Fox News, the Free Press, and Farewell to Tucker Carlson

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Biden’s Anticipated 2024 Presidential Announcement

  • Supreme Court Mifepristone Ruling

  • Dominion Voting Settlement with Fox News

  • Tucker Carlson and Fox News Part Ways

  • Outside of Politics: Taylor Swift Eras Tour

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EPISODE RESOURCES

FOX NEWS AND DOMINION VOTING

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:09] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:25] Thank you so much for joining us at Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. And the news is pretty newsy right now about itself. This is going to be a very meta conversation today. We are going to discuss the last minute settlement between Dominion voting systems and Fox News. The breaking news as we are reporting that Tucker Carlson has been fired from Fox News. And before that, we're going to talk about the Supreme Court and President Biden's decision to run for re-election. We always end our show talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics. And for a significant percentage of the Pantsuit Politic's team today, that is Taylor Swift's Era's tour. So you'll get to enjoy that at the end of the show.  

Sarah [00:01:02] And a significant percentage of our listeners, if my Instagram DMS are any indication over the weekend. We are going to be at the Allen County Library in Fort Wayne, Indiana tomorrow. We love getting out on the road to meet all of you and see your parts of the country, and we're really proud of the feedback we hear after we visit schools and organizations and communities. The president of Maryville College, Bryan Coker, said that we are incredible listeners and that we were very attentive to the questions and perspectives of the students and community. We have three spots left for this fall and are now booking for 2024 as well. So, if you'd like to bring us to your community, please reach out to Alise at Hello@pantsuitpolitics.com or through our website.  

Beth [00:01:39] Up next, we're going to talk about President Biden's decision to run for re-election in the Supreme Court. We are recording on Monday, April 24th, and it's being reported that tomorrow as this episode comes out, President Biden will announce his campaign for re-election. I just wanted to check in with you on how you're feeling about that.  

Sarah [00:02:06] I'm feeling good. I'm in that New York Times article about the Democrats, how they all became comfortable with the re-election. I'm in that group. I've become comfortable with the re-election of Joseph Robinette Biden.  

Beth [00:02:16] Would you like to say more about that?  

Sarah [00:02:18] How much time do we have? This was like a quick thing. No, I just think that he has proven himself up to the job between the quick trip to Ukraine and the trip to Ireland and the hopping around the country, promoting all the manufacturing and investment. I just sort of had to give myself a pep talk and say, I have some ideas about aging, but I don't know Joe Biden and I don't live in his body. And if he thinks he's capable of it, I think he's shown himself to be an outstanding president and I'm willing to trust him that he is accurately making that assessment. And if he thinks he can do the job, I have nothing but the performance of the first term in front of me. And I've got very, very little criticism. So, I'm happy to give him another chance.  

Beth [00:03:06] I think he's done a nice job. I think he's a good president. I don't agree with everything he's done, but I'm never going to for any president. No one should. It's not the way our system works. It's not the level of decision that makes it to the White House. I still remain worried about this. I think the Democratic Party has a number of people who could be very natural successors to Joe Biden. And I worry that there's some groupthink going on about how he has earned a second term, about how the public will only accept him. There's a really great piece in The Atlantic today. It's actually about Dianne Feinstein. When you're talking about older people in positions of power, when you tip from the point where it's a really good thing because they have experience and wisdom amassed over a long time into a space of "I can only do this, no one else can do it the way I can." And I worry that that's happening a little bit around President Biden. I'm not angry about this. I don't have super strong emotions. But I do think that every single person who will vote has personal experiences with older people in positions of power in their lives. And every single person has experiences of caregiving for older people. And I worry that there's some magical thinking going on about how voters are going to respond to someone who's 80 now, before campaigning has started. The only piece of his performance from the first term that I would specifically call out as indicative of how the next four years might go in a way that concerns me, is the fact that he doesn't interact with the press. And that the limited number of briefings that he does, this announcement happening by video, there has been a lot of effort to conserve his energy. And I respect that, but I do also worry about it.  

Sarah [00:05:06] Well, I mean, we have press briefings. That's an improvement on the last administration. We started the White House press briefings against this administration-- interacts a lot. And I read an exit interview that's fantastic with Ron Klain. And I hope they-- instead of trying to avoid it-- lean into this idea of we have so much experience, not just him, but the fact that he does is why the administration does. And we've shown what a benefit that is. And just make that case. Don't try to ignore that you have a weakness that needs to be addressed. And I don't think they will. That's not the sense I get, because I do think that it is also an incredible strength to have that much experience. And I don't know if they think that he's the only one, but I do think that he's sort of uniquely suited for this moment, particularly coming out of the pandemic. I think that he was uniquely suited based on his experience to this moment in American history. And I hope that he can continue to bring us out of that and do that sort of soul of a nation work that he speaks about so frequently. Because I don't think we're done with that part of the journey yet. And I think he cares deeply about that and has shown some aptitude when it comes to that part of leadership. And I think that in particular, it's hard just to make this assessment when you know that the other side of the aisle is so broken and is probably going to nominate Donald Trump. So, it's hard to objectively review any sort of Democratic decision making when you have that on the other side of the aisle. But I'm just (along with the rest of the Democratic Party) making my peace with it.  

Beth [00:06:41] And do you think it's right for them to go ahead and announce if he's going to do it? I agree with whomever has been telling the press we realize it's not helpful to not say it anymore. I think that's right. Whatever it's going to be, let's do it. But I still, on balance, wish that he would stick to being a one term president and be a very involved mentor to the next candidate. But here we are. In the wishful thinking territory, Sarah, I have felt like most of the reporting about the Supreme Court's order on mifepristone has just projected what everyone hopes to read into this order instead of what's actually there, which is very little. It's a very short order preserving the status quo. So mifepristone remains authorized in states where abortion is legal under the current terms that the FDA has in effect, while the Fifth Circuit considers what it wants to do next. And I hear in a lot of the commentary, "Well, the Supreme Court's been put in its place a little bit by the reaction to Dobbs by this reporting about Clarence Thomas." I just feel like people are reading an awful lot between the lines here that I'm not sure is there.  

Sarah [00:07:51] What I find most interesting about this ruling is why it is narrow. It does change the Fifth Circuit stay, which kept the sort of original 2000 authorization, but undid the changes since 2016. And I think it's a very interesting question of administrative law-- which I understand is not a phrase a lot of people use-- that the solicitor general, when making basically the administration's lawyer, came to make the case of why we needed a complete and total stay maintaining the status quo was arguing that it's not that easy. It's not that easy. Basically if you keep some of it but not all of it, then we have mislabeled medication across the country. That's not how the FDA's processes work. Which is really what this case is about. This case is not about abortion, it's about FDA processes. And I think that's what gets missed in so many of the hot takes, is people really want it to be about abortion. And of course it isn't. The incendiary language used in the Texas decision sort of exacerbated that take. But to me, in a way, it is a continuation of the overturning of Dobbs in that they are trying to make a moral case and they created chaos, legal chaos. This is what we said in our initial analysis. This is going to be a disaster. And this is just one manifestation of that as manifested through FDA administrative procedure. But there will be more. There will be more. And I just love that Sam Alito's argument in his dissent was basically, like, the FDA doesn't have to enforce its rules, he could just ignore them if it doesn't want to. As a Supreme Court justice, that's your argument? It's like but they don't have to. Okay, cool, cool. In a debate about administrative process, your argument is they can just ignore the administrative process. I swear to God, this man.  

Beth [00:09:42] They also made a pretty stunning accusation that he believes the Biden administration might defy a court order on this because they feel so strongly about the availability of this drug. And I don't see anything in Joe Biden's record that indicates to me that if the Supreme Court issued a ruling that he disagreed with, he would defy that ruling. I just don't see it. I don't think that's who Joe Biden is. I think, all things considered, he's had a very light touch with the Supreme Court. And I think it tells you a lot about Alito's state of mind, about how defensive it's getting in that bunker after he wrote the Dobbs decision. The other thing that this case is about, I agree with you entirely that it's less about abortion than it is about how much deference goes to executive branch agencies, the power of the FDA. In practical terms, what the FDA is able to produce in the marketplace. I think the other thing that this slice of it was about is the shadow docket. How much can be done on a preliminary basis. And it's easy to lose in all the coverage that Texas judge ruled on a preliminary basis that what the FDA did years ago was wrong, and on a preliminary basis, before a trial plays out, he rules that we're going to shut down the availability of this drug across the country. That is extraordinary. And you have a court that's been arguing amongst itself pretty publicly about what can be done on a preliminary basis nationwide for a couple of years now. So, I just don't read into this order any kind of timidity from the Supreme Court about abortion. I think this is just a very narrow, very early order in a super weird case that has all kinds of issues bubbling around standing and just the facts as they've been presented and procedure. And I don't think this means that this court is any more likely to be sympathetic to women's reproductive care than they were last term.  

Sarah [00:11:58] I hear you. I think it's so hard to think about this because you just can't separate how this court feels about abortion and what they're ready to shred in pursuit of that. You know what I mean? Like you could say that about Dobbs. I mean, it wasn't just about abortion. It was about precedent. It was this massive, massive undercutting of precedent. And they were willing to do that because they feel so strongly about abortion. But you know what else they feel so strongly about? Being Supreme Court justices. And I think they thought the institution could withhold it. And while I do not expect them all to come to Jesus on the right of a woman to have an abortion, I do think that unless they are even less self-aware than I imagine-- which is possible for sure-- then they have got to be feeling this foundational crumbling. That NPR had a poll today about how six out of 10 Americans don't trust the court. A majority, even the Republicans, think they shouldn't have lifetime appointments, which I think is a fantastic idea and would love to start there. Even Alito and Thomas, I would put on the other end of, like, they don't care. They'll burn it to the ground. Who cares? But they're not the only ones. And I would not put Amy Coney Barrett in that category. I would not put Kavanaugh in that category. I would not put Gorsuch in that category. And I would certainly not put John Roberts in that category, who has been called to the Senate Judiciary Committee to talk about ethical standards after all this reporting on Clarence Thomas. As much as they claim they make these decisions in a vacuum, that is bullshit and always has been. And this stuff has got to be weighing on them. I just have to believe that even if it doesn't weigh on Alito or Thomas, it has to be weighed on the rest of them.  

Beth [00:13:46] I think it's weighing on Alito, that's why his words are so defensive. I think I totally agree with that. What I don't want people to expect is for the status quo to hold indefinitely around mifepristone. I think if there is a way to undercut this in the future, in a better case or as this one is more developed, it could absolutely happen. And it is important to be aware of that. The other thing that I think is important to be aware of, because I do believe that the way that we talk in our lives about abortion really matters, it is important for people to remember that mifepristone is not about abortion until the moment of birth. Which is the line that every very pro-life person in my life uses with me when we talk about this issue. Democrats want abortion until the moment of birth. We are talking about up to 10 weeks. That's it. This is about the moment in a pregnancy when polling tells us the vast majority of Americans believe it ought to be available and safe and legal. I think put some pens in, this is an early abortion drug. It is for now going to be available under the same terms it was before the Texas judge issued his bananas ruling. That means that it is still illegal in states that have made abortion illegal completely. And the Supreme Court has a lot going on. There are just a lot of plates being spun over at the court right now.  

Sarah [00:15:11] Well, and I think people have a fundamental understanding of that. That's why this ruling polls so badly. That's why people are more supportive of abortion rights. I think there is this fundamental understanding that it's very early in a pregnancy that people are using these drugs. And I think that's why people feel differently about them.  

Beth [00:15:29] Well, one of the most frustrating aspects of the court system is that sense that appellate courts are working issue by issue and you don't get a conclusive result. We're going to move on to a lawsuit where there was a conclusive result, at least between those parties. And just in the last couple of hours today, we're seeing what might come next from that. Next up, we're going to talk about Dominion's lawsuit against Fox News, the giant settlement, and what we're learning from it. Last week, Dominion Voting Systems settled its defamation case against Fox News. And as we were preparing to record, we learned that Tucker Carlson is out at Fox News. Tucker Carlson's text messages were a star of the reporting about this lawsuit during the discovery process when depositions were being conducted. And it looks very much like he was fired because his last episode was on April 21st, this past Friday. And if you watch the end of that episode, he certainly sounds like a person who intended to be back in his chair on Monday.  

Sarah [00:16:39] I think he got fired. And we don't know where he's going. And also, I just like the way it sounds on my tongue when I say Tucker Carlson got fired. Somebody tweeted he now has the triumvirate-- he got fired from MSNBC, CNN, and FOX News. Beautiful. Love that journey for him.  

Beth [00:16:57] As we're thinking about what it might mean that Tucker Carlson has departed, which I suspect has to do at least in some amount with the Dominion lawsuit and in some amount with the 60 Minutes piece that aired Sunday night where Ray Epps said that Tucker Carlson has been trying to ruin his life over a conspiracy theory related to January six. We wanted to take a second and do some context around the Dominion lawsuit.  

Sarah [00:17:23] Well, and don't forget, he's got a former producer of The Tucker Carlson Show suing Fox News as well. It just keeps coming.  

Beth [00:17:30] So Dominion sued Fox for defamation, which is illegal lying. I think it's good to just remember that in a free society, most forms of lying are legal.  

Sarah [00:17:40] Yeah, unless you're under oath. Everybody just remember. Unless you're under oath, you can lie. It's fine. It's not great, but I sure cannot go to jail for it.  

Beth [00:17:48] So defamation is when lying becomes illegal because it has injured someone's reputation and because a reasonable person listening to what you've said would think it was an assertion of fact and it was published. It's been heard by at least more than one party. We do say that if you are in the business of distributing information in the world. You need to be careful about how you do that. You don't have to be super careful, but you have to be a little careful about it. And Fox News has really benefited from that standard. The Supreme Court, in a case called New York Times versus Sullivan said that if we're talking about public figures, you have to be even less careful because we want people to be able to have open discussion in society, to critique leaders, to not be worried that they're going to make a mistake to the point of holding back on their coverage. That actual malice standard that you knew something was false and you said it anyway really protects entities like Fox News in these lawsuits.  

Sarah [00:18:50] Yeah, and this is important to remember. This fundamental Supreme Court case, New York Times V Sullivan came from the civil rights movement. There was like a full page ad in the New York Times from supporters of Martin Luther King, and there was like minor inaccuracies. And the Montgomery police commissioner sued. And so, we don't want that. We don't want public figures being able to quash any criticism of them because it wasn't a perfect factual statement at all times. And, of course, we have differing standards. The UK has a very different standard when it comes to defamation, but that's a totally another episode. But, I mean, I just think that's important to remember where that came from, because we do want criticism of public figures. We want a nice free flow of information when it comes to that.  

Beth [00:19:33] And it's been interesting because during the Trump presidency you heard a lot of conversation about how that actual malice standard was too high. Donald Trump wanted to be able to sue news organizations and have a much better shot to get those cases to juries. He thought the Supreme Court set the bar too high, especially as to public figures, and that it should be lowered. But the tables have turned in this lawsuit because Fox is a defendant and Dominion is the rare plaintiff that had a ton of evidence as to the mental state of Fox. That's what makes the actual malice so hard. Being able to prove that someone knew their statement was false is usually a real hurdle. But from the outset of this complaint, and definitely through the discovery process, Dominion seemed to have emails and texts and testimony that showed everyone at Fox knew what was being published was false.  

Sarah [00:20:29] It does feel like text messaging has really revolutionized proving someone's heart and mind. That's like a great way to show what people were actually thinking. Because the text message is just like a little bit of a truth serum. When you're in a group text or a text with one other individual, we're really capturing how people are thinking and feeling.  

Beth [00:20:53] And they got incredible testimony out of the depositions. Rupert Murdoch did not perform well In his deposition testimony. He admitted that the election had not been stolen. He said he had told top executives at Fox that prominent hosts should acknowledge Joe Biden's win. He admitted that Lou Dobbs and Jeanine Pirro were endorsing false claims of election fraud.  

Sarah [00:21:16] I know that we're in the middle of Succession. And so, just the comparisons are so easy because it's so it's based so much on the Murdoch family. But this scene felt like it could have been in Succession, maybe with some additional curse words. Apparently, at the end of his deposition, his lawyer was kissing his ass and like, "You did good. You nailed it." And very Logan Roy, I could actually hear Brian Cox delivering this line. He pointed to Dominion's attorney, Rupert Murdoch did and said, "I bet he feels differently." And the Dominion attorney responded, "Yes, sir, I do." So, I just love that he saw that and articulated it. And I do think it's really important as we're talking about these text messages. They had to prove two different things. They had to prove that the election was not stolen. And all this stuff they were saying about Dominion was false. And then they were going to have to prove this actual malice, that they said all these false things with actual malice. And so, what I think really turned the tide in their favor-- although this preliminary really came and they were still reporting that there was no way there was going to be a settlement. In the preliminary ruling, the judge said you do not have to prove that during trial. You have sufficiently proven that there was no election stolen, which drop that out to all your conservative friends and family if you like. They weren't even going have to bother with that. That was established with fact. All they were going to have to work on was this actual malice standard, which is what we thought we were going to spend the six weeks on the trial because Fox was very stubbornly refusing to even engage.  

Beth [00:22:36] Well, the other thing that was going really badly for Fox is that the judge had admonished the Fox attorneys for playing really fast and loose with some essential facts like Rupert Murdoch's title and role at Fox News, some other discovery issues. The judge said to a Fox lawyer, "You have a credibility problem now." And that's big. That is not what you want going into a jury trial. But the jury was seated and the judge left the room and everybody was waiting. And a couple hours later, the judge announces the settlement, which is, as I'm sure you've heard, a settlement of $787.5 million. That is 20 times Dominion Voting Systems annual revenue and 15 times its total value. So, that is the third thing Dominion would have to establish at trial. Had the judge not decided that it was actually false, that would have been on the table. The second issue is the actual malice standard, but the third is the damage. The amount of damage this caused to Dominion. And I just need to take a second and say that these lawyers did some excellent lawyering because to get 15 times the entire value of the company in a settlement is extraordinary.  

Sarah [00:23:52] Listen, the lawyers are thrilled. Under any rubric, these trial attorneys are like, "Sweet!" Because they wired in the money immediately. Everybody's going to get paid! Really, really paid. And good for them. Good. I'm delighted. Yeah. The judge had also appointed a special master because they said they had turned everything over. And I just thought if the Tucker Carlson text message of, "I love Donald Trump and we're so close to never having to talk about him again" is what you turned over and there are stuff you weren't.... Like, what were you hiding if you let that go? I want to know. That's the only part I'm sad about. I think as far as the settlement, if I was Dominion I would be thrilled. And I think the rest of us should be too. But I would have loved to see what that special master could have turned up.  

Beth [00:24:34] Well, you might get that opportunity because Fox isn't done being sued. We have a $2.7 billion lawsuit out there on defamation. Very similar facts from Smartmatic, another voting system that was trashed on Fox's programing. Smartmatic said Fox knowingly aired more than 100 false statements about it. So, there will be more here.  

Sarah [00:24:56] And we have Abby Grossberg, the producer at Tucker Carlson, saying that they were pushing her to mislead the attorneys in her depositions in this Dominion case. You have a Fox shareholder suing that they violated their fiduciary duties by allowing the broadcast of this election theories. And then Dominion has lawsuits against a bunch of other people. Mike Lindell, Newsmax, OANN, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Patrick Byrne. And that's the thing. I disagree a little bit with the the daily episode on this lawsuit. For one thing, I don't think that this lawsuit was meant to undo the big lie. I think that's what the January 6th Committee is for and I think the criminal prosecutions are for. I didn't feel as if this was how we were going to establish that the election wasn't stolen. I never felt those stakes involved with this particular lawsuit. To me, this was really about Dominion and if they're happy. The CEO wrote in The New York Times that he did feel like they held Fox News accountable. And I do think that this amount of money is a certain level of accountability. And I liked his point of any apology they would have given would have been forced. It would have rang false and and beforced. And so, is that what I really wanted to fight for and put my employees through all these additional testimony? Everybody was like sort of ready to move forward. And I'm not sure about the employee, that he was really looking out for his employees part. But I do buy that this level of money is absolutely accountability.  

Beth [00:26:25] You just can't ask one trial to undo the big lie. This is an unfair exploitation. There are too many dynamics. The best thing that it had happened for Fox, I think, before the jury was seated is that the judge decided not to televise the trial.  

Sarah [00:26:38] Yes.  

Beth [00:26:39] If you had Fox on air personalities under oath in a witness chair on TV, that would have been catastrophic. Now, if the goal of this trial were to undo the big lie, then we should all say, well, that judge should have had this aired. That's important for people to see. But that is not what this judge is charged with doing. He has to oversee a fair proceeding between two litigants. Dominion and its lawyers are not accountable to the general public for what size settlement they took. That's not how our system works. Our system depends on the executive branch doing its thing, the legislative branch doing its thing, the judicial branch doing its thing, and private actors doing all of ours. And that's what you see is a confluence of all of that implicated in this trial. But it cannot be beholden to all of those separate interests. It's just not set up to do it.  

Sarah [00:27:34] And I just feel like if the other goal was to take out Fox News, just because there's not an on air apology does not mean that this lawsuit and the other lawsuits that have taken place and are going to continue to take place will not impact the everyday management of Fox News. And I really feel like the firing of Tucker Carlson made my point for me this morning. There is a point in The Daily where they were like, well, they'll just keep writing checks because this is their business model. And I thought, no, I don't think that's right. That doesn't ring true to me. That's not how corporations function. It's just like, "Well, let's just keep writing checks." No way, they layoff people to save like 5%. You don't think 20% of their cash reserves in one lawsuit when there are many, many more coming matters?  

Beth [00:28:19] Yeah, I understand some of the cynicism. I understand that Fox News has a lot of money. I understand that Rupert Murdoch has written a lot of really big checks over time to a lot of different people over defamation and harassment and a host of issues. You can't do 787.5 million every day. And you can't even do it, I don't think, with all the incoming that is out there right now. We're not even talking about hypothetical future lawsuits. What is pending right now, I don't think Fox could afford to do this many times. It makes a dent.  

Sarah [00:28:55] Mm-hmm.  

Beth [00:28:56] And that's part of why I think that 60 Minutes episode on the heels of the settlement was really, really bad for Fox. It's a lot at one time. And somebody like Tucker Carlson, who shows no signs whatsoever of having learned any lessons, at some point goes from one of the highest rated shows on cable news to a distinct liability. That turn happened fast here. It might feel really slow, but in the scheme of things, that was a quick turn.  

Sarah [00:29:27] And I think it's just death by a thousand cuts. It's not just the lawsuits. It's the like advertiser boycott. Nobody wants to be an advertiser on Tucker Carlson Show. And it's also the incoming from the right where you have OANN and Newsmax, who I also hope are at least crippled by the Dominion lawsuits coming their way. It's a lot and it adds up. And also they have an aging viewership anyway. And cable news overall is suffering. CNN just fired Don Lemon.  Great. If anything will save America, it is the end of cable news. I think that'd be a great, great first step.  

Beth [00:30:08] I have so many questions about what happened with Don Lemon. I just want to sit all day and be a fly on the wall in various media outlets across the country. I want to understand how this went down with Tucker Carlson. I really want to know what happened with Don Lemon. I want to know what the conversation looks like in spaces where you say, look, we have today an extremely valuable asset. Even damage like this, Fox is an extremely valuable asset. This is another excellent Succession parallel. They talk a lot about whether their news network should be part of this unfolding deal and what is the value of this news network when it's built on something that feels like the past, but is still very present and creates a lot of cash in the very present? I don't think that cable news necessarily has to be destroyed or even fundamentally transformed to improve our democracy. I think in some ways that would be too little too late because it and talk radio for so long have sown the seeds of where we find ourselves in relation to the political parties and each other. But I do hope that at least we're sending a message that a free press comes with responsibilities. We don't want the government controlling what the message is, whether that is a false message or a true one. We don't want the government controlling that message, but we do want some accountability when an organization that advertises itself as a news network continually pumps out something that even they know is not only false but bananas. And that's what those text messages established. This wasn't even a close call in terms of what they thought.  

Sarah [00:31:49] Yes, they definitely knew it was a conspiracy theory of the highest order with basically no founding in fact. And there should be repercussions for that. And I call 700 plus million a hell of a repercussion. And, again, we're not done. They're not done. It will be interesting to see who they fill Tucker Carlson's time slot with. It will be interesting to see if there are any changes to the approach, because the other thing that is very clear from those depositions is that they are terrified of their own audience. They feel beholden in ways that are ethically problematic to their viewership and are unwilling to tell them any sort of hard truth and fire the people who do. As we saw when they called the election for Joe Biden and particularly when they called Arizona for Joe Biden. So, I think thatis where we'll really see the rubber meet the road, is if the editorial content changes at all.  I wouldn't say I'm hopeful about that, but I think if they want to maintain any sort of relevancy, if they just don't want to continue to build in 20 to 30% for settlements in perpetuity, then I think they might want to consider that.  

Beth [00:32:59] The other piece of cynicism that I understand and also want to push against, we will hear from listeners who say even this won't change the level of trust my family members have in Fox News. And I've heard a lot of that in the commentary over the past couple of days. Like, the viewership once what it wants, they don't care if it's true or false. They just want to be fed the line that they believe in. And maybe that's true, but I don't believe that impedes progress. I don't believe that renders the rest of this meaningless. Don't judge the success or failure of the Dominion lawsuit or the way that we are slowly reckoning with the 2020 election by the person in your life who likes Fox News. Just don't let that be the metric. They might like Fox News until they die. They might swear by it until they die. And that's frustrating and it's hard, but it doesn't mean the good things aren't developing in sort of the big picture of how our society views these events.  

Sarah [00:34:05] Next up, we're going to talk about Taylor Swift. And it feels like a really natural and important transition to bring up her song Karma, which I can't play because I can't pay Taylor Swift. But we all know it and sing it along as we wrap up this conversation about Fox News.  

Beth [00:34:33] Sarah, you and I had really different weekends, and my weekend involved a family emergency that I'm sure we'll talk about at some point. But I am still processing it and getting through it and in the midst of it in many ways. So, I am not going to be a rain cloud on your conversation about your delightful weekend. And I'm just going to step away here and let you bring on some friends of the show to discuss it.  

Sarah [00:34:57] I have invited Maggie Penton and Ashley Parrott Murray, two incredibly important members of the Pantsuit Politics team here to discuss the one and only Taylor Swift's Era's tour. We have the entire spectrum. Maggie didn't know much about Taylor Swift, didn't know much of her music, and went. I'm in the middle. I know her music. I like it. I sang approximately 60 to 70% of the songs at the concert. And then Ashley is all the way full Swifty, Taylor's age, has been listening to her for most of her life now. Ashley, I cannot allow you to go on about why Taylor Swift is great for the entire segment of the show, but I will give you approximately 20 to 30 seconds to express your full devotion and why you feel Taylor Swift is the best person.  

Ashley [00:35:43] That just feels like so much pressure. And 30 seconds is not enough time. I told you before we got on I'm going to struggle to say anything besides I love her. And I'm saying that cause I'm on a podcast, but just know that I'm screaming I love her in my heart and soul.  

Sarah [00:36:00] All the time.  

Ashley [00:36:02] And it truly is all I'm talking about. It's become my whole personality.  

Sarah [00:36:07] Yes, it is. And I can testify to this because Ashley, very generously, when I put on Instagram that I felt like there were some age discrimination in the fan presale that I didn't get into, said, "Okay, well, I have two extra tickets if you want to fly to Houston." And my friend Kate and I had already been in deep discussions about attending the Eras Tour. So, Ashley not only sold us two of her extra tickets, but let us stay in her house and came and got us at the airport at one AM. Just full on that Taylor Swift fan spirit in full effect this weekend.  

Ashley [00:36:44] It was so much fun.  

Sarah [00:36:45] We had an incredible time.  

Ashley [00:36:48] We're about a year or two apart probably in age. So, I have memories of listening to her in high school class with my friend. Back we had iPods.  

Maggie [00:36:58] And we would share the iPods.  

Ashley [00:37:00] We would share the iPods. And I listened to her first album when I was probably like 15-- maybe younger.  

Maggie [00:37:06] When you're 15, somebody tells you they love you...  

Ashley [00:37:08] Yes, 15 literally just like the song says. I just feel like I've grown up with her my whole life and I love her. And I think she's only gotten better with age and time. Her music has gotten better, her writing has gotten better. I think she's an amazing poet, really. And I have immense respect for her as a person.  

Sarah [00:37:32] And very devoted. You spent 8 hours getting these tickets. Now, Maggie, how did you end up at the Eras Tour. 

Maggie [00:37:37] Well, Alise, who is not here-- I feel like it's maybe wrong that Alise isn't here because she's the true Swifty on our team.  

Sarah [00:37:44] The problem is she's not seeing her for like three more months. 

Ashley [00:37:45] That's so true. Yeah, she's going later. But she told me about the pre-sale and I was like, "Well, that sounds like fun." And she has a show that I went to in Tampa and there was another one in Atlanta, and it's like close to my friend's birthday. And I was like, "I would like to go with her." So, I was like, sure. And I signed up for the pre-sale and then I got the tickets.  

Sarah [00:38:05] There are Swifties in our audience who have not been able to get tickets. They are hearing this story, Maggie, and we maybe shouldn't even imagine a fine information like your last name.  

Ashley [00:38:12] I had a lot of time that day and I just happened to be on the computer all day, so it wasn't any trouble to wait in the queue. I feel like-- what is that movie? Legally Blonde, where she talks about getting into Harvard Law School and she's like," What? Like, it's hard?" 

Sarah [00:38:27]  I love it so much. And that sort of was my attitude. I was really into her Fearless album. I loved Love Story in law school. I was way past that stage of life, but I fell hard for that album. And then I'm just going to be honest, I kind of fell out with her for a little while. It was so different from where I was in my life. And I really have to identify with what they're singing about to a certain extent. I can go back with Olivia Rodrigo and revisit my younger heartbreak in like two hot minutes. But I kind of was like, I got married when I was 21. So this single life Taylor was not speaking to me, you know what I'm saying? And then I've sort of fallen back into step with her in Folklore, and Midnights I think is fantastic. And the main thing is I just like a scene. I just really like a scene. It's why I hate football. But I had a great time at the University of Alabama football game. Like, I just love a scene. And let me tell you, this was a scene. First of all, I have made it very clear that I like to attend things where costumes are required. The costumes, theTaylor Swift couture, I have never seen so many sequins in my whole life. My friend Kate who went with me and Ashley, and Ashley's friend Katie, we got there and she goes, "I wish people dress like this every day." And it's true. It was just incredible.  

Ashley [00:39:42] Same. I felt like it was like going to a sporting event, but it was like all one team. It was like the best.  

Sarah [00:39:50] In my DM's called a poor man's Met Gala and I about died because that is the most accurate thing I've ever heard in my whole life. A poor man's Met Gala. People were decked. I was decked out. I wore a full sequined jumpsuit with a sequin corset on underneath it.  

Ashley [00:40:07] I loved it.  

Sarah [00:40:10] Asheyy had on sequins. We all had on sequins. Ashley, you texted me and you're like, "Here's my outfit." And I was like, "Wait, wait, wait. I need an outfit? Hold on.".  

Ashley [00:40:18] I know. I was like, well, I've seen her before. So this is the third time I've seen her. I saw her on Rqeputation, which was her last tour. And then I saw her during Fearless, I believe, when I was much younger. Even Reputation definitely has a style, obviously. But I didn't necessarily dress all the way up for those two tours. But with this tour's theme being Eras and all the different eras of Taylor Swift, which looks so different and sound so different, which is why I think really the tour was so great. It was kind of like, wait a second, this is kind of fun. We could kind of choose which Taylor we want to be, what style we like. And of course it's an opportunity to dress up or just dress differently than you would normally. And yeah, of course [Inaudible]. I don't know if you heard of it, Sarah, but I knew that if you did that you would be getting [inaudible].  

Sarah [00:41:11] I was like, "Oh, well, okay, let's do this. Let's go. I'm in. I'm all the way in."  

Maggie [00:41:16] Watching the people walk in me, my friend who I went with, we were like, "Any single one of these people could be the performer tonight and I would be satisfied."  

Sarah [00:41:27] Well, listen, she came. Correct. It's not like she wore one costume. She wore like 20 costumes. I love a costume change. And that's definitely the most I've ever seen at a single concert. I mean, it's a very long concert. She's at it for 3 hours. It's incredible just how long it is. I mean, I guess it makes sense. We're going through all the eras. There's like 10 albums or something. So, just the length of the concert and how long it took her and the changes, I love all of it. I will say the visual component of this concert is like nothing I've ever seen. Just incredible.  

Ashley [00:42:09] I almost never have these questions, but I have questions like how is she this fit? Like, just vocally that fit. Like 3 hours of constant singing. I feel like she must have been lip syncing a little bit. Like it was 3 hours of singing.  

Sarah [00:42:22] And she does it like three times in a row, three in a row, cause she added all the dates. 

Ashley [00:42:26] When she finally sat down on that little house. I was like, "God, I'm so tired for you." I  was so tired for her. I still want to know her physical fitness. I'm sure that she has all of the best trainers. But when she's done, does she just go into a hot tub or cold tub?  

Sarah [00:42:48] The stage itself is so huge. When she crosses it like width wise, she is in a dead run and it takes her 20 seconds. It's huge. Doing the width part of that part that comes out into the audience. That part is so huge. And just the energy. We were at literally Energy stadium. 72,000 people sold out three nights in a row. I texted my husband and I said, she is making so much money. And good for her. I did some rough back of the napkin math.  

Ashley [00:43:23] At the concert literally.  

Sarah [00:43:26] At the concert, yes, while we were waiting. Because I was like, okay, 26 dates. And see, I had the wrong dates because now there's 52/57. I mean, it's estimated like $500 million. That's after expenses. It's just mind blowing. And when she came out and 72,000 people were screaming her name dressed up for her, went to all this effort, and she was like, "You make me feel powerful." And I was like, that's right, girl. That's the right word. And that's the word you should use. I know words are your thing. That's it. Don't do this like I'm this every woman. No, you are dominating. Own that. I'm so happy. She kissed her bicep. It was so cute. She was like, "I feel powerful." I was like, "You should. You absolutely should."  

Ashley [00:44:12] It's so true. And I feel like people were asking me, was it the best concert you've ever been to? Which people ask me that about tons of shows. And first of all, I feel like that's a really hard question to answer because shows are so vastly different. It's like comparing apples and oranges or whatever. But like you said, it's a three hour show, a three hour set, which is incredibly uncommon outside of like Garth Brooks or something.  

Sarah [00:44:36] Bruce Springsteen has a reputation for this, but he's even too old for that now. His have gotten shorter.  

Ashley [00:44:40] Yes. People point to that and some comments of something I saw. But even that is hard to compare to this because it's just incredibly different than what that show would be.  

Sarah [00:44:49] We're not getting 10 costume changes with Bruce Springsteen. You know, I'm saying.  

Ashley [00:44:52] I said I don't know, but it's the most fun I've ever had. I had so much fun.   

Sarah [00:44:58] I was just impressed by the the set design and just so many cool effects. And I, unlike Ashley and Kate, didn't know what was coming at every second of the concert because I like to be surprised. So, when she did her little cool dive thing and swam under the stage, I didn't know that was coming and I was blown away.  

Ashley [00:45:18] You lost your mind.  

Sarah [00:45:19] I did. I was like, "Oh, what happened.".  

Maggie [00:45:20] I knew it was coming and it blew my mind.  

Ashley [00:45:23] I know, that's what I'm saying. It's like people are like you could know. I looked up the setlist ahead of time. It's what Sarah is referring to. Me and Kate looked up the setlist.There's still some surprises. She has surprise songs every concert. But I generally knew what songs were coming, but it was funny to experience it with Sarah because Kate was like, "She's acting like she's literally swimming under the stage right now. That's how Sarah is reacting." 

Sarah [00:45:51] It's true. Because that's how impressive it is if you're seeing for the first time. Well, what was your favorite part of the show? My favorite part was definitely when we entered Taylor's coven and they were like witches and they were holding balls of fire. I was like, h, I love this witch season. We have entered. This is fantastic. I'm here for that. And I also very much like the part where they pounded the car. That just meant something I was feeling in my life. I don't know, but I just loved it. I loved the very clever use of the sets and to just really build a vibe. And there were, again, like 45 vibes over the course of the show, but those were my favorite.  

Ashley [00:46:28] I liked Evermore for sure, because I think you pointed this out during the show too, which is the album is a quieter album in general compared to other albums she has, and I think they made it so visually interesting. I feel like the evermore set was just completely entrancing and intriguing while you're watching it, even though the songs are like slower and not as loud.  

Sarah [00:46:56] It's like making her pick a child, you guys. A favorite child.  

Ashley [00:47:00] I don't know. I'm going to think about it.  

Sarah [00:47:03] What about you, Maggie? You're not as passionate as Swifty. What part really caught you off guard and you really loved it?  

Ashley [00:47:10] It's kind of the whole experience. But this is embarrassing. What was the last song she sang? Like her [inaudible].  

Sarah [00:47:19] Karma. That's the best part. She's like, this is the last song and then we're out. Because I think anchors are dumb. It's also perfomartive.  

Ashley [00:47:25] She took a bow and then she was like, "You guys want one more, don't you?" And then she [inaudible] Karma. And it was super fun. And I loved the costumes and the jacket. I thought that was fun. I think I also would have really loved Shake It Off, except that I was like, so up high that  the whole stadium was shaking. Like, really leaning to my understanding that if it wasn't moving, that would be more likely to collapse. But I was like a little bit like [crosstalk]. 

Sarah [00:47:53] There is a moment where you're in this crowd. I had that moment with Anti-Hero, which is off her newest album and a massive TikTok, Instagram reels, sound bite, right? Everybody knows it and everybody's singing along with complete and total joy in a band that was 72,000 people, it's just a very special experience. The last time I had it at that level was with Paul McCartney when we were all singing Hey Jude, and I thought, this is the coolest thing I've ever done. She met that moment. She's so interesting because I think it's such a weird paradox that she is so famous and yet her songs are so personal. So, we're all wrapped up in this ten minute version where she is just putting this ex-boyfriend, Jake Gyllenhaal, on blast. And I'm thinking what a mind fuck to be 72,000 people are singing along as I just strip him bare and transform this thing that happened to me into this anthem that 72,000 people are singing along with me. It's just so weird. You think about her and what that must be like, and then you think about your own experiences. It's incredible.  

Ashley [00:49:09] She said at one of the tours when she was singing that song is that was such a hard song to sing for a long time. And she talks about how the fans have embraced the ten minute version and all of it makes it not hurt anymore.  

Sarah [00:49:23] Oh, I love that.  

Maggie [00:49:25] I know. But I do think that this is a weird experience for me is that I have never been to a stadium concert before. This was my first stadium concert because I don't like crowds or loud noises, but I just want to go again. Can I get tickets to Atlanta next week? I can't.   

Sarah [00:49:47] You want to go to Taylor Swift again or you want to go to a just another stadium concert?  

Ashley [00:49:53] I want to go to Taylor Swift and also Lizzo. I realized Lizzo was like in Knoxville last weekend and my best starters went to Lizzo. And I was like how do I do that?  

Sarah [00:50:01] I'm going to Beyonce and I can't wait. Now, it is really fun. Now, Ashley and Kate made fun of me because I have never attended a concert without napkins in my ears. And that is why I can hear the frequency only teenagers can hear it. You should see the face Ashley is making right now. But I protect my hearing. It hurts. I cannot be in that sound level without something in my ears. It's painful.  

Ashley [00:50:20] When I came in the opener was playing and it was like a harsher guitar riff. And I was like, "This is too much. I'm saving my ear drums for Taylor, not you."  

Sarah [00:50:33] Yeah. No, but it is a very special experience, I think, to be among that many people just singing. I mean, it's so good for us to sing together. And when you're singing with that many people to a song that has such emotional resonance for so many people, it's just  very, very, very, very fun. I loved  It. I loved every minute of it. Collective joy, Effervescent. Yes. It's just great. Now, Ashley does have a request before we wrap up. She wants to know if anyone in the audience knows Taylor Swift. She's just trying desperately.   

Ashley [00:51:05] Give us your best connection.  

Sarah [00:51:07] She just wants to get in her orbit. Yes, she wants to get in her orbit. Send us at hello@pantsuitpolitics.com if you can get Ashley in Taylor Swift's orbit.  

Ashley [00:51:17] Yes. And if you know Taylor,  I'd like to do a friend endorsement here, which is that if you meet Ashley Taylor Swift, you will want to be her best friend, because that would be like universal experience of you meet Ashley, you want to be her best friend.  

Sarah [00:51:30] It's so true. I think that Taylor Swift puts on a hell of a show, and I know the tickets are very hard to get, but if you stumble across a pair, even if you're not a massive swifty, you should attend. It is an experience and it is a delightful experience. And I'm so glad I went.  

Ashley [00:51:48] Pay the money and go. As Sarah says, take your people and go.  

Sarah [00:51:52] Take your people and go. Thank you, Ashley, for taking us and inviting us along on this amazing Swifty journey.  

Ashley [00:51:58] It was a blast. You were baptized.  

Beth [00:52:03] Thank you Ashley and Maggie, for your guest appearances today. Thank you, Sarah, for a good conversation. Thank you all for listening. We are looking forward to seeing some of you in Fort Wayne, Indiana this week. And if you'd like us to come to your community, please do reach out to Alise to learn more about that. We'll be back in your ears on Friday. Until then, have the best week available.  

[00:52:39] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:52:45] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:52:51] Our show is listener-supported special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Danny Ozment.  
Beth Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

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