January 6th Hearings: A Man of Honor Would’ve Conceded

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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January 6th Hearings

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TRANSCRIPT


Rep. Liz Cheney [00:00:00] An honorable man receiving the information and advice that Mr. Trump received from his campaign experts and his staff. A man who loved his country more than himself would have conceded this election. Indeed, we know that a number of President Trump's closest aides urged him to do so. This committee will address all of these issues in greater detail in the coming weeks. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.  

Sarah [00:00:35] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:36] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:38] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:53] Thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. If you're new here, sarah and I are longtime friends who spend two episodes a week trying to make sense of the news in America through the lens of all of our life experiences, which include practicing law and being moms, and living in Kentucky, and devoting ourselves to lots of research about what's going on. As we devote ourselves to that research, this week, we've spent a lot of time with the House Select Committee to investigate the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol. Sarah has been on Instagram live during those hearings, I've been live tweeting them. The next hearing will be on Tuesday, next week. I would tell you the time, but the select committee takes time a little liberally.  

Sarah [00:01:37] They keep changing it, y'all. So rude.  

Beth [00:01:40] So we will update you on our social media channels closer to time of that hearing. But we hope you'll join us live if you can. If you cannot, we will recap in a number of ways, including through our newsletter. We hope that you'll sign up for that at Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. And we just welcome you to what we think is one of the best corners of the Internet to think deeply and connect with others and hope that you'll subscribe to the podcast and spend some more time here with us.  

Sarah [00:02:04] The final primetime hearing of the House Select Committee will be Thursday, June 23rd, and we will be together with our community on Hot Mic. If you would like to join us there, it was an incredibly empowering, I would say, way to watch the first primetime hearing. We watched on Hot Mic, to have everybody in the chat asking questions, supporting each other, answering each other's questions, and just know that you're not watching it alone and feeling sort of overwhelmed and despondent, that you're with this community of people that is invested in our democracy and the outcome of the committee. So if you'd like to join us, we will be on Hot Mic on June 23rd.  

Beth [00:02:54] So we're going to spend the first segment of our show today talking about the first hearing that took place on Monday. The second will be about Thursday's hearing. Outside of politics, we'll hear from my daughter, Ellen, whose seventh birthday is coming up because we all need a little bit of levity. So, Sarah, Monday's hearing was really making the case that Donald Trump knew he lost the election. I wonder what you thought was most interesting or surprising as you watched that hearing.  

Sarah [00:03:21] That hearing packed in the blockbuster moments, even with their star witness, Bill Stepien, backing out at the last minute because his wife was in labor, which is a valid excuse. So they had to use his video deposition. And I was so impressed with how quickly they pivoted and how quickly they'd be like, clip two, clip three. And they were impactful clips. I thought him-- and this is his campaign manager, okay, telling him on election night, you cannot go out and declare victory. There is no victory to declare. The votes have not been counted. It would be premature. Now, Bill Stepien is doing that reasonable dance. So in the deposition, he'd be like, he disagreed with me. And I'm like, we all know how he acts when he's mad, Bill. Like, he was probably screaming. He was [Inaudible] slightly cussing. Put a pin in that because we're going to get to that in Thursday's hearing. But him just saying, Jason Miller saying, all these people say we told him you should not go out on election night and declare victory, did it anyway. Went out there, declared victory when the votes had not been counted when he had been briefed on the fact that these mail in votes would take a while to count. Also, even going back in time to when people were like, stop talking about the mail in voting, you're hurting your own campaign. And he rejected that advice as well. So I kind of had this moment because they started like way back in April of 2020 where he started talking about if I lose, it's because they stole it. And I'm like, dang, April, April? And then from April all the way in the first part of the hearing through election night, to just say he was prepared to do this from the beginning, he rejected all advice, all invitation to accept reality, and went out there and declared victory anyway.  

Beth [00:05:18] The first hearing really laid out, here's everything we're going to show you over the rest of these hearings. And I felt like Monday's hearing and Thursday's have both been like multi-media legal briefs where they're saying, we're going to cite all of our sources now. We're going to let you know exactly how it is that we've reached the conclusions that we've reached. And I think the choice in Monday's hearing to use, as best I can tell, only Republican witnesses or non-partisan officeholders to tell this story was incredibly effective. There is no way that you can watch this without realizing that's a Trump appointee. That's Jason Miller. Jason Miller was telling people that the election was a fraud and now here he is in front of the-- when he's under oath, he's willing to describe exactly how all of this went down. If I were Mark Meadows, I would seriously be rethinking my decision not to cooperate with this committee as a witness. Because having his story told through other people is making him look terrible. And I really like the way every time she speaks, Representative Cheney is quoting a conservative news outlet, a conservative editorial board, the Federalist Society. Like, she is taking this case to Republicans to say, here's what we're supposed to be and here's what we were during this time period. And there is no spinning it.  

Sarah [00:06:42] Yeah, I agree it up to and including having the a representative from the Fox News decision desk up in front of Congress saying like this is how we came to the decision to call Arizona. I would have liked to hear more from him about the pressure on him and how he got let go. But I thought, no, we're not putting on Fox News-- who cares?  I mean, I care, but we're not putting Fox News on trial here. We're putting the hearings out to gather evidence on this plot coming from former President Trump. And a plot it was. I mean, it is hard to really take in how different--  what he was hearing from the people around him was from what he was saying and what those same people were saying. He was coming out and making it sound like-- I remember at the time thinking, well, he's just got all these people telling him what he wants to hear. I think I probably said that on this podcast. He was there just hearing what he wants to hear. He won't have anybody tell him the truth. And now it's like, no, not actually true.  

[00:07:48] Lots of people were telling him the truth, people from the Justice Department, his own attorney general, his acting attorney general. I thought Donoghue from the Justice Department coming and saying, "I walked him through the guy with the truck. I walked him through the suitcase under the table. I walked him through every conspiracy theory." And everyone would be like, okay, well, what about this next one? And it was like, oh, my god! He had so many people telling him the truth over and over and over again. You lost. There is no truth, there is no reality found in these claims of fraud. In particular, Bill Barr, whose testimony just never, never, stops being shocking-- I don't know why I'm shocked at this point, but where was like he's detached from reality and he would not listen to what anybody was telling him. And he just kept looking for people to tell him what he wanted to hear, which is how we ended up with and I quote, "Clearly inebriated Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell and team Rudy.  

Beth [00:08:44] Bill Barr has made quite a decision here. And I don't know if it is sour grapes or strategy or hubris or some combination of those things. He could have responded to the committee's questions as blandly as some of his colleagues did, but he decided to allow them to make very viral clips. He decided to use the word bullshit repeatedly. He decided on his own to bring up Dinesh D'Souz's movie, like, he made blockbuster moments for them. And Bill Barr is smart enough and has been around long enough to know what he was doing.  

Sarah [00:09:18] He seems to be enjoying himself.  

Beth [00:09:20] He does seem to be enjoying himself. That's why I say it might just be hubris, like it might just be that he thinks he's smarter than everyone else. He did the country this great service by trying to hold the line here, whatever. I don't know what his psychology around it is, and I don't really care, but it was so effective. And you can tell this committee knew what they had in these clips with him.  

Sarah [00:09:43] Well, and I just loved the way he did this and definitely Chris Dodd from Fox News did this, which was even if some of this election fraud was true, it's still not going to get in there. Even if every claim team Rudy brought to his desk was quite true, you're still not going to get there. You still don't have the votes. You still lost. And it was just the the absolute refusal to take in any of those facts, any of those realities. Yeah. And I have to believe that at this point, the way he treated Bill Barr, the way he treats everyone, it's like, how can we never have a conversation when he's like, this person is the worst of the worst of the worst. Yeah. But you hired him, friend. At which point do we start talking about his judgment in that every single person he's ever hired who no longer works for him is just a fraudster of the top echelon. Well, then, why are you so dumb that you keep hiring all these these people who lie and are terrible and can't do anything right? But,he did the same thing to Bill Barr. And I think you have to, if you're Bill Barr, just be like, well, fine, then what do I have to lose here by throwing you all the way under the bus because you sure as hell didn't hesitate to throw me under the bus?  

Beth [00:10:54] He did it to his own daughter after they showed Invanka in the first hearing that came out with the statement about how she was checked out by it then. Do you notice in the speaking patterns of the folks who worked closely with Trump, like, just an inability to say almost anything very directly? I can feel from those folks that they've been tiptoeing around an explosive personality for a long time.  

Sarah [00:11:19] Yeah. And and also just in that deposition environment where you're trying to be so careful. I mean, Jared had a little bit of that swagger. Like, I thought they were whining, like, he was-- but I would say the second most emotional after Bill Barr. But you can see it on Ivanka's face. Everybody is just scared of misstepping and scared of saying something they're not supposed to say and giving the committee more ammunition, it feels like. And I'm like, for what guys? What are you trying to salvage at this point? That's what I just can't quite understand.  

Beth [00:11:53] Well, I think a lot of them are probably just grappling with their involvement in all of this because they're not a lot of witnesses with totally clean hands here. But some of the lawyers gave the proper advice, especially the the DOJ people. I thought that Donoghue's testimony was incredibly effective, as you said, just the specificity of how he examined all those claims and rebutted them. I also thought it was very effective to combine with Chris Stirewalt. And he was the Fox News decision desk person who now works at The Dispatch who was so rightfully and entertaining.  

Sarah [00:12:27] So good.  

Beth [00:12:27]  I thought he was having the time of his life to explaining how elections work. You can tell he loves the job that he does. He loves the data. He loves that Fox called Arizona before everybody else. He loves it. But I thought it was really effective to have with him Ben Ginsberg, who is this longtime like Republican Bush versus Gore lawyer. Just taking apart the case on behalf of the Trump team that there was no possible way that any of the claims they were putting forth in court had evidence to support them. And he analyzed them. He said, "I've been through all 60 plus claims. There's no there, there."  

Sarah [00:13:07] Yeah, there's no there, there. So that's what the committee did, right? So they wave all the way back. He started talking about this before the election. There was quite a bit of time spent on election night and people telling him you should not declare victory. The votes have not been  count, explained sort of the red mirage and how that happened. And then we pivoted in the second half of the committee to these election fraud claims, and we walked through all the people in his own administration and Department of Justice telling him [Inaudible] true, how they didn't hold up in court on these 61 cases or whatever it is. Then at the very end, I thought they buried the lead a bit. Here we get this little package from one of the investigative teams again that says, well, the fraud claims weren't only meant to try to overturn the election. The fraud claims were also raising millions and millions-- $250 million. $100 million in the first week after the election, they were sending at 1.25 emails a day to small dollar donors about the election fraud and asking them to contribute to the election defense fund, which-- fun fact-- didn't exist.  

Beth [00:14:12] It was an interesting choice to be like BT dubs, it was also a con. And it really felt that way. Like, I sat up straight in my chair. What, the fund didn't exist? What, they doled out this money to "insider charities"  like the Trump Hotel collection.  

Sarah [00:14:31] And the event strategies, the company that organized the January 6th rally. That's when I went, like, "Oh my god! You were raising money from these people to spend on this rally to basically  fund an insurrection." I mean, there was a literal gasp.  

Beth [00:14:50] And knowing that the committee has analyzed it to be able to say precisely there were days when small dollar donors to Trump were receiving 25 emails, crying out for funds to help him fight this corrupt election. And the money was not spent in litigation. And we kind of knew that because there was reporting that he wouldn't pay Rudy Giuliani. So we sort of knew. But to have it put together this way was really striking.   

Sarah [00:15:22] Well, and I just think they always wrap so smartly, because I don't know if I knew what to expect with these hearings. I definitely did not know to what degree they were going to focus on the events of January 6th, and the people there and how they ended up-- I don't know what I envisioned. I am pleasantly surprised that it is this very comprehensive case being made that Donald Trump was behind everything. But no matter how far we-- or we go back to April 2020, no matter how complicated these pieces they're trying to pull together with the fundraising and the election night and the fraud claims and the legal cases. I think it's so smart that at every hearing they're like, "And this is what the people on the ground that day said." Like, just so you don't think like we're on this partizan pursuit to go after him, let us every time pull it back and say and this is how it connected to the events that we're investigating right here, the events of January 6th. So they go to people saying the election was stolen, dominion voting. And they they literally have video of the people on the ground that day talking about what they've just spent 2 hours examining. It's so, so, smart.  

Beth [00:16:34] And it doesn't cease to shock me. As much this as I've taken in those moments when they focus in on an individual not shocked by what they say. 

Sarah [00:16:46] But the WiFi signal. Oh, the WiFi signal.  

Beth [00:16:49] That was especially true in Thursday's hearing, which we will discuss right after the quick break. Sarah, I didn't know what to expect for Thursday's hearing, which was billed as being about the pressure campaign on Mike Pence. But I was really genuinely surprised by the extent of the threat to the vice president's life. And especially that footage you were mentioning of people who were actually there on the ground and the words they were using and the learning that a confidential FBI informant from the Proud Boys said that they absolutely would have killed Mike Pence if given the chance.  

Sarah [00:17:37] Or Nancy Pelosi or anybody else they could have gotten their hands on. Yeah. I mean, this day was definitely focused on Mike Pence and John Eastman. I feel like those are two of what we talked the most about outside of President Trump. And it was interesting the way they laid out the timeline of like, okay, so first we talk about these paths to basically overturning the election. And when we can't get it to go this way, well, what about this legal theory that Mike Pence can basically just pick the president. I  also thought it was so smart the whole time they said that. Like, not certify the elections and send back the rules. That they were arguing that Mike Pence, the vice president, could select the president of the next president of the United States. I thought that was very smart. And so showing how like, okay, well, first Eastman comes and is like just lobbing it out there. Well, what about this? No. Okay, well, what about if we just dial it back and send it back to the States for them to continue to get-- no.  

[00:18:30] Okay. Well, then what if he just certified the results right there and picked the president? No. It is like this, like, consistent-- the way he would like warm-- Well, this isn't good enough. Can we try this? As if it's like a campaign strategy. As if it's a marketing strategy. Well, like, this-- let's A/B test this. Well, we're A/B testing the constitution, good sir. But that definitely is what it felt like. It felt like that doesn't work. So let's try this. Well, that doesn't work then. Let's try this. And it's like, again, you're not talking about the election protection fund that doesn't exist, in which email campaign will hit the hardest. You're talking about our Constitution and our laws down to like they were arguing about, well, if it goes to the Supreme Court, would you get seven or nine? Who would disagree with you? Does it matter? Does it matter if it's seven or nine? Like it just-- wow. Wow.   

Beth [00:19:21] But then he concluded it was nine.  I mean, I thought that was the most compelling thing. That as Eastman is doing all of this, there is documentary evidence and verbal testimony that he himself would finally concede.  I mean, that's not good.  

Sarah [00:19:38] It's probably unconstitutional. Oh, my gosh. I also thought this hearing was interesting and in parts look a little dense and hard to follow because they also had to go through like the theory itself. Like, is there anything there? Is there any there, there to this idea that even the vice president could send the certifications back to the states to reexamine? Although, the best part of that was when the vice president's legal counsel, Jacob, was like, throughout our history no one has done this. No one has done this. And I was so, so glad that they immediately brought up the 2000 election results and then eventually showed a clip from former Vice President Al Gore, because I thought, how dare you  even start to talk about this theory and start to talk about this? When Al Gore stood up there and certified the results of the 2000 election. I did not know that was Mike Pence's when he just came to Congress and to watch him like gavel down objections. I think it was a powerful moment to draw those ties of history together and to think about sort of the bipartisan impact of doing the right thing. Al Gore wasn't thinking when he did the right think that a congressman from Indiana was watching who might one day be in his position. I mean, you never know, right? You just never know.  

Beth [00:20:58] You never know. And then it was so fascinating to hear that the response from John Eastman was, "No, Al Gore didn't have this power and Kamala Harris won't have this power in 2024, but you should take it today." It really sounded to me like Eastman's theory was just you probably don't have the power, but you should take it and see what happens.  

Sarah [00:21:16] Yes. Absolutely.  

Beth [00:21:17] It's worth the risk for you to take it.  

Sarah [00:21:19] Yeah. Worth the risk for you, Mr.. I think I'll take that pardon now. Send an email to Rudy Giuliani. Think I'll go ahead and take that pardon, if you don't mind.  

Beth [00:21:28] That was a stunning moment to me, honestly, when they revealed not just that he asked for a pardon, but the way he said it. Like, he'd been mulling it over and decided that, well, yes, in fact, that would look like plan.  

Sarah [00:21:41] And then you had to watch him sit there and take the Fifth Amendment over and-- 

Beth [00:21:48]  Over 100 times.  

Sarah [00:21:49] Even the way he said it. I was like, make him say the whole sentence. Where he was just like, "Fifth, fifth, fifth." Oh, my god!  

Beth [00:21:55] Yeah. Representative Pete Aguilar, who led this hearing, said that he took the Fifth Amendment 100 times. And I think that combined with some of his statements about how violence is just part of our history and knowing that on January 6th, after the Capitol had been attacked and they're back in session, John Eastman starts e-mailing Mike Pence's team with more legal theory.  

Sarah [00:22:23] I cannot. It's not too late.  

Beth [00:22:24] I just was stunned. I was stunned.  

Sarah [00:22:27] You just spent 4 hours in an undisclosed location running for your life from an angry mob that wants to hang you, but you want to try one more time? And he never stoped then. He kept emailing and calling people. And obviously that's what the next hearing is going to be about, is the pressure campaign on the states. It's mind blowing to me. It is mind blowing to me that the lengths at which this one man with the support of the president, the most powerful man in the country, were willing to go no matter the fact that person after person after person was telling them you lost, it's illegal to try this. You lost. It's illegal to try this.  

Beth [00:23:07] A point that I hope they make at some point, though, is that John Eastman had a lot of power in this situation because he had the president's ear. But these actions that feel so shocking as we hear about them after the fact are how a lot of the American public has taken this event in.  That the consequences of it are all kind of theoretical, may be worth it. Maybe it's not the right thing to do, but let's try it anyway. Oh, it actually wasn't that bad. Let's get back to talking about what I want to talk about.  

Sarah [00:23:38] Yeah.  

Beth [00:23:39] And so, John Eastman, I think is in some ways very detached from reality as an individual and in other ways a really important mirror on how we've dealt with January six as a society, and I think an indicator of why these hearings are so terribly important. I wondered, Sarah, what you thought about Judge Michael Luttig, who was clearly there not just to talk about his role in advising the vice president, but to put some gravity around how serious all of this is and was.  

Sarah [00:24:12] It was hard at first because it was so careful and deliberate. I mean, we're talking like four to five seconds before he started, which is a lot if you're like me and listen at things at 1.5 speed. But, I mean, you could hear his deliberateness. You could hear that he was trying to convey the gravity of the situation and that the threat still persists. I thought that was his most impactful statement as a witness. It's at the end where he said people think that the threat is no longer there and that is not true because they are broadcasting the fact that they will try to do this again, the former president and his allies. And so I thought that part was really impactful. But at first I was like, come on, you guys have been so careful and considerate about the TV worthiness of these witnesses and how to play it out. It felt like a stumble at first, I'm not going to lie. He picked up a little bit, but at first I was like, he spent literally 2 minutes repeating her question at one point. And I was like, I can't. I cannot do this with you, my friend.  

Beth [00:25:14] I did not do a ton of appellate work when I was practicing. But when I worked with appellate lawyers, I always had that same sense of, like, could you just spit it out. But the care of people who work in legal briefs is tremendous. And I interpreted all of his testimony as someone who was creating a transcript more than doing a performance for a live audience. And that was hard because you're right, they have been so TV focused. But I think this ended up working in part because of the end of the hearing when he gave a really, I thought, touching summary of why he was there and why he is so fearful of this happening again because of how candid Trump and his supporters are being. And I really liked that he said Trump or his anoined successor in the 2024 election. I thought that was very important. And the other thing that I thought made it eventually work were some some pretty touching moments, like when he said to one of the lawyers for the committee who was his clerk, that it was his honor to have him as his clerk. That doesn't happen every day. I thought that was really beautiful when he said it was just a tremendous honor beyond words to be in front of the committee. I thought that was really lovely. So those more human moments I thought really kind of brought it back around. I agree with you. At first I was like, what are we doing? But then it became clear to me, this is some heft and this is to reach a different part of the audience. I thought there were lots of moments where you could see that this committee understands that lots of different groups are watching and we have to reach those different groups in different ways.  

Sarah [00:26:52] Well, and John Eastman was his law clerk. So I've got to assume there's a certain amount of like feeling weirdly responsible for this, "Legal scholar" you unleashed on the world.  

Beth [00:27:05]  And grieving maybe? Yeah. 

Sarah [00:27:06]  Yeah. I also think we can't miss-- we spend a lot of time on Eastman. But I do want to spend some time on this phone call that former President Trump had with Vice President Pence. And the families in there, everybody's in there and he basically starts screaming at him over the phone. And he calls him a wimp and he also calls him the P word, according to a deposition. And then he goes out, he tweets, he risk his life and he tweets, he tells the crowd, he tells other people, well, if he gets what's coming to him. And I just thought, well, that's it, right? It's not only that he was willing to lie. It's not only that he was willing to cheat. It's that he was literally willing to make a human sacrifice on the altar of his own ego and his own desire to win. It's not like he wants to win to help the American people. He wants to win because he can't be a loser. And it's like you were willing to risk this man's life in order to make that happen.  

Beth [00:28:11] I was also interested in the tactics. So they show where Trump is trying to get people to make the legal case to Pence's team. And that didn't work. And then he brings Pence in and says, like, you got to do this. I'm not going to be your friend anymore if you don't do this. So there's kind of the softer personal pressure, and then it turns to that anger, and then it turns to directing the weapon of the crowd at Pence.  And I think that that sequence of events and that way that you see Trump just relentlessly pursuing a goal in service of only himself is so consistent with everything you know about Trump from the rest of his life. And I'm talking before he ever ran for president. That it's just hard for me to understand the persistent belief on the part of some people that Trump is actually a person of integrity. And I really liked the way that Liz Cheney ended by saying a man of honor would have conceded. And I thought, that is it. That is it in one sentence.  

Sarah [00:29:13] Yep. He didn't concede. He just he just broke open our whole history, this whole history of people doing this orderly transition of power. And I just don't think we spent enough time saying, like, he was the first person to do this. He was the first person to refuse to concede a presidential election. And I don't think we spent enough time on that. I don't think we spent enough time on the way anyone who crosses him, any person who leaves his administration, he throws directly under the bus in the biggest way possible and we thought that the tweets were bad enough. But they laid out that he did to Mike Pence today in this hearing is just abhorrent.  

Beth [00:29:59] Even though today's hearing had a lengthy legal discussion, I hope you will still watch it yourselves if you've not already. Part of what's encouraging about that lengthy legal discussion is that it is a reminder of what this committee can do, because if you continue to be watching with a sense of powerlessness, nothing's going to happen. That was a reminder to me, no, this committee can legislate. They can clarify the Electoral Count Act, which Judge Luttig described as a work in progress. And he really pointedly said to the committee, Congress needs to do something about this. And this committee has the power to take that back to Congress. So I just feel very encouraged by these hearings, as difficult as they are to take in. I find them inspiring as a citizen, and I hope you will too.  

Sarah [00:30:45] I do want to say one thing to the importance of the hearings. I think you're right. I think there's some people that have taken these in and saying it was theoretical and it went okay. I think there's the other side of the aisle that says, like, I know how bad they are. I don't need to watch this. I watched it. I was traumatized. I already know that Republicans are terrible and I don't need to watch these hearings. And you guys, hear me say that's not the point. That's not the point because I think the power of this committee is that they are showing that there were many,  many, Republicans who were trying to do the right thing and it was Donald Trump. Now, look, we can get into who empowered Donald Trump. And I don't disagree with you, but I just think it's really important that because of the the the danger of January 6th, the danger it will happen again, we have to come together. We have to see that there are some things that we agree on as Democrats and Republicans. And this cannot be a hearing on how terrible Republicans are. Not only it can't be that and it isn't that.  

[00:31:51] And so if you think that's what's happening and that's why you're not watching, because you're already convinced. I'm begging you to watch because every American needs to see this case laid out very clearly, because it's something we should all be having conversations about. It's something that there will be conversations about and you want to be informed about and informed in. So I just I've heard that and I know how bad it is, I don't need to watch. And I just want to say that like, that's not what's happening here. It's not this traumatic rendition of January six over and over again every day. It's a very different thing that's happening and everybody owes it to themselves to watch.  

Beth [00:32:27] I think that is so important to me. The story of Trump's presidency, and especially how we got to January 6th, is the story of a lot of people taking themselves too seriously, having that feeling of, I already know everything I need to know. I know how this is going to turn out. I know what can possibly happen, what can't possibly happen. A lot of people taking themselves too seriously and not taking the situation in front of them seriously enough. And that is a trap that it is so easy to fall in as an American citizen. And these hearings also have inspired an incredible sense of humility in me, recognizing that I tracked all this very closely when it was happening. And I don't know the half of it yet. I don't know the half of it. So please make time somewhere in your life for these hearings. And thank you for making time to be here with us. And next up, we are just going to completely change gears and bring it home to just life and levity. My daughter Ellen is going to join me to talk about turning seven today.  

[00:33:34] Ellen Silvers, welcome to Pantsuit Politics.  

Ellen [00:33:37] Hi.  

Beth [00:33:38] This podcast comes out on June 17th. Why is that day so special to us?  

Ellen [00:33:43] It's my birthday.  

Beth [00:33:44] It is your birthday. What birthday is it for you? How old will you be?  

Ellen [00:33:49] I will be turning seven. 

Beth [00:33:53] Seven. Now, you told me that I could not put seven on your cake, that I couldn't get a seven candle, that your invitation could not say, come to Ellen's seventh birthday. Why did you tell me that?  

Ellen [00:34:02] I don't like numbers.  

Beth [00:34:05] You don't like any number?  

Ellen [00:34:08] No, not really.  

Beth [00:34:09] What do you like?  

Ellen [00:34:11] I like letters.  

Beth [00:34:12] You like letters?  

Ellen [00:34:13] Letters are way better. I like letters because I'm a big fan of reading and spelling. I like to write too.  

Beth [00:34:24] What is the theme for your birthday this year?  

Ellen [00:34:26] Charlotte's Web, which is one of my favorite chapter books.  

Beth [00:34:30] What do you like about Charlotte's Web?  

Ellen [00:34:32] My favorite animal is a pig, and there's a pig in it.  And I'm also very fond of spiders.  

Beth [00:34:41] You're fond of spiders?  

Ellen [00:34:42] Yeah.  

Beth [00:34:43] Ellen, if someone is listening, who's also seven, who's never read Charlotte's Web, what would you tell them? Do you recommend it?  

Ellen [00:34:52] Yes, I would recommend it with a grown up maybe because I read it with my teacher, but I also did some of the reading. But, yeah, it's a really good book.  

Beth [00:35:10] You love to read, right? And I know you wanted to talk about the reading journal that you recently got from our friend aunt Boggle[Sp].  

Ellen [00:35:17] Yeah, I loved that reading book. And because I get to talk about how I feel about books and I usually don't really talk about that to people because I usually just talk to it by myself.  

Beth [00:35:35] Oh, so this gives you a place to kind of--  

Ellen [00:35:37] It gives me a place to talk about it.  

Beth [00:35:39] Share some of what you feel after you've read a book. Books create a lot of feelings, don't they?  

Ellen [00:35:43] Yeah. Like mad, angry, sad, happy.  

Beth [00:35:49] Well, I've also noticed that your sister Jane is very jealous.  

Ellen [00:35:52] She's mad because I got an early one, but it actually comes out in August and Jane didn't get to get one.  

Beth [00:36:00] So we preordered one for Jane. They come out in August. We'll put a link for all of you who have little readers who would enjoy this too. What else are your tips for readers, Ellen? You love your Kindle, right?  

Ellen [00:36:12] Yes, that's my most prized possession. I have a tip for young readers like me. Maybe try sounding out the words and then go to college probably.  

Beth [00:36:26] Go to college probably?  

Ellen [00:36:27] Definitely go to college.  

Beth [00:36:28] You are a very good reader. So I would listen to Ellen's tips if I were anybody.  

Ellen [00:36:33] Yes, you have to listen to my tips if you want to read books.  

Beth [00:36:36] Well, what are some other interesting facts about Ellen Silvers?  

Ellen [00:36:40] I like animals.  

Beth [00:36:41] What instrument do you play?  

Ellen [00:36:43] I play the harp.  

Beth [00:36:44] How did you start playing the harp?  

Ellen [00:36:46] I read a Pete the Cat book, and there is a harp in that book. And I was like, what's that instrument called? And I was like, "Hey, mom, I want to play the harp," at a random dinner time where I was just reading Pete the Cat.  

Beth [00:37:03] And do you enjoy playing your harp?  

Ellen [00:37:05] Yes, I love playing my harp. It's a great exercise for my fingers, but it really, really, hurts.  

Beth [00:37:14] What's your favorite song you've played on the harp so far?  

Ellen [00:37:17] So far I feel like the waltz and mountain climbing.  

Beth [00:37:21] And do those hurt your fingers too? Is it just getting used to the strings that hurts?  

Ellen [00:37:26] Yeah, kind of. It just stretches them out.  

Beth [00:37:31] Yeah. Your teacher told us when you started that it would be hard on your fingers for a while.   

Ellen [00:37:37] Yeah. But once I get into it all the way, I'll probably do a little better. And I'm doing a practice chart where you practice for, like, a week, and you have to color in or put a sticker or a stamp on that square. And it shows that you've practiced.  

Beth [00:38:01] So, Ellen, I was thinking about how we have a lot of teachers who listen to the podcast and they might like to hear what you thought about your first grade teacher.  

Ellen [00:38:13] My first grade teacher was probably my favorite teacher that I've had. I also very much like Ms. fisher and Ms. hudson.  

Beth [00:38:24] Your kindergarten teachers?  

Ellen [00:38:24] Uh-huh.  

Beth [00:38:26] What did you like about your teacher this year?  

Ellen [00:38:29] She was very kind and she usually didn't get super angry. And I just really liked her.  

Beth [00:38:41] You know what I noticed this year? I noticed that you often came home and you told me that if you had some kind of challenge during the day, that you would ask your teacher if you could speak to her privately. And she always gave you sort of a strategy to deal with it. And I thought that was really cool that you that you trusted her and that she listened to you like that.  

Ellen [00:39:03] Yeah.  

Beth [00:39:04] I thought that was pretty special. Is there anybody else that you really admire right now? Who's somebody that you'd like to be more like maybe when you get older?  

Ellen [00:39:15] Nobody really. I kind of want to just stay myself.  

Beth [00:39:19] I think that's a pretty good answer, Ellen. As you think about what you want your seventh year of life to be like, does anything come to mind for you? Do you have any goals for your seventh year?  

Ellen [00:39:29] No.  

Beth [00:39:31] No, you just want to have fun.  

Ellen [00:39:32] I just want to live.  

Beth [00:39:34] You just want to live? I mean, look, that's a good level of expectation.  Are you excited about going to summer camp?  

Ellen [00:39:40] Yeah, I'm really excited.  

Beth [00:39:42] What are you most looking forward to about being at camp?  

Ellen [00:39:47]  I'm really excited for just being on my own, kind of, without mommy and daddy. That would make me happy.  

Beth [00:40:00] Aaw.  

Ellen [00:40:01] But I still like being with you, Mommy.  

Beth [00:40:04] You know what, Ellen? I want to tell you that I'm really proud of you for that answer. I'm excited that you want to be on your own because I know you're capable of it. And I love you and I trust you. And I think you're going to have such a good week. And I can't wait to hear all about it. So I want to tell you one more thing.  

Ellen [00:40:22] Yes.  

Beth [00:40:24] Your birthday is always a really special day for me, too, because it's a day that I get to celebrate being your mom, which I think is pretty fun.  

Ellen [00:40:31] And you want to put a brick on my head?  

Beth [00:40:33] No, I don't want to put a brick on your head. I like you growing. 

Ellen [00:40:36] You used to want to put a break on my head and make me smaller. 

Beth [00:40:41] No. Here's the truth, Ellen. Here's the truth. I loved you as a little cuddly baby. And I loved you as a fun little toddler running around everywhere. And I loved you in kindergarten. And I loved you in first grade. And I'm going to love you in second grade. And I'm going to love you in college, if you go to college.  

Ellen [00:40:59] I will go to college.  

Beth [00:41:00] I think you probably will too, but you don't have to. But if you do that, I will love you then.  

Ellen [00:41:03] Why would I not go to college?  

Beth [00:41:05] I'll love you when you're a grandma. I'll just love you your whole life.  

Ellen [00:41:09] When I'm a grandma, you'll probably almost be dead.  

Beth [00:41:12] Well, that's probably true. I hope I get a lot of years with you because you're pretty fun.  

Ellen [00:41:16] But you'll still be a ghost.  

Beth [00:41:18] Is there anything else you'd like to tell everyone?  

Ellen [00:41:22] Nope.  

Beth [00:41:23] Okay. Well, thank you for joining me today. I hope this was fun for you.  

Ellen [00:41:25] You're welcome.  

Beth [00:41:26] Thank you, Ellen Silvers, for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Thank you to all of you for spending time here with us. We are honored by your presence and your thinking and are so looking forward to you joining the conversation. We want to hear how you have taken in these hearings. We hope you'll tune in with us again next Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you. Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast production.Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:41:59] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:42:05] Our show is listener-supported, special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:42:09] Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliot. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.  

[00:42:26] The Kriebs. Lauri LaDow. Lily McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:42:44] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  




Domestic policy, Candidates and ElectionsMaggie Penton1 Comment