I think the best person that does that is Bill Clinton. Happy to see him out in rural swing states talking with people on smaller scales because I think bill Clinton is brilliant, but he never comes off that way in his speeches. He doesn't do the professorial thing. He doesn't do the policy wonk thing. He doesn't do that. And honestly, I don't think Kamala does either.  

Beth [00:30:40] No.  

Sarah [00:30:40] I don't think she does that. I think she's pretty good at it. But I think the problem is that as a woman you don't get warm and connective if you are good at not slipping into intellectual speak, you get shallow and vapid. So I think she's good at that, but I think sometimes-- a friend of mine said, "Well, I know she's not dumb, but sometimes she sounds dumb." And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" But that's what happens when you're a woman. When you do that, when you don't slip into the over intellectual, it's the double bind, right? If you're nice, you're dumb. If you're smart, you're mean.  

Beth [00:31:20] Yeah. And I do think she has thread that needle as well as it can be thread, but it is hard. I was trying to think about what she can do now because I think her biggest problem is Joe Biden. I think trying to figure out what's responsible when the diplomatic scene is so fraught because every time she speaks she doesn't get to just be a candidate, she has to be the vice president, too. And she has to be the vice president of a president who is not communicating well right now. He's not. I was thinking about these troops going over there and how badly America needs a message from the Oval Office explaining what is going on here, what the limitations on it are, what the purpose is, why it's worth that sacrifice. And Joe Biden can't do that right now. So she's saddled with that. She's saddled with the way in which she came to be the Democratic nominee. And I think a genuine care and affection for Joe Biden's feelings. She's saddled with the fact that lots of people around Joe Biden keep making his feelings a story.  

Sarah [00:32:27] Lord  

Beth [00:32:29] So while she is doing the women if they're smart are mean and if they're nice are dumb dance, she also has to do this whole other dance for and about and because of President Biden. So I was trying to think about if I worked on her team and I were hitting the whiteboard right now, what are we going to do? The only idea I have, which is a pure whiteboard moment, is I wonder what it would be like if she announced that because they've raised $1 billion, she's not going to fundraise anymore.  

Sarah [00:33:02] She hasn't been.  

Beth [00:33:04] I think, though, announcing it. We're stopping all the text messages. Make a thing out of it. You are not going to get any more text messages from Harris-Walz. We are going to give this percentage to down ballot races because we desperately need this. They're doing it anyway. Make a big splashy thing of it. The low information voter, I think, might really like hearing I care about fiscal responsibility, $1 billion is enough for a campaign. We've got it. We have a plan. And this is how going to run the government. I'm not going to take more money than I need from the tax base. I'm going to plan. You know what I mean? Make that a strength instead of a weakness. Because right now my husband when he has $1 billion, he hates that. I think all of us feel icky about the campaign finance situation. So I'm just trying to think of ways that she could gain some attention with low information voters that are positive, that are authentic to her, that help her make that case for that tiny sliver that's left.  

Sarah [00:34:00] I don't think the low information voters knows that she's raised $1 billion. I don't think that broke through.  

Beth [00:34:05] But I think it might get to them if she announced she wasn't going to do fundraising anymore because people do hate, hate, hate the fundraising.  

Sarah [00:34:15] I think some people do. It doesn't bother me when she says that she's raised $1 billion because I know how much the Trump campaign has raised. And I know that Elon Musk is making it his personal mission to elect Donald Trump, so it doesn't bother me a bit. I think with the Joe Biden of it all, the real miracle that I'm coming around to with Joe Biden stepping aside is that he both did something that I think is ahistorical and impossibly hard, which is to give up power while also being seemingly the pettiest person alive. And if you read deep profiles of Joe Biden, those two things do seem to live side by side with him. A real pettiness, but also like a deep empathy for the world. It's wild, man. I'm kind of intrigued by it, but it's seemingly true. I don't want to read any more about that. Stop. Just cut it out. It's embarrassing to you at this point. These people who are leaking your hurt feelings as the current president of the United States of America, just stop. Please. I'm begging you.  

[00:35:31] And, look, I think his legacy will still be that headline that he gave up power, that he put country first. Fifty years from now, 100 years from now, that's all anybody will know about Joe Biden. Good for him. But right now while we're in a race that is this close, just stop, coordinate with the campaign. Stop it with being butthurt. I thought that all you cared about was making sure Donald Trump was not going to be president anymore. It's going to take everyone. It's going to take Bill Clinton at McDonald's in rural Michigan and Barack Obama laying down a word for black men and you coordinating everything you do with her campaign. It takes all of it. Please, I'm begging you.  

Beth [00:36:19] I also wish every time I see Bill Clinton out there doing that small work, that very unglamorous work that he definitely doesn't have to do at this point in his life-- I think he likes it. I think he enjoys it. And that's why it's good. That's why it works. But when I see him out there doing that and I think about Mitt Romney being like, "You know who I'm going to vote for, but I'm not going to say it because I want to have influence in the future," that also makes my head nearly explode. That Dick Cheney can go as far as Dick Cheney has gone and Mitt Romney and George W Bush and a whole bunch of other people who I don't even know if it would matter if they said anything, I still want them to say it. I still want everybody to leave it all on the field because if you get in the numbers, who knows what is the tipping point. It has to all be left on the field here. And I want all of them out there doing this, too.  

[00:37:20] I appreciate what Bill Clinton's doing right now. I think it's quite redemptive in fact. And redemption is a great storyline. Americans love it. Listen, so much of the state of Kentucky right now has re-fallen in love with Rick Pitino. All he had to do is come back to Rupp Arena to support Mark Pope and get excited about it. And everybody who was like, I remember when you went to coach and our bitter rival, the University of Louisville, all is forgiven now because you came back and you did the thing. So I just want that to be the whole vibe of this election. Everybody who understands truly how dangerous it would be for Donald Trump to be the president again, leave it all on the field. Do it.  

Sarah [00:38:03] Because that's where my husband and I got what the 46%, is that so much of this is still the legitimacy of the Republican Party and people who just cannot fathom voting for a Democrat. And so anyone who holds a piece of that institution through history, through genetics, I don't freaking care, to come out and say enough is enough. He's not a Republican. You won't be a bad Republican if you don't vote for him because he's not a Republican. He is a charlatan and we can all see it and you should be able to see it, too. And it's okay. Forget George W Bush. Forget Mitt Romney. Tillis, you live in North Carolina. You're seeing what's happening right now. You know that this man is spreading lies about your state in its most vulnerable moment. Shame on you. Shame on you  

Beth [00:39:19] Mike DeWine.  

Sarah [00:39:20] Did Mike DeWine say he's not voting for Donald Trump?  

Beth [00:39:22] No, Mike DeWine said "I'm still voting for him, but he lied about my state and it was painful and it caused us problems." Also, for a lot of these people, if it's really about the policies (let's go back to Mike Johnson it's about the policy) none of these people believe that tariffs are the solution to our economic problems. Every single one of them could give you the best version of themselves as a politician by lecturing about why that's a bad idea. It is not about the policies. It is not. It's about whether there is going to continue to be a fundraising apparatus for candidates with an R beside their name. And that's, again, why I think she ought to make a big splash about not fund raising, because you can then contrast to the absolute grift of the Trump campaign that it's only about money for him. And it's only about money for a lot of these people who support him when they don't support anything that he wants to do.  

Sarah [00:40:16] Well, I think the billion dollars is probably already spent down ballot or in the race. I've never been on the back end of the finances of a presidential campaign, but I would imagine that it's pretty intense. And I don't mind her continuing to raise money because I would like to leave it on the field. And also, if there's money coming in at the last minute that can go ahead and sit in an account and we can start building for 2026 on the off chance that he does win, that's important to me as well. But I take your point that anything she can do to say I'm different, but how is it not abundantly clear at this point? How do we need to shake it up when he's standing there for 30 minutes bopping to YMCA?  

Beth [00:41:03] And that's another reason I want more of these Republicans to come off the sidelines because she has carried that ball as far down the field as I think she can. She's promised a Republican in the cabinet. She's promised a bipartisan committee to review policy decisions. She is saying he's not a normal Republican. Normal Republicans, thumbs up. Good deal. We need to work together in our government. That's what the American people want. He's not that. And the more people who can say that-- because it looks a lot of these numbers now look like the generic ballot. And that's so depressing that the numbers look like nameless, faceless Democrat versus nameless, faceless Republican. And on the ground it is 2024 Donald Trump who is shockingly different from 2016 Donald Trump in bad ways. And Kamala Harris who has bent over backwards to not be a generic Democrat, at a lot of risk to herself in terms of the party and the way people feel about her and the statements that they're willing to make online. I felt for the last week that a lot of the progressive base is now just making sure everybody knows that they're not pleased with this. It's kind of Joe Biden's feelings are hurt. The progressive’s feelings are hurt. Everybody is not pleased with where this is going. And in the meantime, she's just trying to win this election because what is the alternative?  

Sarah [00:42:36] Yeah, I'm in a really dark place with that he's even worse with 2016, and that it's still close because he is clearly aging, obviously. We all age. He is no different despite all the A.I. images of him arm in arm with Jesus Christ himself. And I think it's becoming more and more apparent, it's not surprising, presidential elections are stressful. I would imagine two assassination attempts are stressful and the stress is clearly wearing on him. I think that he has less energy. I think he is less coherent. And I think that he is struggling and it's obvious and I am glad that the media is beginning to cover it in the way that they cover Joe Biden's very real and continued struggles with aging.  

Beth [00:43:30] I agree. It is also a struggle to see people using images of him that are fake in waders helping with hurricane relief as though he would ever help with the hurricane relief. What part of what we know about his character makes us believe that he would for a second roll his sleeves up and get involved in that way.  

Sarah [00:43:52] But that's the problem, right? They know a different character. I'm switching the use of the word character, but perhaps that's where we're at, is that it's not his character. He is a character to these people, to the people who are ride or die with him. He is a caricature of a savior.  

Beth [00:44:13] And that's why it's so difficult to answer sincere questions from listeners who say, "How do I talk to someone who says what Mike Johnson said?" That he's not running for class president. I don't think he's the greatest person. I just have to believe in the policies. Because I don't think it's about that. And I'm not sure what any of us can say in a loving way that would make a difference other than to just keep kind of saying like, "Hey, do you hear how he talks about me? Do you care that he thinks I'm an enemy of the state because I am not loyal to him? Does that matter to you? Would you let someone like me in government because all of the people like me who have spent their whole careers learning how to make government work are at risk? He has said anybody who pushes back against him is going to go. It's all about people who are loyal to him. Do you not think that I have anything to contribute here?" I don't know other than really making it personal what could potentially be effective.  

Sarah [00:45:20] Yeah, I think that saying as clearly as we can those realities. And I've even thought about getting back on Facebook and starting to share some stuff on Facebook about what I'm thinking. Because I do think we've given up. I feel myself giving up with a certain group of people. But social pressure is real and it does have an effect. And I do think making it clear that he's talking about me, I feel a real sense of insult and threat when he talks. I don't want my children listening to the way he speaks about women. I don't want them to learn that that's an appropriate way to talk about our fellow human beings. I don't want to live in a country where we deport millions of people because I don't want to go back selfishly to the time where we didn't have enough labor for anything. Just for the record, just on the most pragmatic level I can speak to. But I just think that we have to, especially when it comes to men-- back to your point about the gender component of all this. We have to continue to influence each other.  

[00:46:36] Men come to feminism through the lived experiences of the women around them. And it makes me sad that there's this sense of like men are lost, men are broken. Because I do have three boys and I don't want them to feel that way and I don't feel that way about them. And so that sense that we're in this together whether we like it or not, we have to hold on to that. Even at peak anxiety, even at peak frustration, peak anger. It's so hard. It's just so hard right now in particular.  

Beth [00:47:26] It's so hard and we are not alone. And I hope that we find a lot of comfort in that and a lot of inspiration and encouragement. And 19 days left, we just all have to do what we think is the best use of our influence and power over these 19 days so that we know that we left it all on the field. And I know we'll continue to talk about what those ways are and how that's going. We love it when you all share stories with us of what you're out there doing. We had a listener offer to just watch people's kids at the park while they go vote. That's the work of democracy. That's beautiful. And that's the kind of thing that we are all capable of doing. Whatever our means, personalities, we can find a way where we are to make a difference. And we know that you're doing that and we appreciate you for it.  

[00:48:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:48:24] Sarah, we always in the episode with just a good exhale, something totally outside of politics. And you and I both knew that we need to recharge our batteries a little bit right before the election because it's going to be a long couple of weeks here. And we found some space to do that in October in extremely different ways. So you want to tell everyone about your fall break?  

Sarah [00:48:45] Yeah. We get a full week for fall break in my school system, which is fabulous. It is the best time to travel to the national parks in my personal opinion because they are not very crowded or hot. And so last year we went to Yosemite. This year we went to Yellowstone. I think my husband summed it up best. He said Yosemite is awe inspiring and Yellowstone is baffling. It's just a weird place, man. Lots of weird things happening in the ground over there. Steam, mud volcano, which I didn't even know were words you could put together. Geysers. There are a thousand geysers in the world and half of them are in Yellowstone National Park. So seeing that sort of geological reality will really put you in your place in Yellowstone National Park. And also it was a great time for wildlife because they're all getting ready for the winter. And so we saw four grizzly bears, a mom and her three two year old cubs. We saw bison upon bison upon bison. We saw elk and mule deer and a coyote. It was incredible. We had perfect weather. We saw the Tetons. It was just a really, really great trip. I highly recommend a trip to Yellowstone if you need some grounding in your life.  

Beth [00:50:03] You said perfect weather. That's a little chilly for you, right? Tell us more about the weather this time of year.  

Sarah [00:50:08] It wasn't bad. It was like 60s during the day, 70s, low at night, 30, 40. So not bad at all. I could have taken it to be colder, actually. My peak temp is 48.  

Beth [00:50:20] Well, I know this about you. I know you like it to be a little chilly. That's why I wondered, wait, what are we talking about?  

Sarah [00:50:23] It was nice and chilly in the morning, but it warmed up during the day. But if you try to go to Yosemite or Yellowstone during the summer, it's not just that it's hot, it's that you're going to be spending a lot of time in the car waiting to get into parking lots. It's very, very crowded.  

Beth [00:50:37] How did it go for you because you kind of had a big group. Your parents joined y'all as well. How did you find traveling as a big group to Yellowstone?  

Sarah [00:50:45] We love traveling with my parents because we have three kids. So that way we just get to hotel rooms and one kid or two kids goes sleeps in their room. It works out really great. We took a Ford Expedition or a minivan usually. So it's a really great multigenerational situation we have when we travel together.  

Beth [00:51:03] Why we end up in really different direction, my kids don't get a fall break. They get like a Friday and Monday. Awful long weekend. We're such fun parents that Jane had some dental work done on that Monday that she had off. So our trip was not about fall break. A year ago, almost on Thanksgiving last year, our good friends asked me if we would have any interest in going to see Garth Brooks at his residency in Las Vegas. And I said I would absolutely love to do that and I would love to make that Chad's Christmas present because we like to give experiences for Christmas. He loves Garth Brooks. He loves Las Vegas. He loves traveling with his friends. It all comes together. So that was his Christmas present. We planned it.  

[00:51:41] We had such a fun day on Thanksgiving knowing that we were planning it, but that it was going to be a surprise for him. And fast forward to this past weekend. We left on Friday morning and came home on Sunday night. Very quick weekend in Las Vegas. Just the four of us as friends. No kids. And it was perfect. Las Vegas is not usually for me, but this was so relaxing because we've been before. Nobody was trying to see Las Vegas. We really went to go see Garth Brooks. And so we organized our time around really delicious food and two shows. We saw Garth Brooks, and then we did the magician's study, which I'll talk about in a second. That was really fun. And we took a lot of naps. I have not felt so relaxed in months. It was a really peaceful, wonderful time.  

Sarah [00:52:28] A peaceful time in Las Vegas.  

Beth [00:52:31] I know it feels like we pulled something big off that way. I could have stayed another day, which I've never said about Las Vegas. I could stay another day. I want to tell you about the magician study. Do you know about this? It's secret. So you don't get instructions on where it's happening until the day of. It's not like a named magician and you don't know who it's going to be. But they send you the instructions, you show up. You've got a little passcode phrase to say at the entrance to get in, and they start out with a big rabbit head over the magician. It has a very weird vibe and it's a small group there.  

Sarah [00:53:06] Masked singer.  

Beth [00:53:06] Yeah. There might be 50 or 60 people. It's really small, which is a nice feeling in Las Vegas where everything's massive. And it was hilarious. It was such a funny show. I did not realize it was going to be funny. I just thought my friend Brian likes magicians; we'll go see a magician. Fine. It was so entertaining and so special and so unique. I would do it again in a second. I really recommend checking this out if you want to take a trip and do something there that has kind of an intimate vibe and that is going to feel really different than almost anything else you can do.  

Sarah [00:53:39] It does sound fun. I don't love Vegas mainly just because my throat itches the whole time I'm there because of the smoking. But I'm delighted that you had a peaceful time in Vegas. Who knew you could even do such a thing.  

Beth [00:53:54] Well, and I think going to someone like Garth Brooks where if you're in a live music setting with someone where you know all the people there are going to know every word of every song and it's going to be a massive sing along, that's just a good thing to do. It's especially a good thing to do before an election. It just feels connecting and peaceful and wonderful. And his residency is very cool because it's smaller than the arena tours. He has so many talented musicians with him and so it just couldn't have been any better. It was lovely. I felt like Saturday was the perfect day. I took a nap. I had an amazing Italian dinner. I sang with people to Garth Brooks' music. It was perfect. What more could I want?  

Sarah [00:54:34] Yes, I agree. Standing in the shadows of the Grand Tetons, or watching Steamboat Geyser go off and tower over my head, or watching a grizzly bear stand up, it all just gives you some important perspective, especially in election season, that there are things that existed before and will exist long after. It's always a good reminder.  

Beth [00:55:00] We hope that you are finding some spaces for peace and fun and connection with your people this fall as well. Thank you for letting us be a small part of that. I love that we're all together through election season. And we are really, really together in our premium community which is, as we mentioned, now on Substack. So if you're looking for more great people to know, more conversations that are going to fill your tank instead of deplete it, I hope that you'll check us out there and we'll be back with you on Friday. Until then, have the best week available here.  

[00:55:31] Music Interlude. 

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.  

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.  

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.   

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