A Guide to Enjoying Your People

TOPICS DISCUSSED

We know the holidays can be a tough time, particularly when you are entering into gatherings with people who stress you out. We’re devoting the entire show today to real strategies and conversation about how to not just get through these gatherings, but enjoy them.

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude  

Sarah [00:00:33] Welcome to Pantsuit Politics. We are so grateful that you have joined us today. So much of our work has been built around having better conversations with our people. How do we stay in relationship with people when we disagree on political or spiritual or moral issues? We've written two books about those questions. I Think You're Wrong (But I'm Listening). And Now What?  

Beth [00:00:53] So whether you have been with us for a long time or this is your first episode, we can imagine with the Thanksgiving holiday approaching, if you celebrate it here in the United States, you might feel a sense of dread as you consider gathering with your people for the holidays. This time of year can be very hard if you have any kind of conflict, including conflict about news and politics with your family and friends. Maybe you can't even make it through a board game without someone losing it. Maybe there are struggles over personal boundaries, whether your issues are big or small. They can lead to many of us losing the joy and peace that we're supposed to be here for around the holidays.  

Sarah [00:01:32] Today we want to devote a whole episode to practical solutions and strategies for those gatherings. We don't just want you to grit your teeth and get through it. We want to help you find actual enjoyment in your people this year. We've solicited suggestions from our community. Some of you are pros at enjoying your people and it shows. We will be sharing those as well as some thoughts of our own to help you make the most of this holiday season.  

Beth [00:01:57] Even if you are blessed to have no struggles with your family and friends, even if you really enjoy your people on a regular basis, we think you'll find some fun new ideas in this episode. And we want everyone to know that enjoying your people is one of the biggest political contributions that we can make to our society.  

Sarah [00:02:33] Beth, as we were preparing for this episode, I was reading the newest issue of Real Simple magazine. There was an article on gratitude. And I read this sentence and I thought, that's it. That's my guiding light. It hit me like a bolt of lightning. It's from Melissa Shepherd, a psychiatrist in Prince Frederick, Maryland. She says, "I tell people to think of gratitude less as an emotion and more as a behavior." And I thought that's the whole kit and caboodle. That is applicable to not only gratitude. It is applicable to how to enjoy your people during a time of year, in fact, built around gratitude. I thought it was such a good and succinct way to sort of divide up these two issues we're dealing with when we gather with our people. Which are emotions and behaviors, things we can't control, things we cannot always control.  

Beth [00:03:30] It reminds me of something that Patti Digh says often, which is that love is a verb. And I think that hits on that distinction between the feeling that I might have. Because when you get in a room with your people, there are a lot of feelings and those feelings are valid. And those feelings are also often unconnected to the present moment. Brett Castillo has this phrase that our brains are like toddlers with knives. They don't intend to hurt us, but they absolutely will. I think when we let those emotions drive the bus in our behaviors, that's where everything goes awry. So if we can kind of set up the holidays with our people as about our behaviors and centering our intentions around our behaviors, I do think that's very helpful.  

Sarah [00:04:14] Yeah, because what I always say about emotions are they are relevant, but they are not always reality. I mean, I know in my own life-- it makes me tear up a little bit. I'm so hard on the people I love the most. And I was thinking about when we got ready to do this episode, why is that? Why are we so hard on each other when these are the people that we have spent so much time bonding with, that we have been through so many difficult things with. And I guess just as the stakes get higher, the stakes get higher, that there is so much complexity tied up with people you've lived a lot of life with. There's been a lot of hurt feelings over the years. There's been a lot of mistakes made over the years. And I'm not saying you can illuminate all of that before you gather around a big turkey. But I do think as much as you can excavate in your own emotions and thinking, why am I going? Because if you are going to a family gathering because you think that is what is expected of you, that that's just what people do, right? They show up at the family gathering, that's your responsibility or out of a sense of duty. Not that I don't think there can be duty and responsibility in life, but I think if you are attending a family gathering with the intention of feeling resentful and not wanting to be there as opposed to having the intention of enjoying your people, then you're working at a deficit from the word go and you can't control why everyone else is attending, but you can control why you are attending.  

Beth [00:05:46] And even when you do that, and even when you have great relationships with your family-- I do. My family is very uncomplicated. It's small. We enjoy each other. There are no long simmering tensions among us. It is still kind of hard for me to go home. I'm usually driving southwest and I hit my hometown, and just a lot of things kind of flood my brain as soon as I get back in that space. Things that have nothing to do with my parents or how they handle things, or my sister, who was a baby during most of this stuff. But it's like my brain does a search for the hardest things that I've ever experienced in my life or the things that I've handled the worst. Like, where can we find all of Beth's guilt and shame? And it just all comes flooding back. And so I walk through the threshold of my parents house carrying a fresh, low light reel of the time that I lived there. And I've tried to be really intentional about telling myself that's what's going on because it is not fair of me to bring that to them. It's more fair, as I gather with them, to think about how these are the moments that I have with my parents. These are the moments that I have with my sister. None of us live near each other. So how can this be about now, not about everything that that got us here? And that's a lot easier for me because all of that stuff that's sitting in me isn't really connected to them. If you have estrangement or deep pain in your family, it's a big ask. And so I think saying, "Okay, I've decided to go, why am I going and how can I have a really wonderful or at least a net positive experience?" Is the right frame of mind.  

Sarah [00:07:41] Well, and this is where I think pop culture does us a disservice. Often I'm on the side of pop culture helps us process things, but I think the expectations around the holidays set in movies-- even when the movies and TV shows build in the conflict. Even let's say like the Family Stone, which we all love, and there's a lot of complexity in that story, there are some partner swapping. Obviously, this movie is containing a lot of family drama, but there's still a quick edit and there's still a mostly neat and tidy resolution. And you don't get that in real life. And so I worry that there's expectations around what a family gathering should look like that are just unachievable because you have everybody bringing all those experiences and those flood of emotions and whatever's in their body to the table. There's a really beautiful reel going around. Have you seen it where it's like, "Remember, this is your mother's first trip through life as well." Have you seen that?  

Beth [00:08:36] No, but I love that.  

Sarah [00:08:37] It made me cry because it is hard to remember that everybody's- this is their first trip through. This is their first trip through. I think with our families it can become this real, real attribution error that we're doing our best and that we're dealing with all this stuff and they're acting like jerks. And I think that holding that, remembering that, passing out grace like candy as you're processing your own emotions, and remembering that some people are or some people aren't and don't have any capacity to process this, is really important.  

Beth [00:09:11] A mantra that I've kind of been working with for a couple of months is just because I'm hurt doesn't mean I've been wronged. And I think that's important to kind of bring into these situations too. It also helps me give grace to myself because it's true that I hurt people's feelings and sometimes I wrong them, but sometimes their feelings are just hurt and I haven't wronged them. And being able to hold the space between those two things has been really valuable to me.  

Sarah [00:09:38] Because let me say at the onset of this, in a time of epic loneliness I do think families are important. It's not even that I think families are important. I think families are cellular in a way that is hard to contemplate. I think that we try to put structures and frameworks and analysis around families, but I think there is something evolutionary happening. We live in this structure where your tribe was your tribe and your safety was wrapped up in how these people felt about you. And I don't think that's something you just flip off because you live in a modern age where you can move across the world and sort of disengage. I just think that there's something very visceral that happens both good and bad with our families. And so I think in places where we really can center the importance of that connection and try to find, like you said, a net positive, it would really be good for us as a collective species. I do believe that.  

Beth [00:10:47] And that said, there are people for whom that's unavailable or unhealthy. And we don't want to ever be dismissive of an experience where you are just going to have to create your own family because the one that you were born into is not the place for you. And that's harder. That's tough.  

Sarah [00:11:05] That's the thing, though, acknowledging the visceral nature of that is actually to me giving real space and acknowledgment for how hard that is. That is not something that can be solved or healed with a neat and tidy bow either, because that's the nature of family, is that wherever it is on the good or bad spectrum, it is intensely impactful to all of us as individuals. And so that's why we think it's worth putting in some of this work to illuminate our emotions, to try to structure some foundational strategies around the behavior itself. So we think it's worth it. We could do some journaling. We could do some meditating, lots of ways to really excavate our own emotions and feelings. A therapist always a good idea. That's what I did with my therapist this week, Beth. To really think through all of this. And then as we listen to all of you and your advice, thought there was some really good direction around that emotional pre-planning with the family itself, which just involves so much communication. When you think I've communicated as much as I can, just do like 30% more and then you might be close.  

Beth [00:12:20] I think that's right. I also think this is a moment to do something that is the opposite of my natural instinct. So my natural instinct is to be the obnoxious person who, when you say, "What do you want for dinner?" I say, "Whatever. I'm fine with anything." When do you want to go? "Oh, whatever's convenient for you. I'll make it work." Like, this is not the moment for that. This is the moment for saying, "Here are the things that would make this a fun time for me because it is a holiday and I want to have a fun time." If I am lucky enough to not be working on this day, to have several days maybe to be off work, spending time with folks, I want to enjoy that time. So I need to take responsibility for saying, for example, it is important to me that our Thanksgiving meal be hot and beautiful and delicious. I'm sorry, it just is.  

Sarah [00:13:13] Hot is also important to me.  

Beth [00:13:15] I grew up going to Thanksgiving where the food was not hot. The environment was not lovely. And the net result was not delicious and it was not okay with me. And so as an adult, I just have to be honest. I want to mostly be in control of this meal, and I want it to be really nice.  

Sarah [00:13:34] I think that that's valid. I live my life very differently. Eye early and often, as the phrase goes, articulate my needs and boundaries. I loathe certain gatherings, for example, girls trips where there is that sort of constant, "Oh no, but what do you want to do?" I don't like that and I don't think it works. That's why I don't like it. I don't like it because I think it's like a character flaw or the people that are doing it are bad people. I don't like it because I don't think it works because almost always people have expectations and desires. Not almost always-- always. And so with our family gathering this year, I said, "Why don't we ask what is essential to you?" Like what makes Thanksgiving?" For me, that is an easy answer. I must watch the parade. I must watch the entirety of the parade. It is very important to me. Other people want to watch the dog show. Other people have to have pumpkin pie. Some people have to have turkey. Some people don't care about the turkey. But I think as much as you can get in front of what's really important to you-- and I think sometimes that gets hard. So I think around Christmas, some people, gift giving is really important and some people hate it, right? And that's where you get into the more difficult, I think, mismatched expectations. Because it's one thing if some person the turkey is important to them and they'll take responsibility for it. And it's one thing if one person really wants the dog show. Like, those are easy to me. I think it gets harder when you have expectations that are in conflict with each other.  

Beth [00:15:10] And they frequently are.  

Sarah [00:15:12] Inevitably. I would even say inevitably. Would you say inevitably?  

Beth [00:15:15]  I would say inevitably. Even things like if I really want to play cards, but somebody else really wants to watch the football game. If we all sit in the space of like, well, we're together, so we have to do all the things together, that is going to be a problem. I feel like part of the emotional pre-planning, if you're going to do it well, is to say to everybody, "This is going to be a judgment free question. What's really important to you? What would be day ruining for you?" 

Sarah [00:15:43] Day ruining. That's a good one. I like that one.  

Beth [00:15:44]  If you can't enjoy this day without seeing the parade, I don't need to judge whether the parade is important or not. I don't need to like the parade. I don't even need to watch it with you. I'll just try to make sure that you have an opportunity to watch the parade, and I will do that without analyzing your choice.  

Sarah [00:16:03] We did a little brainstorming you and I, and we thought we could do sort of a red flag, green flag, so we could put these two things together. What makes the holiday for you and what are you most anxious about? Now, I am worried about communicating that in some sort of group setting. So we're like, what if you did the gift exchange only that's also your green flag, red flag person. So you draw names and you're like, this is the person you get to share what's most important to you and what you're anxious about. Or maybe I think the sharing the green flags together is fine. It's just the red flags I think can become an intense environment if we're sharing all those in some sort of group email. But I do think even if you're articulating them to your person, like to your spouse or to whatever, your best friend, the sibling you're closest to, the parent you're closest to, I just think you have to clearly articulate "I just want to feel heard. I am not asking you to solve this for me." I just want to say this is what I'm anxious about and it makes me feel better to know that you've heard me, not that you're going to fix it. I think that's where we get in trouble as people feel responsibility to fix those red flags instead of just to witness them.  

Beth [00:17:09] I definitely feel that responsibility to fix red flags, but I mostly feel that when I am a host. Because I do think as a host, even for a family gathering, you have a certain responsibility to everybody. Not to wow them with your Pinterest worthy spread or decor or luxurious home, but to take charge of the gathering.  

Sarah [00:17:30] Yes.  

Beth [00:17:31] And I think as a host, knowing Sarah wants to watch the parade. So I have set up this space for anyone who wants to join Sarah as she watches the parade. There's a bowl of snacks in there. There's a nice TV. I hope everybody really enjoys it. If you're not interested in the parade, this TV is yours. I put some board games next to it. I will be in the kitchen preparing things. If you'd like to help me, I can give you a job. And I'm not going to be mad about anyone's choices. But as the host, I do think it's my job to look at what's important to you and where I can help you navigate those tough things so you can have a good time.  

Sarah [00:18:10] Well, and I think we've talked about since we wrote our second book is the status. I think the status of being the host, the status of being a parent, the status of maybe being the new parent in the group, I think that comes into play too. So I think as much as you can illuminate beforehand where there might be some shifting status within the family. So if we're in a new place, if we're in a new house, what does that mean? Is one person going to want to try to keep the status? To me, it's so paradoxical. It is both true that the status is a reality and it also stinks because we should be a family and it should be like the bond between us should be enough status. But I think we all feel insecure, especially when we're not like we used to be, right? Where we're not all living on top of each other in a village, but we're spread out. Maybe that's why there's so much insecurity around the status we hold inside the family. And there's so much simmering resentment because we're working them out or have a tendency to try to work them out during these times.  

Beth [00:19:11] Well, I think the more we can hold everybody's preferences loosely, the more it helps people who have a different status inside the family. Like I think it's just very hard to be related through marriage and show up at a big gathering.  

Sarah [00:19:26] Yeah.  

Beth [00:19:27]  Even if you really like everybody and get along fine and there are no problems. I think especially on a holiday, you sit in the house, you watch the family interact and you can just feel that you are still the plus one. However many years it's been, you're still the plus one. It's still not quite where you belong. It still doesn't quite meet you in that visceral place of connection. And so if we can get to Sarah wants to watch the parade and that's fine, I think that those kinds of accommodations that kind of care for everyone and that sort of relaxation around we don't all have to have exactly the same day together, really helps the people who are not related to the core family.  

Sarah [00:20:17] Yeah, I think that that's definitely an aspect of the status that is always at play. And there's just again, a million different layers, especially when you add in children or there's an aspect of divorce or remarriage. I mean, there's just so many multiple layers. And so, I don't think the goal is to illuminate every single aspect of that. But I think the goal is to illuminate and excavate enough of your own emotional traps and emotional opportunities. This does not all have to be negative framing that you've sort of exercised that muscle enough that you can do it in the moment too.  

Beth [00:20:55] Yes. And I would just kind of wrap this up for myself. This is just a reminder to me that the one emotion of mine that I really am like 100% responsible for is resentment. If I wind up resentful in a situation, that is on me. There's something I didn't communicate. There's something I didn't do. And so if we can all go into Thanksgiving and just have the goal that we're not going to leave resentful, I think that's a big win.  

Sarah [00:21:22] Yes. I think I have an idea about mantra, but I feel like we're drifting into our behavior. So we're talking about some behavioral structures up next.  

[00:21:31] Music Interlude  

[00:21:47] What if you had a mantra either internally with your partner or-- I think it could be fun if it was you'd have to fill out the vibe of your family, you know what I mean? But if you could find like a meme or a joke or a mantra or something fun to say if it gets tense, like a safe word. Just to say, like, remember, we are here because we love each other. Love is all we need. Love actually is all around us. You could reference a movie that most people don't take very seriously anymore. Don't DM me. I think something like that could be fun. Just a little touch point. I can even envision a candle you would light in a jokey manner. I'm lighting the candle of peace right now. I think it depends right on your family, but I think there could be some fun little like guidepost.  

Beth [00:22:36] I will give you an example of this working really well for me recently. I took my mom shopping. My mom is a wonderful, wonderful person and a beautiful person, and she sees herself very critically. She sees her physical body very critically. So before we went shopping, I said to her--  

Sarah [00:22:53] Have you suggested Naked Attraction?  

Beth [00:22:55] I have not. But I said to her before we went shopping, "Mom, I have one request for the day tomorrow. Let's just only be neutral or positive about our bodies." Just neutral or positive for the whole day. And she kind of laughed because I said it lightheartedly. I just think that this could be a really fun day. And I don't want you to, like, experience yourself in that negative way. So we go the next day and she picks up something and she says, "Well, I don't know about this because my..." And I put my hand up like a stop sign and said, "Because you don't prefer this cut? I think that's fine. Let's put it back. Let's move on." And every time that old pattern started to creep back up, I just kind of zoomed in and I made it a little over-the-top therapy speech.  

Sarah [00:23:43] Yeah.  

Beth [00:23:43] Because it was funny and it kept us lighthearted. And we did have probably the best time I've had shopping with my mom because it just kept us in a better place. So I think if you can figure out whatever that thing is for your family gathering and then be funny about enforcing it, that's a really good practice.  

Sarah [00:24:00] I mean, listen, it's like Steel Magnolias where she's like, "Here, hit Weezer." You know what I mean? It's that moment that's just like, here's the person. I don't think they should be a literal punching bag, but I think that that's a good moment where you're just like, okay, here, hit her. You know, like just that break. That's why that movie is brilliant. I do like the new meme that's like, this is my Roman Empire. That probably should have been my answer. Because I do think humor works really, really well. It works really, really well. And I think a lightheartedness that keeps everybody centered on why you're there. We're there to enjoy our holidays, to enjoy our time both together and separately and to leave hopefully more connected than we came.  

Beth [00:24:42] We did hear from people that activities are a meaningful component of enjoying this time.  

Sarah [00:24:48] I think this is very correct. I think the people who said when you're doing that emotional excavates, the behavior component of this is where are the traps? Where are we going to see some time in the schedule that leads to tension and conflict? One listener identified that at the evening when people are bored and there is alcohol present, that can sometimes be a bit of quicksand. I think that's accurate and a very, very smart observation.  

Beth [00:25:23] Multiple wings of my family have a habit when we're all together of just sitting in a circle and chatting. And I love all of them. And I think the intention behind that is beautiful. And I think it's mostly better for everybody to stay busy. This is why I love to play cards, because you are connected. You're in it together, you're having fun, but there's a little something else to just stay focused around. And I think that little something else is key. So we heard that from you all. Board games, puzzles, a station to do nails, bowling came up quite a bit.  

Sarah [00:25:57] People love bowling.  

Beth [00:25:58] People love to bowl.  

Sarah [00:26:00] We love Jackbox games in my family. If you have not played Jackbox games, it's a really, really fun software. So I do think there's a membership fee, but you pay and then everybody watches the game on the TV, but you play along on your phone, so you get to enter quickly and answer. And they're very creative, very funny games and there's tons to choose from. Left Right Center came up a lot. But I think the key is the structured activities inside a schedule. I really like somebody said you should have a plan for breakfast and dinner. The middle of the day everybody gets to decompress and find their own self-care routines which we're going to get into in a second. But I think that idea of having that bracket not because everything is absolutely required, but that there is a schedule you can opt into that's available to everyone.  

Beth [00:26:49] We did hear a lot about caring for yourself. Now, this is something that probably will not come up for my holiday because I'm never with my family very long. So if it's just an overnight or something, I do not feel the need to like have some good alone time. If I were on a three or 4 or 5 day venture with people, yes, I would very much need to build in time. So people talked about like, I just need to go for a run every morning or I just need to get in a few minutes of yoga or meditation. Sarah and I had a brilliant idea, I think, while we are preparing for this episode. Again, if you're a host and you want to take some responsibility for this, what a nice thing if you could designate a quiet area of the house. Like a quiet room, so you can say to people, "This is the space if you just want to go read your book, you want to take a nap, you want to listen to your podcast on your phone, whatever it is that you need to do. If you want to go somewhere and still be here with all of us, but have some time when you're not on, here's your space to do that."  

Sarah [00:27:52] Because I do think as Americans, we overemphasize the need to be talking. I think in other parts of the world, they are more comfortable being together instead of talking constantly. Listen, I got most talkative in high school and I don't have a lot of room to talk here. See what I did there. But I do think that can be really nice. It can be really nice to just be together, but not feel like you have to be moving everything forward constantly.  

Beth [00:28:23] I think we very much underrate just being around each other. You see it in kids. Before they start to really communicate well, when two little bitty kids are just playing around each other there is something so awesome about the energy that creates. And I would like us to have space as adults to create that kind of energy.  

Sarah [00:28:45] Yeah. Playing side by side, if you will, is very important. We also like the idea of having a structured time to share maybe what you've done that day. So maybe everything wasn't required everybody had to do something together. Maybe some people went bowling, maybe some people went to a movie. Maybe some people enjoyed the quiet room. I think all the time about Gabrielle Blair had this post. It was years ago. It was when all her kids were still in her house, about how instead of watching TV together, they would come and basically sit together on the Internet and share what they found. Like I found this meme, this is what really connected to me. Instead of like a group text, it was together in the room. And I thought that's really clever. I thought there was some kind of space for that inside a holiday gathering where we're just sharing. It's like a structured share. I think that's a good thing. I like this trend in book clubs too, where we're not reading the same book, we're just reading together then sharing what we've read.  

Beth [00:29:37] And if you struggle with how to do that, I think High Low Buffalo is your format. I think that's your way in. The best thing, the worst thing, the thing that was funny or surprising or weird. It's just easy, people get it quickly, and it makes for a happy, structured sharing time.  

Sarah [00:29:54] Yeah. I love a High Low Buffalo. We do it here at my house, and every time we invite someone else into the High Low Buffalo people really love it and they see the appeal. It's just processing. It's processing your day together. There's something very connecting about processing hard things together. That's what we do here at Pantsuit Politics. Not to brag.  

Beth [00:30:10] You can do it with a lighter touch than we typically have here at Pantsuit Politics. High Low Buffalo is ideal for that too. Just a little sharing.  

Sarah [00:30:18] It's true. Now, everything does not have to be a group activity. We've already touched that. That includes your built in emotional support. We do think a buddy system is good. One person wrote us that they have a bingo card with their spouse so that when these difficult moments pop up, they're like, well, at least I got a square on my bingo card. My warning here is that you don't want it to turn into a bitch fest. I think there's a fine line between finding support and feeding that sense of snark and sarcasm.  

Beth [00:30:53] I think a way to potentially avoid that is to make your buddy not your spouse.  

Sarah [00:31:02] Okay. Tell us more.  

Beth [00:31:04] Well, if you know that you're both going in with some things that are going to make you sort of cringe or roll your eyes or genuinely hurt your feelings or really upset you, whatever it is, and this is your person for all things. So you go in kind of on the same page. You're going to interpret these events through the same lens. You're going to get in the car or on the plane or whatever on the way home and talk about them and have pretty much the same take. That is a lot of negative energy to center in the relationship. That should be your fun go to person, right? So if you can have a buddy, if there's someone else you trust there to be your sort of snark, side texting friend, maybe that person will have a different perspective than you on some things and that will help. But also then you and your spouse can be like, hey, let's have fun. Our only mission here is to have a good time. Whatever comes up we'll debrief it on the way home. But while we're here, let's just be in a really good, supportive place for each other.  

Sarah [00:32:06] Well, and this brings me to a thing I struggle with, the debriefing on the way home. When I was growing up, my parents would get in the car and it felt like we had a really good time with our family and we'd get in the car and they would complain and criticize everybody.  

Beth [00:32:19] Yes, I'm familiar with that as well.  

Sarah [00:32:21] I believe this is a universal experience. And even though I didn't like it as a kid, I do it as an adult. What is up with that?  

Beth [00:32:29] We do it when our kids have their headphones on. We really try not to do it in front of them. And that's not even something that we've talked about, is just like an instinct that Chad and I both have. And we will pause. You know, the fainting goats? We will pause from these conversations like the fainting goats, just like suddenly gone. Done. We're out of this conversation when they take their headphones off. Because I think you do have that need to process the thing. I get why our parents did it and I am grateful that my kids disappear into their headphones pretty quickly on a trip like this.  

Sarah [00:33:02] Yeah, because I want to find a balance that says we love these people and also we have to acknowledge that they're hard on us. I mean, it's not like we don't talk about that in our own house, like how siblings are hard at each other and how it's hard to live together. And so I want to give them like a way to do that that's healthy, that they don't feel like why are we just complaining about our people the whole ride home?  

Beth [00:33:21] Is that asking too much of ourselves, though?  

Sarah [00:33:24] I don't know.  

Beth [00:33:25] Look, it's also just hard to be in another place. Like, I see this in my parents more and more. My dad does not want to spend the night away from home these days. He just doesn't. I wish it were different, but it's clear to me he likes his own bed. He likes his shower. He likes his routine. And I respect that. And my dad is a whole lot of fun. But I am positive that when he leaves my house, he is very glad to do that and has some things he wants to say about it. And that's fine. That's fine. So I don't know. This is one where I have a lot of grace for us, I guess.  

Sarah [00:33:59] Well, I think that passing out grace like candy is definitely a center point of all these behavioral structures. Here's the thing too. Try things and if they don't work, we tried. We'll try something different next year. That wasn't the delightful experience I'd hoped it would be, it fell flat. That's okay too. You have to give grace to yourself, whether you're the host or not. And I do think part of this is having something to look forward to and giving yourself the grace if it doesn't work out. I do think having something to anticipate is really important. And so that to me involves changing it up every year, something fun and new to look forward to. The last time we were with my husband's family for Thanksgiving, his brother who hosted it had this drop off in his backyard that was filled with those big rocks that they fill creek beds with. And so we let the kids throw the pumpkins and smash them on the rocks.  

Beth [00:34:54] So fun.  

Sarah [00:34:54] When I tell you my children talked about this for six months. And I thought, oh, man, we're going somewhere different this year. And I'm like, we're going to miss that. I'm like, that's okay. Maybe we'll find the new thing. Everything doesn't have to be a tradition to be worthwhile in the family. I find myself in that trap like in order for it to be good or to form memory, you have to do it every year. But that's not true either. It can just be that one thing we did that was special that one year that can be really impactful too. So I think finding that anticipatory pleasure is really important.  

Beth [00:35:24] My sister has a fun idea about this, so we're all doing our second Thanksgiving with my family. My family is excellent about not having to celebrate on the day of a thing. This is something that I would like to spread out into the world more too.  

Sarah [00:35:39] This is a valuable skill.  

Beth [00:35:40] Yes. To just be like, it doesn't have to be Thanksgiving Day. We just want to get together for Thanksgiving. So most of us are having our second or third Thanksgiving at her house. And so she said, let's do the best dinner concept. Everybody just text me the one food you want to have. And I don't care how they go together or not. I don't care what we end up with. I'm just going to make one dish that is everyone's request for their favorite thing. And we couldn't tell each other, just only her. So I am so excited to see what ends up on this table. I have no idea what's going to be there and I think it's really fun.  

[00:36:10] Music Interlude  

Sarah [00:36:21] I have what I think might be a controversial idea.  

Beth [00:36:25] I'm ready.  

Sarah [00:36:26] To your point about the in-laws, I think-- and I say this as I'm going to a holiday as an in-law. Just want to put that out there. But as a mother myself, I think there should be a space at the holiday for the nuclear family unit to have one small moment with just them. It could be a breakfast. It could be a lunch. It could be a whatever. I guess, depending on how many generations you have getting together. But I think there is a real hunger for people to be with their children. And that's a source of simmering resentment. Because I just think about me, like I have this house with these people that I will have spent two decades of my life being with in a house, just us, and how I will be sad if that is no longer available to me ever. I think about my mother in law, she raised five kids. I bet there are some times where she would just like to be with her kids, not because she doesn't love us and doesn't love her grandkids. Of course not. But just because I think there's a special dynamic that happens. Don't you want some time where it's just you, Chad, and the girls, even 20 years from now?  

Beth [00:37:39] I don't think I can know how I'll feel 20 years from now. Sitting here today, the thought of them growing their own families makes me so excited, and getting to know new people and have more people here makes me really excited. So sitting here today, nothing about that appeals to me and it doesn't appeal to me thinking about being with either side of my family either. I can't imagine being with my mom, dad and sister and Chad and my brother in law not being there at this point. That feels very weird to me. And our kids, I think our kids are the real joy of those gatherings right now anyway. So I am not with you on this one. I wouldn't be mad about it. I think if someone made that request of me, I think I get where it is coming from, but I don't relate to it.  

Sarah [00:38:22] Well, you know what kind of brought it to the forefront for me is that a few years ago, my mom and my dad and I went to breakfast. And it is the first time the three of us had gathered as a family unit. Thirty years maybe at least, if not longer. And it's not like I was like I want this all the time, but something kind of knitted itself back together when that happened. There was just a little bit of like, oh, right, this is a part of who I am. And I see this with my grandmothers. But I think there's always this concern of like, we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. And, of course, I think both things can be true. I have no doubt that I will delight in my children as they grow and form new families and raise children. And also a part of who I am is this time with them as their mother, with no one else around. I see that a little bit with my grandmothers. I see that with my mom. My parents were doing this thing where they still do it, where they rotate on Sundays, they take one of my sons by themselves for lunch after church. And one time I suggested like, "Hey, I want to be in the rotation." And the joy on my mother's face when I said, "It can just be the three of us," was palpable. And it always doesn't work out. We haven't done it in a long time, but I try not to skip out on it unless I'm literally not there because I know that means a lot to her, to have me all to herself. I think that's a sign of the delight you take in your kids, right? That sometimes you want them all to yourself.  

Beth [00:39:55] I would like to propose an amendment then to your controversial idea here. And that is, can this happen not around the holiday?  

Sarah [00:40:04] Now, that is fair. Well, that's so hard though. It's a hard thing.  

Beth [00:40:07] I get it.  

Sarah [00:40:08] Depending on how many kids you have.  

Beth [00:40:10] But also as an in-law, I would not be thrilled with-- and you take care of all the kids. You do the work of things. You find something to do with yourself and all the children so that the nuclear family can have a moment. I think that sucks and I would not be up for that.  

Sarah [00:40:29] Yeah, I've been thinking about this and I thought well before there are children, if I have in-laws, I'll just be like, "Hey, I will send you to the spa while we go to lunch."  

Beth [00:40:37] I would be delighted to take that.  

Sarah [00:40:39] But I'm just trying to think about with my in-laws, how could I make this happen? Because there are enormous amount of kids. Now, they're all a lot older. And I would pre-approve this with my sister in law who I don't think would appreciate me signing them up for this, but I just do think that there's a hunger for that. I feel it. I sense it. My instincts aren't usually wrong about this kind of thing, so I'm trying to just figure out a way to make it happen. And to bring up Gabrielle Blair again, you hear in moms with big families, like when the kids are together all at the same time, that's a big damn deal. It's hard to make that happen. I just wonder if that would ease some of those resentments and knit back together some of that need so we could find some space in other parts of the holidays.  

Beth [00:41:23] I think it would ease some and create some. I think that all things would happen at the same time.  

Sarah [00:41:28] Yeah. It's taken me a long time to get to that point, obviously, with my in-laws. Honestly, the closer I get to being a mother in law, not surprisingly, the more empathy I find for my mother in law. What a surprising psychological experiment that is. But I think all the time about a friend of my mother's who told me, just remember, however you're treating your mother in law is how you're teaching your sons to treat you. It's not how you treat your mother. It's how you treat his mother. And so that is a huge source of stress I think. I think the mother daughter relationship and the mother in law and the daughter in law relationship are perhaps the two main sources of stress inside families. I think there's maybe some emotional and cultural excavating we could do there since we're carrying all the emotional burden and somehow also creating a lot of the tension. But that is perhaps for another episode.  

Beth [00:42:26] Well, but what I will say about that and the reason that I proposed this not happening on the holiday, or the organizer coming up with a plan for the kids, is a lot of that stress lives in resentment because we're doing a lot of the labor around this stuff. And if you've done a lot of that labor your whole life and you're tired and feel like nobody helped you, and where was everybody when the dishes needed to be done or whatever? Or you have a very young child and you're doing a whole lot of the labor, yeah, you're pissed about things that other people aren't. You're frazzled and tired in a way that other people aren't. Or you've been nursing some of that feeling for a long time. So I don't begrudge us the difficulties because especially around the holidays, so much of it falls our way.  

Sarah [00:43:12] Yeah. And I think that's the thing we want to talk about. Well, two things. One, I do want to acknowledge kids can be a source of stress, but they can also be a source of joy. I think if you have a newborn at a family gathering, maybe if you're not the mother of the newborn, but if the newborn is present, you already have a secret weapon because I can show you my heart rate when I hold a newborn. It drops. It's like meditating. It is just an oasis of peace and calm. And I think toddlers, while not my favorite, are an excellent distraction during family gatherings. There's just a lot of joy and momentum and energy that can be found in the children, which hopefully is also a good touchpoint and a guidepost like that's why you're here, is to create that ongoing connection for future generations.  

Beth [00:43:57] And, look, even the holding of the newborn is not without its difficulty depending on how new the newborn is. Parents might not want to pass that baby around. Maybe it's because it's cold and flu season. Maybe it's because they just want to hold their own baby and they're looking for other kinds of help from people. And it is real easy to react negatively to someone who comes in with an entitlement about holding a baby. So, again, it's just naming that stuff. I think that's where the red flag green flag idea is such a good one. Just say in advance, look, I want to hold my baby. I understand everybody else loves a baby. At this event, I just want to hold my baby. Thank you in advance for respecting that.  

Sarah [00:44:39] Listen, I'm a baby hog. It is a touch point. That is the most intense conflict I've ever had with my own in-laws, was around baby holding and hand-washing. But that makes sense. They are a lot of energy on both ends of the spectrum, right? They can bring a lot of joy. They can bring up a lot of conflict. Probably just something to be aware of with the children and the babies at a holiday gathering. And then I think your other point about the emotional labor is really important. This is probably the blending of the emotional illumination and the behavioral structure because it's not going to be shared equally. There is no family scripted for TV, movies, or in real life in which the sort of emotional labor-- and that word has negative connotations-- the emotional maintenance or whatever, is going to be shared equally among the family members. Never, ever. People are too different, situations or too varied. And so I think releasing that as the person, if you're listening to this episode, if you care enough to listen to this episode, you're probably going to be doing more than your fair share. That's okay. That's okay. I think that's fine. Just sort of do that upfront, build in some 30 second hugs to complete those stress cycles and know like I'm doing this because I care. It's sort of back to how we started. Why are we here? Why are you listening to this episode? You want to enjoy your people. That might involve a little more effort on your part than others, but that's okay. If you rotate that ever so slightly from another vantage point, that's an opportunity for gratitude. Maybe you have the additional resources, time, money, psychologically, spiritually, physically, whatever to do that. And are you lucky to have that chance and to have people to care about and the time and energy and space to think about how to enjoy them.  

Beth [00:46:31] Yeah, you can share the tasks, right? There's a form of labor that can be divided equally, and that's part of good planning. Who wants to do the dishes? Who wants to set up the chairs? Who wants to fold the napkins? Whatever. But that part of just caring, especially as a host, really caring about how everyone feels, is something that not everyone is capable of doing. And so we just have to lean into our gifts. This is my gift. I'm going to use it without resentment. And if I feel like I'm going to resent doing it, then it's my job to take care of that. It's my job to say, "Not this year. I'm sitting this one out."  

Sarah [00:47:05] And what I do know for sure is that this community does have that gift. It showed up in the answers you sent us when we asked about this and your suggestions and your love and your humor and your affection and your real devotion and dedication to continuing to try. Because that's the key, right? Emotionally, behaviorally, is to just try to enjoy your people. And maybe we won't get it perfect this year. In fact, we will absolutely not get it perfect this year, but we will keep trying. That's what we're dedicated to here at Pantsuit Politics, and we're so grateful to each and every one of you for showing up and trying with us about the news about politics, about enjoying your people all times of the year, but especially this one.  

Beth [00:47:50] We hope that you'll come back and spend more time with us. If you are not already a subscriber to our podcast, we would love for you to be here and spend some time with us each week on Tuesdays and Fridays. You can also rate and review our show on your favorite podcast player, which helps other people find us. And as we like to say here, have the best holiday available to you.  

[00:48:08] Music Interlude  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

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