Should Joe Biden Run in 2024?

August 23, 2022 Pantsuit Politics: Should Joe Biden Run in 2024? Blue Background with Sea Green and Orange Text. A Picture of Joe Biden in his signature aviator sunglasses smiling outdoors and pointing in the distance.

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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EPISODE RESOURCES

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:00] To me, this language you hear from the Biden administration, which is he feels like he's the only one that can beat Trump, I don't think that's a good enough reason. It seems to be the only one they have. The only one I'm hearing articulated is this fear-based I have to do it because who else could? I don't know. I think that he has done a fantastic job. He has done what he set out to do. And he should rest on those laurels and pass the baton to the younger generation. 

[00:00:33] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:35] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:37] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:52] Hello and welcome to Pantsuit Politics. We're so glad you're here. If you are new, welcome. You might not know that Sarah and I are both moms. We have five kids between us. All of them attend public schools. We span second grade to eighth grade this year, so it's back to school time. Hallelujah and amen. And we want to talk about schools today. It is easy to start a firestorm when talking about schools. We take a different approach to the news here. So we really don't want to talk about the firestorm issues. We want to talk about what's really going on in schools and where parent and community engagement could really make a difference. Outside of politics, we have two new middle schoolers in our family, so we'll chat about that. But first, we're going to dig into a really timely and significant topic whether President Joe Biden should run again in 2024.  

Sarah [00:01:41] Was that tongue in cheek? So it sounded. Before we jump into that, we'd like to invite you to subscribe to our newsletter. We publish it once a week on Fridays, and with our kids back in school, we have a little more time and space to write for the newsletter. Beth wrote a beautiful one on Friday. We invest a lot of time in Karin sending something to you. Sometimes you'll get a note from Beth and I, sometimes from Maggie and Alise, sometimes from a listener. We have received a lot of really encouraging and wonderful responses to our newsletters recently, so we can tell that they're connecting. If you aren't subscribed, just go to our website pantsuitpoliticshow.com and scroll down to the home page just a bit to enter your email address and start getting our weekly newsletter. And up next, we're going to talk about Biden's future prospects.  

Beth [00:02:34] Well, I did roll my eyes a little bit about this question of whether President Biden should run again, because it's fascinating to me how many pieces are being written about this today. But I know that pieces are being written and people are interested in this topic and everyone has an opinion. So, Sarah, where are you on the question of should Joe Biden seek re-election?  

Sarah [00:02:55] Well, I was a little more frustrated when I felt like this conversation started two hot minutes after he was sworn in. I do think it's more appropriate now. I do think as soon as the midterms are over. 2024 is going to begin in earnest. And let's be honest. You know it and I know it, the time between August and December is approximately four and a half minutes give or take a few seconds. So I do think we have to start talking about it. And if he is not going to run again, that he would need to announce that soon. I mean, not by law. There is some historical precedent for presidents waiting until the last minute like Lyndon Johnson. I brought that up, my husband was like, that was a million years ago. So I don't know how recent that precedent is, but I do think if he's not going to run, he would need to announce that soon. My concern is that he is going to run.  

Beth [00:03:56] So your concern is that he is going to run. Meaning you think that would be a bad idea?  

Sarah [00:04:01] I think that would be a bad idea. I don't want to sound ageist, but he's too old. So is Donald Trump, for that matter. He would be, what, 84 by the time he left office. I do not think that that is good for him, is good for the country. I think it's incredibly problematic politically when the Democratic coalition depends so much on young voters who want to see themselves represented in their leadership. And I love Joe Biden. I think he has had an incredibly successful first term and we're only two years in. I think his legislative record with this Congress is hard to argue with. I mean, they just signed the Inflation Reduction Act. All these pieces of legislation that he has gotten through are going to have a huge impact on the country for years and decades to come. And he should be very proud of that. I don't think he needs to, nor should he run again.  

Beth [00:04:56] My personal Biden approval rating has gone way up in the past couple of weeks because of his way of staying out of the way. Essentially, I think he did such a good job of letting Congress figure it out around signature parts of his legislative agenda. He stepped back and allowed it to unfold. And I think that was great. I think it is fantastic for the country and everyone that he has said nothing about the Mar-A-Lago raid as of the time we're sitting down to record. Just the stay out of the way, do the work, keep your head down approach. It is starting to feel to me again like there are adults in charge, like we're figuring things out. Not everything is perfect to be sure, and they are working on it. It just feels like everything I have a concern about, if I do a little digging, I can find where someone is working on it and that feels really good. You covered this on the news brief really well last week too. So I am a fan of the way he is presidenting currently.  

Sarah [00:06:03] Agreed.  

Beth [00:06:04] I've had a pretty neutral feeling about whether he runs again or not. I wish for anyone that they could be out of the stressful phase of life by about 75. He clearly chose differently. I would hate for my husband, grandfather, friend to be at that level of intensity every day of life at that age. My opinion is probably tilting more strongly away from him running again, even as his approval rating with me is going up because of this investigation of Trump. And I think it could be really helpful for the country right now for him to come out and say we are in really uncharted territory with the January six committee and all of the fallout from that event. I have not politicized this in my administration. The Department of Justice is operating independently. But to avoid any appearance that anyone here is compromised by politics on this to the best that we can, I'm going to commit today to not seek re-election now. Well, anybody but me care about that. Probably not. That is not strategic political advice. I don't think that would make a huge difference there. There are people who are still going to say anything that happens to Donald Trump is political. And it is, it is political in some ways. But that to me would be a nice out for him to say this is a transitional presidency. This is a remedial presidency. We are trying to repair a lot of damage that's been done. And so so I'm going to do that in my term here and other people can fight it out for the next time.  

Sarah [00:07:42] I don't want him to do that because to me, the undercurrent of that is like, well, there is something here, so I need to step away. To me, there's this undercurrent of like I have been involved and so I need to step back. So I don't think he needs to say anything about January six or any of this. I think saying like it's remedial is transitional. I've done my job. I've gotten a lot of what I wanted to do, accomplished. It's time to pass the baton to the next generation. I want to float something by you. So when I was in the commission, when I lost my re-election, and then my dear friend Brandy lost her re-election to mayor, I said, you know, not for nothing. I wonder if on the Paducah City Commission, we should -- especially for the more progressive liberal parts of Paducah-- just constantly float one term candidates. People like new blood. They like new faces? They like to see people involved. Serve a term, get out. Serve a term and get out. And I think maybe that's what we need in the presidency. Maybe this idea that, like, incumbency is so powerful, I'm not so sure that's true anymore. I think that we are applying a lot of rules to our political environment that no longer apply. I think the strength of incumbency, I think the importance of two terms. I think the game is changed. We're in such a hyper political, polarized environment. To me, it's like, put somebody new in,  use that honeymoon, get some new stuff done, get out before you become a caricature of yourself in their eyes. Probably too late for some people. Obviously, he was that before he ever stepped in.  

[00:09:06] But to me, this language you hear from the Biden administration, which is he feels like he's the only one that can beat Trump, that is not a reason to run again. That is not a good enough reason to run again. One that assumes that Donald Trump is the nominee-- I don't think he will be, but I don't predict anymore. I was thinking, okay, what's the scenario I'm really not anticipating in my head? And probably the one is like it's Trump and not Biden. Like something happens and Joe Biden doesn't run, but Trump's still out there. I really, really, don't think Donald Trump is going to be the nominee in 2024, but we will see about that. But I think like basing it all on that, not giving the opportunity to somebody else to show leadership, not building out the bench, not saying like it's time for the next generation of leadership and saying like, I'm the only one. Although he said it last time, I didn't support him in the primary and he might have been right. I don't know. We don't really know. Right. We don't really know if Joe Biden was the only person that could beat Donald Trump in 2020. And so I don't think that's a good enough reason. It seems to be the only one they have. The only one I'm hearing articulated is this fear-based I have to do it because who else could? And also, I just think that political calculus does not take into the fact that things change once you've been there for a term. And people do like those outsiders and those challengers. I don't know. I think that he has done a fantastic job. He has done what he set out to do. And he should rest on those laurels and pass the baton to the younger generation.  

Beth [00:10:34] So I would like to ask you to assume something that contradicts your instinct for a second. Let's assume that Donald Trump is going to be the Republican nominee. What do you think is the ideal way for President Biden to pass the baton? What would you hope unfolds on the Democratic side, if that's where we're headed?  

Sarah [00:10:56] Well, I jokingly told Nicholas this morning we were talking about it, I guess we all just need to see what Jim Clyburn thinks, because that was the main predictive factor last time. My instinct is to lean on those old political roles, which is you don't want a bruising primary. And in some ways, that seems to still be true. I think we're seeing that play out in a lot of Senate races that the Democratic nominees in the tough swing states that didn't have bruising primaries are surging ahead. Whereas, the Republican nominee is yet to fight it out between establishment, Trump candidates are faring a little bit worse. And the rule that incumbent presidents who have primary challenges often don't win played out correctly for Donald Trump in 2020. So since so much of our political focus has been on primaries, I'm not sure if that rules is completely gone. But that's the only thing that gives me concern. Is not necessarily is he the only person that can beat him, but do we want to spend a lot of political time and capital on a bruising primary? And I think even if he stepped aside and he sort of picked his successor and says from the beginning, I'm not running. This is who I'm endorsing-- which I don't think is likely. But let's just say he did. And to me, even if it's somebody, I would be like, no, I don't think they're really weak candidate. I still think that's probably one of the best case scenarios because I think the more we can eliminate that primary, again, to bring up Jim [Inaudible] and I think that's what helped in 2020. Is there wasn't this situation where we just fought it to the bitter end. We kind of had this moment we're like, okay, that sounds good. We're going to go with him. That's my concern, is that if he doesn't run again and we have this really hard primary, and we have a candidate that's kind of weakened by the time they're going in against Donald Trump. That's definitely my concern. And I'm sure some of the concern within the Biden administration when they're trying to make this decision.  

Beth [00:12:52] When I think about your commission borne one term idea, I like that. I would hope to see following that idea more of a pattern of Cabinet members stepping in as the nominees, because I do think there's such a learning curve for the presidency that unless you've been a governor or a cabinet member, I would be a little bit nervous about you just having the four years. It seems like we've had presidents who really did need to settle in. So if I think about that, the cabinet has a lot of possibility, I think, for a very strong Democratic nominee this time. I would probably make my strongest case right now for Gina Raimondo, who's been both a governor and a cabinet member. I think people [Inaudible] judge is always in this conversation and has done something we were talking before we started recording, something very smart and kind of stepping up to put pressure on airlines. Right now he clearly is connected to what are people feeling and what can I do about that. But I think there are a number of strong choices in the current cabinet who I would love to see Biden just like get everybody in a room, hash it out, pick someone, endorse them and say, like, this is where we are. I'm sure there would still be a bruising Democratic primary because I'm not sure Democrats can help themselves. And I don't think that's bad. That's not a criticism, it's just an observation. I'm curious to see if what you said about the primaries holds coming out of New York, where there are some pretty bruising Democratic primaries taking place as this episode's coming out. So, I don't know. I hope for America that we do not do Trump versus Biden again or any variation on that theme, because I do think we are ready to move on. I think getting there is going to be pretty chaotic.  

Sarah [00:14:46] Well, I did anticipate this lack of experience, but I really think the Biden administration has shown a model for that. And I think it was the Biden administration and the experience gained during the Obama administration, because I think sometimes what you're running up against is sort of generational transition. Because people from the Clinton administration were aging out by the time the Bush terms were complete. And so you had a fresh crop of people with the Obama administration. But with the Biden administration, they were close enough in time that they could use those people's experience. I really think that's what we're seeing in, of course, Biden's own experience. I just think there's some way to workshop around that. It doesn't necessarily have to be the actual president. I think there's a way to support the person and get a lot of experience inside the administration that helps support that. And I think what they've done is smart with the cabinet, which is know that we have the support sort of built into a lot of the bureaucracy in a way. And so we can build out the bench by putting younger members of the Democratic Party inside the Cabinet. I think that was a great idea.  

[00:15:53] But again, if you're thinking that far ahead in advance and you're doing that and you understand it's a priority, then why would you run for a second term? That bench is going to get stale. Like, why would you do that? You need that churn.  I hate to be this sort of shallow about it, but you just have to keep America's attention. They like fresh faces. They like energy. They like momentum. I know that seems crazy talking about Joe Biden, who is the president, who America elected. But I think that there is that energetic component that you just have to consider. Now, let me ask you a question because we are both skirting around one of the most difficult parts of this, which is Vice President Kamala Harris, who would be the obvious choice to pass the baton to. But there seems to be some concern that she is not ready to be the nominee, that she would not be a strong nominee, that the Biden administration has saddled her with a lot of heavy issues, not giving her the tools to rise to the challenge. And so I think that's got to be a part of this conversation as well.  

Beth [00:17:02] Yeah, I was going to go there next as well. I think here's what I wish for Vice President Harris. I wish for her to stand beside him as they announced that this was a transitional and remedial administration. And for her to also say that she is not going to run. She has had a historic term for all of the tumultuousness and all of the terrible coverage. She's cast some very significant votes in her role as the tie breaking president of the Senate. She has traveled around the world. She has been the first woman, the first black woman, the first Asian American woman. I mean, I wished for her to revel in those firsts, to go teach at a university or something and give speeches and be like a beloved figure who is available as a diplomat in the future. I think about the kind of work that Bill Clinton has been able to do since he was in office. I could see Vice President Harris being drafted for some of those missions abroad. What do we want to do next? I wish for her to be able to be appreciated more by the public, and that will not happen if she runs for president.  

Sarah [00:18:18] But you know and I know that that's not going to happen. She is not going to step back. I would be truly shocked if that's what she chose. But I think she has shown herself-- I mean, this is not a criticism-- to be ambitious. And ambitious people don't step away as they race the vice presidency where the presidency is so close you can taste it. And I think those tiebreaking votes have been historic, but that has been a burden as much as it has been an opportunity. And I think that's part of the problem, too.  

Beth [00:18:48] I don't think stepping back has to mean forever, though. I mean, something that Hillary Clinton did very smartly was recognize you back off a little bit, you get a different role and then you can come back out more popular. And I just think that that might be a good next step for vice president Harris.  

Sarah [00:19:07] It' s going to be interesting. The problem is so many of these people have people around them offering them very different and often conflicting advice. And offer nothing, I guess we should probably also say I don't want to see Bernie run again either. I don't want to see Bernie on the ticket. I know I think that there is a progressive wing of the party that wants to feel represented in the primary. That's fine. I don't think it should be, Bernie. I think it should be somebody else. And I think that's going to be interesting to watch as well. And a really important component of this.  

Beth [00:19:41] Well, we'll keep following the midterm elections first because that is the most critical next step in this process. And then we'll start to talk about the parties, the fundraising, the developments. We have some episodes planned in January to really try to start to get us all into the frame of mind of a presidential cycle and what it involves. But at a high level today, those are our biases going into the next chapter of our election coverage. Next up, we are going to talk about what's going on inside of American public schools. In our book Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About basically everything), we include a chapter about community institutions, and we tell a little about our experiences with having kids learn at home during COVID 19. And Sarah, as I was thinking about this, I feel like any discussion of schools that doesn't start with the impact of COVID 19 is missing some critical context. So I wondered if we might do a little of that reflection first. How do you think about your kids going into public school now after having some strange years behind us?  

Sarah [00:21:00] I mean, nothing but with pure and total gratitude, I'm so grateful for the public school system. And I just try to keep that front of mind with everything. Any critique I have, any problems with a teacher or an administrative choice, I just remember that it's the same problems that we had in 2019. Only on top of all that, now we have kids with real learning gaps, real dramatic learning loss. I was listening to Erica Mandy's special episode of The NewsWorthy about returning to school. And it was so interesting as we go on this conversation and as we have a conversation at the end of the show about our middle schoolers, they were saying like elementary school kids are about three years behind, middle school are five. And they think some of that might be because of the social emotional gaps that they suffer during the pandemic and how impactful that is on their learning, because the social aspect of school is so important because of their developmental phase. And so I just think all of that it's something that continues to and will continue to affect so many parts of the public school, really every part of the public school.  

Beth [00:22:17] In addition to that gratitude, I find myself more aware all the time of how many needs schools are asked to meet right now and how complicated those needs are. How you can't even really sort students neatly into groups. When I look at my own two kids, their personalities are totally different, their needs are completely different. And I think the way the pandemic affected them is quite different. So even in my own household, I don't have a neat and tidy here's what's next. Here's what they really need next to thrive in their learning. You get a classroom full of students, or if you're a teacher who sees 100 or more students a day trying to be present and aware of all of those needs, let alone meet them, has got to be daunting.  

Sarah [00:23:04] Absolutely. Both you and I signed up to be substitute teachers last year. And my few experiences inside the classroom have shown me that there's no like sort of traditional we're just going to stand up at the board and teach now, because who are you teaching to? Everybody is in different spots. People learn differently. People have questions about different things. I don't understand this. I mean, it really is an incredible task that we ask teachers to perform every day in these classrooms. And I think the other thing that COVID really put in trap really for me that I always try to remember is just there's so many constituencies. I'll never forget Michelle Rhee saying this one time, and I know she's a controversial figure inside public school conversations, but she said that students often don't have somebody looking out for them. They're the one constituency that doesn't have an advocate. And I don't know if that's necessarily always true, but when you really think about even just the way we talk about public schools, we talk about teachers and students and parents more, I think, since COVID 19. But that's not even the complete picture. You're talking about taxpayers. You're talking about politicians at the state and federal level. You're talking about local administrators. You're talking about the state board of Education, the local board of Education. You're talking about principals and administrators within the school systems cells. You're talking about staff, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, janitors. And then you're also talking about the teachers. And you're talking about students.  

[00:24:34] There's constituencies within the student body itself. You're talking about IEPs and special education. I mean, it's just such a massive ecosystem of overlapping interests when you talk about a public school system. And listen, that's acting like the public school system is contained and separate from the private school system, which it is decidedly not, especially when it comes to politics and the interplay between those two. And look, and I didn't even mention sports or extracurriculars. It's just so massive. And often those constituencies conflict, they come into conflict with one another in ways where there isn't an easy good guy or a bad guy. I think that there is an enormous amount of defensiveness within the public school system from all parties. Parents are defensive, teachers are defensive, administrators are defensive. And I don't think that that's even something to to be criticized. It's a probably a really honest and authentic emotional reaction to the burdens we place on our public school systems.  

Beth [00:25:48] I think defensiveness is a really helpful framework because it does seem like every issue-- you can't talk about anything, snacks, without it getting hot fast. And as we were preparing for this episode, so much of what really impacts education is like relatively mundane. So one of the stressors on school systems right now is just how many people moved during the pandemic. When people move, it changes the calculus, it changes how many students go in which building and what bus routes are needed, how many teachers are needed, and how many custodians and cafeteria workers. I mean, just moving is a massive disruption for public schools and it happened a lot over the past couple of years. And we don't see people showing up at school board meetings saying, how can we help with that? What do we need to do next? It instantly becomes a fight. Everything does. We have this controversy right now over whether there actually is or is not a teacher shortage. But a fair thing that you can say, no matter where you fall on that is this a crisis question, is that the pandemic exacerbated difficulty in hiring for positions that were already really hard to hire for special education, English language learning, science and math. It's already hard to hire for high poverty, high minority urban and rural public schools, and it's even harder on the other side of COVID. So I just wonder how we can start to take some of the sting out of these conversations and just get to like, here are the facts, here are the factors involved, what do we want to do next?  

Sarah [00:27:28] Who's arguing there's not a hiring crisis. Florida has like 9000 unfilled positions. Who thinks that's not a crisis?  

Beth [00:27:35] Well, there are a bunch of articles right now saying that this has been greatly exaggerated and that the time of year that you're looking at those questions matters a lot. It's normal to have a bunch of unfilled positions in June. So if you're looking at June data, you can read a narrative on to that that isn't there, but it is like different across locations in the country.  

Sarah [00:27:56]  Yes. Some states have it worse than other. Yes, that's for sure.  

Beth [00:27:58] And there's a normal amount of attrition. I think that a lot of education nonprofits have been pushing back on the idea that teachers are fleeing the profession in an exodus because of the pandemic and because of political factors. And I think part of what they're saying and pushing back on that is stop acting like teachers don't care about this profession. They care about the profession. They aren't just fleeing because it's gotten hard. There have been some long term problems that are a little harder now. But let's tone down the drama on it and try to figure out what we want to do.  

Sarah [00:28:32] I think there are some states that have dealt with this better than others. New Mexico, I know changed some of its substitute requirement so that retired teachers could come back without affecting their pension. That's a really smart policy that you should check on in your own state. And if that's not happening, that is one policy fix that could start to address this crisis. But do I think it's an accident that states that, like, Texas and Florida whose governors have centered culture wars on the public school systems are having problems hiring? No, I do not. But we are having those problems here too. My friends who are teachers say five years ago we'd have 300 applicants. Now we have three. Like, that's that's anecdotal, but it's also hard to ignore. And you hear that sort of similar experience from many places across the country. And there's some things that bug me about the media coverage, but the overhyping it is not one of them. And that is usually a critique I have about the media. But it drives me crazy when I see these articles or Instagram posts that are like laying out all these systemic problems low pay, high dissatisfaction, the presence of high stakes political issues coming to play in the classroom, all these things. And they're like, what you really need to do say thank you. Okay. What? No, no, no. Are you kidding?  

[00:29:52] First of all, of course say thank you. But if we have not learned anything from COVID, which is a mug and an apple are not going to fix the problems inside our public school system, then we have not learned much. You need to advocate for your public education system with your political representatives, not just send a nice note to your teacher, which you should do. Again, I'm not saying that that's not important. They should feel appreciated, but that is not a long term solution to the systemic problems that our teachers are facing. Even upping the pay, which is essential and should be a first step. Teachers should make more money, but that's not going to be a quick and easy fix to the problems inside our school systems. Like, we have class size problems. We have curriculum problems. We have technology problems. Now we seem to have done what you always say. It's just overcorrect. We went from school systems that couldn't adapt to online learning because of lack of technology to now way too much technology in the classroom, in my humble opinion, and asking 13-year-olds to control their screen time, which blessings I can't control my own screen time. And I just think like there's all these things that we all know are coming to play. And to sum it up with just say thank you more, if I was a teacher, that would make my blood boil.  

Beth [00:31:07] I don't know what helps get to those systemic issues. So schools just received about $190 billion in COVID relief through the various federal bills. And there's a lot of complaining about that right now because you can't really tell a national story about how that money is being spent. Schools are very decentralized. They're state run. There are lots of local governance models throughout the United States. And in a lot of districts, that money is being spread across many priorities. You get a couple new positions on staff, you get some HVAC upgrades, maybe some technology. I know my district spent a lot of COVID money on chargers for Chromebooks and getting Internet service to households. There's nothing objectionable going on. Well, I'm sure someone would object to something somewhere. But overall, you see the list and you think, yeah, those sound like real needs and and good for deploying some dollars. It is hard to identify whether anything is game changing about those funds, though, or whether it was even intended to be game changing or if it's just plugging some holes. And I wonder, like, is game changing a possibility in the public school system? I think we need that. To your point, I think there are some systemic things that I'm not sure any amount of money fixes. It seems like the needs are always going to outstrip the resources because we don't have a common set of expectations about what the public schools should be anymore. They are supposed to be everything to everybody all the time. And I don't know what the next step is when that's where we are.  

Sarah [00:32:54] I think the democratic process can be a good place to have that conversation and start setting those expectations. I don't think it's the best process, but it is the process that we have. And there are school systems, there are models that have found new and innovative ways to try to meet the growing and expansive list of things we want from our public school system. There are school systems that are trying to starve the public school system of funds and send it to private schools. And that's a conversation we need to have. And so we are absolutely in a period of transition in our society and public schools bear the brunt of those transitions often. I think that more than when I was in school, we are transitioning inside the public school system to a more technological age, away from the industrial age, which is a lot of the critique around the public school system. I think we're getting there. We're getting there. It's not going to be overnight. But I have seen changes that are encouraging to me and my local school system as far as let's prioritize this. One of the most encouraging things I think I've seen post COVID is how many of my highly capable, incredible friends are now going back to school to be administrators. Who have been on the ground, saw what they saw through COVID and other wise things that they thought were suffering from a lack of leadership, and they're going to school.  

[00:34:22] It's not just teachers fleeing their profession to other professions. They're going back to school to do other things inside the school system. And I think that's encouraging because I think we have the resources, maybe not always the financial resources, but absolutely the sort of human resources inside our public schools to deal with this transition, to solve some of these problems. We're not going to get it all right, but I think we're on our way. I think COVID both exposed a lot of the ways that transition was not happening and accelerated some of those changes. COVID wasn't all bad for the public school system. It was an enormous stressor. Absolutely. And will continue to be. But I do think, just speaking from my own experience in my own public school system, I think it really revealed places that needed energy and innovation and that energy and innovation is coming. Maybe not as fast as all of us hoped it would, but it is there. And I think that that's encouraging. And that leaves  me hopeful.  

Beth [00:35:26] We ask on Instagram over the weekend what kind of parent and community engagement could make a really positive difference in schools right now? And it was interesting. The conversation kind of got derailed around the topic of like PTO, PTA, fundraising. And people have very strong feelings about that because people have very strong feelings about everything that touches the school. But some of what we gleaned that would be actually helpful right now came through clearly in just investing in your school. Whether you have kids there or not, investing in the public school system in your community. Become a substitute teacher if you can. Volunteer to help out in ways that you're able. I appreciated someone naming as an elementary teacher if she has shapes that need to be cut out for craft projects, being able to send those home for parents to cut out at night while they're watching TV or something like that. So a way that you can contribute that doesn't require you to have the kind of flexibility in your schedule that substituting or otherwise volunteering at school requires.  

Sarah [00:36:32] Yeah. I also love the make sure and say notes about positive things. I sent a note to our middle school principal because I did a back to school night for the first time. And was it chaotic and loud? It was. But I really appreciated being able to go through the doors with my new sixth grader and showing him around and meeting his teachers. It's hard to meet teachers once they're in middle school. So I sent him a note and said, "Hey, this was really great. I'm really glad you did this." I really try to do that. I'm getting a little choked up right now. I mean, we sent a note to our school nurse and our second grade teacher. I mean, they are not just teaching Felix. They are taking care of his medical needs. They are keeping him alive. Like, if he has a low blood sugar on their watch, that's dangerous. And watching the care and attention they bring to that, we're constantly lifting them up and saying thank you. Thank you so much for the care that you give our little boy. It is no small thing to say a lot of what happens in our public schools is life and death and everything in between. And so I know 5 seconds ago I said thank you notes really. But, yeah, thank you notes. I just don't want it to end there and hopefully it doesn't. That's what gratitude does, right? It makes you more aware. And when you put voice to it and you name it, you realize this is so vital and important to me and I can do more than just say thank you.  

Beth [00:37:54] Thank thank you is especially important to teachers of older students. It sounds like many families sort of crap out on the positive school encouragement train as their students get older. And I can see why. I think it is a different relationship and it's a little bit harder. But we hear from middle and high school teachers, I need help too. I need volunteers as well. I need that encouragement also. And above all, I need you to read what my communications by emailing you. So I'm going to need you to read it.  

Sarah [00:38:26] So hard. They get so many newsletter a week. I know. I'm really trying..  

Beth [00:38:32] It's a lot. They need us to read the things. When there are conferences available, they need us to sign up and go to the conferences. I know this can't happen in every family or in every season of life. There are times when families are managing more than they can handle, and even dealing with the communication from school is too much. But when you can, do. And then they also mentioned on Instagram, if you can send in extra supplies, please do and please send nice ones. Ticonderoga pencils pre sharpened. Several shoutouts.  

Sarah [00:39:02] Yeah that's all I buy. It's a waste to buy anything else. I do feel that.  

Beth [00:39:06]  I hope I really want to internalize these messages about when my kids are no longer in school. Because how easy would it be for me later in my life to hit the back to school sale and buy some pre sharpened Ticonderoga and drop them off at our local school just to say I'm a community member, not a parent anymore. I still really care about this. I want to be helpful. We have a beautiful outreach ministry at my church of supplying school supplies and other supplies for our family resource offices locally and so many people. It always touches me to see how many people who are retired and who are long past their interaction directly with the school system get very involved to step up and help out. And I want to follow their example.  

Sarah [00:39:55] Listen, family resources at public schools. Like, if you are feeling convicted about being more active in your public school systems, find out who the family resources officers are at your public school system. Send them an email and say, what do you need? Because it is always something. That is a ministry. It's a public ministry. That's all that is at the end of the day.  

Beth [00:40:19] Well, thank you to everyone who helped us think about these issues. We'll continue to talk about schooling. There are a million issues we haven't touched yet and we will. School lunches. 

Sarah [00:40:29] School violence.  

Beth [00:40:30] School violence. We want to talk about social and emotional learning. So all of that is coming. But we wanted to kick it off today with sort of a back to school overview. Next up, let's just talk about our two middle schoolers and how that's going. So Sarah, Amos started the sixth grade and so did Jane. How is it going for him?  

Sarah [00:40:59] Well, this is not my first middle schooler. Griffin is in eighth grade, but this is very different because when Griffin started sixth grade, it was 2020. So very different experience to our previous conversation that COVID wasn't all bad. I actually didn't mind the half virtual year for my sixth grader because sixth grade is such a tough transition. But, Amos, like I said in the previous segment, we got at back to school day. We got to meet the teachers. Asked him today how's it going, he said, it's not fun, it's not boring. It's just school. But I'm excited that he's going to have a few more extracurricular opportunities in the middle school. He is such a closed book when it comes to what's happening at school, that is hard to get a lot out of him. But I think he's doing okay so far. How about Jane?  

Beth [00:41:55] Jane is not a closed book. She is open. She is annotated. There are footnotes. Jane tells us a lot about what's happening. She has been very happy to be back with her friends and in a routine. Whether she'll really admit that or not, you can tell she just looks lighter and brighter. She's good at school. I think if you're good at school, the harder school gets, the better you get at it. And I think if you struggle in school that the inverse is true and that's tough. She really seems to like her teachers. I think she likes the switching classes and just kind of keeping the day moving and not being stuck with one teacher for the whole day, as she would put it. She is enraged about the dress code, just incensed, and she cannot stop talking about it. And so we have spent a lot of time on how a big percentage of living in community and society with other people is dealing with things that don't make sense to you. But she is livid about the dress code.  

Sarah [00:42:51] Or you could just tell her to fight the machine, man. Protest the dress code.  

Beth [00:42:55] Well, I told her why don't you try to be there for more than two days before you become an activist? And I said, like, if you spend some time and watch this unfold and still believe, as she does, that it is sexist and ludicrous, then yeah, think about what are the right channels to start advocating for those changes. But let's do settle in before we fight the machine.  

Sarah [00:43:19] Yeah, I mean, Griffin protested the dress code. It has not changed and I worry it has fed his cynicism, which is already very high because he watches a lot of YouTube. But I'm interested to see once things settle, if there will be more murmuring about the dress code. Lots of people displeased about the dress code at Paducah Middle School too, I believe. I think middle school is so hard. They say what you learn in middle school is really cemented in your brain because you're basically like a toddler, like, your brain is changing so much what you do learn. But also those changes make learning so difficult. One of the big nice changes we've had with Griffin this year, he's starting his day at the high school. He's taking a high school geometry class and he really likes it. I kind of wish I could just go ahead and send him to the high school if I'm being honest, because you can see that sort of light come on of like, oh, challenging, interesting learning. But  middle school is a tough scene both for the kids and the teachers. My very first substitute gig was in seventh grade science. I do not recommend starting your substitute gig with middle school. Now you are going to just substitute your kids school. Are you going to substitute at the middle school now?  

Beth [00:44:23] Yes, I will. I just want to be in a building where I know a few people so that I can ask for directions and things like that. That's what I have felt convicted about [Inaudible] just being in their schools.  

Sarah [00:44:36] But it is. It's just a tough age. I had a friend tell me, a woman I respect in our community said once her kids were teenagers, her role was I'm not going to serve on any more boards. And I thought that's a good policy because it is an emotionally and intellectually intense exercise. Toddlers and babies are physically intense just from the sleep and the running and the keeping up with. But teenagers are a whole other level of parenting.  

Beth [00:45:05] That's right. I am struggling so much with how firm and how quantitatively many expectations do you set when you can see those changes happening. I can see that that Jane's body is a laboratory where things are just bubbling and simmering constantly. And I struggle with what is our role right now and how do we provide guidance and support and a sense of safety, psychological and otherwise, and also have a real awareness that this is a hard time.  

Sarah [00:45:45] I know. And we're just dealing with one. Imagine being a teacher in middle school and having a room of like 25.   

Beth [00:45:51]  Thank you to all of you who do that. That is not why I was put here on Earth. I'm clear on that. That is not my calling. And I appreciate people who are willing to do it.  

Sarah [00:46:00] But it is special, like, when you breakthrough to your own teenager or middle school or someone else and you see that moment where you can kind of like see the break in the clouds and they connect with you. It is very, very, special. And I can see the appeal of that and I do. I'm incredibly appreciative of the middle school teachers and welcome any and all advice from our listeners about this new phase of parenting.  

Beth [00:46:24] And I do love it. I agree with you there. Her thoughts are so interesting. When she's really in the zone, jane's a great babysitter. Just watching her when she's in the zone and she feels good about what she's doing, it's a beautiful thing that I will take over returning to that toddler phase any day. I will take the emotional challenge over the physical challenge of the early years, for sure. Well, thank you all for being here. Thank you for any advice in advance that you extend to us. I am sure that we will receive lots of email this week and we'll take it. Thank you all for joining us. We'll be back in your ears on Friday with five things you need to know about monkeypox. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:47:12] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:47:17] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:47:23] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:47:27] Martha Brontisky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.  

[00:47:46] The Kriebs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthof.Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:48:04] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  




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