After Affirmative Action with Bethaney Wilkinson
TOPICS DISCUSSED
January 6th Criminal Cases and Indictments
After Affirmative Action with Bethaney Wilkinson
Outside of Politics: Living with Pain
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EPISODE RESOURCES
Symbols are powerful (Bethaney’s piece on affirmative action)
A More Beautiful Way (Bethaney’s Substack)
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:26] Hello, it's Beth. Thank you for joining me for Pantsuit Politics today. Sarah is off for the month of July. She'll be back in August. We have so much to discuss when she gets back. And we have some really good things planned for you between now and then, including today's episode. Before we jump into today's topics, just a reminder that it means a lot to us for you to go to your podcast player and give our show a five star rating, maybe even a couple sentences of a review too. It helps other people find us. It grows our community. It's so encouraging and important to us. We just really appreciate and value the gift of your time and recommendation. Okay. As you press play on this episode, I imagine the news will be dominated by the possible or actual third indictment of former President Donald Trump. That indictment seems imminent as I'm recording. I'm also working my way through the charges brought by the state of Michigan against 16 individuals for falsely signing certificates that claim Trump won Michigan's 2020 Electoral College votes. The defendants in this case include current and former state Republican officials, a Republican National Committee member, a sitting mayor, and a school board member. And they've been charged with eight felonies: forgery, publishing, counterfeit records, conspiracy to violate election laws. These are Michigan State criminal laws. It's been reported that there's an audio recording capturing some of the defendants talking about how the Trump campaign directed their entire plan so we could see some of these facts again at the federal level. Michigan's attorney general has been investigating this matter since at least January, and she had this to say about the indictment. "There will be those who claim that these charges are political in nature, but when there is overwhelming evidence of guilt in respect to multiple crimes, the most political act I could engage in as a prosecutor would be to take no action at all." I think that's how special counsel Jack Smith probably views Donald Trump's role in efforts to disrupt the counting of electoral votes at the U.S. Capitol on January six, 2021. The special counsel who acts on behalf of the Department of Justice, which acts on behalf of the people of the United States, sent Donald Trump a target letter. A target letter is the government saying, "Hey, we have evidence linking you to a crime, we're probably going to charge you with that crime. This is a moment for you to come chat with us if you'd like to tell your version of events.".
[00:02:52] We'll talk a lot more about these matters on the show when we have more information. We'll also cover them in even greater detail on More to Say, one of our premium podcasts that our listeners sometimes call law school for non-lawyers. For today, I just want to acknowledge that it can feel very consuming when news like this breaks; it can feel very negative, the kind of thing that makes you want to turn away from the news cycle in the world. It is easy to get lost in some version of, well, nothing matters and everyone is the worst. As we talk about with my kids in my house all the time, those feelings are real. They are also not the truth. Efforts to understand what happened in the last election and to enforce our laws and to test the government's faithfulness to the lawsuit seeking to enforce, matter. When we talk about January six especially, I think it can become dark because we're talking about a sense of civic betrayal. We might feel it in different ways, but I think it's pretty common in America to feel right now like a substantial percentage of the population has let you down. What is our work to do when we feel let down by a substantial percentage of the population? I want to turn from that headline sense of betrayal surrounding the former president, to a long term sense of betrayal represented by racism and ask that question: what is our work to do when we feel that a substantial percentage of the population has let us down? We're continuing to process the Supreme Court's affirmative action decision. And I knew, as we continue to process it, that I wanted to talk to Bethaney Wilkinson. Bethaney works in so many ways in racial justice and education and reconciliation. I learned about her work from our mutual friend Brandon Harvey. And look, everything Brandon Harvey recommends is absolute gold. Bethaney's work is no exception. So I subscribe to her wonderful newsletter called A More Beautiful Way. I read it as soon as it hits my inbox. And I can highly recommend her book, The Diversity Gap Where Good Intentions Meet True Cultural Change. I am so glad that Bethaney agreed to talk with me about affirmative action and racial reconciliation and online advocacy versus healing in the place where you live and a bunch of other topics. She even agreed to stick around to talk with me outside of politics about experiencing pain in a conversation that meant a lot to me. So I hope that you enjoy listening to and learning from Bethaney as much as I do. Bethaney, I really appreciate you taking time to talk with me today.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:05:39] Of course, I'm happy to be here.
Beth [00:05:41] I'm such an admirer of your work, and I specifically wanted to talk with you. Even before I had read your piece about affirmative action, I had been thinking about how you felt like a person to me that could have a really robust conversation about that topic. And then I read your piece that came out a couple of days later and thought, this is exactly right. The stars have aligned here. Because you wrote a piece that said a whole lot of things seemed to be true at one time. And I would love for you to start off with kind of where you were in the emotional space of that piece. And then we can kind of get into what else you know to be true at the same time and what questions you're still asking about it.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:06:18] Yeah. Thanks for asking. When I think about where I was at emotionally, I feel like whenever something big happens in the news, I have my knee jerk reaction, my knee jerk response, and then I have this intellectual exercise that I go through. And I think that post is kind of holding both of those pieces. So my emotional response was disappointment, grief, frustration. But then I had my intellectual thinking about it so, well, I don't know that affirmative action was working in the way that we thought it should be working anyway. Or maybe this is an opportunity for us to try something new. I just had all of my ways of rationalizing it, and that's not to diminish those thoughts in any way. It's just to say that I was holding both my disappointment with my hope that maybe this creates space for us to explore a new way to advance equity in the world.
Beth [00:07:15] A line from your piece that really jumped out at me was you saying that this has been a symbol that said we value the experiences people who have historically been kept out of these institutions bring. And the symbol of the Supreme Court decision is, well, they really don't care about us. I wonder if you would be willing to say more about that.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:07:36] As I sat with the grief and disappointment I was feeling alongside those thoughts about ways things could be better. I realized that I was grieving the loss of that symbol and the loss of the sense or belief that our institutions, the Supreme Court and others, were interested in acknowledging and repairing historical harm. And so even though I could say, "Oh, yeah, well, this affirmative action didn't work perfectly in the ways that we probably would hope it could work," it did symbolize a value for folks of color, for folks like me, who did get into an elite institution and wondered, like, do I belong here or do I not? So there was just so much complexity, but I think the symbol is really important. And, yeah, I just felt like, wow, maybe we're not as important as I thought we were to these institutions, if it can be so easily swept away.
Beth [00:08:27] I think I really missed that perspective in my initial reaction to the Supreme Court, and you're writing often does this for me. It kind of says, wait a second, slow down and see what you've missed here. I think when I initially saw the decision come out, I felt that moment of anger too. But then as I stepped back from that anger, I thought, is this my anger or is this social media's anger that I'm grabbing? And maybe it is, and maybe I need to come back from that. That's a practice I've really been working on, especially as it relates to a certain former president. I don't want to absorb the world's anger and make it my own. I want to just have a little bit of distance here. I think I took that distance a little too quickly with this decision, though. And what your piece helped me realize is that comes from an ambivalence I feel about college. And your piece helped me get to what a luxury it is to feel a sense of ambivalence about college. I'm a third generation on my dad's side of the family to go. And when I went it felt like a requirement, not an opportunity. And grad school even felt like a requirement, not an opportunity at that point. How quickly that happened in just three generations. And you just really helped me see that I missed the symbolism of the entire decision for people who have not felt like this is required of me. Instead, it's felt like, I'm not sure you belong here. You just kind of brought me back to a much more empathetic and holistic perspective, and I really appreciate it.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:10:05] Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I mean, I kept thinking too about my nieces and nephews and when they go to apply to college, like, how are they going to feel about their prospects and will they feel like there's going to be a space for them? And I don't know a lot about the inner workings of higher ed and of how the application processes work internally. But even just the emotional sense that, well, maybe there's not going to be a place for me and that the barriers are stacked against me even higher. I just was thinking about the emotional toll that could and likely does take on young folks of color.
Beth [00:10:42] You work with organizations on being race conscious in a number of dimensions, and so I'm not surprised to hear that you kind of immediately went to like, well, what's the opportunity on the other side of this decision? Can you talk a little bit about how organizations-- not just higher ed institutions-- but organizations in general can create that welcoming message, that symbol that says you are valued here and your unique experiences are valued here.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:11:09] There's so much that organizations can be thinking about and doing as it relates to that. I think that expanding from just wanting to increase diversity to making sure that we're creating experiences and cultures where people of all different types of backgrounds can actually thrive once they're in the room is a really important part of that work. And so, doing the work to understand your legacy as an institution like where have you been? Who has been routinely prioritized or advantaged in your context and why? Not to get into the weeds of blame and shame about it, but it's just to say what's here? And who thrives here? And who doesn't thrive here? And what do we need to shift in order to make this a more supportive environment for all types of people? I might think that creating a room to hear other people's perspectives on any number of issues or experiences kind of does what-- you acknowledged in reading my blog, it's just to say, "Oh, maybe there's a different way to look at this." Or to create some moments for empathy I think is really important, especially in the climate that we're in right now. And there are more policy changes that organizations can consider. And I don't know how far you want to go down that rabbit trail, but there are policies that you can't put in place to not only symbolize but to actualize your value for increased racial equity. And I also think it's important to not downplay the role that stories play. Also, when we think about who we are as an organization, who do we value and then who do we want to see valued here? So that's a few things that come to mind off the top of the dome. But, yeah, those are some steps people can consider. In terms of recruitment policy and strategy, I really I'm not sure because I don't know enough about the process when it comes to higher ed, but I do imagine that it's going to take a lot of creativity and experimentation and trial and error to find other ways to give voice to that value. It's like, look, this symbol and value has been taken away. Where else can we amplify this symbol and this value in our community? And how else might we steward our resources to support communities of color in our context? And so it's really about finding, I suppose, a whole new set of questions. And, yeah, I think it requires a good bit of creativity.
Beth [00:13:30] Well, I saw some of that creativity in your writing about this. Obviously, one of the big issues that has followed the affirmative action decision from the court has been this surge in discussion about legacy admissions. And I loved in your piece that you said not maybe we should get rid of all legacy admissions, but maybe we should consider legacy admissions for the people who are ancestors of folks who built these institutions.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:13:53] Yeah. Again, it's like how can we step back and find the opportunity here? Wouldn't that be so incredible?
Beth [00:13:59] I think it's such a beautiful idea. I mean, what a powerful symbol that would be.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:14:04] Oh, absolutely. Because it still speaks to that repair, that acknowledgment of history and past harm. And it's creating those pathways.
Beth [00:14:12] You also talked about investments in HBCUs. And I wanted to ask about that because I think I struggle as a white person with knowing where there is most value in creating a new space for people who've historically been excluded from other spaces to thrive, and where our energy is best spent on bringing people of diverse experiences together. And I guess I don't really have to have an opinion about that, but I am seeking more information about where the biggest impact can be in the wake of this decision.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:14:45] Sure. Your question makes me think of something I often teach on, which is like the different types of spaces we actually need in order to advance change, at least as it relates to race. I won't say that this applies to everything, but I find that we need really intentional spaces for-- if I can speak as a black person, I don't speak for all black people, of course, but I think we need spaces that emphasize our healing and our self-determination. That's an important part of collective progress, is there being spaces for black folks to focus on healing and self-determination for and amongst ourselves. And we need spaces if you think about it like a Venn diagram for some of that bridging work where we're bringing together diverse perspectives and diverse experiences to take, but to experience what other communities have learned to build connections. And that's also a part of the puzzle. And then we need spaces that are just based on perhaps learning and on listening and on unpacking history. I like to think of it as multiple buckets that are needed at one time. And so, yes, let's talk about advancing legacy admissions for folks who built some of these colleges and universities with their labor often uncompensated. And let's talk about investing in the self-determination of black communities and other communities of color. And let's talk about creating spaces that are diverse to build new solutions. I don't think it has to be one or the other. And I think the more that we're able to hold those different spaces, the more hopefully progress we'll see over time where everyone really does have a part to play in the work.
Beth [00:16:20] I love that emphasis on everyone having a part to play in the work. And I think that is the source of a lot of my discomfort in this arena, is figuring out what is my part to play in this work. I also want to ask you how it lands with you as the discussion unfolds that moving affirmative action out of the purview of these admissions departments gives them space to concentrate more on different types of diversity. Economic diversity, socioeconomic diversity comes up a lot. From that symbolic perspective, I both understand and find some agreement with that perspective. And I also feel like it misses some of the hurt that has been described in the wake of this decision. I would just love to hear how it lands with you.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:17:08] Yeah. I haven't read a lot about this, so I'm thinking about it for the first time right now. There is a particular history with race that we'll continue to grapple with forever, it seems. And I do think that race requires specific accommodations, solutions, needs. I think the problem is specific and the solutions have to be specific with that. I think the idea of focusing on socioeconomic diversity is interesting. I think it is important. I would be curious to see how that plays out. It's hard for me to imagine what that looks like, but I also do still sense that something would be missing if we're not having particular conversations about race. The other piece of this that I am holding, though, which is why I do feel like swirling, conflicted about it in some ways, is my acknowledgment that even as-- I maybe blogged about this too. I'm fumbling around it. As a black person who was admitted to a school and often wondered, I think I'm qualified, but do they think I'm qualified? Having that conversation a lot with myself, in my dream world there would be a situation where my race didn't matter, if that makes sense. Like in an ideal situation, it wouldn't matter. And so, I'm holding that ideal with the reality that it does matter. And that creates conflict for me. And I struggle with this in my work even now. As I dream about the kind of world I want to be a part of and the voices that are hopefully shaping that world, I don't want racial identity to be the first and most important thing because we're so much more than our racial identities. And yet it feels like a why or a dismissal of reality to not have race feature prominently in thinking about what it means to repair the world. And so I hold that as a very real tension and I go back and forth on it all the time, even in my work with organizations, because again ideally it wouldn't be a factor. But I also think that the Supreme Court's decision is jumping to that ideal too quickly, and I don't know that's helpful either.
Beth [00:19:36] Those layers of conflict make a lot of sense to me as you're describing them. It also really struck me when you said, I guess, that there's an aspect of racial identity that we're going to be dealing with forever. I know so much of your work is about healing. When you think about something that cannot be undone and that will probably have consequence for the entire human story, however long it lasts, how does that help you frame up what healing looks like lately?
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:20:09] Healing to me looks like really honing in on our sphere of influence as individuals, and in linking arms as individuals in our local contexts and communities. Because I think that when we zoom out and look at some of these bigger picture challenges, especially one as massive as race and racism, it can be so easy to feel disempowered. And it can be really easy to feel hopeless perhaps, like there's nothing I can do here. And so I have found that a tremendous amount of healing has required that I really focus on what it looks like for me as a black woman to be healthy and whole and wholehearted in my body, in my spiritual world, in my mental health and my emotional world. And then to really focus on who was right around me and what does it look like for me to build mutually dignifying relationships with people literally in my community and to try and solve the problems that are right here, to try and amplify the solutions that are within my grasp. And so that's not to say that there is no relevance to the big collective issues. I just think that if we give all of our energy away to things that we actually can't touch and feel, then that healing capacity that we all really do have is too dispersed and it can feel really challenging to sense like, oh, I'm making a difference here. So that's how I hold healing when it comes to bigger issues that we're probably not going to resolve ever in our lifetimes at the very least. It's like, well, what can I resolve? Well, I can find ways to be a bit more at peace today, and I can find ways to literally love my neighbor with a bit more intentionality. And I can find ways to advocate for use of color literally in my city. So it's going back to that creativity and finding our agency where we can. I think a lot of healing work starts there.
Beth [00:22:11] I love the idea of finding our agency where we can. I struggle with the tension between everything that you just said and what I know to be true and what you do in some of your work too. On the policy side, that the big structural things also matter. And that's been the rub with affirmative action the whole time, that you're trying to do something with really good intention on the big policy front. And it often misses some of the individual stories and the individual experiences and that sense of place and what are we trying to do in this place? And it just feels so thorny to try to reconcile those two things. And I guess that the answer. That they don't always reconcile. And so maybe you just keep putting one foot in front of the other and trying new things.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:23:00] Yeah, it's really difficult because it's like I'm sure that there are people who are organizing in response to the affirmative action decision and who are generating solutions for that. Maybe I don't know them personally. I can find them perhaps online and donate or something along those lines. But you're absolutely right. How do we get at the big structural pieces when it feels like we don't have as much agency over those decisions other than to raise our voice online? It's a recurring tension, and I don't know what the solution is.
Beth [00:23:31] I don't know either. I do find that the online portion feels increasingly destructive to me. And I wonder if you perceive that similarly or differently.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:23:44] Yeah, I might perceive it similarly. Even in the wake of the decision that we're discussing, I didn't find the fatalism about it to be super helpful. Like, oh, this is regressive. We're back to the 1950s. Okay, I hear you. And it's not 1950. And I don't know that saying that over and over again is going to help us get to 2050 in a way that's productive. And so, I feel that tension of like, okay, I'm upset about this. This is disappointing. But there's a part of me-- and maybe it's by virtue of the privileges that I do have or just my hopefulness, my sense is like, well, it's not what it was. There are lots of areas in our world here in the US where it's not the same as it was in 1950. And I don't think it's helpful. So that's just my two cents on it.
Beth [00:24:47] One piece of optimism that I've heard from people expressing in the wake of this decision has been about the role of essays in the college admissions process. And I think this connects to your point about story that it is really important for people to be able to tell who they are in whole and complete ways at the beginning of any new phase of their lives. I also hear a lot online this sense that asking for people's stories is burdensome sometimes, and burdensome at the good end of what it can be, that it can also come across as condescending, entitled, lazy, you name it. And so, I would love any advice that you have on thinking about that distinction. I don't want to just say things that sound like, well, what applicants really need to do is get very good at explaining how their racial identity impacts what they can bring to the table in these settings. That sounds gross to me and not where we want to be. And I do believe that story is a really important component of greater racial reconciliation in America.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:26:04] Yes. Oh, gosh. I chuckle because I think back to my college essay which was about race. And not because anyone told me, but because it was a present tension I was navigating being a young black girl in a very small southern town and having lots of racial experiences and grappling with those. And so, it was a part of my story and I told it. I think storytelling can become burdensome if it's extractive and exploitative. I feel like that's maybe kind of what you were alluding to. Like, get really good at telling your race story. That is strange and icky and harmful. But there is also the kind of confessional part of telling your story and not to say like, oh, I'm confessing something I did wrong, but to be witnessed in your story is so powerful for someone to be able to say, "This is who I am; this is what I have experience." And for that to be received and for someone to say I believe you and I see you, that's incredibly healing. And so, I think having the freedom to opt in to when to tell your story and when not to is really important. Also acknowledging that it is a gift when we offer other stories and it's a gift when we receive people's stories. And I guess maybe it comes down to people having a choice there. I think it's so powerful. It's so powerful to be heard and to be witness in the fullness of your humanity.
Beth [00:27:23] Yeah. And choice is a tough concept when we're talking about-- I always think of the Indigo Girls and "four years prostrate to the higher mind." I think that's where some of my built in ambivalence comes from. Like everything about how we think about college right now just feels off to me and feels lost even as I really value education and try to learn something new every single day. I just really worry about the state of how we think about this and what a choice reflects given the role that college degrees play in our economy.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:27:58] It's like, does someone actually have a choice? Is that what you're saying?
Beth [00:28:02] Yeah, I think so. And does it feel like a choice when you wonder about whether you will be welcome in a place if you don't highlight your racial identity or your racial story in this way? Does that make sense?
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:28:18] It does. That's a good question too. I'm really just processing here, but I wonder for white students-- I don't know. Maybe I don't have a response to that. I guess I'm thinking about maybe the privilege it is to not have to think about it. Maybe that's what I'm thinking about.
Beth [00:28:38] And so, can it be a pure choice? Is there real agency when you have to ask the question in the first place? I don't know.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:28:44] Well, then part of me wonders if that's always been there. Like that sense of how strongly do I want to feature this aspect of my identity or my experience in this essay. And I wonder if that's always there whether affirmative action is there or not. For reasons like I don't want them to pick me because I'm black. I also don't want to not be picked because I haven't told this part of my story that might make me get picked. I think that tensions probably always been a part of it.
Beth [00:29:17] I think you're right. I guess there's something about the picking in general that feels really broken to me.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:29:24] Oh, yeah. Racism. Yeah.
Beth [00:29:27] Yeah. Well, thank you for the approach that you've taken in your writing and for being so generous with your thoughts here about it.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:29:33] Yeah, of course. Thanks for asking.
Beth [00:29:44] So, Bethaney, we always in our show talking about something Outside of Politics and we find that very little is actually Outside of Politics. So with that caveat, you've also written quite a bit this summer about the experience of pain and I'm interested in talking about this with you because I live with chronic pain. And I'm always thinking about what role does this play in my life and my spirit in particular? What has led you to make this a part of your writing? You could have not. I would think this invites a lot in for you, and I wonder what your decision making process has been like.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:30:21] I tend to just write from whatever I'm learning at the time. And so in that way it's been a part of my work because it's been a part of my life. And I like to think that as unique as we all are, we're not that unique. And so, if I'm dealing with pain and confusion and disorientation and burnout, then surely other people are too. So let's talk about it. I am not one who has had chronic pain, so to be thrust into a season where it's been very prevalent has been shocking and has required that I re-evaluate my limits and my capacity and my energy in ways that I haven't had to in prior seasons. And I've heard other people talk about chronic pain, I've read about it, and even if it's not physical pain, emotional pain or whatever other types of distress we experience, I read about these things. But to be living through it and to be writing a lot about slowing down and attending to our bodies has just made for a lot of learning. A lot of like, "Oh, I can't move as fast as I thought. What does that mean for my work? Oh, I can't be as responsive to these requests. How will people perceive my participation in this community?" So it's interesting to acknowledge all of the identity questions that come along with processing being in a place of pain. And I guess I write about it just to open that up and to explore my own thoughts and then to make space to hear the thoughts and experiences of others.
Beth [00:31:49] It's been very affirming to read someone saying like, "Hey, this is a game changer." You know, just to acknowledge that living with pain requires adjustment. I feel like we don't get that message a lot.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:32:01] Yeah, so much adjustment as it should, I would imagine. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as you process it, but it's like our bodies were so finite and so limited and we have access to these things that make us feel like we're not, from the Internet to types of types of medical care. But we really are so limited in our capacity. And I feel like pain has put me right in touch with that limitation. And if I'm going to survive, I have to adjust. If I keep overriding my body, we will not be okay.
Beth [00:32:35] Yeah. I don't know if this is directly responsive, but what it calls to mind for me is a conversation I just had with a very good friend who has had big adjustments in her body over the last year. And we're talking about doctors and how awful it is to be in the medical swirl when you're dealing with a health issue and trying to articulate what your goals are. And so I ask her, like, "If you were to stay exactly as you are now for the rest of your life, would that be acceptable?" And she said, "It would. It's just hard because I remember what I felt like before this." And it made me realize I don't remember what I felt like before this at this point. And I've just kind of been thinking about that. Like, what does it mean now to have lived this way longer than I lived another way? And what have I learned from that? And what have I lost from it? And I think it's important to be willing to ask that what I've lost from it question because I stuff that down a lot and just try to focus on what am I learning. And probably don't do enough of like, man, this just sucks too. Yes, I'm lucky. Yes, there are much harder things. Yes, people do it. I can do the grief Olympics. There are people who are just so much worse off than I am. Yes, I have all the resources and it still sucks.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:33:59] Yeah. I don't know if you experienced this too, but something I've been bumping up against is some of those questions about my worth and my place. And if I'm not able to show up in these ways, what does that mean for my role in society or something along those lines? Because some of the pain that I'm navigating, I can easily remember when it wasn't here. And I'm hopeful that it will leave at some point. And yet the sense that, oh, I'm a failure because I feel this way, that's probably been one of the biggest narratives that I've been combating lately. But, yeah, wrestling with all of those identity pieces, do you bump up against that in your own process?
Beth [00:34:38] Yes. I think the hardest piece of that for me is probably around travel, at least right now, because I just don't desire a whole lot of leisure travel. I like work travel because it comes in kind of manageable chunks. But the idea of taking my kids on a two week long vacation somewhere, which again I recognize like there's incredible privilege and luxury in that even being a question and specifically in living in a place where that's a little bit of an expectation. The same friend and I were talking always people asking like, where are you vacationing this summer? And I'm, like, "I don't know, but I don't really appreciate vacationing becoming a verb that we're just tossing around because it does take a lot of money and time and flexibility and also physical energy to move about in the world so freely." And, yeah, I think that probably the exhaustion that I have felt over the past year, and especially when you combine that exhaustion with just life things, people die, pets die, they're just life things that are hard. It's just a lot. And I don't have a lot of energy for that. And it does make me feel like I'm sort of unsophisticated or uncool, like just dumb middle school kind of feelings that are very real for 40-year-olds, apparently.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:36:06] Yeah, I definitely hear you on that.
Beth [00:36:08] Yeah. Thanks. On the identity side, I think I feel lucky to be a creator because I feel like I can still carve out an identity for myself and I wonder if that would be a lot harder if I were in a profession that simultaneously-- like when I was practicing law, it was a really big deal when I wasn't in the office. And I couldn't be in the office a lot. And I didn't have another outlet to say, "No, but this is who I am and this is what I can create and this is what I can do." And so I do feel lucky about my job.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:36:41] Yeah, I feel similarly. Like the ability to say I'm going to do this two weeks from now instead of doing it today. And having the luxury of creating my own schedule has been incredibly helpful. And it has made me think back to when I worked in an organization. And it helps me to even understand better why some workplace environments didn't work well with me just because my body's needs were aligned with the intensity or the pace of the organization. And I didn't have language for that or an awareness of it. But now that I haven't worked for an institution officially for a long time, I'm like, oh, my body's pace, the pace that feels good to me whether I'm experiencing pain or not, is naturally much slower than many of the pieces that are required in a traditional workplace. And then it just makes me want to have the entire world be able to work according to their natural pace. And I can kind of get lost in that dreamland.
Beth [00:37:38] Well, and even in that dreamland, I wonder where the psychological pain points are in addition to the physical ones. Like, we have put a lot of investment of time and energy into our garden this summer, which has been a really lovely journey for me. And I love it. And it's hard. It's physically hard and it takes a lot out of me whenever we go out just to pull weeds and stuff. And I know that there's a level of that that would be true for anyone. And I also know that in my body it is particularly true and particularly challenging to come back from, and that has kind of made me feel less than this summer. And so I think even if we were all able to live in like the beautiful, incredibly free way that I get to, it's really hard to have pain in your body all the time.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:38:30] Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Beth [00:38:33] Well, Bethaney, please tell everyone how they can stay in touch with you and all of your thoughts.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:38:38] Oh, gosh. Yeah. There's so many. I have a Substack blog called A More Beautiful Way, and so you can find me there. I post weekly typically, unless my body doesn't have energy for that. But mostly it's every week on Tuesdays. I'm in there. I write about slow living and social change. And my husband and I co-sustain a one acre homestead, so I tend to write a little bit about what I'm learning about seasonal living there. And then also on Instagram @Bethaney.co, you can also find me and my thoughts about all sorts of stuff on the ground.
Beth [00:39:11] Well, I am a More Beautiful Way subscriber, and I absolutely love it. And it always seems to come to my inbox in a moment when you are scratching at a question that I need to think more about myself. So thank you for all of your work and for sharing it with us here.
Bethaney Wilkinson [00:39:24] Of course. Thanks for having me, Beth.
Beth [00:39:27] Thanks again to Bethaney Wilkinson for joining me today. You can find all the links to stay connected with her in our show notes. I really appreciate you being here. Before we wrap up, please do remember to go to your podcast player and give us a five star rating and review. We appreciate that so much. Will be back here with you next Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available.
Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
Sarah: Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.
Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Danny Ozment. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago.
Beth: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.