What We Can't Ignore from 2023

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • University Presidents go to Washington 

  • Turmoil in Congress

  • State Legislature

  • Stories from 2023 that We’re Still Thinking About

  • Outside of Politics: Renaissance: A Film by Beyonce

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:00:34] Welcome. We're so glad to have you here with us. As we near the end of 2023, feels like a good time to look back on some of the larger trends we saw at play this year. We're going to talk about illiberalism on college campuses and other places. We're going to talk about the dysfunction in Congress. We're going to talk about Donald Trump's increasing legal liability. We're going to talk about climate change. We're going to talk about geopolitical conflicts. You guys, there is a lot going on in 2023, and we're going to try to pick up some of the bigger threads and weave them together for you today here at Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:01:08] If you are new to our show, thank you for joining us. We would love for you to subscribe just to ensure that you're getting all of our new episodes. You're definitely not going to want to miss what's coming this Friday. Stick around to the end of today's episode to hear what that is. You need to hear it in Sarah's voice and Sarah's words with her enthusiasm. It's going to be a great show for you on Friday. So subscribe in any of your favorite podcast players to be sure that you're with us for every new episode.  

[00:01:32] Music Interlude.  

Sarah [00:01:49] The first trend we want to talk about was very well represented in the top story of the weekend, which was the testimony from the presidents of Harvard, MIT, and Penn before the House of Representatives on Friday. The answers the presidents gave to very simple questions like do calls for antisemitism violate your code of conduct were a bit problematic, to say the very least. This resulted in not just a Saturday Night Live cold open, but the resignation of M. Elizabeth Magill, the president of Penn, and the calls for resignation of the presidents of Harvard and MIT. And I think for me, when I look at this, Beth, it feels like a piece of a bigger trend, which was the reexamination of what I'm going to very academically call the growth of illiberalism among the progressive left in America. But if I was just writing an incendiary headline, I would say, is the woke fever breaking?  

Beth [00:02:53] I think the situation with the university presidents encapsulates so many trends, and that's why it is really breaking through to so many different people. Trends about higher education, trends about partisanship, anti-Semitism, obviously the conflict with Israel and Gaza. I mean, just so many things are wrapped up in this one episode. To your point about illiberalism, the struggle that I have with this particular episode is that this Congress comes at this issue not asking how can we be helpful, but how can we be hostile? And so I think these presidents did such a poor job and their testimony was such a failure, in part because they knew they were walking into a hostile place. You watch this and you just think this is all so gross. And I'm not criticizing Elise Stefanik even. I do not enjoy Elise Stefanik and do not think she has done a good job in Congress. And her questions were straightforward and simple. They were not a trap. It should be easy to say calls for the genocide of Jews violate our policies and are morally wrong and are threatening to our students, and we cannot have that. I think the harder question is what do we do on the other side of that? Do we want to kick out students who have gotten radicalized by TikTok, who are participating in protests, who are trying to express viewpoints that are unpopular here in this room, but that have a lot of support in the world? This is a very thorny issue. What do we want to do about it? And you just wish that the conversation could be, hey, we have a federal partnership, we invest in higher education, so what should we do? Instead of getting just stuck in this loop of it's a yes or no question and you're giving this very legalistic answer that you can't possibly anywhere in your soul think is an appropriate response to this question. And I think that is what illiberalism has done to us, that we make it so that we are so carefully walking around and perceiving everything as a trap everywhere. And these universities have absolutely contributed to that problem. And so how do we get out of that? What's our step forward on that path?  

Sarah [00:05:12] Yeah. I mean, the other trend present here is the dysfunction of Congress. It's not like there's not trends of illiberalism among the House of Representatives, including Elise Stefanik, who if we want to go all the way back around full circle, got kicked off of the board of the Kennedy School of Government for her support of election denial. So, I mean, we got a lot going on here, friends.  

Beth [00:05:34] A lot going on.  

Sarah [00:05:35] It's not just a hostile environment at Congress. It's a hostile environment on those university campuses. The hypocrisy with what I can only describe as a trigger finger, denying people tenure, firing faculty and staff, denying students acceptance letters because of social media posts, just the hair trigger with any criticism of DEI initiatives, affirmative action, any sort of racially tinged or sexually tinged, not just social media post, but academic posture is enough. It's enough, you're gone. And that's a hostile environment that we hear a lot about as we travel to college campuses, not just for faculty and staff, but for the students themselves. There is a sense that you are being watched, you are being surveilled, and it takes very, very little to lose everything. And that's what I heard from these presidents. They're scared. They're scared of their own student bodies. I don't think that you can have a robust educational environment when you are scared of the students. And that's what we hear. This is not me expounding because I've been watching a lot of Ben Shapiro. This is me speaking from what we hear from students and staff and faculty as we travel the country. Everybody is terrified of saying or doing the wrong thing that is not a robust environment for free speech, much less education. And I think you heard that from their answers. They were so scared to say the wrong thing. I don't know if it's over lawyering or if it's just that sense of anything I say will get twisted into-- among these universities there was overcorrection on both sides, both the anti-Semitic side and the Islamophobic side post October 7th. But it's like this can be done. I don't know if we ever talked about this on the show or on the premium channels, but there was a moment at Stanford where they invited a federal judge and this professor was ugly to him. The protesters were ugly with him. It was a very intense environment. And Jenny Martinez, the dean of the Stanford Law School, wrote this letter that we'll share in the show notes. That's a masterclass on pushing and saying, no, this is what we do here and this is why this is a violation of what we do here. Let me lay this out. It's like a legal brief. It's so good. Let me lay this out as clearly as I can so it can be done. But they sure as heck weren't doing it during this testimony.  

Beth [00:08:10] I don't know if I buy the over lawyering because I think that part of what was going on here was just that these university presidents are disdainful of the Republicans who are questioning them on this committee. And I think that's a problem. That we can't have a serious conversation about serious issues because some people have behaved unseriously for so long that we treat each other like garbage. And that's a dynamic that flows in both directions that is just really hindering our ability as a country to solve any problems. It is toxic. I 100% agree with you about the Jenny Martinez approach. As I was listening to this hearing, I kept thinking about how powerful inertia is and how because universities and colleges and shoot even elementary schools and middle schools are thundering through curriculum at a breakneck pace and are working so hard to meet the standards that have been set for a course for a semester and get to finals and comply with all the deadlines, there is no chance to take a pause and react to things going on in the world. This is true in businesses. It's true in churches. It is a struggle for me to be anywhere where we're supposed to seriously be making meaning that isn't talking about Israel and Gaza. It's just a struggle for me to be in any space where it's not being addressed because it is huge. It's one of the most significant things that we'll live through. If my university can't stop and say, I know that this isn't what we're supposed to be focused on right now, but how can we not be focused on it? And I'm going to adjust. I'm going to spend some time on the history here. We're going to learn some things that make all of us uncomfortable because there is not a neat and tidy story about how we got here. What are you doing, especially in college? What are you doing if you don't take a break? Students should have a lot of avenues available to them to work this stuff out. Protests should not be the first and only go to. And that, to me, is a problem. That students are immediately going to protest in so many different contexts when the classroom should be the place. Not that they can't protest, but the first place ought to be the classroom. And I have a feeling it's not because everyone, as you said, feels surveilled. One of the things that we hear when we're out and about is I think people feel trapped in the surveillance because the presence of cameras feels both protective and also like the risk. It's like I need the camera to be there to show that I did what I was supposed to do. But also the presence of all the cameras means that my comments will be taken out of context, they'll be clipped, they'll be shared on social media. I could go viral for something that is altered in a way that I never would have predicted. So it's a mess right now.  

Sarah [00:11:04] Well, and it's so discouraging to me because the trend that I felt I was recognizing before October 7th was that we were getting somewhere. We were chipping away at some conversations. I was seeing a lot of editorials and long reads and people saying, hey, you know what? I think we over-corrected. I think that this is important and essential and the way that we wanted to, particularly on the progressive left, address institutionalized sexism and institutionalized racism, led to counterproductive strategies and tendencies. Where people felt shut down and shut out and we couldn't move forward and we got stuck. We had some of the conversations like that on the show. We were trying to go somewhere. We were trying to say, what did we mess up? What could we do better? How can we get to a place where people feel listened to and included? And of course, in a perfect world, academia would be a center of that. There would be a lot of conversation. There would be a lot of inclusion. There would be a marketplace of ideas where someone could exercise some really heinous ideas and we could say, "Is the answer censorship or is the answer a better idea?" We had that conversation with Yascha Mounk on our show. And it's just often these trends that we're talking about are not compartmentalized. And so what you have is an examination of approaches and strategies from previous moments of crisis during the pandemic and during the racial reckoning in the summer of 2020, intersecting with current global political crisis. And I think the conflict in Israel just blew everything up. People feel threatened, rightfully so. People feel hurt and brokenhearted, rightfully so. People are in full on crisis mode depending on where and how their families were affected, be they in Palestine or Israel. Rightfully so. And I think again, in theory, in a moment like this, universities would be leading the way, not be before Congress because they are a hotbed of the type of conflict we would like to move past. They would be showing a better way. And sometimes that way is protest. Often that way includes protests. But to have that indirect contrast with these surveys where you're going up to students at protests and saying, "From which river to which sea," and they cannot answer that question, that's a problem. And to have the leadership of these universities not only refuse to acknowledge the problem, but make it worse is not encouraging.  

Beth [00:14:01] I think about all the opportunities present in an academic setting right now, and it really makes me sad that this is the dominant conversation. We are fortunate to know former Ambassador Swanee Hunt. I think about people like her who have spent a huge portion of their lives thinking about peace and what it means to reach peace. Not in a can we be more civil to each other way, but in actual places that are torn apart by violence and war, humanitarian crises. If you are at Harvard or Penn, these schools have access to the best minds, the most experienced people. Bring them in, put a pause on everything. Bring them in and say this is clearly on everyone's minds, so we want to talk about what actually is it that you think should be done in this situation. Do you know about Iranian proxy groups in the region? How does that figure in? Where should refugees go? What rights do refugees have? There are so many aspects to this where you could take this horror and really develop thinkers, leaders, people who will be the future ambassadors and peace negotiators and presidents and senators and equip them to deal with crises like this in the future. And I just think you're doing such a disservice to students by saying the only thing that we're going to really consider here are your free speech rights. That is a minor issue in the scope of this conflict.  

Sarah [00:15:38] Well, and look, I don't want to pretend that what happens at Harvard and MIT and Penn is reflective of what happens everywhere. But we do hear a similar trend at all universities and it's not irrelevant either. That's why Congress pulled their butts up there. What happens at elite universities gets a lot of coverage for good or for not. And so just to pretend that what's happening at elite universities doesn't affect what happens at elite media institutions and elite institutions like Congress, where Elise Stefanik graduated from, you guessed it, Harvard, so it matters. And so it's this very complex dance where I don't want to say because they screwed it up, all is lost in academia. But I do think that it is reflective of a wider trend. That doesn't mean I don't think we should hold Congress's feet to the fire. I don't blame them. The disdain is well-earned at this point. What have we seen this year? We have seen a slow rolling disaster among House Republicans. We started the year with Kevin McCarthy going, what, 14, 15 rounds to get elected. He managed to do a couple of things, including funding the government in the short term and avoid the debt ceiling crisis. Kudos. But then they kicked him out and then we went weeks without a speaker of the House. Now we have this rash of retirements. And it's just this complete and total mess among the Republican Party in the House of Representatives. To me, I want to compartmentalize this trend. I want to say this is a mess in the Republican Party, but what we've seen this year is like it affects everybody. It affects the functioning of Congress. It affects all of us as much as we want to pretend it's just them in disarray, like we're a two party system. That's what I've been struggling with this whole year. It's like all I've wanted is for people to see how morally bankrupt these people are. And now that it's playing out in this very obvious way, I'm like, oh, no.  

Beth [00:17:43] It is hard enough that the House of Representatives has to function two years at a time. Two years is so short, it goes by so quickly. They are now functioning weeks at a time, sometimes days at a time, sometimes hours at a time. And there's too much power in that body for it to be beholden to some really petty personal disputes. That is my biggest problem with this House of Representatives. It is personal. These aren't even ideological fights. This makes the Tea Party look high minded because at least that was about something. Now, some of that something was really toxic and racist and a reaction to the election of Barack Obama. There were pieces of it, though, that were about fiscal responsibility or your sense of what the government ought to do. And I don't think that is where we want to go in the future. I'm just saying by comparison this is like a bar fight every day playing out in the halls of Congress. And no wonder people don't want to be part of it anymore. I understand the folks who are saying I think I can make more of a difference as a college president. I think I can make more of a difference in the private sector. I think I can make more of a difference as a dad. I'm just going to go home and be a dad and try to take care of my family. I understand why people are leaving and I am worried about it because the people asking those questions are the very people that we want there.  

Sarah [00:19:16] Yeah, I thought we'd already kicked out all the moderates from the Republican Party. And now the people that are leaving are not even people I would describe as moderates. They're just like constitutionalists. And that's concerning. To me, when you talk about this particular trend, it's so wide. We've been wanting to have this conversation on the show for a long time about just the dysfunction among state legislators. In Tennessee you have the expulsion of the Justin's- Justin Jones and Justin Pearson. In Montana you have the expulsion of Zooey Zephyr. Oregon has like all but ground to a complete halt. You have the impeachment that never came in Texas of Ken Paxton. So you just have all these dysfunction spreading, not just in the house, not just in the Senate. And I think when you said that like, well, it's personal. And I'm like, right, because there's no leadership saying this is what we stand for because they are still pledging fealty to Donald Trump, who has no value prioritization, has no policy, except for, as far as I can tell it right now, revenge. You can just track it with the increased liability and stress and anger and frustration of him personally, as is the other big thing that happened this year, which is more and more legal liability for him. It's like it's all tied up together. They're looking to him. He's furious at this tightening sense of consequence, both personally and professionally but not politically. So it's just like this toxic stew that just keeps-- I mean, I think we've gone from simmering to a boil at this point. And I'm trying to figure how many more metaphors can I toss into this toxic stew. I don't know. But I'll keep trying because I don't know how to describe what's happening right now.  

Beth [00:21:04] I know. I feel very negative today, and I hate being in that place because on the whole I remain an optimist in life, in the world about our country. In the bucket or the soup part of Trump's legal liability, I am concerned about the test that poses for our justice system. Which wasn't doing great before this in terms of people's trust and confidence in the Supreme Court. Putting issues directly in front of this Supreme Court about this former president makes me very, very nervous. I covered today on our premium show have More to Say, the order from the district judge in the January 6th case denying his motion to dismiss on the basis of executive immunity. And the hard question here to me is not whether he's immune from prosecution. I think he pretty clearly is not. The hard question is timing. As a criminal defendant, he has a right to appeal this order. He has a right to ask for a stay pending the appeal of this order. If she denies that stay, he has a right to appeal her denial of the stay. And so you have all of these procedural things that can happen that are perfectly within his rights as a defendant, that are critical to defendants in our criminal system, and each of them jeopardize the possibility of having a trial in advance of the 2024 election. And that stress on this system is a stress that this system, I think, is unprepared for. And no wonder that's not of anybody's failure. How could you foresee the situation that we find ourselves in, even as we did foresee it in lots of other places in our constitutional design? This particular confluence of events is so hard, and I don't know that the public can follow the events in enough detail. And that's also not a criticism. It's just a fact. It's a complex set of circumstances. I don't know that we can follow it in enough detail to see it as anything other than good or bad that the trial gets delayed if it does. You know what I mean?  

Sarah [00:23:21] Well, my optimism says that all of these trends will continue into 2024. That's not the optimistic take. That's discouraging. But I don't think the House of Representatives is going to magically become a symbol of productivity and policy minded prioritization. I don't anticipate that happening under the leadership of Mike Johnson. I don't anticipate a lot of this getting better at the state level. I think you will still continue to see the breakdown in a lot of these state legislators as well. And I don't anticipate, even as it becomes more complex, an end to Trump's legal liability. And I even with the Electoral College cannot fathom a scenario where independent voters, swing voters look and go, "That's what I want." I want the dysfunction. I want the fighting. I want the you think I'm vermin? I want the what happens if he becomes president and is found guilty of all these things? I cannot fathom that. Now, a lot could happen between now and then. But because I think these overlapping trends within the Republican Party are only going to get worse. And we have no indication that voters are rewarding this path in the Republican Party except for the hardcore extremists within the party. But that's not a path to a general election victory. I just have to believe that people will continue to see this and go, "No, thank you."  

Beth [00:25:10] So I've been thinking about this a lot, that current polling, which suggests that he does have a path to winning the election, may be less about the desires people will have come next November and more about an expression of current frustration, which I think belongs on our trend list. Because citizens who do not engage in the political process outside of presidential elections don't have a lot of places to put their political frustration. It's kind of like students in protest, right? If everything were firing on all cylinders, I think we'd all be less mad about politics all the time because there'd be lots of places to put our civic feelings. There'd be lots of ways to engage in the civic problem solving process. I actually was just having lunch, funnily enough, with a former professor who left academia to work on policy. And we were talking about leadership programs in the community and how those programs are great, except that you graduate from it and then what? What's the next step to really plug in and use what it is that you've learned? And how are we accountable to that? And what kind of commitment should we be making when we join those programs? And I see this more and more as we discuss the 2024 election and the discussion that surrounds people's reasoning in polls has less to do with the two candidates and the choice that we'll be faced with next year and more to do with their dissatisfaction with just how things are right now. And I similarly feel dissatisfied with how things are right now. I don't blame the president for that. I just feel a sense of despair about the world. And I think it is hard not to, so I get it. But I have lots of places to put those feelings. And I can see where many people do not.  

Sarah [00:27:03] Yeah, that's what I was thinking about this when I was having a conversation with my father about politics. One of the first ones we've had since he's moved in with us. And I thought, it's just so hard to say to him, "I agree with you that that's a problem. And also two things. I do not think that is Biden causing the problem and I do not think Donald Trump is the solution." But it is hard because you get in this path where it's like you just want to do what Gavin Newsom did at that debate, which is everything's great; we never make a mistake. That happens a lot with the progressive left all the way back to our first trend, which is we have a monopoly on being right. We see the problem the best and we never do anything wrong. Does anybody believe that? I sure as heck don't. We have seen this trend here on the podcast where we're trying to scratch at something. Why is there this disjointed reality between the economic indicators and the polling on the economy? What's that about? And people heard us telling them that things were okay. That's not what we were saying, not what we were saying at all. With a similar experience with the religious non conversation where we were trying to just say that's weird, right? And people heard us saying everything's great or no, the success sequence is good. When we were just like that's a weird thing we do. And so it's like this trap we can even get in with the podcast where we're just trying to articulate both there's a problem, there's a solution available. All is not lost. We don't want to get into despair, but we want to be transparent and honest about the challenges in front of us. And it's difficult. It's difficult with the other trends we're going to talk about with climate, with geopolitical conflict. How do we say, hey, something's not right? And also all is not lost.  

Beth [00:28:55] Especially when no one whether it's the two of us on this show or a university or Congress, no one, no body, can contain every experience that is relevant to defining a problem and examining possible solutions. That sense that we have to be speaking in the box that has been defined as sort of the acceptable box or the politically pragmatic box, the box that best gives us a chance to do the most important thing is really limiting. And the way I think you get out of feeling so limited is having a sense of trust for the people that you're speaking with. And our trust is really broken down right now. You can say all those things are true to your dad because you love each other and you know that your love can survive a fight about politics. You know that your love can survive even you two being mad at each other about something political because you keep practicing it and doing it over and over, and in other ways surrounding each other with love, in other ways building that trust bank. I don't know where that's happening on a more macro level, and it concerns me.  

Sarah [00:30:13] I will say I do see that happening in places. I didn't put Taylor Swift on the list because I know everybody's tired of us talking about her and tired of everybody talking about her. But I do see macro trends in things like the Eras tour, in Barbie, in Oppenheimer, in all the travel people are taking, in all the concerts they're going to, in the ways they were, like, I want to go and be in the world. I find it encouraging that the discussion around online dating where people were like, "You know what? That didn't work and I don't want to do it anymore. And I would like to engage romantically with people in a more analog fashion." Because I do think the undercurrent that is going on here is that post-pandemic, we are examining what we're doing online and how it is affecting our offline life. I think that it is alongside a growing conversation concerning the growing influence of artificial intelligence. The technology is advancing. At the same time we're going, what's happening? Is this working? Another thing that we've seen a lot is increased attempts at legal liability for online platforms. You have all these suits against Meta about the behavior towards teenagers at Instagram. There's just an increased conversation generally around social media and teenagers and what is this doing to us? And I am encouraged by that conversation. I think it is more widespread. I think this generation, this extremely online generation, is thinking and talking about this. Some of it's happening on TikTok. That's paradoxical, I get it. But at least it's happening. At least we're thinking like, wait. Even just like the growth of the flip phones where you can link your number and literally just take a really good flip phone with you and not have a smartphone with you all the time. I just think all these pieces are a part of us asking, what is this doing to us? Are we happy with it? It does feel like the conversation is getting more complex and advancing past just polarization. I don't know.  

Beth [00:32:19] I think that's good. I like that. If I were to create a wish for that to expand in 2024, I think two components of it might be that as we are designing things at organizational levels, that we spend more time asking what we are not going to do than what we're going to do. Because I think everyone feels so strapped right now for time and resources and energy more than anything. So there's always this sense, especially in January, that we need to create a bunch of things. And I think we need to strip away a bunch of things. And so I think that would be one part of my wish. The other part would be to really walk back the pervasive marketing culture that we all have internalized. So there is a sense that if we are going to try to address a problem, that we need a program to address it. And that program needs a name and a logo and explicit design that is rolled out. I hear the word launch in almost every context that I'm part of, and I don't think that we need to be launching everywhere. And I don't think everything needs a logo or a name. And I think a lot of places right now just really need some space and some time and some care. And so how can we give more of that to each other as we try to tackle that sense of what technology has done to our IRL existences?  

Sarah [00:33:54] Well, it's funny you should say that. I'm currently reading Raising Hell Living Well by Jessica Elefante. Freedom From Influence in a World Where Everyone Wants Something From You. And it's a great conversation about that influence. And I see that conversation taking place in a lot of different circumstances. I think that is something we are examining and looking at. And as I look at our list of other things where we're dealing with in trends, when I look at that it was just so damn hot this year that climate change continues to grow and that the harsh effects of those events continue to grow, that we do have these geopolitical realities in Ukraine, in Gaza, and all the coups that took place in Africa, all these places, I just think well artificial intelligence can grow, the Internet can grow, but there's just some hard realities that are going to keep us in our bodies in a real, real way. Even if you're not in Gaza. You and I were just having a conversation about the effects of this geopolitical event on our bodies. I just feel it in my body and I don't live there. I live so far away. Can you fathom what that means, not just for the thousands and thousands and thousands of people who have lost their lives, but just the ways it's going to be carried in the bodies of all the people around them? I just think about how weird it is that we have this growing sense that we live online when it feels like our lived reality is screaming at us, no, you don't. You don't live online. You live in Hawaii where things can catch on fire. You live across Middle America where you're getting smoke from Canada. You live in Ukraine, where a war is stretching into its second year. You live in Europe, where that war is just across the border. You live in a place even like fentanyl, where this drug is seeping into every place in American life and the life, the breath is gone like that. I just think about these very palpable ways that it feels like the universe is saying, don't fool yourself. Yes, there is misinformation. Yes, there is a truth deficit. Yes, there are these false events. But I am reminding you that you live in a body and you live here now on this ground in that body.  

[00:36:18] Music Interlude.  

Beth [00:36:29] I've been thinking about this and I want to learn a lot more about this before I say too much, but the fact that Armenia and Azerbaijan are negotiating what is hoped to be a durable peace agreement without a mediator is striking to me. And I have wondered if the fact that so much global attention is focused on Ukraine and Israel, if that has in some ways created a little bit of space: Russia's occupation with Ukraine versus being very focused on Azerbaijan here. I just wonder if turning some attention away has opened up some avenues for these two nations to work through their conflict. This is something I want to pay a lot of attention to in 2024. Where are we with our attention contributing to problems instead of contributing solutions? I think the past couple of years have really trained me in that mindset of if you aren't looking, you're part of the problem. If you're not speaking about it, you're part of the problem. If you're caring about anything else, you're part of the problem right now. You should have a singular focus on this specific part of the world. And I think that's not true.  

Sarah [00:37:48] And the problem should be all encompassing. It's a problem from the beginning. It's a problem that's set into everything. It's baked into all our history. It's baked into everything we do. It's just the problem is the universe in which we exist. Capitalism is the problem. Colonialism is the problem. Racism, sexism. This world is the problem and you can't do shit about it. I understand what you're articulating. I feel it. I don't care for it.  

Beth [00:38:13] Well, and because it's all baked into every system, you should see it everywhere. You should talk about it everywhere.  

Sarah [00:38:19] All the time.  

Beth [00:38:20] And I don't think that is necessarily wrong. I'm not trying to deny the truth flowing through that instinct, but I also want to pay attention to places in the universe where we're getting out of our lanes and we're getting out of our lanes is destructive for people. And so my interest is really piqued by these negotiations in this particular part of the world that doesn't generate a lot of headlines right now because I wonder if some space and whatever the global version is of something like privacy helps.  

Sarah [00:39:03] Yeah. I just finished To Heal a Fractured World by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks. And he is battling with so much of this within the pages of this book. He talks about the difference between faith and optimism. That optimism is passive. And the faith that he is articulating within the theology of Judaism is active, that it is to find your private path forward. What is it that you are called to do after the first step of recognizing those problems? And I just think that it's so hard to balance what you are articulating. To say, I see the problem. I recognize the problem. What's my path for me? We've used that language before, but it did feel like our path was to just call it out all the time, every moment, every second, every day. I feel like that's what you should do. And it's like I'm not looking to beat ourselves up for that. I just don't want to stay there if it's not working and I don't think it's working. And I think where I see a trend that lights a path forward and is an optimistic trend is the growing labor movement. Where it's like now we're done articulating the problems, well, now we are going to look to each other together for a solution for a path forward. And I think when you look at that trend you have to say it's not just because the labor leaders or the employees themselves are just good, great heroes. It's that the conditions were right. We had a strong labor market. We had a moment in time where there were enough jobs for everybody.  

[00:40:40] That's a piece of the puzzle too. That's not to take away from the people who are organizing as I think what they've done in the writers strike all the way to the auto strike, to the train operators, all of that is so important. I think it's just to say, see, there were conditions that were right. There were conditions that were right for us to see and call out those problems. And now we have to find and take advantage of conditions that are right for us to say, well, now it's a solution time or now this is the solution that's presented to us. And that's harder no doubt about it. No doubt about it. It's definitely harder in an online space where so often the context is stripped away. But these growing labor movements are not a success of online organizing. That's not what's happening there. That's the success of in-person organizing. And I don't think that should be missed either. And I think it's a success of administration that supports labor. I think that's a piece of the puzzle too. I think even in these positive trends you have to sort of scrape away at all the layers too, so it doesn't become a simplified narrative that ends up being disempowering.  

Beth [00:41:52] And to this point of what is my work to do? What is my lane? Labor movements are successful when all of the people involved are operating within their sphere of expertise. The general support of the internet for labor, I think, helps. It's also true that these deals get negotiated around specific things that those of us not in the industry often are not even aware of and certainly can't contribute great ideas about. I learned so much this year about the conditions for people who work on railroads. Things I had just no awareness of whatsoever. and it was meaningful for me to learn those things. But I don't sit in my house and speak about it like I have all the answers here. I don't. I don't have the answers about artificial intelligence and its uses in Hollywood. I don't have the answers about what is really needed inside car manufacturers, especially as the automobile industry continues this massive transition. And I think it's a good combination of pressure and release for the public to see these dynamics happening and feel like, well, we all have some skin in the game in that a big strike has a massive effect on the economy, but we don't have so much skin in the game that we all need to debate the fine points of these issues. And I hope that gives us a little bit more of a roadmap for some of the political issues that come in front of Congress. That's honestly the posture that I have tried to take in talking about Israel. I try to understand and I try to learn. Also, I do not pretend to know how this should proceed militarily or diplomatically, because there are components of this that are outside my scope of expertise and always will be. And that is okay.  

Sarah [00:43:48] Well, and what I don't want to do is get stuck like the college presidents where I can't articulate a clear moral reality. I was really struck by a moment on NPR where they were talking about the U.N. Security Council vote. I don't remember who was speaking, but she was like, "We cannot give Israel carte blanche. That's not the reality of occupiers. There is responsibility, proportional torture treatment of civilians that must be articulated, that must be held to account. And I think that the labor movement to me is so encouraging because it's like when you bring all these people together of varying levels of stake, of varying levels of expertise, of varying roles, not just across the different labor movements, but within each movement itself. What is so encouraging is they are grappling with these trends that we're all talking about. They're grappling with artificial intelligence. They're grappling with inflation. They're grappling with cost of living. They're grappling with the housing market. All of that is baked into what they're discussing, what they're negotiating, what they're battling over. I wish that our jobs often weren't the fullest embodiment of the issues that come to play with us as citizens. But I guess that's not true, because also what's happening in these conversations is like your role as caregivers, your role as parents, it's all just in there.  

[00:45:14] I read this article in The Economist about infrastructure and how despite this once in a generation investment, the projects aren't on path. Infrastructure spending and building has not increased that much this year. And it was just this really fair sort of examination of why is that? And just the complexity of like, well, you had inflationary costs with construction. You have this whole other structure they're building between the states and the federal government and how are we going to allocate this money and how are we going to make decisions about where to build and who gets to build it? I mean, it wasn't even that long. Well, I thought, man, the next time somebody just wants to be like "The federal government..", I want to be like, "Read this and have an appreciation for the enormous complexity we are bringing to just the simple thing of, like, can we improve the stuff we use every day?" I think all these trends are just the fullest manifestation of the complexity of our modern existences, made even more complex by the fact that we live on the Internet and can both bring that complexity to bear and also strip it of all context all at the same time.  

Beth [00:46:26] It's true at every level too. There's a push going into the next legislative session in Kentucky for universal pre-K, which I support. I support it and also I have no idea here in my county where we would put that. Just space. I don't know where that would go. I think it would take years, even if we had adequate funding guaranteed into the future to build. It would take years to implement that. I don't know where the staff would come from to make that happen. I don't know who could adequately train the staff for everything that a preschooler needs in a setting like that. The hugely diverse range of needs that preschoolers walk in with. So it just kind of sets me in that mindset of grace for our systems, not being daunted by those challenges, but being careful about them and having the willingness to sit down with people who think that's a bad idea to at least refine the points of my idea that are weak. Like there are pressure points around any idea that really need to be thought through. And I guess that's what I keep kind of coming back to, the last few years. And I think a lot of this happened in my wiring because of the presidency of Donald Trump, where you feel like the stakes are so high, the threats are so extreme, there is little in him to admire or find any space around. And so you kind of shut down those aspects of your brain that allow you to piece through policy or even position more carefully.  

Sarah [00:48:15]  I don't feel hopeless or discouraged in the face of all this increased complexity and trends. Now, again, part of it is the posture of at least people are trying, at least people are paying attention. I do feel like the leadership of Joe Biden has restored an enormous amount of just normalcy, that when the problem or the crisis is big and overwhelming, I don't have to worry about the guy in charge being more concerned about his press coverage than the actual impact of the policy. So that's been great. I've really enjoyed that this year and every year since 2020. And, of course, that is something that we will have to continue to have conversations about as we go into a presidential election that looks increasingly like a rematch of 2020. But I don't see any of this, even the increasing-- I don't want to say strength because I don't think that Russia or China are operating from a place of increased strength, maybe increased boldness. Even if it's not on a strong foundation, I think that matters. I think it's a reality that we're going to have to continue to deal with. But, overall, I just see these trends pointing us to challenge us. We're in a time of transition. The world is changing. Technology is changing. The way we live our lives is changing, and those presents challenges. They present opportunities. When I look at this global landscape of trends, that's just what I see.  

[00:49:43] Music Interlude  

[00:50:02]  Beth, this weekend you went to see Renaissance and now it's already left my theater. I'm devastated, but I do want to hear about it because it sounds amazing.  

Beth [00:50:11] I loved this. Probably one of my favorite things I've seen in the theater this year.  

Sarah [00:50:15] Wow.  

Beth [00:50:16] I liked it better than Barbie. I'll say it. I am a casual Beyonce fan. It would not be accurate to call me part of the beehive. I just don't know her catalog that well. I saw her with Jay-Z years ago in Cincinnati at Great American Ballpark. Really enjoyed it. She's an incredible performer, obviously. But this film was created with such care and intentionality. Every frame you could feel her vision infused into. You could feel her sensibility. You could feel her artistry. It was not like going to see a concert at the movie theater, which is kind of how I understood it in the marketing or just the zeitgeist. I think it probably just suffered from always being mentioned with the Eras movie, but it was not that at all. Eras felt like Taylor saying, I wish that you could have all come, so I'll try to bring it to you. This was a film about the experience of putting together a tour with the ambition and scale of Renaissance. And Beyonce clearly wanted to showcase people in her industry who have not gotten the respect and credit that she thinks they deserve. She wanted to showcase her commitment to marginalized groups. She wanted to showcase her celebration of the gay underground ballroom dancing scene. She wanted to talk about the women construction workers who put the stage together. And it was just phenomenal. It was phenomenal. I feel like I understand a lot better that Beyonce is walking around being a visionary artist. The embodiment of fashion. An astute businesswoman who is also tired of people still questioning her. There's an amazing scene in the movie where she asks for a different camera lens to be used. And the camera guy tells her that there's not a better lens than the one he's using right now. And she's like, "Well, I just was reading about it on the Internet, so I know it exists." Just the lack of respect that she still has to deal with about how she feels as a mom and a wife and juggling all these things about the toll that her career has taken on her body and on her vocal cords. It was incredible. I cannot say enough about it.  

Sarah [00:52:45] I can't wait to see it. This is a very painful experience for me because I had tickets to Renaissance and I double booked myself. Second time I've had tickets to see Beyonce. I don't know why the universe doesn't want us to be together because I think that we belong together. I can't wait to see this. I guess I'll have to watch it streaming, which sucks. I would have liked to see it on the big screen. But I watched the documentary about her Coachella performance and it was just like that. It was just like, would you like to see someone-- I know we all joke like about that tweet Beyonce has the same hours in the day that we do. But you watch her and you're like, I'm not so sure. I think she's different. I think she's better. I think she channels something deeper and more profound and it's impressive. I mean, it's all inspiring. I mean, I think that that's the right word. It's just the standard of her artistry and her strategy. I use that word with the utmost respect. I just think she's so smart and creative and strategic. Talk about a mastermind. I mean, come on. I think any venue that puts that on full display is a gift.  

Beth [00:54:03] And I want to stress that this is not going to see the concert. You get to see a lot of her performances. But I left Eras really sad that I hadn't been to the concert. I left Renaissance feeling like I got a totally different experience than going to the concert would have been. I got to see sweeping shots of fans reacting to her performances. I got to see her in one song in multiple outfits. The fashion. You are going to love the fashion in this. It is amazing. I got to get all this behind the scenes about how she planned it and what she was going for, like her intention with the way she put it together. And I do feel really inspired by how much-- I think control is the wrong word, but it's close. That she says if it is going to be associated with me, then it is going to live up to my standards. It is going to be distinctive. It is going to be something that you cannot get from anyone else and it is going to be done the way I want it done. Just no notes. I just think that is exactly the kind of business creative, personal inspiration that I need. And for it to come from our contemporary, I mean, she's a 1981 baby like we are, and so all of her reflections in this film on the passage of time and where she is in her life and what's important to her right now hit me exactly where I am. So it was beautiful. I can't recommend going to see it enough.  

Sarah [00:55:37] I would like everyone to just close their eyes quietly and manifest reading a headline that Beyonce has added dates to her Renaissance tour. Maybe next year she'll be like, guys, I think we just need a few more. Does it seem like something she's to do because it's all so well planned out and strategy? But you never know because I'm going to go if she does. I'll be first in line. I mean I was first in line last time. I left my child's birthday party. I mean, it was at my house, but I stepped away as people were coming into the birthday party. I was like, sorry guys, I gotta get these tickets real fast. It's fine. That was like one of the biggest disappointments of 2023 for me, but I will survive it. Luckily, we're about to fulfill one of my greatest dreams here at Pantsuit Politics. On Friday. Guys tomorrow we're going to sit down with Secretary Hillary Clinton. [Applause] Do a little interview, we’re going to chat. We're friends. Like we just hang now. Me and her we just hang out on Zoom a lot. 2023 was the year of me and Hillary Clinton becoming best friends. So we cannot wait to share that conversation with you on Friday. Make sure you’re subscribed to the show on all your favorite podcast players so you don't miss it or any other episode for that matter, but particularly Friday's episode with Secretary Clinton. Until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

[00:56:54] Music Interlude  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

Maggie Penton1 Comment