Congress, the Gerontocracy, and Barbenheimer

TOPICS DISCUSSED

Congress
The State of the Republican and Democratic Presidential Primaries
Barbenheimer and the Hollywood Strikes
Outside of Politics: Our Summer Sabbaticals

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EPISODE RESOURCES

We’ll be opening up ticket sales for the Pantsuit Politics Live in Paducah on October 21 next week to our Premium Members first. Get information about our weekend in Paducah here.

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello and welcome to Pantsuit Politics. We are thrilled to be back together after our summer sabbaticals. Today, we're going to be catching up with everybody- Congress, Biden, Hollywood. We're going to talk about aging senators and further criminal indictments. And I'm confident, most importantly, we're going to be talking about Barbenheimer. Outside of politics, we're going to check in with ourselves this time about our summer sabbaticals.

Beth [00:00:53] Before we jump into all of that, we are very excited to host our first Pantsuit Politics Weekend in Paducah, Kentucky this fall. If you've been listening to our show for any length of time, you know that Sarah is from Paducah and is the appointed ambassador for Paducah.

Sarah [00:01:09] It's the best place.

Beth [00:01:10] Her passion about Paducah knows no bounds.

Sarah [00:01:12] That's right.

Beth [00:01:13] We're very excited to share her favorite place with all of you. We will have a series of events over the course of the October 21st weekend that will culminate in a live event with hundreds of our closest friends, all of you, on Saturday night. We'll have lots more information on our website, which is linked in the show notes. But what we really want to share with you is that tickets go on sale next week. We will roll out those ticket sales to our premium members, followed by sales to the full community on Monday, August 14th. Please have grace with us in this process. This is our first attempt at a weekend event. We are constrained in ways with the physical event that we are not in making a podcast. There are events with limited capacity because of seats. It's just a different ballgame. So if you've been considering becoming a premium member, this week is a great time to do it in advance of the ticket rollout so you have first dibs on those tickets. And to everyone, we are just very, very excited about the opportunity to spend time with you in person.

Sarah [00:02:08] Yeah, y'all, Paducah is not a metropolis-- it's a small town. We have limited capacity. Plan accordingly, is what we're saying. All right. Next up, we're going to catch up with the gang.

[00:02:29] Music Interlude.

[00:02:29] Beth, let's catch up with the gang, which I think we should catch up with the whole entire gang. And we should probably start with our most important branch of government as prioritized in Article One of the Constitution, the United States Congress.

Beth [00:02:42] Most important, least organized. It's fine.

Sarah [00:02:45] That's accurate. Sometimes it's charming, most of the time it's not (their chaotic energy) especially in the House, where Republicans are in the majority and it's a little hectic over there. They're flirting with impeachment. They're very concerned about Hunter Biden's plea deal, which also had some very chaotic energy last week. They're holding Mark Zuckerberg in contempt and they're floating some test balloons about a government shutdown in the fall. So lots going on over the summer.

Beth [00:03:16] You can tell that Kevin McCarthy is just in a world of hurt After the debt ceiling negotiations. He kept everybody together. He exceeded expectations. He did a better job leading us through that than I thought he could for sure. And now he has different factions of his caucus big mad about something. I read this morning that some of the old guard is really unhappy with where the National Defense Authorization Act stands. That is must pass, always do it, usually bipartisan legislation. But because some of the folks who are big mad about the debt ceiling have attached a lot of their pet priorities to this, the old guard is starting to say, "How long are we going to let the tail wag the dog here?" And in the middle is Kevin McCarthy, who negotiated away his power to remain speaker through these difficult moments in order to get the job.

Sarah [00:04:12] I did not fall ill over the summer or bump my head. I just want to announce that before I say this. Kevin McCarthy has earned a type of begrudging respect from me. Seems like every time we come to one of these memos where we're like, "How's he going to do it?" He somehow thrives and flourishes in those environments. So I do feel like this far right faction seems -- I don't know if emboldened is the right word, maybe just desperate. Because they are running out of these procedural, we've always done it bipartisan, they're not up for debate, pieces of the puzzle for them to hold hostage. And I think they sense that. And some of that energy-- we're going to have to take a minute and talk about the Senate-- is coming from Tommy Tuberville and his military blockade. Which I think began as sort of a sole endeavor on his part to hold up military nominations because he isn't happy with the Department of Defense's policy post the return of Roe v Wade to provide support, financial and otherwise, to members of the military who need to get an abortion.

And so, he's just holding everything up fully and completely. And at first it felt like everybody was sort of like, "What are you doing, Tommy?" And now this far right faction, the Senate, and the House is looking at it and going, "Oh, I don't know, maybe this is a good way to really take things hostage, to use the Department of Defense in these things we've always approved." We've got three members over in the House of the Rules Committee threatening to kill military legislation if these amendments aren't passed. And now they're not just talking about the abortion. They want limits on medical care for transgender troops. They want to roll back climate change policies. They want to get the Pentagon's diversity inclusion programs. So they swept up all this stuff. And I just think, like, how did we get here? How do we get here when they're mad at the military for being woke? I mean, Chick-fil-A and Cracker Barrel were one thing, but now the military is too woke for them, really? Okay.

Beth [00:06:24] I was really struck reading about Senator Tuberville to see that Lindsey Graham, in encouraging him to release his hold on these military promotions, said, "You can be mad about a policy, but we have to accept that we lost an election."

Sarah [00:06:43] What? I want to sit with that a minute.

Beth [00:06:46] And that to me is like at last, the fact. The problem with some of these small groups is not that they have insufficient ability to advocate for their priorities, it's that they do not want to lose anything ever. They don't want to give an inch on anything ever. And we just saw the Democratic Party go through its own version of this under Speaker Pelosi's tenure, when you had some pretty far left people come in and really want to make their stamp and leave their mark. And there was this gradual process where they learned we have a greater opportunity to advocate for our priorities when we're on the team, when we're on board, and we are able to move things forward. And so, I'm trying to have some patience with all of this for Kevin McCarthy, because, as you said, he has done a much better job getting them through this than I anticipated that he would. I hope that he can convince some of his folks you got to stay on the team. That's how you make your mark. But being on the team means that you are also willing to lose sometimes.

Sarah [00:07:48] Well, and being on the team means, in the best case scenario, being in the majority. And that really is a team endeavor. So when your centrist members are saying, "Cut it all the way out, if you want us to gain any numbers," you should maybe listen to them. And, look, Democrats aren't always great at that either. But Nancy Pelosi sure as heck was leading through that. And I don't know if Kevin McCarthy will be. I think as much as I have gained a type of assurance in his leadership, we have the opposite problem in the Senate right now. We have Mitch McConnell experiencing, I think, what can only be described as some type of medical event. During a press conference last week, he froze up for 30 seconds and was then escorted out. He looked ill and stumbling before he froze and when he was talking. I was talking to my friend Leslie and she's like, "I can't stand Mitch McConnell. I think he's evil and has wrought massive damage on our country. And still I watched this and felt such sadness and sympathy for him." You do not want to see someone in such distress on live television like that.

Beth [00:09:03] All I could think about was his daughters or his wife or anyone who loves him. The pain of watching someone you love in such a public place have a moment like this. Especially someone whose entire public life has been about control. Mitch McConnell is a lot of things, but one of them is that he is always in control. He never goes off script. He doesn't blunder. He is so concerned with always keeping his eye on the strategic objectives in front of him. So for this to happen so publicly, just has to be really painful for all them. I agree, I do not like, respect, or admire Mitch McConnell. But I am really sad that this happened and I think it has to be a uniquely painful experience for this family, given his prioritization of control of himself at all times.

Sarah [00:09:59] Well, and it just elevates another conversation ever present in American politics right now. I was just thinking, I have such admiration for Dianne Feinstein and such loathing for Mitch McConnell, and I do not want this for either of them. I do not want this for either of them. And it seems, particularly with her, that we have gotten to a place where she is incapable of retiring. And I don't mean like willpower; I mean maybe mentally. But you can't get a power of attorney to have someone resign their Senate seat. And it feels like we've gotten in the space with a lot of senators where they're basically too old and too out of it to resign and understand what's at stake. But that means also that they are too old or too out of it to do the job. And so it's just like this black hole that they get stuck in. And then you have these moments like with Mitch McConnell, that are so heartbreaking. And, look, I think this is hard. And I think I've been working through my own feelings about aging because obviously nobody wants to have this conversation with regards to Joe Biden. Although, it's not that I don't have the conversation. I've been having the conversation in my own head a lot. And it is so intense. You listen to Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, you listen to Carol Burnett or Jane Fonda, and I think they could run the country right now. It's just the stakes are so high and that the breadth of ability is so deep. It feels like people are hyper capable and then in an instant they're not. And I think that's what makes this conversation about our gerontocracy so difficult.

Beth [00:11:43] The trouble is the symbolism that we place on specific individual positions. Because this happening to Mitch McConnell is different from something like this happening to John Barrasso, who was standing right next to him and who I thought did an admirable job handling this situation. I really appreciated the way that he stepped in. I thought it was very respectful and dignified to everyone, the way John Barrasso reacted.

Sarah [00:12:06] Well, you can just tell his colleagues surrounding him, respect him and care about him. You could tell.

Beth [00:12:12] Yes, I thought so too. And it's different because he's the minority leader. He is a symbol. And it's different with Joe Biden because he is the president. And if Joe Biden had 20 seconds where he couldn't get his words out, that would have global ramifications.

Sarah [00:12:29] Yes.

Beth [00:12:30] So when you talk about the age of these leaders, you're not even really talking about age in a vacuum. You're talking about the age of a symbol. And what does that mean? And what risks are you willing to take around a position that carries so much weight, an unfair amount of weight? There was a really good piece in the Atlantic (that we'll find and link in the show notes) a few weeks ago about Joe Biden running again, and it was making the case that he should not. And I know that upsets people. In that piece, what really resonated with me was an acknowledgment that we do not all age the same way-- not even close. That age has tremendous value, and I think we've seen a lot of that during the Biden presidency.

Sarah [00:13:14] For sure.

Beth [00:13:14] And that you are really gambling at a certain point in life that you won't contract a virus that affects you in a much harsher way than it would have earlier in life, that you won't fall and really hurt yourself. You are in a situation where the House usually wins at some point because as we get older, our bodies have a harder time responding to things. And when you decide that you're going to take that gamble in a position that so much rides on, it is worthy of conversation about how much risk you and the country are willing to accept and how realistic you're being about the odds of being able to for another Senate term or another term of the presidency to run that risk?

Sarah [00:14:01] Two things. One, with Mitch McConnell, I think what bothers me is he understood the risk. You know how I know? Because the Kentucky State Legislature passed a law that took the power to appoint his replacement away from our Democratic governor. So he understood what could happen. That's why he did that in a very anti-democratic way, in my personal and humble opinion. And with Joe Biden, Griffin looked at me over summer break and he was like, "So he's going to run again, really?" And I was like, "Hey, I thought your generation thing was like we don't define people based on aspects of their identity and we let them define their personal experience and capabilities." And even just a minute ago, I kind of regret using the language "so old" because I just think old doesn't work anymore. What does that mean? Because it doesn't mean what it meant even 20 years ago. Eighty does not mean what it meant 20 years ago. We say all the time 50 is the new 40 and 60 is the new 50. We are always changing it, and for good reason. A certain subset of the population-- not the entire population, but a certain privileged subset of the population is living longer and healthier lives. And I think there's this tension where you have an elected individual who is empowered by the voters, but whose decision to run again or to resign is very individual. And that's just where we're stuck. It's sort of in that same black hole where people lose the mental capacity to retire and therefore do the job and then we can't do anything about it. And so, it feels like we need-- definitely in the Senate, I don't know about the White House.

I mean, let's be honest with ourselves. We've dealt with presidents who were not as old as Joe Biden, but who tackled these exact situations. Can we all agree that Edith Wilson was basically president for a couple of months. Isn't that what the history tells us? I just think especially with the Senate, it just feels like this is happening over and over and over again, that they need to discuss some sort of process when this happens. If you can prove in a court of law that this person does not have the capacity and needs a power of attorney, in the way you would with any elderly relative, why couldn't that apply with a higher standard of proof? I don't know, but it just feels like there needs to be some sort of process because when I was there in the early 2000s, there were discussions like this about several senators. There's always a discussion like this about several senators, and we just keep putting these people from both parties that we seemingly admire and respect for the impact of their careers and these really terrible positions.

Beth [00:16:32] I think in the Senate that discussion could be advanced more productively if age were one situation that we were talking about of many where people lose their capacity to focus in a holistic way on the job. Going through a divorce can really take you into a place where you need to step back from your responsibilities for a minute. Having some kind of personal financial crisis, experiencing a disaster.

Sarah [00:16:59] Sick child.

Beth [00:17:00] Like John Fetterman Situation with depression. When you are a part of a body like the Senate, you are one of many. We are enhanced by having people going through difficult life experiences in that body because they represent a whole country of people going through difficult life experiences. It's these singular positions, minority leader, President, where I think the stakes are really different. But for the body as a whole and in every workplace across America, having more discussion about how do we support people when they say, "I need a break. I need somebody else to step in for me in a meaningful way." And that is harder when you have been elected to represent folks. But we're capable of solving those problems.

Sarah [00:17:45] So that's relevant with the Senate. But let's also check in on President Biden and the Biden administration, which I guess will also function as an update on the judicial branch of our government, because they've been in conversation together over the summer. We had President Biden's debt relief program overturned by the Supreme Court. His asylum policy, which prevents migrants who pass through another country from seeking asylum in the United States, was struck down by a federal judge last week. So he suffered some defeats in the court, but he's still just hitting the road, talking about infrastructure, keeping it real positive I think.

Beth [00:18:21] All of those Supreme Court decisions have to be viewed on their own merits, I think. But overall, I really appreciated that his reaction to this court's term was fairly subdued. I think saying that this court isn't normal was the right way, as a Democratic politician who has some real disagreement with the court, but also values the court very much. I thought that was a pretty good definitive "I said what I said, I'm done discussing it now we're moving on" way to handle this.

Sarah [00:18:55] Well, and it's not just like that we're moving on. To me, what I was so encouraged by was with every decision, be it affirmative action or be the ongoing fallout from overturning Roe v Wade or this asylum decision, they were just there like, "Okay, we're going to do this instead. Okay, well, we're going to try this. Okay, well, then we're going to look at legacy admissions. We're going to just relieve some of this debt. We're going to continue with this policy. We're going to work on Texas with their ridiculous approach in the Rio Grande." I just felt it was just very action oriented. It just felt like I'm not going to rage. I'm not going to attack the legitimacy of the court. I'm going to point out what we all know, which is this is not a normal court behaving in a regular way. And so this is what my administration is going to do to move forward towards our goals. I just felt like it was very adult.

Beth [00:19:42] It's how you hope the government operates. I respect the opinion of the court, even if I disagree with it. I also have my priorities. I'm going to continue to work toward those priorities. For what it's worth, I think a normal court would have overturned the student debt relief program. I think President Biden himself had questions about the scope of executive power with respect to student debt relief. He took his shot, it didn't work. Fine. He's continuing to put one foot in front of the other around those policies. And that's how it should work. That's great.

Sarah [00:20:12] Well, and he's got some real economic headwinds at his back. It looks like we're going to come in for this soft landing. The unemployment numbers are good. The economic growth is good. He has all that now. It's still not showing up, I think, in the way that they would want it to show up in his approval ratings. But it's getting to the point where it's like hard to argue with even Americans' economic attitudes are getting better and moving in a more positive direction. And he has to be encouraged by that- him and his entire team.

Beth [00:20:45] I think that's true. I think he also respects sort of the gospel, according to sister Taylor, when she says things like familiarity brings contempt. I think he knows that just keeping your head down and doing the job is probably the best way to approach the American people right now. I think the campaign has his team feeling like they need to be out there talking Biden-nomics and putting his name and his stamp on things more. He personally seems to me, though, to not really be into that stuff. He just wants to do the job and keep a relatively low profile. And I think that's a really smart instinct.

Sarah [00:21:24] Yeah. I mean, he is running. He doesn't obviously have much of a primary challenger. I hate that he has any primary challengers, but we'll talk about that on a later episode. As far as the presidential campaign, all the action is happening on the Republican side. Beth, when we're checking in with people, we are going to have to check in with twice impeached former president Trump. Are you okay with that?

Beth [00:21:48] Well, we just have to be.

Sarah [00:21:49] We just have to be.

Beth [00:21:50] His calendar is very full. I think the most accurate, neutral statement that I could make about him is that his calendar is very full right now.

Sarah [00:21:59] His calendar is full. He's dealing with a lot of both legal and criminal liability. We're all waiting with bated breath. By the time you hear this episode, we might have already heard from Jack Smith on additional criminal liability related to the January 6th insurrection. He told us-- he does this a lot. He tries to tell us before the Department of Justice tells us that he is going to be indicted to try to dampen the impact. But I think he got in front of it a little too early or they're catching on. They're like, okay, we'll just let that die down completely and totally and make you look like you don't know what you're talking about. And then we'll release all the information. I don't know. But between that and I think we'll be hearing from Georgia very, very soon. We'll have the New York trial starting. They announced a date for the classified documents trial in May. And, of course, he keeps giving E. Jean Carroll more ammunition. It's overwhelming.

Beth [00:22:55] I am interested in all of these lawsuits because I am interested in the law as a general matter. And I followed the January six hearings very carefully as we did here on the show. I just want to so strongly caution against getting too wrapped up in the legal pressures surrounding the former president. I think putting that in one category and acknowledging that accountability for him and accountability for the system as it pursues him, which is supposed to be there as well, is going to be a long, winding process with lots of stops and starts. There is no narrative arc in the justice system the way that campaigns have a narrative arc. I also don't think anything will come from those accountability pursuits that materially change the dynamics of the race. The volume might be the thing that could change the dynamics of the race, but I don't think any factual components are going to come out that people aren't already well aware of. So I just hope that we don't feel too much pressure to ride the tide of every emotion and hearing and mini drama that plays out in the course of those lawsuits and criminal matters, the way that we might analyze and get invested in how he performs in a debate or what goes on at a rally.

Sarah [00:24:18] Yeah, you really just see the Trump sort of media environment struggle with how to deal with these lawsuits. It's clumsy. I'm not worried. I believe in justice. I believe in our justice system. I just am going to watch it play out, but you cannot let your emotions rise and fall on every emotion like that. We're going to be exhausted. He's going to be exhausted. We're really going to be exhausted. So I cannot envision a universe in which he escapes any liability from all of these lawsuits. That's what I believe. That's what I tell myself. Like, I just cannot fathom that situation. Could it happen? I suppose so. It seems highly unlikely to me. And not to brag on us, Beth, but I do feel like our instincts in this arena have shown to be pretty good especially when it comes to the one and only Ron DeSantis. I'm sorry, Ron DeSantis You have to say it both ways every time. You have to say DeSantis and then you have to say DeSantis, just in case you didn't know.

Beth [00:25:28] I did not know that that is our style guide around his name. I did understand that he was trying on different versions of his own name.

Sarah [00:25:36] You just got to say it both ways.

Beth [00:25:38] Which is a whole thing.

Sarah [00:25:38] You could alternate. You could just take turns if you want to. I think that's what he's doing.

Beth [00:25:43] I think I may just say the governor of Florida.

Sarah [00:25:46] Okay, that's fine.

Beth [00:25:47] The governor of Florida has never impressed me much. And I remember early on.

Sarah [00:25:54] Oh I got some Shania Twain in my head now. That don’t impress me much.

Beth [00:25:58] You think they're woke, but you got, whatever. I think that he has always seemed like someone who could not handle the big stage of a presidential campaign. And I remember listeners saying, "I think you guys are wrong. It's going to be him. He's going to get the nomination and he's the worst. And maybe that will still happen. I do not feel totally confident in our instincts because I do remember 2016. I just want to maintain some posture of humility. But I'm not at all surprised that his campaign has been every step of the way, a real disaster.

Sarah [00:26:34] Yeah, I was going to say the word you're searching for there is shit show. Yeah, it's a mess. It's a mess over there. And I just think it was very predictable. And I think what we said consistently was it's just too early friends. Still too early friends for anyone to accurately, with 100% certainty, say damn near anything about the 2024 presidential election. That's how I feel about it. As much as I can stake my claim on the certainty of our justice system, I can also stake my claim on the uncertainty of the campaign cycle. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the way we need to look at this. It's tough. I don't want to simplify this, but it's really hard to run for president. Better men than Ron DeSantis have fallen. The staffing is hard. The organization is hard. The fundraising is hard. The strategy is hard. And you've got to get it all together at once. And you kind of have to build the plane in the air or build it beforehand if you're a real political strategist, which is even more difficult. So, yeah, I just think it's wholly unsurprising that he has faltered in this way.

Beth [00:27:45] If I try to apply the lessons of the last two cycles, what I am trying to remember taking in coverage of the primary is how invested all of us are who are interested in politics, in there being ebbs and flows with the presidential campaign. It's kind of fun and exciting for every candidate in a crowded field to have a little moment, to have a little boomlet, a little surge. I remember having moments when we all thought Kamala Harris is going to be the Democratic nominee. No, wait, it's Mayor Pete. No, wait, Joe Biden just won South Carolina and suddenly it's all over. The drama of the whole thing captivates those of us who are interested in politics in a way that is wholly unreflective of the rest of the country. And so, I am really trying this time to say, even though I'm still interested in all that, because I am who I am and being interested in politics is part of that, I am trying to be much more grounded about how much that reflects reality and how much it's just a hobby.

Sarah [00:28:55] Well, if you are a hobbyist, we do have our first Republican primary presidential debate coming up. We do love a debate party. We love a debate watch-along.

Beth [00:29:04] I love a debate recap.

Sarah [00:29:05] Yeah, I love a debate recap. I just think the debate is like a good structure for the drama. Let's not create things. Let's just let them stand up there and say things that we can fight about, disagree with, laugh along with, or set to music, as the case may be. So that's coming up soon. Definitely stay involved with us on social media and we'll talk about it on the show and we'll definitely be doing some fun watch-along activities when the event actually happens. So get excited about that. Okay. Beth, I just think we've done our due diligence now and I would really like to talk about Barbenheimer.

Beth [00:29:36] Sounds good. I'm in.

[00:29:36] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:29:47] Beth, I'm an only child and I don't play sports. And so, a lot of the time when I was growing up, the activity that my family and I did together was go to the movies. Sometimes we would see a double feature and then another movie.

Beth [00:30:03] Wow.

Sarah [00:30:04] I think three is probably the most we saw in one day, but that was not uncommon. I really, really like to go to the movies. And so the situation where everybody was going to the movies together, like there were double features, people were dressed up-- I am literally tearing up right now. The idea that people would-- I got dressed up-- that people would dress up and go to a movie that's not Star Wars, let me just say that, it's just given me joy in my heart. My heart is filled with joy right now.

Beth [00:30:44] A personal goal that I'm working toward is to better embrace and exude enthusiasm.

Sarah [00:30:53] Yes.

Beth [00:30:55] And I'm going to go back to Star Wars for a second, because it is part of what inspired me. The last time I was with my family at Hollywood studios, the very last ride we did at about 9 p.m. was Star Tours. We had [inaudible] before, but there was no line. We were still kind of feeling the experience. So we get on Star Tours and it is now my children, my husband and me, and a whole bunch of fans-- serious Star Wars fans. And they are cheering and booing and just expressing themselves for the whole ride. And it was so fun. It was so much more fun than just being with people who are like, "Oh, well, that was interesting," which is how I go through life. Oh, well, that was interesting. And so, when Barbie came around, I thought, you know what? We're going to dress up for this. I'm wearing a pink suit.

Sarah [00:31:50] Yes, ma'am.

Beth [00:31:51] Chad is going to drape something around his shoulders like a preppy little Ken sweater. And we are doing the thing. And our beautiful friends, Jen and Brian, hopped in with us as did their sweet nieces, Haley and Olivia. We dressed up and I think it dramatically enhanced my viewing experience of the movie.

Sarah [00:32:09] My stance on this is clear. Any time there is dressing up required, everything is better. I just feel very strongly about this. So I was already excited about the Barbie movie because I played with Barbies. I loved Barbie and I love the shit out of Greta Gerwig, and I think she's a genius. So I was in it to win it. And then people were like picking out my Barbie outfit. And I was like, "Wait, what? We're getting dressed up too?" Because I love getting dressed up for Taylor Swift. I thought that 100% enhanced the experience, especially because everyone else was getting dressed up too. I know we all wrote soliloquies to our soft pants, but deep down we all don't want to wear yoga pants and tee shirts all the time. Doesn't mean we don't ever want to wear yoga pants and tee shirts, but we don't want to wear them all the time. Okay. And I think Barbie and Taylor Swift have proven that to us. So I was so excited. I had high expectations for the movie itself. It exceeded them. That film montage, Greta, pump the brakes, sister. I was weeping. Did you know that's like the film and cast and crews actual home movies? She gathered them from the people that made.

Beth [00:33:24] I love that. I wondered what was happening there.

Sarah [00:33:26] You could tell they were real home movies. And I was just like, Gretta, I'm not ready. I cried all my makeup off and I wear good mascara because I cry pretty often. I thought it was brilliant.

Beth [00:33:40] Well, I did not play with Barbies.

Sarah [00:33:42] You never played with Barbies?!

Beth [00:33:43] I had them, but I did not play with them. I just was not interested in them. Listen, I'm just going to admit it. I like being the age where everything is made for me in the world. It's just fun to be this age where they're like, "You know all the things you liked as kids. We're going to bring those back for you now. Now that you have money to spend, we're going to bring them back." Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like that is a just reward for making it this far in life. So I was excited about it. I really liked it. I do feel that I liked it for different reasons than for most of the people in my life and definitely than what I'm seeing online. So I did not get emotional with the home movies. I was thinking, what's going on here? I did not enjoy the monologue from the mom. What I loved about this movie was how beautifully I thought it captured the fact that play is how kids work stuff out. And much of the movie felt to me like adults working stuff out through play. And I love that. And the heavier handed moments I thought did not add points that weren't being made through the play and kind of took me out of the play. Now, look, that happens when you're playing too. This is not a criticism of the movie. I'm just talking about my experience of it. It is fair to have this movie about play and show that sometimes somebody gets tired of the play and gets big mad and needs to express their feelings. That's fine. I just felt that was real heavy compared to this delicate and smart way many of the same things were being expressed through the whimsy of the story.

Sarah [00:35:32] I think I maybe would agree with you, except for there's just this one line at the end of her monologue where America Ferrera says, "And if we put all that on women, how can we expect a doll to hold anything?" That little bit, that last line where she says, if we're holding all these issues about femininity as human women, what are we asking of Barbie? And I just thought that was it. I was like, yes, ma'am. Because you can't talk about Barbie without talking about feminism and femininity and answering all those critiques or at least holding space for those critiques. And so, I just thought that part when she just tied it right up, I was like, yes, ma'am. Because we have asked Barbie to do so much when she's a toy. She's a toy. And I just thought that was so great. I thought-- the beginning where they talked about all we had was Barbie dolls. And maybe you don't just want to play being a mom, because that's what I did with my Barbie.

I played being grown up. She had a house. Her and Ken had sex, you best believe it. I was trying to figure things out what it meant to be an adult woman through Barbie. And what she always the best model? Of course not. Just like the real women in my lives weren't always the best example, right? I think she just captured it so beautifully. Yeah. Of course, they're not. And she isn't either. And that's okay. Because the reason that montage was so affecting is she's saying like, "Yeah, guys. Of course, it's everything all at once. It's messy being a woman." And I just thought it was so, so brilliant. My only critique is actually that-- and I know this is controversial. I just think Ryan Gosling was like a little bit too old for that part. I'm just being honest.

Beth [00:37:24] Oh, interesting.

Sarah [00:37:26] I needed a little bit more baby face blankness to, I think, make that just right. And I just think he brought a little too much worldly wisdom. He can't help it. He's not quite perfectly handsome. That's what's so appealing about him to me and always has been, is that there's just a little bit that's not all the way there. And I know he starred on Disney and I can get there. I see why he's casting. I don't think it's a bad casting, but there was just a couple points that took me out of it where I thought, I wish this was somebody a little more blank. And he's not blank, that's why he's brilliant. He did a great job. I laughed heartily. I thought his musical performances were hilarious. I am going to purchase my husband a Ken Enough sweatshirt. I just loved it. But that was like the only thing that I would have tweaked just a little bit.

Beth [00:38:20] I want to go back to that last line of "If we put this on women, how do we expect a doll to navigate it?" I just thought the movie made that point without the punctuation of her saying it directly. I felt the same way about the introduction of the doll's creator, which I know a lot of people loved as well. I thought all of those points were being made throughout the movie without them being stated so explicitly. I vastly preferred that really unresolved moment that Margot Robbie had with the woman on the bench at the bus stop to the more direct conversation with the older woman in the film. So I think I just like that play leaves all this room for interpretation, and I think the movie would have been more enjoyable to me if some of that space had been left open instead of so directly tied up.

Sarah [00:39:11] Well, I don't think probably Greta would even disagree with you, because I read an article where they tried to make her cut that scene on the bench and she was like, "Absolutely not. It's a cul-de-sac. It's the heart of the film. It doesn't need to have a payoff." But she's working for Mattel. They're going to want it to be explicit and tied up neatly in this hardcore indie. Like, you can kind of see the influence. And I hate the criticism that I think she's getting that she's sold out. She's not this indie goddess anymore. And I'm like, "Whatever, you're all just jealous." That is the biggest domestic opening for a non superhero or sequel, and it's also the biggest opening in history for a female director. I'm thrilled for her. I'm sure she did make choices or decisions she might not otherwise have made, but that's the cost you guys. We're not going to get more movies like this and more non superhero or sequel films. They're not going to be perfect. There's going to be some sort of mass audience trade offs because that's how they make money. And I'm okay with that. I'm not mad at her. I do wonder what would this have looked like if Mattel had not been involved? It might've looked really different. But I'm still happy Mattel was involved and we got the giant, not CGI, fully built Barbie sets. That was incredible. And I'm glad we got Lizzo and we got Closer to Fine. Like, I just think if you love movies, you've got to leave space for that. I loved Oppenheimer, which is a very different film and I love that we like all put them together. I think it's great.

Beth [00:40:42] I think Mattel's involvement is a testament to the negotiations that she must have had with them in that the board of Mattel was made to look so ridiculous and out of step throughout the entirety of the film. I kept waiting for that to sort of resolve, and it didn't. It was just Will Ferrell being dumb with a bunch of people behind him being dumb. I don't have an opinion about the casting of Ken. I do have some feelings about the Kens and I'm not sure what they are. I'm still working them out. Which shows to me it was a great movie. You don't have to say everything about it was wonderful. But if you're walking away still thinking about it a week later, that's a great film.

I loved flipping the script and having Ken go from a world that was dominated by women to the world as it stands today and recognizing the difference. I thought that was superb. I do think the Kens took it a little hard. And I thought that the feminism in this movie-- oh, people are going to be so mad at me and I'm sorry. I thought the feminism in this movie felt a little dated. And I am looking for a different conversation about what it means. And I know that's hard to say in a world where the Supreme Court has overturned the right to an abortion. I understand that we're living some things that are a little dated too, and so maybe we're not ready to move on from here. But I think part of it was just that I sat in the movie theater between my husband and our friend Brian, who are two of the best men I know, and I just thought, like, "I don't love the way the Kens are being treated here." I want better for the Kens than this depiction, and so I'm still kind of working all that out.

Sarah [00:42:38] I went to see it with my husband and a friend and her husband too, and I kind of got there. Listen, I just said I wasn't happy with Ryan Gosling's casting, and then I'm going to talk past myself and say, I thought him and Margot Robbie, in their performance alone added the depth that I was looking for. When she was sad, she was like, I'm sorry I didn't see you. And it didn't have to be girls night every night. And when he would like close the door on her, but still wanted her in his life so badly. And I thought, okay, thank you. Don't make this so simple. Don't make this we're just going to go back to the way it was. I thought that was really beautiful and that kept it from feeling dated to me.

The quibble was less with the Kens for me because I thought Will Ferrell, all of that was more of a portrayal of corporate America than it was masculinity. And I kind of liked that. He was like, "No, it's about little girls. I don't care about making money." I thought that was kind of a great little turn. I did not like the portrayal of America's Ferrera's husband. That's the one that I was like, "Really, we're just going to do the dumb husband? We can't add any more depth to him? That's also her real husband. So I was like that's the only part that bugged me. I felt like they pulled the Ken stuff back enough that I really enjoyed it. And I thought they did a good job of riding that ship and saying, this is going to be different and we're not going to go back to exactly the way it was before. But they left that in a way that I thought, I don't love this guy's. I don't love that he's the duhm-duhm in this trio. But other than that...

Beth [00:44:10] I agree entirely about her husband. I think that was the problem for me. There wasn't really a place where we had a healthier way for the Kens or for men in general in the movie. I think that what really came across to me about the Kens is the idea that men can only be allies or competitors, but not really friends. That Alan, who had the least of that going on, had to take refuge in the women, couldn't be with the men. Like, had to separate because he was looking for real friendship. That Ken only knew how to be attracted to Barbie, but not be in a healthy, platonic relationship with her. And maybe that's the point that we're supposed to walk away and say, "Gosh, we make it really hard for men to just be friends." But I do think male friendship is something that's getting more attention and that is critically important to be depicted in film. And I wanted some moment of relief around that.

Sarah [00:45:09] Listen, maybe they're saving that for the sequel, because there will be a sequel if they ever go off strike.

Beth [00:45:16] I don't know. I just read where Greta Gerwig said she's spent. That she left it all on the field here, which I think is perfect. She should do that if that's how she feels about it.

Sarah [00:45:25] I want Greta to do whatever makes her heart sing. That's what's most important to me. And it's just interesting because all of this was in such interesting conversation with Oppenheimer, which couldn't be more of a different movie. Christopher Nolan and Greta Gerwig couldn't be more different filmmakers, right? I mean, Oppenheimer fails the Bechdel test miserably, even though there are two stellar female performances. Emily Blunt, talk about leaving it all on the field, kills it in that movie. But it's like all white men because that's the history. There were women at Los Alamos and they do play a role in this film, but it's pretty minor. But it's still brilliant. It's still so interesting. And it didn't feel like it was masochistic or misogynistic, for that matter. But it's still in such contrast to this Barbie land where there are so many women, and they're so diverse, and they're in conversation with each other, and they're in positions of power. And to watch them back to back like that was so interesting. And I just thought, can we have more of this, please? Which makes it so depressing in the context of the strikes.

Beth [00:46:32] It was visually stunning to see Barbie. I'm excited to see Oppenheimer. I think I'm going to do that later today, so I can't comment on it yet. But I am excited to have two movies that are not part of superhero franchises. And I love superhero franchises. I'm not upset about them at all, but they have been trying to be almost the sum of cinematic experience for a while now. I think Barbie is such a testament to how-- though there's like lots of juice left and I get that Barbie's existing IP too, But there are new stories to tell and there's a lot left to do creatively. We don't just have to keep recycling the superhero narratives. But you're right. The strikes make it hard to see how we take the momentum here and carry it forward. I hope that this time, where the future of Hollywood is really up for debate, is an inspiring time for creatives who are kind of waiting right now.

Sarah [00:47:30] Yeah, it's so hard. So the SAG-AFTRA, the Actors Union, is now striking. They are joining the WGA, the Writers Guild, which is almost I think at about 100 days into the strike. I read the most depressing article in Deadline that said, "The endgame is to allow things to drag on until union members start losing their apartments and losing their houses." One insider called it a cruel but necessary evil. And I think about our friend Chelsea Devantez, who is a writer, and that makes me want to strangle somebody. Truly makes me want to strangle somebody. That you have this beautiful moment where you see when you create something worth that enthusiasm, people flocked to the theaters. Even Oppenheimer, it made $82 million. And then still you're like, we'll just bleed these creatives dry and then crunch them into oblivion until they'll agree to anything so that we can just use artificial intelligence to crank out 16 Barbie movies because that's what you guys want. What? What the hell?

Beth [00:48:38] You and I had a conversation once about book reviews, and I told you that I don't read book reviews anymore for just about anybody's book. Because I have realized that a lot of people-- and I'm not talking about professional critics, I'm just talking about people in the world writing on Amazon and Goodreads. A lot of people who spend time on book reviews are people who would really like to write books. And so there is an edge to all of those critiques that comes from a place of consciously or not, there's a part of me that thinks I should have gotten the opportunity that you had when you wrote this book. And sometimes that is deserved probably more often than not. I would love to read more people's stories and thoughts and creations than just who the publishing industry blesses to have that opportunity. But I think that the attitude people have about the strike is tied to that sense that people who are able to professionally create to have the dream job, as a whole culture, we kind of roll our eyes and think that's not a real job. That’s because it would be amazing to get to write screenplays, it must not feel like work when you do it. You must be willing to do it for less pay. You must be willing to do it under any conditions. And it's not fair.

And it really takes for granted the fact that this kind of storytelling is our country's main export in the world. Economically, culturally, politically, philosophically, this is what America exports to the world and it has a huge imprint on how people view themselves and their civilizations. And we got to take that more seriously. I have been following and have been so excited to see the resolution of the UPS negotiations. I can directly imagine what happens if UPS goes on strike and it's really, really bad. And I don't feel that same kind of pain because there are a million shows on my streaming services that I am excited to watch and haven't gotten to yet. But that doesn't change the fact that that work still contributes to the economy in enormous ways and contributes to the culture in enormous ways.

Sarah [00:50:54] Yeah, I think the timeline makes this so difficult. I hope that they call for a consumer boycott of the streamers. I would happily join. Because I do think that we all just take in all the stuff. And I just feel like the last five years, 10 years in our culture, all we talk about is story. Story is so important. Story is who we are. And now we don't want to pay the storytellers? And I know it's hard to see actors and actresses that make millions of dollars on a picket line. I get it. But I'm not even mad at them. They sacrifice enormously for those roles. The sacrifice of your privacy is a big deal that you do not understand until you are living it. And we blow it off because they make a lot of money. Look, I've been having this conversation a lot in my life. I just think America has a really twisted concept of fame and wealth and we act like we're jealous of it. But deep down, when you ask people individually, nobody really wants to be that rich and nobody really wants to be famous because we know it'll tear your life apart.

And so, I don't know why we continue to talk like that about people who do these jobs. And that's definitely not what we're talking about when we're talking about writers. Creative tasks are enormously taxing in different ways. And we don't have to have this sort of like whose job is the hardest suffering Olympics. Like you said, this is an enormous export. It's just an enormous industry. You're talking about people in merchandising and licensing. It just goes and goes and goes and it touches so many aspects of all of our lives. And I really don't think we want it all created by artificial intelligence. I just don't. I don't. There would be no soul there. Greta Gerwig gave Barbie a soul in the way that little girls do or little boys do when they play with them in a real way, in a way I've never seen captured beautifully before. And that's so special. And it takes enormous vulnerability and work, and we should pay people for that. And I'm so angry at the way they're talking about this. We'll just bleed them dry. And I hope that under the incredible leadership of Fran Drescher (who'd have thunk it) and others, that they don't blink. That they say, no, you're not going to just grind us so we'll agree to everything. And I hope that they call on all of us who consume and love these characters and these stories to join them.

Beth [00:53:38] I think the executives who are sending comments to me like we're just going to bleed them dry are making the same mistakes that we make politically. Talking about the pressures on the industry is fair. Talking about it as though no money is being made is unfair. This does not have to exist in extremes. There are some hard questions here. There probably is some work that can be done by artificial intelligence in a way that benefits everyone. It is not going to be the heart of storytelling. So there's a middle ground to be found here, I'm sure of it. But I don't know how you find it if you are casting yourself and the other as hero and villain constantly. And I get that there is a propensity to do that in a storytelling industry. But here in the real world, we got to walk back from that.

Sarah [00:54:28] We are back in the real world and we've done our catching up.

[00:54:42] Music interlude.

[00:54:42] Beth, you want to talk about our summer sabbaticals before we sign off of this very long episode?

Beth [00:54:47] It's just helpful to step away. I think that having June to be a podcast listener was professionally very important to me. When I came back, you had been talking about the difference between a break and a sabbatical, and what has crystallized in my mind as the difference for me is that being away for the full month and being away for real-- not checking in much, not doing, oh, I'll just pick this up. Or if that's important, I'll get on that call or whatever. Really stepping away and being a podcast listener changed my experience of doing this work. I took a lot of notes about things that I personally want to improve, ideas that I have for our work. What it feels like to a listener when something changes in the shape of the episodes. It was just really clarifying and helpful. And I think it's a perspective that I couldn't have gotten any other way.

Sarah [00:55:41] Did you like this way better where we didn't take off at the same time? Did it feel easier?

Beth [00:55:46] I liked it much better. I felt able to be away for real. And it let me be a listener of our show. Not just other podcasts, but it let me be a listener of our show and experience our work both here and on our premium channels in a new way that just gave me new insights. So I really liked it. What about you?

Sarah [00:56:06] Yeah, I liked it better. I'm interested to hear from the audience how they felt not having like a defined summer series, but I liked it, was easier to prepare this way. It didn't feel like so much pressure to create something that then had to go and live without us there, which was always sort of a struggle by us. And so, I liked this way a lot better. I didn't feel like I was like carrying the load for two in June. It felt very easy. It felt doable in the summer when our kids are home, which is always really difficult. And I think I had this idea that like, well, my kids won't be home, they'll be at camp. But it's still taxing. It's just taxing in kind of a different way. Think I like this structure a lot. I think it felt like I gained some insight in June when I was sort of at the helm of the ship a little bit, although there was lots of sailing involved. And then definitely in July, we had an editorial meeting last week and it felt so energized, and I was overflowing with ideas. And that's why you have to have sabbaticals, man, because by the end of the spring I did not feel like that. I just felt like, what are we going to talk about?

Beth [00:57:11] I was really out of gas too by the end of this spring. I agree.

Sarah [00:57:15] So it's really nice to come back and feel energized. And that's why you have sabbaticals. So you have a break. I just think we have this Protestant work ethic where we think the grind, well, I don't know what. Even the word, what part of that word makes us feel like it's going to build something or give us more energy or leave us with enthusiasm. It's just not even a great word.

Beth [00:57:36] I've been observing in the month of July what our house feels like and how it feels different than it did a couple of years ago because I worked a lot in July, but I worked with a softness. I understood throughout the month that it's still summer. You and I are still doing something different. I don't have to address every detail of everything that comes up. I do need to save some things for us to talk about together because it'll be a better conversation and a richer one for the audience. And so, it allowed me to be more present with my kids and family. It also let me see that-- this kind of hearkens back to Barbie. Chad and I are both at home now working. And I think we both have found a better way to handle doing our jobs in ways that we're proud of, doing our work with excellence and integrity and commitment, but finding more of our partnership together in our rhythm with our kids. And I was reading a piece this morning about how many men are not employed and not looking for work and what that does to a person. And how in some ways, I think the author's perspective was definitely coming from a particular political persuasion. And I sensed a lot of, well, this is feminism's fault because women just took over everything and now there's nothing left for these men to do.

And it's a sad state of affairs. And I think what I have seen this summer is that there is a way of just trusting that we can both do a little bit less because we're both doing it. That there is a version of this where it's not one person's the breadwinner and one person's the caregiver and both of them are entirely burnt out. Or both people are the breadwinners and the caregivers and everybody feels like not enough all the time. There is a place where we can trust that our work can take a little bit less of us because there are plenty of people doing the work, and home can be shared in terms of responsibilities, and there's room left over now for us to just enjoy life. And that's been really eye opening and rewarding for me.

Sarah [00:59:41] Beth, how's your garden? That's what people want to know.

Beth [00:59:45] My garden is a scene. Sarah, I pulled out three 4 pound zucchinis from my garden.

Sarah [00:59:53] I told you you were going to be leaving zucchini on people's doorstep, did I not? Zucchini does not play.

Beth [00:59:58] I have never seen such a big zucchini in my life. And it was delicious. I made zucchini muffins. There's so much out there, and it's so fun to open my refrigerator and see that we grew half of it. It's incredible.

Sarah [01:00:14] Listen, the zucchinis come to play, okay? They're here to grow and proliferate more than any other vegetable in the garden, as this is what I've learned from my own small gardens. Remember what I'm known for gardening. Now I do have a question. Has the Canadian smoke affected your garden at all?

Beth [01:00:31] Not that I can tell, but I don't have a comparison because I don't have a control without the Canadian smoke. Everything looks good and healthy though. I have baby watermelons.

Sarah [01:00:42] That's exciting.

Beth [01:00:42] I have a baby cantaloupe.

Sarah [01:00:43] That's not exciting because I don't like cantaloupe, but I'm happy for you.

Beth [01:00:47] The corn is getting so tall. I have the beginnings of lots of butternut squash and I love butternut squash.

Sarah [01:00:56] And that'll last forever. You'll leave butternut squash on your counter for like three months. It doesn't care.

Beth [01:01:02] And it's just the best in the winter to have. There is nothing better than a butternut squash soup or a curry with butternut squash. It's a perfect vegetable, really.

Sarah [01:01:10] It's true. Well, I'm very excited for you. That's awesome. I did not grow anything in the summer, obviously. I was talking with my friend the other day that I thought because our summer was so full, the kids were going away to camp and then we were going to go travel that it would be easier. I don't know why I thought that because it was just intense in a different way and we're just dealing with a lot of shifts and transition. We have Griffin going to high school in the Fall.

Beth [01:01:36] That's big.

Sarah [01:01:36] That's big. We're still dealing with diabetes, obviously, all the time and still always managing that and dealing with that. So it was interesting to watch that play. It went so fast. And I will talk about my trip in more detail. We're going to do a travel episode next week, don't worry, because we did have a fabulous time and I wish that I could jump in the Irish Sea for 15 minutes every day. I feel like I'd be a new and entirely different person in a good way, but alas, I don't live in Dublin. But just the intensity of summer just always gets me. When am I going to learn? When am I going to learn that the upending of all schedules and all things for the month of June and July will probably affect me some. I don't know why I have to learn this lesson afresh every year.

Beth [01:02:25] And you have different kids every year. It's not like you can figure out summer and that will translate to the next summer. Because you're a new family for every summer, so you're reinventing every single time.

Sarah [01:02:37] Well, I'm thrilled schools starting. I'll just be honest, I'm delighted about school.

Beth [01:02:41] I think my kids are ready. I can see in my kids that they're just like, it's time to be back with my friends, doing my own thing with my own space every day.

Sarah [01:02:50] Felix got on the plane home and told my mom, "I can't wait for school to start." That was like July 20th. So, yeah, they're ready. Griffin's always ready to go back. Amos is always my least ready to go back, but that's because he really loves television. He is my child. He would sit and watch television 4 hours a day if he could, if I would allow that, which is another reason I hate summer. So, yeah, we're all ready to go back. And I know people complain in my area, like I hear a lot of "it starts so soon" and I'm like, who cares? What else are we going to do in August? It's too hot. We might as well go back to school.

Beth [01:03:25] I would rather have some bigger breaks throughout the school year.

Sarah [01:03:30] Your school system is mean to you. That is true.

Beth [01:03:33] It is very limited. Like when we're in school, we are just in school. In the same vein of like a little more ease everywhere consistently instead of all the summer fun now and then back to the grindstone, and then we're all relieved again. I would just like a little more ease everywhere.

Sarah [01:03:51] Well, and then it all dies like the two weeks before school starts. It's like a wasteland. There's nothing to do. There's no camps. There's nothing. I was so delighted cause our youth minister was graduating. She was doing stuff for most of June. So she has all the stuff to last two weeks before school starts. I'm like, this is great. Let's keep this. Because usually it's just like we're just twiddling our thumbs once we bought our school supplies, there's nothing left to do and it's just hot. I'm ready for school to start.

Beth [01:04:16] There needs to be a name, something like interregnum for this period of summer, where you have done your big, fun summer things. And everyone is no longer impressed with your popsicles and your drive-in movie and your swimming pool. We're burned out on the summer activities.

Sarah [01:04:32] Literally and figuratively.

Beth [01:04:35] Yes. And yet the Fall extracurriculars have not started yet and school has not started. And if anyone mentions to me, I just want to watch my iPad, you just want to lose your mind. We need a name for this period.

Sarah [01:04:51] Yes. And we need someone to be in charge of filling it with something to do. That'd be great.

Beth [01:04:55] Someone who is not named me.

Sarah [01:04:58] No moms. No moms in charge. Someone else. Thank you. Maybe Barbie. I feel like Barbie could fill this role nicely. Hell, I put Oppenheimer in charge at this point.

Beth [01:05:07] Just anybody. Anybody will take your help.

Sarah [01:05:09] Well, thank you for listening. Thank you for coming back and catching up on the whole entire crowd (from President Biden to Barbie) with us today. Don't forget that tickets to our Paducah weekend go on sale for premium members starting on Monday, August 7th, and to the general public on Monday, August 14th. We are so excited to see all of you in Paducah this fall. It's going to be a delight. And as much as this period feels interminable, October 21st will be here in approximately 17 minutes. So prepare accordingly. Thank you. We will be back in your ears on Friday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.

Beth: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.

Sarah: Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Danny Ozment. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago.

Beth: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.