Joe Rogan and Alcohol Culture

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Episode Resources

THE JOE ROGAN SITUATION

ALCOHOL USE IN AMERICA

Transcript

Beth [00:00:00] And like, to me, the reason that this is such a thing, as situation capital is, really has nothing to do with how we feel about podcasting as an industry or what Joe Rogan does. It is, I think, that people are tired of feeling judged about COVID. You know, and in my community, I think a lot about this idea where, you know, people are saying, "I just want things to be normal again." But here things are pretty normal. You can have a really normal day here. And I think what people mean when they say, I'm just ready for things to get back to normal is I can have a pretty normal day and not feel judged about it. 

Sarah [00:00:43] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:44] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:46] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Sarah [00:01:02] Thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics, where we try to take a different approach to the news. Today, that looks like tackling two topics that we know are going to generate a lot of feelings and discussions. First, we're going to talk about the Joe Rogan situation capitalists at Spotify. Then we're going to get personal and talk about alcohol and the culture surrounding it here in the United States. Outside of politics, we're going to talk about some new therapy I've been getting. 

Beth [00:01:27] I'm excited about that. Before we dive in, we have a commemoration to share. We love to commemorate things here at Pantsuit Politics. And this Saturday, February, 5th, is the bookiversary of our first book, I Think You're Wrong but I'm listening. A guide to Grace-Filled Political Conversations. It's its third birthday. It's three years old now. 

Sarah [00:01:45] Wow, it's bananas! 

Beth [00:01:48] And we would love for you to leave a review on Amazon if you could. If you haven't read it, we would love for you to pick up a copy. Check it out. We read the audiobook ourselves, if you wanted to listen to it. It is such a blessing. Just this week, I peeked at Twitter and a meteorologist from Louisville, Kentucky, said that if you only read one book this year, it should be this one. It's so good. 

Sarah [00:02:09] Oh, that's so nice! 

Beth [00:02:09] I'm really happy. Thank you, Hannah, for that cheer on Twitter. 

Sarah [00:02:13] So, yes, if you want to help celebrate our bookiversary, that would be great. And up next, we're going to talk about Spotify and Joe Rogan. Okay, in early January, this is how this all started. A coalition of medical science, public health professionals, they published an open letter to Spotify calling on Spotify to immediately establish a clear and public policy to moderate misinformation on its platform. And they specifically cited one interview Joe Rogan did with a doctor, using that term loosely, and several other incidences of what they, you know, pointed out as misinformation surrounding the vaccines and treatments surrounding COVID. So it's a very COVID-specific list of issues they had with Joe Rogan. Important to note, though, they did not call for Joe Rogan to be removed from the platform. 

[00:03:11] They just wanted Spotify to have a clear and public policy about what they were going to do to moderate what they described as misinformation coming from the Joe Rogan podcast. Then Neil Young, classic rock legend, published a letter on his website demanding Spotify remove Joe Rogan from the platform. He basically said they can have Rogan or Young, not both. Now, the letter has since been deleted, but others followed suit behind him. So you had Joni Mitchell remove her music from Spotify along with Neil Young. Bernie Brown said she would not be publishing new podcast episodes until further notice. She's since released a more detailed statement about her thinking and her conversations with Spotify. So this is all starting to break. And then you have Ashley Carman, who's amazing, she's like the best podcast reporter, and she broke the story that Spotify did have private guidelines. It was about five sentences and they're very broad. Well, broad but vague. 

[00:04:09] And so then Spotify responds. They publish public guidelines, and they say they're going to start putting warning labels in front of podcast content discussing COVID 19, and linking to an information link, much like Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all the places do. Then Joe Rogan comes up. He post a ten-minute long Instagram video, sort of apologizing, accepting some responsibility, saying he's happy for the new guidelines and he's happy for the changes at Spotify. So that's where we are as of today, when we're recording with the controversy surrounding Joe Rogan and Spotify. I would argue that the actual controversy goes back to when Spotify brought Joe Rogan on to their platform with a $100 million exclusive deal. But that's the basic facts, but that leaves a lot of questions. 

Beth [00:04:54] Yeah, it's hard to know how to even put some scaffolding around this conversation because you've industry feelings about it, right? I am not at all resentful of the money that Joe Rogan makes because he has a huge audience. He's been doing this a very long time. People like what they like and people get paid when other folks like what they do. I did not like when Spotify started doing all of these exclusive deals because I think that's not good for podcasting. I think it hurts the industry. And it's hard for me to look at this situation without bringing that lens to it. 

[00:05:25] I also think this discussion around Joe Rogan is like people are grafting on whatever their pet issues are to it. Are we really talking about COVID? Are we really talking about something under this amorphous umbrella of canceled culture and free speech? It's not really any of those things, right? I think Joe Rogan here is kind of a stand in for what are the rules around COVID now and how are we all feeling about everything having to do with COVID? And where do we go from here when we've had a couple of years of just constricting around this topic and our judgment of each other? 

Sarah [00:06:05] Yeah, I mean, I think there's three things to talk about. I think there's Spotify, which absolutely knew who Joe Rogan was when they signed him to an exclusive deal, that's why they paid so much money for it. You know, he gets about 11 million listeners an episode. The average age is 24 and the average listener is male, so they knew what they were getting. And so I think it is problematic that knowing his history, knowing the type of conversations he's hosted, that they had no public policy and no real plan in place to deal with what anybody could probably predict was an inevitable controversy or conflict surrounding him or his guests. When I actually read this, like, five sentences of what they had ready to go in a $100 million deal, I thought, oh, that was lazy. Ya'll we're not ready for this. And that's just ridiculous. How could you not be? 

[00:07:01] I mean, he's been in the game a long time. There are hours and hours and hours in like one month, much less several years of his career where you could have listened to Joe Rogan and say, like, "Oh, okay, well, now we're not distributing Joe Rogan. We're publishing exclusively Joe Rogan. So what problems could we foresee here?" So, you know, as far as Spotify, I don't feel sorry for them. I think they should have seen this coming. I think they should have been better prepared. I still don't think this policy is great, but I think it's a step in the right direction. And I think you're right. I think that wrapped up in this, especially for us as podcasters, is the conversation about like whether publishing podcasts exclusive on platforms is good for the industry and I agree with you, I don't think it is. So I think that's the first thing. And I think the second thing is, you know, Rogan really tried to give a lot of grace. I've really tried to think about this. 

[00:07:48] You know, Joe Rogan has built a lot of trust with his audience. I think that's no matter how you feel about him, there are clearly millions of millions of people who trust him and who feel respected. Like what is the average 24 year old male getting from listening to the Joe Rogan podcast? And I have to believe it's a certain amount of like they feel respected inside the conversation, and that's a very important currency in our world. That's what we try to give to our listeners. We want them to trust us and we want them to feel respected in the conversation. Now, I think sort of if you scratch under the surface with him, there is these issues of speech. And I think with COVID in particular, there is a lot of speech out there that many of us don't like. You know that many of us feel immense information that we feel is dangerous, that we feel is problematic, that we feel perpetuates, you know, false ideas about the vaccine, false ideas about the the virus itself. And that's all true. 

[00:08:48] And the hard reality is it's still perfectly legal. There's really no sort of citizen solution, right? Because unless we're going to amend the constitution, saying whatever you want for the most part is legal. The government can't limit it anyway. And so we're left with this really unsatisfying consumer solution where we think this -- and I think there's a good case. I mean, we've had this conversation recently, like, if we're going to let people say what they want, we have to understand. Like, we had this conversation around January 6th that some people are going to take it in and it's going to be really dangerous. Most of the millions and millions of Joe Rogan's listeners listen to whatever they say. They sort it out. They move on. They're reasonable humans. 

[00:09:30] A small percentage I think probably get -- when he was on YouTube, get recommended another video and another video, and it is a pathway into more radical ideas. You know, I think that happens across a lot of platforms now. He's not on those anymore. So you could probably make the case that like the best, most promising thing that happened as far as Joe Rogan's impact is pulling him off all these platforms and putting him one place where there's not an algorithm pushing people in more extreme directions. But I just don't know if we found a -- we don't have a good solution to that because there can't really be a government solution. And so I think we're just really stuck and unsatisfied with the reality that on the internet in particular, in some of these social media platforms and on places like Spotify, there will be a home for what a lot of us feel is very damaging speech. 

Beth [00:10:19] I guess I don't feel dissatisfied around that as our condition because every other possibility I can think of is worse.  

Sarah [00:10:30] Yeah, but that could still be unsatisfying, right? 

Beth [00:10:33] I listen to one of the two episodes that caused a lot of controversy and that I think specifically attracted the attention of public health officials. I listened in full. It was very, very, long. I did not walk away thinking that this is misinformation or disinformation the way that I would typically use those terms. I thought it was unwise, not super helpful. It had moments of insight, it had some questions that I do think are reasonable questions deserving of answers, brought some issues to the surface that I think are worth talking about more. And also had a lot of nonsense in it. And that's going to happen. I mean, if you and I talked for four hours and shared the whole thing with everyone, there'd be moments when people are like, "What was happening here?" I mean, it's just is a lot of conversation to keep focused on and to do tightly enough to put in front of 11 million people. 

[00:11:28] But but I know that that's part of the appeal. I know that not everyone on our team felt this way. I sort of liked the video that he did on Instagram because it wasn't really an apology because he's not really sorry. And I think that's fine. I think he's going to keep doing exactly what he does. I think it was some public relations cleanup that he felt like he had to do. But I do think part of what works for him is that he just is who he is. He's very clear about it. And, to me, the best thing that can happen in this circumstance is more speech. If you don't like what you heard in that Joe Rogan podcast, put more speech out there and meet the challenge. I do think that it ultimately feeds the sensibility of people who feel that everything's being hidden and that there are secret agendas at work for us to have any kind of de-platforming conversation. Not that that's really where this started. That's just where everybody's brains go, right? 

[00:12:28] We go to what we're most concerned about. You know, I think Joe Rogan is who he is and is going to keep doing his thing. And that's fine because there are plenty of other places to add speech and to answer those questions and to just keep moving forward. It is really hard for me to get very reactive about Joe Rogan because I don't think that the vast majority of people who listen to him are walking away thinking he is 100 percent right about everything. There's not even a consistent message within the episodes. It meanders all over the place. 

Sarah [00:12:59] Well, that's the thing -- two things. One, the reason the consumer solution is so unsatisfying is part of like in trying to find a solution, you're often making the problem worse. Because the truth is, when Joe Rogan went to Spotify, the team at VIRB did a really good study after social media follows that result from his guests. And people that come on his show since he's been on Spotify, get fewer Twitter followers than even the same people would have picked up when he was across all the platforms. Fewer people are listening to Joe Rogan since he's been on Spotify. I mean, I think that's probably a pretty foregone conclusion. But now how many people are going to go listen to Joe Rogan because of this controversy? Like, that's why that consumer resolution is so dissatisfied, because the second you bring attention to the problem, you are also going to bring attention to the problem, right? 

[00:13:49] And more of those eyes and clicks that really fuel that sort of the currency and so are inside of a capitalistic model, right? And I think that's part of what's so unsatisfying about it. I mean, the second thing for me and Joe Rogan is like, look, do I resent the money he makes? I mean, I think Joe Rogan is talented. I think he's been at it a long time. But he is sloppy, and that's what I resent. There was a conversation on our podcast gathering place on Facebook and said, "What's the difference between Oprah and Joe Rogan?" Okay, look, I have to really examine myself because we all know how I feel about Oprah. But you know what? Oprah's not sloppy. You think Oprah would have thrown up three hours of an unedited conversation? Please. 

[00:14:34] I think that that to me is the difference. I think she had people on her show that then espoused fringe beliefs, no doubt about it. But it's like it just feels so different than inviting them on to espouse their fringe beliefs, right? Like one part of somebody's work to have them on a highly edited talk show. And then even though it is a very public and very powerful platform, no doubt about it. I'm not arguing that. I am not arguing that Oprah, over the course of her 20 years on television and, you know, hundreds and hundreds of hours of programing gave platform to people who didn't deserve it. She had Bill Cosby on a lot, so no argument there. But like what bothers me about him is not necessarily that he doesn't respect the power of its platform in that who he gives his platform to, it's just that he's just sloppy. 

[00:15:24] He's just like, there are times, you know, even you can tell in the conversation, like, he knows what's being said it's kind of bananas. But the red flags aren't red flags to him, they're like extra clickbait. Great. You know, like, it's going to fuel this sort of idea about his show that he's a questioner, that he's sort of libertarian anti-authority. And so that to me is like, I think he knows what he's doing.  And I think he doesn't care that it's sloppy because it sort of like feeds his brand and that's what bothers me about it. 

Beth [00:15:53] I think where that doesn't land with me is that it's sloppy compared to Oprah, but he's not trying to do the same thing she's trying to do. The whole point is, come hang out with me and let's kick some ideas around. I'm not trying to give you something highly produced. Like it's just a different animal. And part of what I love about podcasting is that you can have a different animal. I think that's really great. I think my frustration in this conversation partly centers on the the whole idea of platforming. Like, every time I read somebody right about now will like, you have this platform and you need to do this with it. I think why? Like why? I think that maybe what I love about podcasting could be succinctly summarized as we get to decide what we do with the platform. We get to decide when the ad break goes in, we get to decide how long it's going to be. We get to decide what it's about. 

[00:16:51] We get to decide if we're sharing this piece or that piece or not. And so it's a really beautiful, creative project. And I think that I don't want to go down  the sort of cancel culture road. But when I get frustrated in conversation, especially around COVID 19, I think part of my frustration is people should be able to define what looks like doing work that has integrity for themselves. That's my libertarian place, I guess. What do you think looks like doing your work with integrity? And I think what Joe Rogan is telling us in his ten minute Instagram apology is like he thinks he's doing work that has integrity. And in a society where we are all free to say what we want, the answer to that, to me, is lots of other people doing their work with integrity and people sorting out what they sought out from that. 

Sarah [00:17:41] I mean, I think that that would be true if we were talking about Joe Rogan in like 2009, right? Like when he is like first in the game and podcasting, he is young and scrappy, but that's not where you are when you sign a $100 million exclusive deal with Spotify. Like he's not podcasting, he's like the king of podcasts, right? And to me, it's not necessarily that I think he has responsibility with his platform. I just want him to acknowledge it's a different beast now. And you and have done that. Like, based on where we started with our podcast, we shifted because more people listen, not because we are trying to satisfy them. We started as a bipartisan podcast. We're not anymore. Lots of people don't like that, but because that's what it means to work with integrity, is to adapt and shift based on the realities of your work in your platform and who's listening. 

[00:18:28] And the thing is he's done that. That's why he signed $100 million dollars deal with Spotify. Like he acknowledges things are different and he's making money. And so just it's not really -- you're not kickin it with your friends anymore. You know, like, I get what you're selling and I get how some of this feeds that brand. I just think it's dishonest. You know, like, I just think that there's some inherent dishonesty there. Like when you're signing $100 million dollar deal, but you're also supposed to be like mister libertarian, there's just a part of me that's going to roll my eyes. I don't want to deplatform you. I'm just critiquing. I really have no action in mind more than just I will continue to roll my eyes. 

Beth [00:19:10] So what would that adjustment look like, where he stays authentic to himself and consistent with his brand, but you don't have that criticism of the you haven't adjusted to being the king of podcasting?  

Sarah [00:19:23] Well, what I would tell him is like, your brand is not static. The brand that made you famous. Like, you're a different person from when you started, just be true to that. You're more of a professional, and if you're not, you should be. You know, like, you should get an editor, Joe Rogan. And I don't believe that you don't have one either for what it's worth.  That to me is like, I'm not looking for a 180 degree move, right? I'm just saying acknowledge that things are different and you're not the dude in the dorm room anymore. And that's okay. You can shift and change and let your audience shift along with you. Like, how old is Joe Rogan? Why is his listeners still 24? These are questions worth asking. You know what I mean?

Beth [00:20:06] What do you think about the misinformation label as it pertains to COVID 19? Where do you think the lines should sit or by whom should they be drawn or how should we think about them? That's the part of this that I find myself really kind of getting spun up over. 

Sarah [00:20:21] Joe Rogan is 54, by the way. I just looked it up. So twice the age of his listener. That seems like an important information point. I think that when we use misinformation it's that problem of, like, we think there is speech that's damaging and we want a government solution. But there can't be one because we have free speech and we're just stuck in this cycle of, like, we're not wrong, it is damaging. There were people that started listening to Joe Rogan and got radicalized. I have no doubt in my mind. No doubt. And so like that is hard and that is damaging. 

[00:20:54] But I don't know. Like, I think we use the term misinformation because what we're really trying to say is like some speech is damaging. And I just don't know if we're happy with the solution. I think younger people in particular, they're sort of arguably like an illiberal bent that like, well, if it's harmful, we should make it illegal. You know, I think that's the undercurrent of this conversation. Under canceling and misinformation and public health. And there's this sort of like undercurrent of like, well, if it's harmful, should we make it illegal? Right now we can't for sure. And so then what does that mean? 

Beth [00:21:34] Well, I feel like the next iteration of I don't like it therefore it should be illegal but it can't be becomes; therefore, the market should fully reject it. 

Sarah [00:21:42] Yeah, and that's not working at all. 

Beth [00:21:43] And we have people who become very reactive to that idea too. 

Sarah [00:21:49] Because you fuel the market when you take that stance. For better or for worse -- or a certain aspect of the market, right? The second you stand up and say the market should reject it, there are people be like, oh, I do listen. 

Beth [00:22:01] To me, the reason that this is such a thing, as situation Capital is, really has nothing to do with how we feel about podcasting as an industry or what Joe Rogan does. It is, I think, that people are tired of feeling judged about COVID. You know, and in my community, I think a lot about this idea where people are saying, "I just want things to be normal again." But here things are pretty normal. If you don't interact with the health care system routinely or the education system routinely, you can have a very pre-COVID normal experience of the world here. You can go to a restaurant. You can go wherever you want. You definitely will not be the only person who is unmasked. You can go to a sporting event. The whole world saw us celebrating the Cincinnati's entrance to the Super Bowl. I mean, like, you can have a really normal day here. 

[00:22:53] And I think what people mean when they say I'm just ready for things to get back to normal is, I can have a pretty normal day and not feel judged about it. I can have a pretty normal day and post my pictures of it and not have anybody roll into my comments asking about everybody being vaccinated or not, right? People are just tired of being judged. And that's why I think this discussion about Joe Rogan has picked up so much steam. Because if you wade through the three plus hours, you hear some fair questions and critiques, some moments where he'll say to his guest -- like if the guest is saying, "Well, I think the vaccine could cause this," Joe will say, "Well, to be fair, COVID causes that too." 

[00:23:37] Like you hear a discussion that doesn't sound like misinformation if you wade through the whole thing. But there are pieces in isolation that definitely do, and I don't know what the average Joe Rogan listener walks away thinking after all that. Maggie used the word dizzying. I found it to be so also. It is quite a journey to hang in for that long. But I just feel like the only reason anybody really cares about that is because in our personal lives we are experiencing, no matter where we are, if we're a person who's still isolating or for a person who's living our best life not thinking about COVID or anywhere in between, I do think we all have this like hovering sense of other people judging my choices right now that we want to be unburdened from. 

Sarah [00:24:20] See, I disagree with that because I don't think it's the judgment. I think it's the reality that I don't really -- even, I mean, my town is not -- we both live Kentucky. We both can go to restaurants and move around the world. But it's still not the same. Like, it's normal on paper, but it's not normal. And like also who moves like -- I know what you mean, like, if you're not a teacher or a nurse. But the truth is, like, most of us interact with enough of the world, either through the health care system or the school system or a daycare system, or like a grocery store where things are not normal or a vacation that keeps getting canceled or a concert you want to go to that keeps getting moved or a conference you were supposed to go to in a big city that that they're going to require... You know, like, I don't know how many people really do move around normally who are untouched because everything is different. And it's going to stay that way. 

[00:25:16] And I don't know if people are mad about being judged about that because I don't hear as many of those comments as I used to. Like, I think that everybody's -- like it's kind of shifted. It's more just like people are mad, they're mad that everything's different. And I think the reality that it's going to stay different. And so if you listen to Joe Rogan and you've taken COVID really seriously, you're mad because he's not taking it seriously. And your perspective like you've made these sacrifices and you're acknowledging that everything's different and you've adjusted accordingly, and you're furious that he refuses to acknowledge that or allows guests on who refuse to acknowledge that. And if you're on the other side where you still feel the judgment and you still feel that things are different, like you're mad that they're mad. It's just this awful cycle where I feel like all we really need to look at each other is and say, everything's different and it's going to stay different and that's hard. 

Beth [00:26:06] Yeah, I don't really disagree with anything that you say there, except that I do think there is a layer of -- I think, in that anger that everybody has, there is a lot of judgment wrapped up in that of being felt judged and of judging other people, and that that's how our anger is working itself out. I feel like in a place of real acceptance about COVID, probably the most acceptance I have felt throughout the whole pandemic. Maybe it's just practice. I'm getting better at it. I really don't feel mad at anybody right now. I really feel a sense --  even after listening to all of this with Rogan and his guest, who I did think said some very bananas things, we don't know how to deal with this. We are not equipped. 

[00:26:49] And all of our life experiences are contributing to what we've done so far and how we perceive it and what we're afraid of and what we're motivated by. And I just don't have it in me to be mad at anybody about it. And also because the virus has shifted so many times, the actual virus, because we are dealing with another life force, I struggle with using misinformation in such a definitive way because so much of what we say about this depends on what we know and when and what time was this issued. You know, I just don't feel as reactive to this as a lot of what I'm seeing, even from people that I usually agree with on these types of issues. 

Sarah [00:27:32] Yeah. No, I mean, I'm reactive, but it's really not as much about what he says, it's it's more about like how he operates and that that's been pretty consistent and that Spotify could not anticipate that this was going to be a problem. I just think that is real silly. But as far as, like, I think the conversation around misinformation is just hard. And instead of saying like, "This is hard and we don't have any easy solutions." It's easier to say you're wrong and you're hurting people. I'm currently very, very, deep right now in Conflict is Not Abuse by Sarah Schulman and it is speaking to me on all kinds of levels that I can't get into right now or this podcast is going to be as long as a Joe Rogan podcast before long. 

[00:28:15] So we're going to wrap up this conversation and move on to talking about alcohol in the United States. Dry January is over, it's been increasingly popular in recent years. Although, Beth, I did learn this fun fact. The Finnish government launched a sober January campaign in 1942 as a part of the war effort. So it's been around a while, but this did feel like the right time to have a conversation that we've been meaning to have for a long time about alcohol, particularly this culture surrounding women and alcohol in the United States and how the pandemic has shifted that. 

Beth [00:29:02] I always want to talk to you about alcohol after I have a conversation with my friend Eric, who's been on the podcast before. Eric is very serious about his Second Amendment rights, and I learn a lot in discussion with him through some very serious disagreement that we have about what the Second Amendment means. But in all of those discussions, as we're talking very much aligned with the COVID conversation, is we're talking about risk and what acceptable risk looks like and what risk gets managed from a public policy perspective or not. He often will say, "What about alcohol?" You're telling me guns are this dangerous? Alcohol is really dangerous. Where is the public policy discussion around how dangerous alcohol is?" And my only response is, like, You're right. You're right. It's dangerous in a different way than guns. I don't think they're the same. But, yeah, I think we need to have a broader public policy conversation about alcohol. Absolutely. 

Sarah [00:29:59] And I think the pandemic in so many ways has really, you know, accelerated that conversation. So the American Psychological Association, about one year into the pandemic, put out a study that one in four adults reported drinking more to manage stress during the pandemic. And if an adult had children between the ages of five to seven, that number doubled. I read an interview with Dr. Sarah Wakeman, who's the medical director of the Substance Abuse Disorder Initiative at Massachusetts General Hospital, and she said there's actually been a 41 percent increase in heavy drinking days among women. 

[00:30:34] A 41 percent increase in heavy drinking days among women. Look, the truth is it was bad before the pandemic. From 1999 to 2017, the number of alcohol related deaths the US doubled to more than 70000 a year, making alcohol one of the leading drivers of the decline in American life expectancy. You also saw a huge 65 percent increase in cirrhosis deaths from 1999 to 2016. And there's been a 10.5 percent annual increase in the average cirrhosis related mortality rates among people 25 to 34. So we see this in particular again among women. 

Beth [00:31:08] We started this conversation on Instagram by sharing a rill from an account @therapyforwomen that I find very insightful on issues surrounding alcohol. And she had put together a real that just showed women in pop culture, very recognizable women in pop culture, all with, you know, very prevalent alcohol in their hands. And as I was watching that rill, I thought about how we are the just say no dare generation, right? Like, I heard so much about drugs all through school. I really did not hear a lot of conversations about alcohol. I heard about alcohol at church, but not in any kind of public health programing. I heard don't drink and drive. But that was really it. And when I look at these numbers, it feels to me connected to a larger issue of bodily awareness, how we really aren't taught to assess what we feel inside our bodies and what it means. 

[00:32:13] And that leaves us really powerless in the face of anything that can be addictive and also makes us not so good at feeling our feelings and lots of other things that I think are bad for us. But I don't want this conversation to sound like alcohol is the worst, no one should drink ever. That would be super hypocritical. I enjoy a glass of wine now and then. But what I've realized is I enjoy a glass of wine now and then now because I really understand what's going on in my body. And I know if I drink this by itself, I'll have a headache. I'll feel terrible. If I have three glasses, I'm going to start to feel really bad pretty immediately. It's not going to be worth it. And there was never -- I guess it's like sex. It was just easier to say don't do it than to talk about. Yes, and here are the constraints. Yes, and here are the things you need to be thinking about as you wade into this territory. 

Sarah [00:33:05] Yeah, I mean, I think that when I was growing up, my parents didn't drink. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. My grandmother doesn't drink and is pretty, you know, hardcore about telling people they shouldn't drink either because she had an alcoholic father and an alcoholic brother. I used to kind of think she was too hardcore about it, and now I don't know. I think she might be on to something. Because it does feel like, you know, what's been normalized is not drinking as enjoyment, but it's drinking is coping, particularly for women. The cultural message is loud and clear. You know, the mommy wine culture, the just meme after meme after meme after meme. And it does feel like a little bit the pandemic broke the spell on that. Like, I don't feel like it's as accepted as it was like sort of that language surrounding like this is how mommy gets by, you know, coffee wine repeat. 

[00:34:04] Because there was just more cultural acceptance of like, you know the reason women have to drink to cope is because being a woman is really freaking hard right now, especially like a woman in the pandemic, especially if you had children to care for with the like basic collapse of daycare and public school. It's really, really, hard and stressful and the pressure can be unbearable. And, you know, I think that there's more recognition of presenting alcohol as the solution to this systemic problem is oppressive, right? In my life, because I didn't grow up around people who drank and who were like always the life of the party, I have not struggle with alcohol, but my husband has and we had lots and lots of conversation. And I will never forget one time. A therapist telling us there is no healthy level of drinking. 

[00:35:03] Let me say it again.  I will never forget a therapist on this one time because there was like this big global study and I looked it up in preparation of the show. It was like in 2018. It was like a meta analysis, 195 countries looking at drinking patterns from 1990 to 2016, and the conclusion was basically like there is no safe level of drinking. They can't tell you this is how many drinks you should have in a week and it's safe because there really isn't a safe level of drinking. And because I'm an Enneagram one, it bothers me not at all to say that. It doesn't mean that I think people who drink are bad people or there's any morality, but I just think like the sort of basic chemistry of alcohol it's sort of hard to ignore. Now I do think that the -- I will say this. I think the big piece in the Atlantic,  I think it was like a year or so ago, did such a good job of piecing all this apart. 

[00:35:54] It was Kate Julian's piece America has a drinking problem, where she talked about like why the physiology of alcohol is sort of hard to argue with, what it does to our body and why it disrupts our sleep, and why it can make your anxiety work. There's a new hashtag now called Anxiety which I learned all about while researching this show. Her thing was like, well, if all that's true, why do we still drink? Why do we drink for hundreds and hundreds of years? And it was like a really interesting exploration. And she talks about, like, it can lower social inhibitions in a way that is helpful for us as social creatures, right? Like it helps us be together in groups. It can fuel creativity. Like that's clear. Like there  were and are positive benefits socially to drinking.But the problem is, in America in particular, we started drinking by ourselves. We moved from beer to liquor which has way higher alcohol content. 

[00:36:43] And so I thought she did a really good job of sort of like piecing that apart. And I do try to think about that. But I think like, you know, just the physiology for me is just socially, my own life is hard and I cannot drink, really. I can't. I do sometimes in social settings, and I don't even really know why because I know it's going to probably hurt my stomach. It's going to disrupt my sleep. It's going to make me cranky. And I think it is. It's just because it's that like social culture that has built around alcohol that is so powerful. Like in those images, in the real, it's like that's what stylish women do. They have a big glass of wine and that's what -- it's not just like alcohol is coping with stress. It's also like alcohol is status. I mean, there's a huge multibillion dollar industry that's taught us like this substance is status. And I think that's like just a huge component of it. 

Beth [00:37:36] As I was thinking of this episode, you know, alcohol is another thing that's difficult to talk about because it feels like it's a topic that is so much about our individual choices instead of existing in a context. And the context of talking about alcohol when you really think about it is so challenging because you have people listening who are going to feel attacked if they enjoy drinking. You have people listening who struggle to be around alcohol. You find it very anxiety inducing. You have people listening who have been traumatized because of alcohol. Who've lost loved ones because of alcohol? It is just such a charged topic and. When I talk about trying to address it through public policy, I don't mean return to prohibition. I think we regulate alcohol just fine. What I think we don't do is educate about alcohol well. 

[00:38:33] And when you marry up not educating out about alcohol well with those cultural status symbols with a very lucrative industry pressures, with a culture where we don't have a lot of real support so we wrap ourselves up in a lot of fake support and have made alcohol the default fake support that we offer, that leaves us all very vulnerable to the terrible outcomes that we see. And I just want to like service it more in conversation to say that that is a public health issue too. And seeing some of the tools that we have around public health through the pandemic makes me realize we can be sharpening and compounding those tools more often around a brown, broader subject. So I think it would build trust in public health to have it front and center when we're not in a crisis in ways that are more productive than maybe it has been in the past. And alcohol seems like a really good opportunity to me. 

Sarah [00:39:38] And I think people are doing that work. Like I think the Sober Curious movement is incredibly powerful. I think they're helping people moderate support and the mindful drinking. Because I do think there is a false binary of like either you don't drink or you're an alcoholic, and that's not true. I mean, I will never forget as long as I live an episode of Oprah about -- it was early, early, in the game, and Oprah did an episode on women and drinking. And this woman said, If you have to create rolls around when and how you drink you maybe have a problem. Like people who manage alcohol successfully don't have rules for themselves. And I thought, oh, that makes a lot of sense. And a lot of things, not just alcohol for what it's worth.  And so I think like helping people -- so I think there's room for the people who can manage it to like fight back against those societal pressures that say it is status, that it is a way to cope with anxiety and stress, that you need to do it every day. 

[00:40:33] Like just  giving people the tools and allowing them to do it mindfully or think about their drinking, I think that's why Dry January is so popular. Is because it gives people a pause to think, wait, what is this doing to me? Because it is hard to -- look, because it is an addictive substance, it is hard to to bring that mindfulness just like of your own individual willpower. I think willpower is kind of a myth anyway. So that's just hard. Giving people the tools to do that and the support, the social support, because it is also like such a social lubricant, so you need, I think, the social support to examine it in other ways as well, I think that's really powerful. And I think the pandemic has accelerated that as well. I think the pandemic has definitely accelerated it all. I told a friend the other day, I was like, "I feel like in the middle of this pandemic, it was like either people's drinking got way worse or they stopped drinking altogether." And there's like not a lot of in-between as I look around at my friends. Now, that might be my age, but I do think that the conversation around alcohol, I think, has gotten more nuanced and more complex in really positive ways. 

Beth [00:41:42] And I think some of the reason we saw that in the pandemic is because for parts of the population, for parts of this huge category of time that we refer to as the pandemic now, there was more time to think about the effect things had on you. You know, there was more quiet. Work started to occupy a different space for many of us, and it was a chance to step back and think through these things. This is my big beef. It is really hard to ask people to observe themselves and their reaction to something. How addictive is it for you? What is your tolerance level? 

[00:42:21] What feels good in life giving as a social lubricant versus very depressing? If that's your first foray into observing yourself and the effect something has on you. And I just want to really start building more skills earlier, and I think that there are social, emotional learning programs that are trying to do this for students in school. There's there are a lot of people out there doing good work trying to teach us as parents to give our kids these types of skills. For me, yoga has been transformative and helping me have some of those skills, but we need to bring a lot more vocabulary to the alcohol discussion about how we enter. How can you have that mindfulness around it? What does that actually look like and what's that practice? 

Sarah [00:43:03] Well, because knowing that particularly women drink because it's so, so, hard to be a woman right now in America and in 2022, I'm not looking to be the one that's like, "Yeah, well, you need to try harder on this thing." No, though, there's lots of try hard going on out there. Plenty of try hard. A lack of try hard is not the problem. And so saying like, "Oh, just try harder not to drink," is definitely not going to work. Not helpful and actively harmful. Several years ago, I was listening to this podcast. I think it was This American Life, and I was talking about parenting support. And this nurse came to this woman's house and she was pregnant, and she was sort of at risk for all these behaviors. I remember the nurse telling her like you really shouldn't smoke, and the woman looked at her with such like anger and said, "This baby's taken everything from me, it's not taking my cigarets.". 

[00:43:56] And I'm not trying to trigger that reaction. You know what I mean? Like, the world is hard enough. I'm not trying to say, like, don't take this one thing. Because that's the reaction you get. That's the definite -- like that's the vibe you get when people get defensive about their drinking. It's like everything is so hard, how dare you suggest I give this up. And I just think we have to be so cognizant of that and empathetic to that. It is hard. Like, I get it. You know, like, I get it. And so I don't want to put people in a space where they're like defensive and like, you're a bad person, you just need to try harder. Because, again, so much try hard out there right now. I do think we can put this conversation and the awareness around alcohol safely in the bucket of  increased awareness due to the pandemic. Like, I'm not saying it's a silver lining because I also know that the pandemic increased stress and increased drinking, but I do feel that there has been a big shift in this conversation societally and the understanding about it societally, and I hope that that will help a lot of people. I do.  

[00:45:11] In the fall, Beth, my friends and I went to a corn maze and there was like this big inflatable like trampoline thing and me and to my girlfriend jumped on it. And I posted on Instagram that three of three moms peed themselves while jumping on this. And about half the response on Instagram was, oh my god, yes. And about half the approach was like, "Wow, you don't need to do that. Go see a pelvic floor therapist." I was like. "Well, okay, fine, I will Instagram. So I've been going to see a pelvic floor therapist because I don't want to be myself when I cough, sneeze and or jump on a trampoline. 

Beth [00:45:47] Okay, tell me what a session with a pelvic floor therapist looks like. Where are you? What do you wear? Are you by yourself or with other people? How long is it? Just give me the rundown. 

Sarah [00:45:57] It's just like a regular old physical therapy office. I'm in a room with the physical therapist, who's lovely, by myself. And so the first one, we just talked about kind of what my issues were and how the pelvic floor works. And she gave me some exercises to do sort of like, you know, the clamshell where you bring your leg up and bring it down with resistance bands. But then the next one was really interesting because she put like biofeedback monitors so she could see like how my pelvic floor was tightening and relaxing when I was doing Kegels and the whole situation to make sure -- because sometimes like the issue is not that it's weak. Sometimes the issue is that it's like over tight and not relaxing. 

[00:46:42] I've learned a lot about the pelvic floor. And she gave me some more exercises to do. And she just said, like, it's really good that I'm coming in now because it's harder when you're like 50 or 60 and it's been going on for a decade for her to help you. But I just thought, you know, they're right. I'm not going to accept this as just a part of being a 40 year old mother. It's like there is probably something I can do to help that. And, you know, I learned a lot about that when I did the Happy Hips Course, she talks a lot about the pelvic floor and how everything gets just though thrown out of whack when you have kids. And so I'm really hopeful. I'm hopeful and excited. 

Beth [00:47:13] So what is the length of your relationship with the pelvic floor therapists? How many times are you going? 

Sarah [00:47:18] I don't know. I like went the first time and I came back the next week and she said, "Okay, I'll see you in two weeks." I will. I mean, I'm not to like brag, but based on my biofeedback, she said I was in a  pretty good position. Like, I don't have huge issues. And so, hopefully, just with some exercise and a little bit of feedback to make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and hopefully it will get better. 

Beth [00:47:40] So I think a lot of times when anybody's talking about any form of therapy, physical or otherwise, there's this hesitance of like, what am I actually getting into? How long is this going to go on? How long until I'm fixed? 

Sarah [00:47:54] Well, look, I think physical therapy of any type you've got to like mad adjust your expectations. We should maybe abandon the word fixed, right? 

Beth [00:48:06] I said that with a joke because we don't get fixed about anything. . 

Sarah [00:48:10] Right. 

Beth [00:48:10] That's all we want to know. True. 

Sarah [00:48:11] But I just thought, I think it's really important. I think especially like postpartum, the Happy Hips woman says postpartum is forever. When your child is 21 you are still postpartum. I think I'll have more information. I think it is really important and important to  women's quality of life. And so I just want to thank all our listeners who rolled into my DMs and was like, girl, you peed yourself on the trampoline, go to a pelvic floor therapist. 

Beth [00:48:40] Yeah, I have to give another shout out to yoga here because I really developed an understanding of the pelvic floor through yoga. I specifically focused on it around my pregnancy in ways that were really supportive and helpful to me, so I really haven't had a lot of issues. And now that I am kind of deeping my toes in jazzercise right now, I'm really enjoying it. But I have an awareness of when the pelvic floor can be engaged. Well, I'm doing that because of yoga.  Yoga has taught me so much about how my body operates that now I can see when I get into other spaces oh, like, this is an opportunity to to work those muscles and to, you know, figure this out in a way that has been really supportive to me. 

Sarah [00:49:26] Well, we know we have covered a very wide range of things today. They will all hopefully generate good conversation among all of you, and one of the ways we love conversing with all of you is through emails and notes you send in. We read every single one and we often highlight our favorites in our weekly newsletter. We have no doubt that today's conversation will continue and probably lead to some listener email highlighted in the newsletter, so make sure you head over to our website and sign up for the newsletter. You don't want to miss any of the assuredly thoughtful notes that will come for this community, and we'll be sharing those in response to today's episode. We will see you next Tuesday and until then, keep it nuanced ya'll. 

Beth [00:50:10] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:50:16] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:50:22] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:50:26] Martha Bronitisky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Heller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holaday, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:50:43] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy Whited, 

Beth [00:51:01] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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