A Fragile Ceasefire

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • OpenAI Corporate Drama

  • Misinformation and Social Media News

  • A Fragile Ceasefire in Gaza

  • Outside of Politics: Guy Friends

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude  

Sarah [00:00:34] Welcome to Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Today, we're covering the drama at OpenAI over the weekend, and the fragile ceasefire currently in place in Gaza. Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about friendships, specifically friendships between men and women.  

Beth [00:00:48] I think this is the hardest time of the year to make these episodes because we're all kind of done with anything that is not urgent or delightful. That's my calendar right now. The urgent and the delightful and everything else feels rough to me, and I kind of struggle with balancing that sense of what the calendar is doing with the fact that world events continue to unfold. They are important. There are so many people who don't get to just focus on the urgent and the delightful or for whom the urgent is so heavy and so serious and so frightening. And so we're just going to try here to hold both things at one time that the news will not stop even when we'd like it to. That there is something privileged and luxurious about that desire and that it is okay to feel what you feel. And we're going to make our way through with all of you. And we're so glad that you're here with us.  

Sarah [00:01:46] Now, if you are a member of our premium community. We do have one last matter that is both urgent and delightful, and that is the final live event of the year. It will be November 30th at 8 p.m. Eastern. You can find all the information about joining on Patreon if you subscribe there. If you subscribe through Apple Podcasts subscription, please make sure you are on our mailing list. Apple doesn't share your contact information with us, so we have a brief form for you to fill out to make sure you get information about events like this. There is a link in our show notes or you can email us at Hello@pantsuitpolitics.com. We won't spam you, we promise. We just use your email to get you the information about events like this. We can't wait to see you all Thursday night. It's going to be a blast. Next up, we're going to talk about OpenAI.  

[00:02:46] Music Interlude  

[00:02:46] Beth, have you heard the word of the year?  

Beth [00:02:48] No, according to whom? Is this like a Merriam-Webster...  

Sarah [00:02:51] Merriam-Webster. Yeah. The official one.  

Beth [00:02:51] Okay, great. No, I haven't. What is it?  

Sarah [00:02:54] It's authentic.  

Beth [00:02:57] It feels a little scoldy, Merriam-Webster. A little on the nose.  

Sarah [00:03:02] It's a little on the nose for what we want to talk about in the segment, because they referenced artificial intelligence, misinformation, this feeling of what is real, what is not, in picking this word for 2023. Authentic.  

Beth [00:03:18] Authentic. Not like we're trying to live our best lives. We're just trying to live our realest lives. Just the real ones right here.  

Sarah [00:03:25] Yeah.  

Beth [00:03:25] The verifiable lives.  

Sarah [00:03:27] I think that's right. And I thought it was very interesting coming off a very dramatic weekend over at OpenAI where they fired Sam Altman on Friday and rehired him by Sunday.  

Beth [00:03:41] Drama is the word of the year at open AI, I think. And I think it probably always has been. When you look at the founding of this company, you had a group of people who decided we're going to change the world, but we're going to do it right. We're going to do it exactly right. We're going to put all these guardrails around ourselves to make sure that we create artificial general intelligence, something that rivals or surpasses the human brain. But we're going to do it in a nonprofit because we cannot trust that ambition next to a profit motive. And what do you know? It got a little complicated.  

Sarah [00:04:19] Yes, because they figured out quickly we need more money than we can raise in a nonprofit model. So they sort of speckled this profit model onto the nonprofit model. So they were trying to do both at the same time, which inevitably came into conflict. The Daily did a good piece on how you just had these two competing visions, which was an optimistic model of AI and a more pessimistic model of AI. You have researchers and academics primarily making up OpenAI's original board. Then you have the profit guys come in. There's inevitable conflict. Look, we're learning more and more about the board's initial decision because they didn't say much. They just said we've lost trust in Sam Altman. We're learning more and more about what that meant. But, look, back to the word of the year, I realized while I was reading a lot of the reporting and thinking about Sam Altman, I don't trust him. I've never liked him. I don't find him to be authentic. When he speaks, my brain tells me not to listen. That's just my gut reaction to him. So reading the reporting where they were like, "We didn't trust him." He got kicked out of his other company for much the same reasons that are being reported. He got kicked out of this one, which was he was going off and starting other companies. So I kind of understand to a certain extent where they were coming from. But the reaction from the staff was, no, we trust him. We want him back. We will quit if he doesn't come back.  

Beth [00:05:48] I have many more questions about this situation than I have answers about it. I want to hover for a second on your point about that conflict between we're excited about AI and we're nervous about AI- the optimism and the pessimism. Because I think it's easy if you're taking in these stories from a distance to see that as two competing visions within the same organization. It feels more accurate the more I read to see those as two competing visions within almost all of the main characters in this organization. The board member, Ilya Sutskever, who was one of the founders of Open AI, was a very important employee there and who seems to be the person who kind of sparked this action from the board with a concern he had about the direction and the pace at which Sam Altman was pushing to launch new products; when you read a little bit about his background, he is such a believer in artificial general intelligence. He said Phil the AGI so often that it was almost a meme or is almost a meme within the company. So this guy is into what they're doing. At the same time, he wants to pump the brakes on what they're doing. I just think everybody there feels the drama of it all, that this is really big, that it's happening really fast. That they know more than anybody else does about how this stuff works. And this stuff surprises them on the reg. They can't believe how fast it's moving. And so when you have that kind of conflict nestled within an untested corporate structure or a corporate structure that in and of itself is designed in part to create friction, you can just see how you get to a mess like this.  

Sarah [00:07:39] Well, that's interesting that you read that he led it. I read that he was like the swing vote. So it seemed to me from reading it that Helen Toner, who's another academic, it was a tiny board. A tiny board made up of like three academics and a guy from Quora. And she had published a research paper that was very critical. Her and Sam Altman had a very tense email exchange about it. What struck me when I read this, I was like, "Oh, that's it. That's it right there." I think this was in the Wall Street Journal piece. She said, basically, if the board's mission was to ensure that the company creates artificial intelligence that "benefits all of humanity" and if the company was destroyed, she said, that could be consistent with the mission. And I thought, oh, there we go. There we go right there. If we got to blow it up to save humanity, I'm here to save humanity. Well, there are a lot of other people there, I think, that perhaps hold some of these ideas about humanity, but also stand to make a lot of money. I don't think the money can be ignored. You have this for profit model kind of added on. You have, like I said, this tiny board. You have this CEO who is everywhere. He's everywhere. He's on podcasts. He's at Congress. I don't believe anything he says anywhere he goes, but whatever. And so I thought that was so interesting. And it does seem to be that Microsoft hired Sam Altman in the in between small amount of time and said like, well, we'll just build it over here. We'll take all your employees-- or other competitors we're taking their employees. Did you read some of the reporting that Anthropic was competing for the employees and that had been a source of conflict for the board previously? Because I think somebody left and went and formed Anthropic because they were so concerned that the mission to save humanity had sort of been lost. And dream big, but I think so much of this shows just the limits. I don't care how big your technology is. Right now in 2023, there are a lot of human beings involved. And, to me, that's what comes across as you read about all this drama.  

Beth [00:09:40] So just to be really precise, it was a six member board because Sam Altman and Greg Brockman were also board members. But these four board members acted without Sam and Greg to make the decision that Sam would be fired and removed from the board, that Greg would be removed from his seat as chair of the board, but that they would like to keep him on with the company. 

Sarah [00:10:03] That's a coup.  

Beth [00:10:03] So just a real dramatic set of events leading to this firing, which then happened over like a Google meet. And, yes, I had read that part of that conflict around the Helen Toner research paper concerned her being complimentary of Anthropic efforts to prioritize safety and suggesting that Anthropic was doing a better job with safety than OpenAI. I don't know how I feel about Sam Altman. I think I mostly feel ambivalent about him. What I do know is that he's 38 years old. He has the backstory of a lot of Silicon Valley leaders, in that he went to college until he decided it no longer served him. He didn't finish. And he thought he could go off and make lots of money. And he does have money tied up in lots of different ventures. He had a very weird exchange when he testified in front of Congress with Senator Kennedy of Louisiana about how he just makes enough at OpenAI to pay for health insurance, but he doesn't have any equity and doesn't make a lot of money from that company. And I think that gets to the heart of some of these problems. Everybody has these big dreams both about what they're making and how they're going to make it in a new ethical way. I would never sign on to be a director of a company where I was told my fiduciary duty was to all of humanity. That doesn't mean anything. If my fiduciary duty is to everyone, then it is to no one. Everyone is going to have a different interpretation of what that means.  

Sarah [00:11:45] Well, it's not even a fiduciary duty because it's a nonprofit. So what? Your duty is just an ethical duty to all of humanity.  

Beth [00:11:51] I love the thought of saying we are not beholden to maximizing value for shareholders. I love experimenting with that. But that has got to mean something much more concrete than we're always going to keep the good of the human species at the forefront, for anybody to know what they really are obligated to do when they sit down in a board meeting.  

Sarah [00:12:16] Well, now we have a whole new board. Helen, Ilya, and Tasha are out. So the academics are pretty much out. And you have Brett Taylor, the former co-CEO of Salesforce Larry Summers, former Treasury secretary, president of Harvard University, and Adam D'Angelo, the co-CEO who negotiated Sam Altman's return. And they're going to expand the board. That's the part from sort of both sides I agree on. And I think Microsoft, who's a massive investor in OpenAI was pushing for, which is gaining more board members. That was too small of a board, but they had board members leaving. They couldn't agree on how to replace them. Who knew Will Hurd was on the board of OpenAI at one time? Not me. I didn't know that.  

Beth [00:12:55] That makes a lot of sense to me because of Bill Hurd's background.  

Sarah [00:12:58] And secretary Intelligence. Yeah.  

Beth [00:13:00] And in Congress, Will Hurd was pushing Congress to get on board, figure out that all this is coming. How are we going to deal with it? I wish he had stayed in Congress to try to continue that work. Seems we could use that expertise.  

Sarah [00:13:13] Wonder if he feels that way these days?  

Beth [00:13:15] I'm sure he does not. Since we have a historic number of people not running for office again already for next year, it seems like not the place anyone wants to be.  

Sarah [00:13:26] Well, we also thought this drama at OpenAI unfolded at an interesting moment where we had two big stories about misinformation and how they drove public reaction. We had an explosion at the Canadian border that sparked a lot of panic about a terrorism attack. And government officials coming out and saying, no, that's not the case. And then you had a really, really intense sequence of events in Ireland where there was an attack on a group of people and then sort of anti-immigrant misinformation spreading about this attack that led to very violent riots in Ireland. And so I think we're just continuing to see this sort of misinformation environment growing. And I think about this a lot, what are we going to do when we really can't trust anything we see? And I don't know if we will sort of go back to you have to see it on a news site and we'll sort of retrace our steps back to news sources. But that doesn't seem the direction people are going. It seems like more and more people are getting their news from TikTok.  

Beth [00:14:29] That's the direction I'm going because I don't trust what I see on social media anymore. The fakes of Taylor and Travis are too good for me to trust anything that I see, especially coming out of a really charged political situation. A thread for me between the Rainbow Bridge explosion, which looks like this couple in the Bentley were just driving so fast that they crashed and fuel and air mixed and it caused it to explode. That's the latest reporting that I've been able to read as we sat down to record today. But there's a thread there that suddenly became hysterics about terrorism at the northern border and whether these people were immigrants. And then, of course, in Ireland, you had this anti Algerian sentiment and the election in the Netherlands. A lot of places are capitalizing right now on we don't like each other, we can't trust each other. And certainly the conflict in Ukraine, the conflict between Israel and Hamas, all of that feeds the hunkering down, closed off, anyone who's an other is a danger to me. And TikTok is where that goes to become exponentially radicalizing for people. And I want no part of it. I want to know what's happening in the world. I don't want to turn away from anything. I am happy to have my own biases disrupted and my own narratives challenged. But I want that to come from places that have a lot on the line as they're telling me what's happening in the world.  

Sarah [00:16:11] Well, and they don't get it right every time either, but at least they correct it. At least they try. At least they say, okay, we are going to wait until we learn more. I think that's the problem. It's not just this sense of threat or it's that the sense of threat feeds this idea that I must know now. I must know exactly what happened right now. And that is almost never available to us, whether we're talking about OpenAI, we're just beginning to learn some of the issues there and what happened, to definitely immediate events like explosions or violence. But it's like people want all the answers immediately. And so if the news sources are being slow to provide information, they want people on the ground telling them what's happening. And, look, I felt it myself. And you get in that sense of I don't want to do anything else. I don't want to go about my life when this seems so scary. So I want to learn more because that gives me a sense of control and safety. But there's nothing more to learn. I've even been in those moments where I'm searching out other sources that I know aren't dependable just because I want to know more. I want to feel better. And I think the awareness of that instinct and the awareness of that emotion and sort of the cycle it kicks off is really, really important. Well, the world is full of delicate situations and violence around the globe, just like you just referenced. Up next, we're going to talk about the very fragile ceasefire currently taking place in Gaza.  

[00:17:49] Music Interlude  

[00:18:00] As we are recording, the current reporting is that Qatar has released information that Israel and Hamas have agreed to extend the current ceasefire for an additional two days. So as this episode comes out tomorrow, on Tuesday, we will be continuing a ceasefire with the exchange of hostages. I think as we're recording, Monday morning, there were 58 Israeli hostages that had been released and over 100 Palestinian prisoners who had been released in these exchanges. Over 208 trucks a day have been entering Gaza. I listened to reporting that said that the infrastructure is beginning to come back online. Maybe the individuals in Gaza are not feeling that impact quite yet. But sewer processing plants and places that are just essential to society are getting a lot of that aid upfront and hopefully that the people of Gaza will start to feel that soon.  

Beth [00:18:59] And know there is concern about famine and infectious disease. So those big picture infrastructure pieces are critical, as is maintaining this fragile truce so that it can continue. Because I heard reporting this morning that the level of aid flowing into Gaza right now needs to continue for months in order to create a safe place for all of the people who live there.  

Sarah [00:19:25] Well, I mean, there's complete decimation. I don't think there's any other way to describe what has happened. I thought the reporting from The New York Times on the type of bombs, the level of loss of human life far outpaces anything we've seen in even modern warfare. I mean, 2,000 pound bombs in densely populated urban areas is just game changing. That's the word we keep using after October 7th, is that everything is different now between these two players and in the region and in the world. I'm so encouraged by the Biden administration's working with Qatar to negotiate these exchanges. I just can't fathom the level of intensity, the level of organization, the level of detail when you're talking about who gets released, where they go, where does the aid flow? What does this mean? I think it's a testament to everyone involved that Hamas fired some missiles after the cease fire over the border and that it still continued, the agreement and the timeline that had been agreed upon went forward. That seems nothing short of miraculous to me.  

Beth [00:20:42] The whole thing seems miraculous to me, given how little trust exists between the parties here. Even as you zoom out beyond Israel and Hamas and include the United States, Egypt, Qatar, these are not countries that are hand in glove partners. And that so many people were able to keep this so secretive for weeks. That the Red Cross has been involved and managed to keep it secret for weeks. It's really amazing. And I know that it is in the face of everything that's happened not good enough that we wish for so much more here. But this is so much progress compared to my expectations for how progress could unfold, that I am holding my breath with like cautious optimism about what could be possible next.  

Sarah [00:21:42] I think when we consider the conversation around ceasefire, both things are true. That there was enormous movement happening behind the scenes that sort of confirmed the analysis we did on the show, which is we don't know. We could be working towards a ceasefire and we have no idea. And also I think the continued activism and protest and demands for a ceasefire mattered. I do think it mattered. I think it probably accelerated the pace or at least raised the stakes, sort of continue to focus on the solution. But I guess what I would say is I never thought that wasn't the focus, at least not for the Biden administration. I never for one moment thought that the number one motivation was to find a hostage exchange, a humanitarian pause, a ceasefire-- whatever you want to call it, or however you want to sort of put the pieces together-- that wasn't sort of the motivation. And so I agree with you. To be here at this moment in time and feel like we have made movement-- I'll just say movement. I am not even going to say which direction, just any movement at all feels really encouraging.  

Beth [00:23:01] The reporting that I've taken in suggests to me that the activism of Israelis to their own government saying we demand that you prioritize the return of these hostages mattered a lot because it was not a given that the Israeli government would prioritize the return of the hostages. And, in fact, I think that Netanyahu's government was disinclined to prioritize the safety and return of the hostages because it considered the elimination of Hamas to be its primary goal. And those things are in significant tension with each other, especially because of the density of the area.  

Sarah [00:23:43] Everything is different. And that includes the relationship between the Netanyahu government and the Israeli citizens and the relationship between the Netanyahu government and Hamas because there was a type of symbiotic relationship. There's a really great piece in The Washington Post about how Netanyahu didn't want a two state solution. He didn't want to see any sort of reconciliation between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. And so the breadcrumb approach, like a little bit of funding from Qatar, sure; some periodic prisoner releases, sure; to sort of ease the kettle and find this place of stasis. But what ludicrous leadership to believe that you were finding some place of stasis in this environment. That is a failure. It's like 75% of Israelis believe he should leave leadership, which I'm not Israeli, but I tend to agree with him. And I think the same is true of Hamas. Like it's a much more difficult situation because you're punished in Gaza if you criticize Hamas. I don't just mean like a slap on the wrist. I mean violent executions, if it's seen real repression of the people and free speech. So I think it's a harder thing to gauge. But this piece cites some citizens that are willing to speak out even sort of anonymously for the first time and say, like, they failed us. Like, yes, we wanted out from under this system of oppression and we weren't opposed to a body that presented a solution that involved violence or a military response. But this is cataclysmic. There's no life left here to be lived. So we're supposed to support the people who got us here that could have anticipated this rain down of violence. It's not like the Palestinian people who are criticizing Hamas right now are pro-Israel. But it's like this isn't going to work. I feel like that's just sort of the situation with both Hamas and Netanyahu. This isn't going to work. We're in a new land. We're in a new place. We're in a new era.  

Beth [00:25:42] It's not just that Hamas could have anticipated the response. They provoked it. This was the intention. And they prepared to keep their own members supplied and hidden and secure and left everyone else to bear the brunt of the military response from Israel. And I don't believe for a moment, even if they backed a military plan to deal with Israel, I don't believe that the average person in Gaza would say, please go kidnap four year olds in my name, please rape and murder women in my name. This is all so soul crushing. And I understand that there are just millions of stories behind how we got here, and that there will be millions of stories on our way through this. And that's why I try to be really careful in what I'm saying about all of it, because I don't want hate crimes in the United States against anyone-- jews, Muslims, anyone. I want to listen to the people on the ground there and believe, as you said, the best of my government. I want to believe that this administration has prioritized peace the whole way through. And maybe their plan to get there deviates from what my armchair assessment might be. But I just have to believe that they know more than I do and that they are working at it. And I'm so glad to see some fruit of that effort in the form of this truce that not only held despite Hamas firing those rockets, but was extended and seems to have the potential to continue to be extended. And I'm holding this with a lot of hope and prayer for the people who are most directly affected.  

Sarah [00:27:57] Well, and I just think you see that there's no purity on the way to peace. This is a very complicated negotiation that required compromises from everyone and a dedication to moving forward in the face of impossible heartbreak, impossible violence, impossible death and destruction and just the sense of this is where we are and this is where we're trying to go and we're going to stay focused on that. And I think that is easy to criticize, but I'm so thankful for the people who are a part of moving everyone towards the place we are now.  

[00:28:42]  Music Interlude 

[00:29:02]  But before Thanksgiving, the weekend before Thanksgiving, I went to New York City with my two beloved friends, Mike and Smith, who get mentioned a lot on this podcast. We've been friends since college. This was our first trip together, probably, I think maybe since like a spring break in college. I told them it was the best girls trip I've ever been on. We had a lot of listeners say though, "Oh, can you talk about that? Can you talk about friendships between men and women?" I mean, it is when Harry Met Sally season. The premise of that movie is that it's not a thing that men and women can be just friends. What's your stance on this?  

Beth [00:29:36] I think that men and women can absolutely be just friends and that it is really important that men and women be just friends. And my life would be much poorer if I believed that I couldn't have deep and meaningful relationships with men.  

Sarah [00:29:51] I totally agree. I mean, I'm only half kidding. This is one of the easiest and most fun weekends I've ever had on a friend's trip. I have a controversial take. Do you consider men a little bit easier to be friends with? I don't even know what I mean by the word easy, but I'm going to use it.  

Beth [00:30:10] I find the dynamics with men more straightforward than with other women.  

Sarah [00:30:15] That's it. That's the word I'm looking for. Straight forward. That's it.  

Beth [00:30:19] I don't think that it's necessarily easier because there are moments when only a close woman comforts me or can hear me or can understand me the way that I'm looking for. But I think there is a richness that's available through how straightforward things are with men that I need also.  

Sarah [00:30:39] Yeah.  

Beth [00:30:40] I don't want to pick one, right? I just want everyone to be out there on the table to be a good, loving friend.  

Sarah [00:30:45] That's true. But I do think there is a narrative that female friendship is the gold standard. And I do want to push gently on that standard because I don't think that's true.  

Beth [00:30:54] Yeah, I don't believe that.  

Sarah [00:30:56] I think female friendships can be difficult sometimes. You sent me a reel that was hilarious about a girls trip. It was like, "Do you want to go to Mexican? Well, you had Mexican last week. I don't want you to go to Mexican. Oh, but what about..." That doesn't happen with my male friends who are like, I don't want to do that. Am I going to do this thing by myself if you want to do that. I really appreciate that. I think, look, the other reality is men work on me all the time. I live in a house currently with four men. I'm in a very masculine place all the time. And so I think I'm just developing an appreciation for the emotional skills of men, because I think we have a narrative that men don't have emotional skills, and I don't think that's true. Different, not less. In one of the uses of one of my favorite phrases.  

Beth [00:31:35] I think it is different because I worked in such a masculine environment for so long, I had to have friendships with men or I would not have had many friends. The women who were my friends in that environment were extremely dear to me and so important, and I would not have made it without the women who were my friends in that environment. At the same time, it was a good place to learn how to befriend men of all ages. And that's what I really miss. In some ways, I don't miss a lot about working in a law firm, but I did enjoy having friendships, genuine friendships with men in a lot of different places in their lives, and kind of thinking about all the directions life can take and what men prioritize in their careers and how they navigate the places where their career comes in tension with their family. And it's been hard to maintain those relationships now that I'm not there anymore. I think that's another struggle. I think women are generally a little bit better if you decide you want to maintain a relationship at doing that.  

Sarah [00:32:47] Absolutely. Absolutely.  

Beth [00:32:49] Men, I think, are easier to be friends with when you're in proximity with one another. And I think that's something that's really beautiful about your relationship with Mike and Smith. That could have gone by the wayside because you're all in different places, but that you've held on to it is pretty extraordinary.  

Sarah [00:33:03] Yeah. I did a little look back over our friendship in anticipation of this trip, I had a little 30 day email countdown with some old videos and pictures and all kinds of stuff. A lot of times it was me. I basically plucked them their freshman year and said, "We will be friends. Adjust accordingly."  

Beth [00:33:21] Which is your M.O. Like that's just how you work.  

Sarah [00:33:24] I was about to say, I stayed at Elizabeth Passarella's house in New York City, this is also what happened to her. I read her book, I said, "Me and this woman should be friends." And so I made it happen. And so, yes, that is a thing I do. When I left school because I'm two years older than them, they came and visited me a couple times. And then I think there was a few years where we didn't talk that much and I thought, I don't like this. I'm not in favor of this. And so I said, "We're going to be in a book club. We're going to read books and we're going to have face times together and we're going to talk about it." And I was the one pushing for this trip. They both turned 40 and I said, "We're going to go somewhere. We're going to go somewhere and celebrate y'all's 40th birthday." And it was just soul healing. We had such a good time. We laughed our asses off. We ate our way through New York City. It was just the best possible sort of refreshing visit with friends. I do think that's true, that women do a lot of the emotional work. But sometimes I think that's like we tell ourselves we should and some of those friendships could fade away. There's a cultural narrative there, gender narrative that women are the best type of friends. They maintain the friendships, they're loyal, all that kind of thing too.  

Beth [00:34:30] Yeah, I think that women often proceed in our relationships with such awareness of how much is on our plates that we don't want to ask anything of our women friends.  

Sarah [00:34:42] Yeah, that's so true.  

Beth [00:34:45] And it's easier to ask things of your men friends.  

Sarah [00:34:49] Yes.  

Beth [00:34:50] Because, one, you know that they probably are not managing maybe all the things that you're managing just emotionally already. But, two, you also trust that they'll just say no if they're not available, if they don't have the bandwidth for it. And so I feel like if we could just trust other women to just say no if they don't have the bandwidth, and then we could trust ourselves to ask for what we need in those friendships, that we could have that kind of closeness with women that felt a little easier and a little lighter.  

Sarah [00:35:23] Yeah, I guess that's it. I think there's some balance to be found both sides. I think women could learn things from men and men could learn things from women when it comes to friendships. And I think that's why the female male friendships are so valuable because you kinda like get to glimpse the other side. You know what I mean? Like you got to get to see like, oh, this part is better and this part is easier in either spaces. And I think that balance is really, really beautiful. And especially for me as a mother of boys, when I'm around Mike and Smith, I just think like, oh, this is the vision. It makes me tear up. This is the version of masculinity I want for my boys. I always laugh like I was going to send their mothers letters when I had my first son and say like, "Just tell me what you did. Just laid out for me real straight forward." But being friends with them for 20 years, I know what makes them so special. I know that they have balance between the two of them. They're like the odd couple, like Felix and Oscar. There's like a real kind of straight man, wild guy dynamic going on there. But I'm just so grateful. I'm so grateful for what they brought to my life over the past 20 years. I'm grateful that I got to spend time with them. I'm grateful for all my friendships. I know Thanksgiving is a time to be with family, but I think it also just brings in such sharp, beautiful relief. I know you had a Friendsgiving of what our friends bring to our lives.  

Beth [00:36:43] Well, that's really where I wanted to go in talking to you about this conversation, because there are like a lot of layers here. The biggest one to me that is the hardest is just that you prioritize this time, that you prioritize the time and the expense of a trip. I haven't thought in years about whether men and women can actually be friends without some kind of like, sexual tension, because that just seems so outrageous and dumb to me.  

Sarah [00:37:09] Yeah, that's wild.  

Beth [00:37:11] I do think that there are many, many, many people who would say, "I don't know that it's okay for me to take the time away from my family." Or to make this spend of money on something that doesn't involve my family. Like leisure is so precious in terms of resources that to prioritize any friends, but especially friends of the opposite sex, I think that would trip people up.  

Sarah [00:37:41] Yeah. I got a lot of side eye from my family members who were like you're going where, with who, for how long?  

Beth [00:37:46] Yeah.  

Sarah [00:37:47] And much shout out to my husband who didn't bat an eye. Absolutely. He loves them too. They have also been in his life for 20 years. He gets occasionally invited to our book club. So that's part of it, too. And so the funny part is 20 year old Sarah when Nicholas went away to law school and I was still a [inaudible] he was like, "You may not be friends with women." I was very jealous. I had a very cheaty previous boyfriend. And so I was super aware. And so I was like, don't make friends with women. And meanwhile I'm like, "Here are my two new friends. These two freshmen guys." And Nicholas was like, "What? Sorry, huh?" But he's never been a jealous type, and that's probably why that friendship was allowed to flourish. And I'm grateful for Mike and Smith's partners who were like, "Yeah, for sure, go have fun." And I think that that's it. There's got to be so much trust. And I think in my life, first of all, my mom does that. My mom is a really great example to me. My mom and my grandmother are both friends, visit, go on trips frequently with friends from high school, friends from college into they're like 60, 70, 80s. So I've always seen that example of like, this is where you spend time, you spend some of your time prioritizing friends. And my mom goes on so many trips with all her girlfriends and same with my grandmother. So I kind of saw that example a lot growing up of like, well, this is a normal thing to do. You spend some of your vacation and your money and your time going to hang out with your friends. This is like a really important part of maintaining those friendships and loving those people and having them in your life. So I think that's part of it, as I just saw that example my whole life growing up and so I didn't know any different. So my college girlfriends and I went on trips, still do. I had A vacation with my best friend from college. Anywhere we go around the country, I'm like, who's nearby? I'mma scoop them up while I'm there because I just find friendships so life giving.  

Beth [00:39:31] I think that calculus that a lot of women do-- and I know we're talking in like broad, heteronormative- admitted. Admitted that we are two 42-year-old women married to men with kids. Not to leave anyone out of the conversation, I just want to acknowledge that that's what my pronouns are and so forth go. But that calculus that we do of like, well, she's probably too busy, just deprives us of so much. I know so many women who will occasionally text me and be like, I'm sorry to bother you. I'm like, you don't bother me. It's a text message. I want a text message. I want to hear from my people all day. I love a group text. And I feel totally capable of managing when I respond to that. No one's interrupting me or bugging me. And I trust my friends who I text to do the same. I think that we just have to adopt that posture, that friendship matters. It's important that everybody wants it, that you're not the one who's chasing somebody else. They want that friendship too. And the older I get and the more I see my girls developing their own lives, the more important my friends become to me. Because I think there's going to be a time-- December looks exhausting to me right now because we have so many kids activities. But that window will come to an end and I'll be looking for what are we going to do next weekend? And I want to have lots of people that I look forward to spending that time with. I was with my friend Jen. We snuck out on the day that I was hosting Thanksgiving to hit the bath and body work sound. It was very fun.  

Sarah [00:41:18] What year is it?  

Sarah [00:41:20] And in the car she mentioned some things to me next year and said, "Now just just think about this and think about whether you guys might want to go." And I said, "I don't have to think about it. Of course, I want to go. Absolutely I want to go. I want to go and do all the things. I want to make all of the memories with you guys because you're so special to me. And this time of life when we're able to do this because our kids are getting older is so special to me." And honestly, I wish I could go back to the version of me that was nursing a baby and trying to answer work email with the other hand and say, "You need more friends. This time will be easier for you if you will allow yourself to have more friends coming at you in different directions." It's so important.  

Sarah [00:42:03] Well, and I think the other really key piece of this is the friendships I have maintained that are like a piece of my soul are because I asked things of those friends. I didn't just give. I didn't just worry about what I was taking. I'm an asker. If I want something, I'll ask for it. I think about that Ezra Klein interview he did on debt, sex, and money where he said, "You can't just say, I'll watch your kids. If you want to build that type of community with other families, especially when you have little kids, it has to be can you watch my kids?" And I think that the friendships that haven't sustained themselves it's because I think I asked and they weren't there, and I thought, okay, well, then that's not going to work. This is not going to last. Not because I'm like a demanding friend. I don't think I'm a demanding friend, but I am… I don’t have the right word for it. Whatever is like 40% less of demanding. You know what I mean? I want something in return. And I think you can't give people the chance to form that connection if you never ask anything of them. And I don't mean constant favors, but this sense of like, I want to see you in person. Let's show up for each other. That's important to me. I think of my best friend, Laura, from law school. She came to my 30th birthday in Paducah, Kentucky. When I go to my friend's town and I say I want to see you, and they show up, that matters. I think that stuff adds up. But you have to ask. You have to ask.  

Beth [00:43:27] Well, I think what you really understand is that you can't have any trust without mutuality.  

Sarah [00:43:33] Yeah.  

Beth [00:43:33] And you can't have mutuality until someone makes the first move to show that it's here. I had such a great moment on the Thanksgiving that I hosted with my friends. My friend Brian's sister, brother-in-law and baby came into town that night and they were just going to stop in at dinner on their way in. And he said, "Just come to Beth's house. There'll be plenty of food." And I was so thrilled. And I was so thrilled that when they came in, I was like, "What would you like to drink?" And then Brian sister-in-law was like, "Glass of wine." I didn't have a bottle of wine out or open, but I was like, "Yes, I would be delighted to find a bottle of wine and get that to you." I was just glad that they came in and ask for what they wanted but would make it a nice time. And then Brian was in my kitchen doing dishes and I said, "You don't have to do this." And he said, "I would feel less like family if I weren't doing dishes with you right now." And I just thought like, this is what I want. I just was walking on air about how all that unfolded because it said to me we're not afraid to ask things of each other. And it doesn't feel like much of an ask because this relationship is so important.  

Sarah [00:44:37] Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think that mutuality, that's the perfect word for it. The sense of I will say what I need, you will say what you need and we will try to find a path forward together, that has to be an essential component of it. And I think that's what we were getting at with our How to Enjoy Your People episode too. That sense of mutuality and connection.  

Beth [00:44:57] And I just think assuming the whole way through-- maybe this is like a personality factor for me, but assuming the whole way through that you take as much joy in me as I take in you, that has been essential for me. I'm not a bother. You like me too. And you want to hang out with me too. And you want my text message just like I want yours.  

Sarah [00:45:17] Yeah. No, I totally agree. What a gift these people are in our lives. I'm so grateful for every single one of my friends, but particularly for Mike and Smith coming off of our fabulous weekend in New York City. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. We hope we'll see all of you premium members on Thursday night for our final live event of the year. If you aren't able to join us live, don't worry, you'll be able to view the recording of the event any time through the same link. We will be back in your ears on Friday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

[00:45:47] Music Interlude  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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