Back in the Saddle Again
TOPICS DISCUSSED
Progress in Congress
Catching Up on January 6th Hearings and International News
Outside Politics: Sarah and Beth’s July Break
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EPISODE RESOURCES
Team Eastern Kentucky Relief Fund (Kentucky.Gov)
Congress in July
Summary: Closing Tax Loopholes In The Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 (democrats.senate.gov)
Manchin’s Latest Shocker: A $700B Deal (Politico)
The White House Can Raise Taxes on the Wealthy Without Touching the Tax Code At All (Vox)
Briefing Book: A Citizen’s Guide to the Fascinating (Though Often Complex) Elements of the US Tax System (Tax Policy Center)
These 19 Fortune 100 Companies Paid Next to Nothing - or Nothing at All - in Taxes in 2021 (Center for American Progress)
Here’s What to Know About the Manchin-Schumer Tax Deal (Politico)
Fact Sheet: Close the Carried Interest Loophole that is a Tax Dodge for Super-Rich Private Equity Executives (Americans for Financial Reform)
CHIPS Act Clears Congress, Ensuring $52 Billion Boost to US Foundries (The Verge)
Intel Delays Ceremony for Ohio Factory Over Lack of Government Funding (The Verge, Jan 2022)
Susan Collins: Democrats’ Climate Deal May Doom Bipartisan Efforts On Same-Sex Marriage (HuffPost)
Manchin and Schumer Announce Surprise Deal on Climate, Health Care and Tax Package (CBS News)
Respect for Marriage Act (Congress.gov)
Why The Coming Senate Vote on Same-Sex Marriage Matters (The Hill)
House Passes Bill to Protect Same-Sex Marriage in Effort to Counter Supreme Court (CNN Politics)
CNN Asked All 50 GOP Senators If They Will Support the Same-Sex Marriage Bill. Here’s Where They Stand. (CNN Politics)
January 6th Committee Hearings
International News
Biden Fails to Secure Major Security, Oil Commitments at Arab Summit (Reuters)
U.S. Expects Military “Provocations” From China if Pelosi Visits Taiwan (Axios)
Blame Game Erupts as Ukrainian POWs Targeted in Russian Shelling (Politico)
Ukraine Address from Volodymyr Zelenskyy (President.gov.ua)
Ukraine’s Demands for More Weapons Clash With U.S. Concerns (The New York Times)
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:00] So Congress has been hard at work. We're proud of them. Aren't we, Beth? I'm so proud.
Beth [00:00:04] I will not let perfect be the enemy of the good.
Sarah [00:00:06] That's exactly right. And they aren't either. And we applaud you. We applaud you, Congress. Not something we get to do here a lot on Pantsuit Politics. And I like this new era.
[00:00:21] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:23] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:24] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.
[00:00:40] We're back. It is so good to be back together after our July break here at Pantsuit Politics, Beth. It's so lovely to see and hear and be with you again.
Beth [00:00:55] It's lovely to see and hear and be with you as well. I felt like you said 'we're back' ominously. And I fell like, oh, okay. We are back. I am glad to get my feet on the ground and some structure and routine in my life and the chance to process all of the news that I have continued to read and feel kind of anxious about during July because I wasn't getting it processed here.
Sarah [00:01:17] Well, we hope you've been enjoying our summer series. We will share the final episode this Friday. It's a conversation about political conflict in workplaces and local communities. And we are so appreciative of all the listeners who shared their stories so vulnerably and made the series what it is. And we hope it's been helpful to all of you.
Beth [00:01:36] If you have been taking a break from your regular podcast consumption and have missed some of what we've created recently, our newsletter is a really good way to catch up. You can subscribe on our website to get our Friday email. It includes updates on everything we're doing, notes from our team, some really wonderful notes from the community of people who listen to the podcast as well. Maggie does an incredible job putting that together. We know you'll enjoy it. It's only once a week, so if you aren't subscribed already, head over to Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com and get connected with us.
Sarah [00:02:07] And this is an excellent opportunity for me to say thank you for the Friday newsletter this week, which was an ode to Sarah for my birthday. I was not expecting it. I just kind of opened it on a whim and cheking my email, then I was a blubbering mess. Thank you so much to you Beth, and Maggie, and Alise for the incredibly, sweet, kind, thoughtful, loving words for me on my birthday. And thanks to all the listeners who reached out and sent me birthday wishes and gratitude. It just really was lovely.
Beth [00:02:40] And happy birthday to you, since we're still in your celebratory window.
Sarah [00:02:44] Yeah, for sure. You get, like, a whole week, I think. You get a whole week, maybe a month, depending on how big of a birthday it is. I'm enjoying 41. Are you are you feeling 41 so far?
Beth [00:02:55] I think that being in my forties is going to be my decade.
Sarah [00:02:59] We're here. All right, we're going to get started. Up next, tackling all the things we missed throughout the month of July. But that probably wasn't 100% accurate. We're not going to tackle everything that happened during the month of July, but we're going to do our best. It's quite a list. We're going to do our best. And, of course, we are going to start with our beloved home state of Kentucky, which experienced tragic, tragic, flooding over the weekend. Now let's do a little Kentucky geography. I live in far western Kentucky on the border of Illinois and Missouri. And we had terrible tornadoes last December.
Beth [00:03:48] And I live in northern Kentucky, close to the Ohio border. And we have been mercifully safe during the tragedies that Kentucky has experienced this past year. So the floods are in far eastern Kentucky, near West Virginia. Kentucky is a very long state, there is a lot of space between where these floods took place and where we both live.
Sarah [00:04:10] I can drive to Florida before I can drive across Kentucky, just to give you a little perspective.
Beth [00:04:15] But the people of eastern Kentucky just keep getting hit with flash floods and ice storms. And now we have this terrible flooding. As we are recording, 28 people are known to be dead. But we also know that number is going to rise as rescuers keep reaching toward more remote parts of the community.
Sarah [00:04:34] I heard a reporter from eastern Kentucky describe it as beautiful country and relentless country, because that's why the rescues are so hard, right? They are remote. They are secluded. There are long winding roads, hills, mountains. It's hard. It's going to be hard to get to people. And even worse, they're getting more damn rain as if these people need anything else to deal with it. But Kentucky has a beautiful community-driven spirit and it is showing up. I don't know about you, Beth, but here in western Kentucky, I have had so many community members pile up supplies. Even the communities that are still recovering from the tornadoes, packing up supplies and emergency equipment and heading to eastern Kentucky to feed these people to help in any way they can. So it is in these moments that we see humanity shine through intense tragedy and struggle.
Beth [00:05:38] I really like how Governor Beshear has embraced this idea of Team Kentucky, because you saw eastern Kentucky really reached for western Kentucky during the tornadoes and that's being reciprocated now. I also feel like that is a good framework as we start to talk about what are we going to do because this isn't going to be the last one. Especially as we think about-- and I'm glad to hear more conversation about this-- the fact that the topography of eastern Kentucky is hard, but it's been stripped of some of the features of that topography that would protect against some of this terrible flooding. All of the mining that's been done in that part of the state. There's a real attitude sometimes in commentary about Kentucky, like these people do it to themselves. I've noticed that even some otherwise fine articles about Kentucky will start with like, well, I'm talking to Lorene in front of her trailer and she says she's not moving. And there's just this attitude, like, how could people choose this for themselves? And I think that we're doing a better job talking about the fact that a lot of this wasn't chosen. Outside interests came in and took a lot from this region and have left it in this state. And of course, people want to stay here. It's where their homes and their families are, even if they're material possessions, what little they had, is pretty well gone now. And so I appreciate the governor's focus in particular on talking about like we got to get some infrastructure here to help because it won't be the last time.
Sarah [00:07:10] Also not for nothing appalachia is beautiful country, just beautiful, soul affirming country. And we have a lot of conversations around climate change about poor countries around the world suffering some of the consequences. But that is true here in the United States, that poor communities suffer the consequences. And that's most certainly what's happening right now in eastern Kentucky. And speaking of Team Kentucky, we will put the link in the show notes to donate to the Governor Beshear's Team Kentucky Foundation, and the fund that provides relief. They raised enormous amounts of money for western Kentucky. They're doing the same now for eastern Kentucky to help these communities as much as we can. And I think this conversation surrounding climate change is an excellent transition into our next conversation, which is what's happening in Congress. Listen, I'm so proud. They have been working, Beth. They have been working in July.
Beth [00:08:08] I was thinking about like an overall assessment of the Biden presidency and how you cannot discount his ability to just get out of the way and foster an environment where things can get done. Whatever you think of what's happening, the fact that things are happening, this is a lot of really substantive legislation getting done and that's exciting and it feels like very functional and normal and grownup.
Sarah [00:08:37] Yeah, I mean, we've done the show for a long time and we've spent a lot of years talking about we have all these struggles, all these major challenges in front of us, and it doesn't feel like Congress is doing anything. And now it feels like they're doing the things. I like it. I like this feeling. I like to open up my email newsletters and see, hey, you know what, Joe Manchin struck a deal. Now we're going to have a new name for it. Hey, listen, it's not an acronym. Are you happy about that?
Beth [00:09:06] I'm so happy about that.
Sarah [00:09:07] I know. I know. Okay. So it's just the Inflation Reduction Act because that was his previous opposition to build back better. There was headlines in mid-July, he's out, we're done. We're not going to talk about the climate change Build Back Better progressive agenda part of the reconciliation anymore. Joe doesn't want to do it. So I was not letting myself and my emotions rise and fall with the journey of Joe Manchin. I've learned that over these last two years. And that a good choice on my part, because two weeks later they're like JK, him and Chuck, mainly his staff, because Joe Manchin got COVID, which I think might have actually been the straw that broke the camel's back and got things done. The staff negotiated like totally in secret this new Inflation Reduction Act. And should we walk through what's in it?
Beth [00:09:58] Yes. So it begins with climate change legislation.
Sarah [00:10:02] Historic, historic legislation.
Beth [00:10:05] Tax credits and rebates for renewable technologies like solar panels. I have become a solar panel believer this summer.
Sarah [00:10:14] Oh, I bet you have.
Beth [00:10:14] We put them on our house and I believe in what solar panels can do. Wind turbines, heat pumps, energy efficiency and electric vehicles. As Matt Iglesias points out in his newsletter today, this is not the package that environmental groups wanted to go in to Build Back Better. It is, in fact, a better package for the environnment.
Sarah [00:10:34] Listen, louder for those in the back, I love starting first show back with this story. This is amazing. So here's the thing that I think is so amazing and important about this, is that all the reporting is that it wasn't just like the environmental groups. It was incredible work by them, just like laying the foundation, incredible negotiation, you have the staff, you also have all these corporate groups wanting to invest in solar and renewable energy, wanting to invest in West Virginia, calling up Joe and be like, listen, this is not going to happen without the federal government investment. It's just you can see all these different parties coming together. I think even Bill Gates called him up and was like, Joe, what are we got to do to make this happen? And, like you said, even Joe Biden being like, I'm just going to get out of the way. I'm going to get out of the way. We're going to get this done. Y'all do what you need to do. And I just think it is an incredible testament to our government working properly, to the justice negotiating. And honestly, I know some people won't agree with me, even the secretive part because this cannot happen. Like, this complex of a negotiation with all these different players, with the stakes so high cannot happen publicly with protesters on Joe Manchin. Talk a [Inaudible] you know what I mean?
Beth [00:12:01] That, and this is part of a, I think, healthy trend of abandoning the idea that you only get one bite at the apple. The Democrats came in thinking we have one shot, we got to do everything in Build Back Better, all of it. And I know that it's frustrating and it's slow and it's tedious to go bill, by bill, by bill. But that is the way our government was designed to work. And I think you do ultimately get some better outcomes when you go bill by bill. So does this have everything that we need to do forever on climate change? No. This will necessitate further action. We get this many electric vehicles out on the road, we're going to have to have some more electricity in our grid. That is going to require more action. But a momentum of working on problems step by step is healthy. And I think showing that it can be done this way is really important.
Sarah [00:12:57] Now, make no mistake, they did put some other things in this bill.
Beth [00:13:00] Of course they did.
Sarah [00:13:02] So this is a climate change bill, for sure. For sure. It's also a health care bill because when the Affordable Care Act first passed, there was an income gap, really limited people's participation in the marketplace with government subsidies. So they dropped those a little while back and opened it up. I read one report that it opened up to about 7 million more families, but that was about to expire. Didn't want that, so now they've extended it past the next presidential election. So that part of the Affordable Care Act is extended, important, and paid for because this was this was Joe's problem. Apparently, he spent a lot of time on the phone with Larry Summers saying, listen, we're not going to make inflation worse. We're going to pay for this. And how are they going to pay for it? Well, another big thing Democrats have been talking about for approximately a million years, the entire time I've been conscious as a Democrat inside the political arena, is negotiating drug prices with Medicare. So this bill allows them to finally start on it. This is, again, like you were just saying. Did they check this off and we're done. Oh, no, no, no, no. This is just an on-ramp. This is an on-ramp to negotiating drug prices for Medicare. But it just seems so important. It seems bananas to me that our government lets the drug companies set the prices that the government pays for Medicare. That's bananas. So this bill contains like an on-ramp. It's not going to be everybody all at once, but they're going to start with a few bills and then slowly ramp it up.
Beth [00:14:30] Well, and I will say I'm not sure about this. I'm not sure that it's bananas. And so for me, it's comforting to say, let's start, let's try and see what the results are and then tweak and learn what we can learn and then expand if it's working and contract if it's not working. Like that's a good way to problem solve.
Sarah [00:14:47] Yep, yep. So they're going to do that. They're going to start negotiating some drug prices. They are going to invest in tax enforcement because they were like, well, raising taxes seems to make people uncomfortable. So let's start with better tax enforcement because there is all this information, all these studies that say they're going to invest $80 billion in the IRS and if they do that over a decade, they will collect an additional $203 billion in taxes. There's just this huge gap between what people are supposed to pay and what they actually pay. And so they're hoping by investing some money in the IRS, they can bring in more taxes without actually raising them.
Beth [00:15:23] Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about this either, but I am...
Sarah [00:15:26] Now, what's the problem with that? What's wrong with this? What's your concern?
Beth [00:15:30] I just would like to see this directed toward the right players, because a lot of enforcement dollars deployed by anyone can look like going after people who cannot afford to fight back for easy wins or people who can't afford to fight back and getting significant dollars through hard wins. For me, it's the execution of this that I worry about, not the concept. Do you see what I'm saying?
Sarah [00:15:55] Yeah. No, I feel optimistic because people are going to follow up. People are going to pay attention. Especially since they had to drop ultimately they're raising taxes on the richest Americans. To me, this is a place where we we can fulfill some of those campaign promises and say at least we're having the wealthiest Americans pay what they're supposed to pay in taxes through this enforcement. So I feel optimistic we will follow back up with that. They are also closing some loopholes. That includes a 15% minimum tax on corporations with profits over $1 billion. The current corporate tax rate is 21% and so many companies, you read these headlines all the time, AT&T, Amazon, Exxon pay way less than that. So they're hoping this will raise about $313 billion. And then they're also closing the carried interest loophole. Now, this has been a campaign promise not as long as the Medicare one, but for a long time, because private equity and some investment managers, they get to treat their earnings as capital gains. We all know that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate. And so instead of treating those as capital gains, they aregoing to close that loophole and treating them as income. Now, Krysten Sinema was not invited to the secret negotiations. This is a big deal for her. She gets a lot of donations from the private equity industry. So we'll see how she feels about this. But, again, maybe it's just my optimism because we're recording on Monday and the month starts on a monday. You all know how like that. It just fills me with all this big beginning energy. I don't think Krysten's going to get in the way. I think she'll get some things she wants, but I don't think she's going to stop it.
Beth [00:17:38] I would personally not want to be the lone holdout on this over my defense of private equity. If I were a politician of any party, I would not want to be the lone holdout over that issue.
Sarah [00:17:50] Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. So, again, it doesn't include everything. It's definitely smaller than Build Back Better originally started. But can we talk inside baseball a little bit on this bill for a minute?
Beth [00:18:02] Sure.
Sarah [00:18:03] How much how much joy did I get out of all this reporting that this secretive negotiations were a part of, as it was called in one report, out McConnelling McConnell, because Mitch McConnell had threatened to hold up the CHIPS Act, which we've talked about on the show before. Investment and manufacturing chips here in the United States. We all saw over COVID how bad it was that they're basically all made in Taiwan. He was going to hold that up if they tried to do this reconciliation package. So they passed it. They passed the CHIPS Act. Incredible. Again, not more bipartisan major legislation, Congress is actually getting things done. And then like right after that were like, oh, by the way, we struck a deal with Manson and he was mad. You could tell Mitch was mad.
Beth [00:18:50] I just think some reality struck the United States Senate over the month of July where we had Democrats realizing we do not have enough of a majority to do everything that we've ever wanted to do. What can we accomplish? And for Republicans, recognizing we are the minority party right now. We are. And we are going to have to win some more seats if we want Mitch McConnell to really be able to set the agenda forever and always. And this is the kind of maneuver that to me is perfectly acceptable. When you talk about wanting Democrats to play political hardball, this is fair. They are the majority party. They get to do this and there is nothing untold here. This gives me an opportunity to talk about something that I've been wanting to talk about anyway. This is why I love John Fetterman ads. I love him taking it to Dr. Oz over where he lives. That's fair. There's nothing dirty about that. He's doing it in a way that's kind of fun. It has some joy and humor about it, and that's the kind of political savvy that I want to see from this party to counter the threat that I believe is posed often by Mitch McConnell's leadership and by candidates like Mehmet Oz. So I'm just very pleased with the way that the democrats have taken through things. .
Sarah [00:20:15] I'm so pleased.
Beth [00:20:15] And the other nice thing about this is that having Republicans on the defense about votes for gay marriage and votes to support veterans, and a lot of what we're about to talk about, is where they belong. They are in the minority view for the country on those issues. They should have their backs against the wall. There should be clarity. That's the other nice thing about taking this one thing at a time. There's nothing to hide behind on those votes.
Sarah [00:20:40] Yeah, absolutely. And I mean the CHIPS Act to have played politics with the veterans legislation was terrible. To try to play politics with this was terrible. This is a national security issue. As we saw over July with the phone call between Xi Jinping and President Biden, now we're talking about Nancy Pelosi maybe taking a trip to Taiwan. She hasn't said yet. That situation is intensifying and our national security is at risk with this current chip manufacturing situation. And so I'm thrilled, thrilled that this legislation passed. I think you're exactly right. I think that on the defense about these issues is where they belong. And I think that's probably a good transition to talk about the Dobbs fallout, because that feels like the new energy surrounding abortion and gay marriage is that if you are on the outside of the majority view of Americans, you're feeling that profoundly right now.
Beth [00:21:32] One of the most interesting things that I think has happened in the Dobbs fallout is in West Virginia. So you had a court temporarily block an abortion prohibition and the legislature goes back in to work to pass a new one in the meantime. Like, okay, you block that we'll try again. And it's still a terrible law that I am not in favor of at all. But it's interesting to see what it looks like when legislatures realize like, oh, this isn't signaling legislation anymore. And so they have said, like, they have an explicit exception for ectopic pregnancies. Like, suddenly you have to write a law that grapples with reality, not just your vision of abortion as being something that only happens with, like, college students who decided they didn't want a baby. Like, I feel like there's always one narrative advanced signaling legislation. And now that the laws are going to go into effect and the public is like, excuse me, reality is not your one story. We have to do this differently.
Sarah [00:22:39] No, I totally agree. And it feels like more and more stories are coming out. Obviously, we had the just horrendous, tragic, as much language as I can layer on top of the situation to describe a 11-year-old pregnant having to cross state lines to get an abortion, which happened between Ohio and Indiana. Betto has an incredibly powerful ad right now with the Texas woman and the horrendous situation she faced with a wanted pregnancy and a needed abortion. And so just feels like that, like you said, like the reality of this situation is just rushing all over people. And I just think we're at the very beginning of this this journey, trying to figure out how this all settles, what this is going to look like. As we said in our show, the day the decision came out, women are going to be harmed in the meantime, women are going to die in the meantime. It feels like we're in this very intense, still in this very intense. Just like learning for some people and sort of calibration for the rest of us to figure out what this new reality is moving forward.
Beth [00:24:02] And so in the wake of that, you have the House take a vote on contraception and you have a lot of Republicans vote against federal protection for contraception.
Sarah [00:24:13] Including my own representative. I'm sure yours as well.
Beth [00:24:16] Yes, of course. And then we have a gay marriage protection discussion going on. Now, the Respect for Marriage Act is really interesting because it would have the federal government recognize same sex marriage and it would require states to recognize valid marriages from other states. It would not require every state to recognize same sex marriage. That happens within its borders. So there is no conceivable reason to be against this bill, if you look at it that way. They have really kind of said to Republicans, let me take all of your chief objections and consider them and put them into this bill and bake it in. And now we're still having trouble getting the votes. I think that will pass eventually. But because of this fit that Republicans are throwing right now, we have a delay on that.
Sarah [00:25:08] Yeah. So Susan Collins came out and said, like, well, since you privately negotiated within the majority party, get out of here, sister. Listen, I have found some room in my heart for Susan Collins. I do think she's been doing a lot of good.
Beth [00:25:23] She's been hard at work.
Sarah [00:25:23] I want to say that. I want to say that and also get out of here thinking this is where you're going make your stand. Get out of here. Good luck. Good luck to you, sister.
Beth [00:25:34] This is one where you just think, who's your friend who can say like, no, that's [Crosstalk].
Sarah [00:25:38] Not this one. Not this one, girl.
Beth [00:25:39] You want to be the person who says, this is really important and I urge my colleagues to rally around it despite the politics. That's where you want to be on this.
Sarah [00:25:46] Yup. Yup. So Congress has been hard at work. We're proud of them. Aren't we, Beth?
Beth [00:25:50] Mm-hmm.
Sarah [00:25:52] I'm so proud.
Beth [00:25:53] I will not let perfect be the enemy of the good. [Crosstalk].
Sarah [00:25:56] That's exactly right. And they aren't either. And we applaud you. We applaud you, congress. Not something we get to do here a lot on Pantsuit Politics. And I like this new era.
Beth [00:26:03] Me too.
Sarah [00:26:04] So next up, we're going to talk about the January six committee. We're going to talk about some of the things that have been happening around the world after this break. So we had two January six committee hearings, Beth, while we were on vacation. And I told everybody, you know what, I don't mind Liz disrupting my vacation. It was not a burden to watch her hearings from Italy and France. That's how good they are. I just want to say that right now.
Beth [00:26:45] Well, it similarly just feels like, oh, our government can work.That these hearings just feel so functional and adult and serious that it's a joy, even as they're talking about something that is really terrifying and is a threat that is not going away.
Sarah [00:27:03] You know, the Proud Boys, and Oath Keepers one was a lot and it felt like they sped through it, which I understand, but it was a lot. Domestic terrorism is not a pleasant topic. Domestic terrorism in the pursuit of overturning our government is an even less pleasant topic. But that was the first hearing that we had in mid-July. Then they had another one pretty quickly over the 187 minutes that Trump sat in his dining room and watched TV as a coup was launched on the United States Capitol. And then we learned that they're going to be back. We're going to have season two in September.
Beth [00:27:40] On the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers one, I'm really sympathetic to the position of trying to say to the public, this is scary and it is important. And also, I don't want to be an infomercial for it. I just think that's a hard [Crosstalk].
Sarah [00:27:49] Yeah. That's so hard. It is really difficult. I think they did a good job of emphasizing the presence of these groups. What motivates these groups. I thought the testimony from the people that had left the groups was incredibly powerful. And I think it was essential to emphasize sort of the extremists present on that day, just again to just fight back to this, like, well, this was a rally that went wrong. Like, I think they had to do it. They had to go there. They had to show us. They had to really emphasize that some of the people there had a plan. Lots of the people there had a plan, including Donald Trump, for what it was worth. And so I think you're right, though. I think that is difficult. But it was essential and it felt like it was another piece of the puzzle that had to fall into place.
Beth [00:28:49] I had a little Twitter back and forth that was somewhat tense with someone over them saying that these hearings are a show trial. And I said, well, they're not trial at all, so that's not true. But they said they just feel like it's a character assassination on everyone who supported Trump. And I don't know how you can watch the hearings and feel that because every single witness is someone who at some point in a very significant way supported Donald Trump. And most of them up until the very last minute supported Donald Trump. And many of them-- Sarah Mathews is still working for very conservative causes. Matt Pottinger, as he sat there, was defending the work of the Trump administration with no pushback from the committee. I just kind of feel like all of this sense that it's a set up, it's a show, it's entertainment misses the fact that like Adam Schiff has been silent in all of these hearings, but no one. Jamie Raskin has been silent in all of these hearings but one. You have people really focused in on what matters here and allowing this story to primarily be told by the Republicans on the committee through Republican witnesses. There's nothing in that that says we think all of these people are fundamentally irredeemable.
Sarah [00:30:09] Yeah. Now, what do you think about the Justice Department's role? I had a conversation with a family member who's very frustrated. Like, why didn't they start there? Why didn't they charge him? We all knew the second-- why haven't they charged Donald Trump yet now that this evidence is building up? And I was like, well, they can't. The Justice Department can't just take the committee's findings and be, like, here we go. They have to do their own investigation. Like, they can't just take it as gospel truth and start charging people. But that definitely feels like what some people watching the hearings want, for sure.
Beth [00:30:43] I understand why people want that. I also think there are so many legal issues that this committee does not have to contend with that will be part of trying to charge Trump if the Justice Department goes there. And even though I have become a believer through this process that going there is probably needed and appropriate, that's still a really big deal. You cannot take that shot unless you're positive that you can win. And it's really hard to be positive that you can win. Think about what it would be like to try to get a jury in a trial of Donald Trump. There are just so many issues here that are really big issues, and I think taking it seriously not only means being open to the possibility that a former president gets charged with a crime, perhaps a current candidate for office gets charged with a crime, both big deals. But also recognizing that that process will be hard, it will be thorny, it will entail matters that will affect us for generations. And so I trust Merrick Garland to be deliberative and still urgent about this. This should go slow. This should go slow because it's a big deal.
Sarah [00:31:59] I think it's hard because I think so much of the hearing we've talked about the media cycle and keeping people's attention, but the public's attention is not an essential ingredient for the justice system. I don't think it's unimportant, let me be clear. And I think Liz Cheney understands how important it is to sort of build the public case. But that momentum, that sense of urgency, I think that can lead to mistakes. And so we don't want that. This is important enough, just like you said, that it has to be done correctly. Now, we'll say this before we move on. It sounds like all is not sunshine and roses on the January six committee and that there's been some internal debate, frustration with a new midterm strategy from the Democrats, which is funding the bananas, extremists, primary candidates in some Republican primaries. Now, I'm kind of hesistant to say the Democrats. Like, what does that even mean? These are some people making this decision. I don't think this is like Biden gathered everybody up and said this is what we're going to do guys. Some people are taking this strategy. It is a decentralized party just like the Republican Party. Like there are a lot of strategies going on at once. You might disagree with this one, but it seems like it's causing some problems inside the committee.
Beth [00:33:19] Well, it's happening at the party level. Isn't Sean Patrick Maloney's committee like making some of these decisions where you have the party funding some of these.
Sarah [00:33:30] Right. Like the Democratic Senate, the Democratic House, there's all these different committees and funding. And often the party level organization is so different than what's happening in Congress and in specific members or particularly with the president. And so it's still even when there are party level committees, it's still pretty decentralized, you know what I mean?
Beth [00:33:52] I hear that. I don't give that kind of grace to the GOP, though, so I want to be sure that I'm not going out of my way here for the Democrats either. I mean, I think this is terrible and I think there should be quarreling within the committee about this, because if you're trying to say to the public these are existential issues for our country, then you should do everything possible to defeat those candidates. If your choice is between Peter Meijer and a candidate who denies that Trump lost the election, then you should take Peter Meijer even if it means that a Democratic candidate might lose. And I know that there are people who want Democrats to play that game. They say Republicans cheat, Republicans lie, they're dirty. This isn't even cheating. It's just us trying to tilt the scales for ourselves. I'm sorry. This is where I do think Democrats should be on a higher road than this. I do think that it is dangerous to have candidates even emerging from primaries who could still be beaten in the general election, who deny the election results. And and so I'm with the people who are very frustrated about this.
Sarah [00:34:57] I think it's really hard because it's a not a new argument to the ends justify the means. If we're talking about Democrats losing control, what's the future of the January six committee? We all know that. And I think that that is the very difficult calculus. I'm not saying I would come down on the side of the strategy, but I'm also not going to act like it's an easy-- no, we don't do this, we can never do this either, because I don't think that's fair.
Beth [00:35:25] The whole point of this committee, though, is to say, actually, the ends don't justify the means. People rioted at this Capitol because they believed that the ends would justify the means. We all love Liz Cheney right now because she has said, no, the means matter more than my personal ends. And so I would like us to adopt that as a pretty blanket proposition.
Sarah [00:35:47] I think that's fair. And I think it would be easier to defend if the extremist candidates were just extremists in the normal ways. Like, not in the democracy denying ways, but just like in the plain old normal way. And then I think that you could maybe justify this strategy a little bit more. But I do think it conflicts and makes difficult the work of the committee without a doubt. Without a doubt. So I understand their frustration.
Beth [00:36:16] I think extremists in the normal way is an opportunity for us to say a few words about this new forward party. I know lots of you wanted to hear about that. I'm sure it's something we'll come back to. I was thinking about this party, and I feel like I should be extremely enthusiastic about this. This should check a lot of boxes for me. And instead, I feel more curious about what they're going to do and what kind of impact it will have. But what you said triggered this for me because I was thinking about if this party is popping up in races where you have two candidates, maybe two ideologically pretty extreme candidates, like a very conservative versus very progressive match up. And they want to try to run someone and see the impact of that, that seems okay to me. It seems not okay to me if you have an election denier in that mix, then you have to really think about who am I taking votes from. On a national level, I don't think we need this because we're kind of getting it. That's the governance we were just talking about. The Joe Manchin led group in the Senate that is going to be able to get some of this legislation over the finish line, I don't see how that's materially different from what the forward party is talking about. I do think we could use that kind of disruption in mayoral races, school board races, races for the state house. In a county like mine, that's not going to elect a Democrat. Could you use a new kind of branding to get some new energy together? I think so. So I'm curious about what they'll do. I just hope they're really smart about it, recognizing the threat that exists out here. And I think the kind of people who are involved here, I think they will be. But we'll see.
Sarah [00:38:04] I'm excited by the names on the list. I think distinguishing between legislative goals and political goals, especially with inside of a new political party, I'm sure that the emphasis on political goals, I think you're right about legislation, but I think politically there's still a lot of room for this up and down the ballot. So I am, I'm with you. I'm interested and curious to see what they do next. It seems like people are hungry for this. Like, to break free from some of the polarization in our political environment, there needs to be some major disruption I think. And so I hope they find it. I do. We wanted to check in around the world. We had a couple big developments. Well, it was a big story. I'm not sure any big developments came from President Biden's trip to Saudi Arabia. He had said during his campaign that he was going to make the crown prince a pariah. But then he met with the crown prince, there was a fist bump. I love it when that stuff becomes the story for a couple days. Beth just rolled her eyes. You guys can't see that. But I think that's the appropriate response. I think that this was strongly motivated by the pressure of inflation and gas prices, which was a huge story. Continues to be a huge story, obviously was leading the headlines through much of the month of July. And so he goes over to Saudi Arabia. He needs the OPEC participants, particularly Saudi Arabia, to help relieve some of this pressure. I'm not sure if he came back with a deal, but I think these sort of short sighted write ups of these trips just like completely missed the point. We don't have any idea and probably won't for a long time what happened behind the scenes on this trip. Was there any momentum built? And it's like that's the name of the game in foreign policy. It's like these little baby steps, negotiations, this bill. We started this conversation and we worked on this with regards to Iran. And it's just like I think these trips become the story when it's so silly because they're just such a tiny piece of a much, much, bigger journey when it comes to foreign policy.
Beth [00:40:10] They're tiny, but then they're also huge because the symbolism in foreign policy is everything. And it is a big deal to give this kind of respect and legitimacy to a regime that murdered an American journalist, that had this kind of involvement in 9/11. So it's hard. I feel a sense of crisis right now in myself over foreign policy, to be honest with you, because I didn't care about the fist bump. I thought it was so dumb that that was the story. It was the visit that bothered me and whether this visit made sense at all. I feel the same way about Speaker Pelosi going to Taiwan. Like there's a part of me that understands we have to approach China carefully, that we must be in partnership as just giant countries on earth with China. But there's another piece of me that honestly would like to hear President Biden say, how dare you tell us where our leaders can go? How dare you threaten us over that? You guys hid important material, life saving information about the Corona virus. You interfere in countries all over the planet all the time. You steal our intellectual property. How dare you tell us where our Speaker of the House can go if she wants to?
Sarah [00:41:19] Also not for nothing you just let space trash fall to the earth in big firery masses.
Beth [00:41:25] Exactly. You propped up Vladimir Putin in Ukraine, like, how dare you tell us-- So and I would like to kind of say the same thing to Saudi Arabia, like, we will not come grovel to you about oil. Are you kidding me? But then I understand that I don't want to be an isolationist and that we have to afford greater respect to nations around the world if we are to get out of some of the tragic mistakes we've made in our foreign policy in the past. So I don't know.
Sarah [00:41:51] Well, it does seem like how dare you is the new sort of momentum surrounding Russia. There's been a lot of calls recently as the war in Ukraine continues to stretch on and on and truly tragic ways, to designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism. There's support for that in Congress. We'll see what happens with the Biden administration. I read some really interesting reporting that Ukraine just continues and continues to call for more artillery and more sophisticated weapons. But that there's concern like, well, if we pull people out to train them on these weapons, will that give Russia a leg up? Also, there's even conversations around our stockpile. Is this starting to affect our security by taking down our stockpile? And I just think it's becoming increasingly intractable, which means that it is going to be a loss for all sides. And I mean, Russia, Ukraine, the European Union, the United States, there is just not a scenario in which you reach this point in a war. And the way in particularly this war is being engaged in where we have winners or losers, if we ever did, in wars. But and this one in particular, it just feels like we are in it. I think we've abandoned really any talk of a negotiated peace settlement. And so it is just it's so awful and heartbreaking. And it feels like everybody's options are just shrinking.
Beth [00:43:25] Well, and it's the flip side of what I'm feeling about Saudi Arabia and China because as much as I ideologically think Russia is so wrong here-- and again, how dare it? And I agree it is a state sponsor of terror. At the same time, the world's food supply is so dependent on these regions just getting grain and corn exported and fertilizer. We can't starve the planet or a meaningful portion of the planet because Putin is wrong here and because what he's done is atrocious. And I just don't know where the line exists between being pushed around by Xi Jinping or Vladimir Putin and also being realistic about the options in front of us. And what is the guidepost? Is it the greatest good for the greatest number? Like, how do we ethically think through all of this? It's really-- I don't envy the policymakers on this. I don't.
Sarah [00:44:25] Well, I thought the best way for us to transition out of the brutal, messy human conflicts on earth which, listen, lead a lot of our headlines and news especially over the past month [inaudible] all the way into space with the James Webb telescopes and the photos we received during the month of July. I was not ready, Beth. I was not ready for these photos.
Beth [00:44:56] It's beautiful and strangely both connecting to everything and also disembodying to look at. If you can look at these photos and not have so many questions about who we are and what we're doing here, I really envy you.
Sarah [00:45:16] Okay, so listen, no shade to NASA. I know what they do is hard, and they're at it. And the scientists get so excited when they get these, like, little grainy pictures of things. They want us to be excited. And I'm like, oh, I'm so happy for you guys that you got this picture. And I don't see anything in it. And you say it's a big deal, I believe you. You are smarter than me when it comes to these stuff. I'm happy for you. And I thought that's what the photos from James Webb telescope are going to be. Like the little grainy where they're like, this is a big deal. And you're like, I believe you and I'm excited for you. That's not what we got. It's like, holy shit, Marvel has been right this whole time. Like, this is what it looked like for real? This is what it looks like? I was blown away. Just blown away. They are so beautiful. They are so high resolution. They are so far away. Like, I love it. Every new one I'm like, just put it like a steady drip right into my arm. I love these images. I think that they are life affirming. Like in this just incredibly magical way they make the word infinity so real. It just puts everything in the most amazing perspective. I cannot. I cannot with enough words for these images.
Beth [00:46:46] I feel both thrill wonder and real melancholy around them. It just creates a lot of feelings for me and a lot of questions. And I stare at them and I just think, who are we and what is this? And which part of it are we? And how are we so tiny and yet it all feels so big and overwhelming. It's just incredible. And I'm also just truly excited for everything that will be learned, because I know that there are people who feel a deep sense of conflict about spending this kind of money to see beautiful pictures from space.And I think, one, I do want to know everything that we can know. But secondarily, so much technology is being developed that will help people here on earth. I am confident of it. And I'm excited for that kind of discovery too.
Sarah [00:47:37] Those people can sit down. I'm sorry. Those people can sit down. I don't really care about their concerns about how much this cost. Spend it all NASA. Do you need more money? I will write you a check. It probably won't get us very far, but I'm happy to contribute because I think they're incredible. And I think you're right, they'll change everything. They already have. So loved that. I loved more photos from the James Webb telescope. All the photos from the James Webb telescope. Okay. We didn't get close to tackling all. Are you comfortable that we tackled July as best as humanly possible?
Beth [00:48:05] I think that we had the best July discussion available to us.
Sarah [00:48:11] Up next, we are going to talk about our personal Julys and what we did over the break. All right, Beth, when we left, you said you wanted July to not require you to be into places at certain times. You wanted July to back all the way off and feel a little freedom around your timeline. How'd it go?
Beth [00:48:42] I did not feel frantic in July, which was nice. I did not feel overscheduled. And that is enough for me. In that sense, I got some real relief, which was nice. I would say overall, July was not what I had planned. It has involved a tremendous amount of caregiving and some deep personal concern and stress and loss. But we had some Covid in my house, like on a more minor scale. Like, it has been a lot of things. July has for me the best of times and the worst of times. But I did not feel like where are the minutes going every single day? And that was really nice. And I want to carry that spirit forward. I'm going to be honest.
Sarah [00:49:26] I'm so happy for you. And that is key. There are nice long days in July. There are nice long days in July. So for anyone who has not been following along on my Instagram, I had quite a different July. My family and I went to Europe for about two and a half weeks. We kicked it off strong. We had our first three month follow up for Felix's post diagnosis diabetes, and we had a 6.0 A1C. If you know, you know this is a big deal. He's like mere points away from normal range for his A1C which shows basically how well you're managing your blood glucose. So that was an incredible way to kick off a month. We were so thrilled to get that news as we headed out of town. Celebrating Carlyl twice. So the day before we left for Europe and then the Saturday like right after we got back. It's because I'm not great at dates. Couple of times on our trip I messed up some things. Poor Nicholas missed his cooking class. We missed the catacombs. Nicholas was, like, you're not good at time. And I'm, like, but I am because I did all these things where we had to be in the places at the time. So like in some ways very good at time, but in some ways I missed some details like the fact that these concerts were at the beginning of July and the end of July when I thought they were at the beginning of June and the end of July.
[00:50:43] Anyway, it was fine. We had just an incredible, incredible trip. And it was hard. This was not a relaxing vacation, okay? But I was proud of myself. I didn't pack it so tight that we didn't have moments where it just felt like just beautiful. Just that awe. Like, it's just like the telescope. I love awe. I love standing in a medieval cathedral where-- that's what they did. They built churches so you could walk in and go, ooh, and feel small. And it's just, oh, it's the best feeling. And we ate incredible food and we saw-- just people warned me. Listen, let me tell you the sleeper hit of this trip. Look, I love Paris. It's my favorite place on earth. We ended the trip in Paris. I love Italy. I spent five weeks there in college, but people told me about Switzerland. You told me about Switzerland? I was not ready for Switzerland. It is a sleeper.
Beth [00:51:35] Wonderful. Yeah.
Sarah [00:51:36] I mean, it is a real sleeper. It's expensive. They will take your money in Switzerland. But you told me about Lucerne and we only were there for a couple hours. I'm so sad we were not there longer. It is the loveliest place.
Beth [00:51:51] Isn't it like almost vibrating with a loveliness in Lucerne? Like you feel it.
Sarah [00:51:58] It's like everything's the color, the flat, the how they get their water is.
Beth [00:52:02] It's like when Dorothy steps into the colorful us in Lucerne. That's exactly it.
Sarah [00:52:08] How do they get their water like that? I don't even understand it at all. It was beautiful. Everybody following along and rooting for us and giving us recommendations was so wonderful. We we really had the most amazing time. Europe was so lovely to us. And for anybody who's about to travel, I got a lot of like was it bad though? I don't even know how to say how like well the traveling mercies lined up for us. Our flights were fine. We had not a single canceled train. Everything was beautiful. We had like [Inaudible] which was not a big deal. We got in a taxi, we went to Milan. So we had a lovely, seamless, beautiful, amazing trip. It wasn't perfect because I had three children with me who dislike discomfort of any kind. So there was some whining. Obviously we had to manage diabetes along the way, but it really, really was special and beautiful and I'm just incredibly grateful. Came back to my birthday and all your loving on me. It was it was a lot. It was a lot. I was, like, crying a lot when I got back. Also because of the jetlag, but it was a really, really wonderful July. And but I'm so happy to be-- I'm ready to be back. I'm ready. I'm ready to be back. Two weeks is the expiration date for my children. I could travel longer, but let me tell you, the two weeks is their maximumtravel.
Beth [00:53:32] You were gone a long time. And it's a long time.
Sarah [00:53:34] I was gone a long time. It was and we did a lot in those time periods. So we're happy to be home, definitely ready for school to start. And the choir said, Amen. I know everybody out there is feeling that.
Beth [00:53:45] Except the teachers and we appreciate you so much. [Crosstalk].
Sarah [00:53:50] We love you much. The love you feel for teachers at the end of the summer is a love like no other. That's what what the Euston was actually singing about in that song.
Beth [00:53:58] That's right. You cruise into August 1st and you were like, there is no one that I value as much as people who work at schools.
Sarah [00:54:04] More than the teachers. No one. No one. Literally no one. All right. We love you guys. We are so happy to be back here with you. We will have our last episode of the Now What Series on Friday, and then we'll be back with our regularly scheduled program next week. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
Beth [00:54:29] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
Sarah [00:54:34] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.
Beth [00:54:40] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:54:45] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sarah Greenup. Julie Hasler. Helen Handly. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. The Kriebs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.
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