Understanding the National Guard

Topics Discussed

• The National Guard with LTC Stephen Martin

• Outside of Politics: Sibling Conflict

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Episode Resources

• Banner Year for Kentucky National Guard (Kentucky National Guard)

• Parent Coaching with Mary Van Geffen

Transcript

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:00:00] The unique nature of the Guard is that a lot of the times what we get asked to do doesn't necessarily line up with our military job. Here in Kentucky, we have field artillery soldiers who are not shooting their rockets, they're filling sandbags or doing search and rescue or going door to door to check on people or doing logistics and supply. So we have a lot of tools at our disposal. And probably what makes us the most effective, particularly in the state response, is our ability to mobilize and organize and bring a sense of structure to a chaotic environment. 

Sarah [00:00:45] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:46] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:48] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:01:04] Hello, and thank you so much for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. One of our listeners, Megan, offered a very beautiful description of what we do here about our last episode. She called it a big picture reflection that helps us see beyond the current political rhetoric. And we're going to try to offer that again today by talking about the National Guard. You've probably been hearing about the National Guard in just a huge variety of contexts over the past few years being deployed around protests and border issues, as well as driving school busses and helping set up emergency hospital overflow areas during COVID. So we wanted to spend some time talking about what the National Guard is and even more importantly, who makes up the National Guard. The people behind this incredibly diverse work offer us a lot to think about as citizens, and we're excited to discuss that today with Lieutenant Colonel Steven Martin, who is the director of public affairs with Kentucky's National Guard. 

Sarah [00:01:55] Before we share this interview with Lt. Col. Martin, we just wanted to give a short reminder that we'll be talking live with our premium members on February 22nd at 8:30 p.m. Eastern and would love for all of you to join us. If you subscribe via Apple Podcasts subscriptions, please, please, please follow the link in the show notes to ensure that we have your email address so that you can get the link to this event. If your membership is through Patreon, you receive all the connection information there. Friend of the show, Dr Carla Vermillion, who is an expert in disaster mental health, gave us a perfect introduction to today's conversation. She wrote, "I was happy to hear that you'll be talking about the incredible importance of the National Guard that's often not recognized by the public. Here's a piece of background info I recently learned from a colleague in Emergency Management that I thought might be of interest, though it is pretty grim. 

[00:02:50] Throughout the first waves of the pandemic, New York state National Guard members were deployed to participate in body retrieval from people's homes after home deaths. The logic was that there was no point in sending overtaxed EMT teams when it was too late for them to help, and funeral homes were too overwhelmed to keep up with collecting remains. So instead, the Guard was sent out to retrieve the corpses and transport them for processing. You can imagine the mental health impact of this task, especially on the young service members who certainly hasn't signed up for that particular form of service. I just thought that that was such an intense example of the kinds of demand service members can be charged with meeting without any acknowledgment from the public." Thank you to Dr. Vermilion for sharing that. I think that is an incredibly helpful insight, and so we hope to provide a little of that acknowledgment from the public today and to learn more about this work from Lt. Col. Steven Martin of the Kentucky National Guard. 

Beth [00:03:38] Lieutenant Colonel Martin, I'm really grateful that you're spending some time with us today. I would love to just get from you National Guard 101. Our listeners have been hearing about the National Guard in so many contexts over the past year, driving school busses, assisting at hospitals, disaster relief. And so we wanted to take a second and say, you know, what is this organization who makes up the National Guard? And how is it that you all are involved in so many different areas of our lives? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:04:07] Certainly, the Kentucky National Guard and the National Guard as a whole is really a unique organization in the Department of Defense, where you have an Active Duty Army, you have Active Duty Air Force, Active Duty Marines, you have Army Reserve, Air Force Reserve, a host of members of the military, and they all answer to the president. So they're all under what's called Title 10 authority, and the president has the authority to tell them what to do, when and where to go. And and they're funded directly and solely through the federal government. Where the National Guard is different is, we answer to the president as well, and he or she can mobilize us and deploy us overseas or stateside. But we also answer to the governor. And that's where flood relief comes from, tornado relief comes from hurricane relief. 

[00:05:04] And so we answer to both the the governor and the president. We have a dual mission, I guess, is a good way to describe it. So in some instances, the president will mobilize us or the Department of Defense will mobilize us to go overseas to Kosovo or to Iraq and  the federal government's paying our bill and we're command directed to go there. If there's a tornado or hurricane support then the governor has the authority to call us up and then the state is actually paying for that under state active duty. And it looks a little different in each state. But that's really the overarching description for how National Guard works in general, and that's how it works here in Kentucky also. 

Beth [00:05:49] So if I'm thinking about each state's Guard, what is the organizational structure look like knowing that you have that dual reporting to both the president and the governor. Who is the effective leader day to day? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:06:02] So the governor essentially is the state commander in chief, while the president is the federal commander in chief or the commander in chief. And the governor will appoint usually -- and again, this is different in every state in some respects, but the governor will appoint a two star general. The one in Kentucky happens to be Major General Hal Lamberton, and most states are commanded by a two star general. That person is over the National Guard. And most every state has a membership of the Army and Air Force that make up the National Guard. So it's a joint organization commanded by a two star general, and the governor grants that authority to the two star general to to direct all activities in the Kentucky National Guard or in the National Guard as a whole. 

Beth [00:06:52] Tell me about the people who serve in the Guard. 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:06:55] The majority of our Guardsmen are part time. We do have a small, full time force. Most states maintain about 15 percent of their total force is full time. And those full time personnel will really facilitate the training aspect of the Guard, helping to provide support to it, making sure that things run day-to-day. And then the other 85 percent are what's called our part time Guardsmen. Their drilling status Guardsmen and they come in generally one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer for training. But they also have schools that they have to for to enhance their job in order to get promoted to the next level. We have professional military education that they have to go to. So you have to balance all of those requirements with whatever that individual does on the civilian side. I mean, that's from a lawyer, to a plumber, to a teacher, to college student. The majority of our Guardsmen are really probably college age, and many of them will take advantage of a lot of the educational benefits that are provided by virtue of being a part of the organization. 

Beth [00:08:08] Okay. Tell me about the training. Knowing that we're going to this conversation about disparate missions, how do you prepare people for all the types of things the Guard may be asked to do? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:08:18] So Guardsmen are -- there are soldiers in the Army first and there are airmen in the Air Force so every Guardsman has to go through active duty basic training, whether it's army basic training or Air Force Basic training. And that really just teaches those basic soldier or airman skills and then all of the courses that our Army and Air Force brethren are required to take are military courses. So any promotional courses they have to go to to get promoted, those are all federal courses that are put on by big Army, big Air Force. The unique nature of the Guard is that a lot of the times what we get asked to do doesn't necessarily line up with our military job. Here in Kentucky we have field artillery soldiers who are not shooting their rockets in support of our state mission. They're filling sandbags or doing search and rescue, or going door to door to check on people or doing logistics and supply. 

[00:09:25] So we have a lot of tools at our disposal. And probably what makes us the most effective, particularly in the state response, is our ability to mobilize and organize and bring a sense of structure to a chaotic and violent environment, much like a tornado or hurricane relief that that we can mass support very quickly. Just to be able to bring a sense of structure to that, to whatever might have happened. And then we can bring resources and just institutional knowledge about how to coordinate a response very quickly and effectively as it relates to that logistical chain, too. How do you actually get that bottle of water from one side of the state to the other side of the state so that folks don't go thirsty? 

Beth [00:10:13] Well, that's a good bridge to talking about the activities of the Guard. Just over the past year, can you tell me about some of the things domestically that the Kentucky Guard has been involved in? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:10:23] Well, I can say for sure the Kentucky Guard in particular, much like every other Guard in the nation, has been incredibly busy with everything that we've been called up to do, both stateside and overseas. We've been much like everybody else, we've been dealing with this pandemic for the last two years and the Guard has had an integral part in providing a response effort to the folks in the communities that are most impacted. And every state does it a little bit different. Here in Kentucky we've really chosen to focus on helping in the hospitals, testing sites, food banks support. We helped to set up an alternate care facility back in 2020, just in case the hospitals got overrun beyond the point that they could even care for the individuals that were coming through the door. Thankfully, we never had to actually open the doors to the alternate care facility, but we were prepared to respond and have 2000 beds available for those who are needing a place to recover.

[00:11:27] And we stood it up, had all the beds available and it was actually run by military medical personnel. We were fully prepared to receive them. And, again, we were thankful that that never came to fruition. But in other states it did and particularly in New York, they had to push through a couple of alternate care facilities just because the hospitals were overrun. At the height of our pandemic response, we had about 1000 Guardsmen who were mobilized to provide support all across the state. And I can't emphasize enough that these Guardsmen are not -- it's not a break glass in case of emergency. They're not just standing there ready to be mobilized. We had to take them out of whatever they were doing full time. Going back to whether they were a lawyer or they worked in hospitals or they were a teacher, we actually had to pull them out so that they could provide support. And we had to be intentional about that too. 

[00:12:26] You know, we didn't want to pool a doctor from a hospital that was already providing support to say, "Well, we want you to be a doctor somewhere else." That just doesn't make sense logistically. So we had to be a little savvy on making sure that we weren't actually taking away from the community, we were adding to it. Most recently, as you know, historic tornadoes hit Kentucky back in early December, and we didn't really know how bad it was until all the dust settled. And at the height of it, we actually mobilized more than 700 Guardsmen across 15 counties. And actually several Guardsmen are still there even today moving on into the end of January, helping to provide support with debris removal, search and rescue, helping with logistically moving supplies, helping to provide incident awareness and assessment to the senior leaders of the state of Kentucky so they can make informed decisions on how best to respond to the needs of the citizens in Western Kentucky. 

[00:13:32] And it was a coordinated effort. For me to say that we had Guardsmen boots on the ground inside 24 hours, I think it's just phenomenal because we're not a quick reaction force and we're not designed to be a quick reaction force. But we're Kentuckians helping Kentuckians, much like any of the other states that are involved. So there was actually one instance that we're just incredibly proud of, and it's the epitome of of the National Guard. We had a young specialist who he and his wife were living in Western Kentucky and their their house got decimated, I mean, just completely leveled, and he they survived. Thankfully, they were not injured, and after the tornado passed, they got in their car and he drove his wife to his parents house, dropped her off and grabbed a uniform and went back into the rubble to begin helping. 

[00:14:26] And we didn't find out until five days later that his house was one of the ones destroyed and one of our leadership said, "Hey, you don't need to be here. You need to be taking care of your family or and taking care of what's going on with your household." And and he said, "With all due respect, sir,  this is what I signed up for. My family's safe. The insurance company is going to reimburse us for our home and that's all in the process. I'm happy to be here. I want to be here and I'll continue to serve as long as you need me to." And that's that's just really the epitome of a Guardsman at heart. People sign up to serve and when called upon, they show up and they show up strong. 

Beth [00:15:09] That's an awesome story. What kind of support is available to folks who have difficult experiences during their service like that? I mean, I would imagine that you're often called into spaces where you see things that are hard, and emotionally it's just a difficult thing to process. Are there good resources available for members of the Guard? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:15:30] From an emotional standpoint, we mobilized several of our chaplains to go and actually help provide support and counseling. They were there in general to talk to the community, but specifically really to talk to Guardsmen as they were seeing such, real honestly, death and destruction, particularly with the tornado. We mobilized chaplains just for about every event. When hurricanes hit, chaplains are on the ground there helping to provide some mental, spiritual, emotional support. And then we also have family programs and grants. We help to coordinate grants for those Guardsmen who are actually physically affected by the tornado, that they can apply for those grants and receive those. We helped to try to partner and coordinate that with those nonfederal entities and other charitable organizations that help step up and want to take care of our own, take care of our Guardsmen. 

Beth [00:16:33] So you have all of these domestic missions and then you also have overseas missions. Can you tell me a little bit about the types of engagements that come up for the Guard outside of the United States? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:16:43] So the National Guard and the reserves, they make up a significant portion of the deployed population and that's by design. Department of Defense wanted to make sure that any future conflicts that we have is felt across the the the country, and that was a noticeable change from Vietnam. In Vietnam, we had the draft going on and and really the bulk of the force that was deployed were active duty service members. And the Guard did not have as much of a role to play Guard reserves during that time. And one of the things that Secretary of Defense, Mark Thomas, at the time said was one of the shortfalls was getting the communities involved. That was one of the reasons why they lost such -- for a variety of reasons, I won't get into Vietnam specifically, you know, that's a complex and complicated issue. But one of the things I identified was not having the community support to really keep the fight going. 

[00:17:49] So one of the things that was instituted was we really need to make sure that we incorporate the Guard and the Reserves in future conflicts or future encounters overseas. And so for the preponderance of the global war on terror since 9/11, about 50 percent or more of all troops deployed were Guard and Reserve. And that was really to bring the communities in.

Beth [00:18:12] Fifty percent, wow! 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:18:14] Yeah. And that would ebb and flow, but on average, we would have about 50 percent of the Guard and Reserve across the nation deployed to Iraq, to Afghanistan, to Kosovo, to Djibouti, one offs to a variety of countries all over the place. Since 9/11, we've pretty much had a Guardsman deployed every single day. There may have only been a handful of days, and that's just recently with our drawdown in Afghanistan and Iraq, that it's happened recently that we haven't potentially had a Guardsman overseas. And that would have only been a short window, I'd say maybe a handful of days since 9/11 of 2001. 

[00:18:56] Right now, we have several hundred Guardsmen deployed to the southwest border helping Customs and Border Patrol secure that area. We have soldiers and airmen in Kosovo and Germany and the Horn of Africa, and we've been deployed to the Indopacom area  as far west as Japan, to the Centcom area with Afghanistan and Iraq. We even send Guardsmen all the way down to Antarctica to help provide support down there. Left support with our C-130 out of the the Kentucky Air Guard and other members I think have deployed to Antarctica, which is neat and we cover about every continent. 

Beth [00:19:59] As I listened to you talk, a bunch of things are occurring to me, I always feel silly asking questions like, how can we support the troops? But I'm hearing you and so many specific things come to mind. It sounds like you really need employers who have great relationships with the Guard to give some grace and and patience and flexibility  to members who are called up. It sounds like you probably need chaplains. Can you just talk about some of the ways that people who are not members can be supportive of the organization? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:20:29] So I think one of our former agent in generals, one of our former generals really put it best when that question was asked to him. I heard him respond to this several years ago. Major General Steve Hogan, and he said that oftentimes communities want to support the military, and the Guard in particular, and they will put a service member on a pedestal or they'll put that service member in a parade and say thank you for your sacrifice and your your contribution. But there's no mechanism to try to bring that Guardsmen into the fold like into actually incorporating them into the community. So if I could say one thing, I think really from a community standpoint, it would be creating more intentional opportunities to make sure that our service members are welcomed into the community and not just celebrated. 

[00:21:30] Most service members don't want to be celebrated. We appreciate the appreciation, but I think more than anything, having opportunities and mechanisms to really be pulled into community, I think that's where the most money is going to be made in helping to support our service members, men and women in uniform, across the across the gamut. Active Duty Guard, Reserves that -- and  that could look like a variety of things. Whether there are things in place that provide service members to get together and talk about their experiences or counseling. Just things that would bring awareness to the military and a lot of our local communities that do this really well. And across Kentucky, I can tell you that you probably won't find more patriotic communities than in Kentucky and many of our states that they're just so appreciative and thankful for what the military does. 

[00:22:39] And particularly the Guard, the resources that we bring to bear in the communities that are hit hard by flooding and tornadoes and the like. That does not go unnoticed. And we do our best as well to recognize our employers and to work with them as much as we can because we can't do it without them either. They are a critical piece not only to the success of the Guard, but to the success and to the defense of our nation. We are beholden to them and to their support  and they they should get as much credit as well as even the Guardsmen going down and the families staying behind. The employers stay behind and have to figure out how to fill that gap and take care of that Guardsmen when they come back. 

Beth [00:23:25] I'm sure the pandemic has changed a lot for the Guard. I am wondering as you think about the future, what's next, what kind of people do you need in the Guard? What kinds of events can you imagine the Guard responding to down the road? I'm wondering if we can just project out a little bit. 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:23:40] I wish I had a glass ball to be able to determine what we might foresee next. I think after about every season in this pandemic, we thought it would run its course. About every three month, I think just the general feel across the country was we're about out of this mess and here we are two years later. Now, even just with 500 Guardsmen on duty today providing support to 42 different hospitals and three different food banks and multiple mobile testing sites, and who knows what tomorrow's going to bring even just for the pandemic? I think in our minds we want to continue to recruit the best and the brightest. Those that want to serve and want to give back to their community and also want to be a part of something larger than themselves. We in particular in the Guard are a family, where active duty military will bounce around from base to base. 

[00:24:38] I joined the Guard at age 17, the Kentucky National Guard, and I've been fortunate to be in a number of units. All of them have been in Kentucky and I can say I've count many members in the Guard closer than family. You know, deploying to Afghanistan and to Kosovo and to the southwest border, you become intimately familiar with those to your left and right. And watching their back and they're watching your back. So we'll continue to recruit those who want to be a part of the team and want to contribute. And you do see some recruiting shortfalls across the nation for active duty military and even some other states. And I can tell you Kentucky's good. We continue to patrol our ranks and people will retire out and move on and add new faces, take their spot and are ready to answer the call and provide support to Kentucky where she's needed and are willing to do what it takes to to respond. 

Beth [00:25:45] Is there anything I've not asked you that you think is important for people who are just learning about the National Guard to hear? 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:25:52] Well, we are an organization that is a jack of all trades. We adjust on the fly. That's one of the neat things about being in this organization that when a unit gets called up for debris removal, "Hey, we're going to send you to Western Kentucky, and you're going to have to clear 200 miles of roads over five counties, " they are equipped with some of the equipment that they're supposed to deploy with, with trucks and some safety gear. But on top of that, we hand them chainsaws and we say, "You're going to have to figure out how to use this chainsaw." And that seems like it's a no brainer. Hey, you crank it up and you start it. But we also don't want our Guardsmen to be chopping their arms off or hurting themselves. So there's a lot of second and third order effects that have to go into that. 

[00:26:44] So prior to handing a chainsaw to a Guardsman, we have to figure out and make sure they know how to operate that thing and keep it running. And then we can send them out on their own. Hey, you and three other guys are going to jump in a truck with four chainsaws and you're going to just start clearing clearing roads. And we're unique in that. We can trust that we're going to send four young soldiers or airmen out on their own and to be able to do that. And part of that is the level of detail that we go into to ensure that all the blocks are checked and those guys are taken care of. And I'd say that's probably where our bread and butter is you. We know who to talk to and liaison with FEMA and with other state agencies to make sure that we're providing the right support at the right location at the right time. 

[00:27:36] We have those relationships established and and that's our community too. We know, hey, this makes sense or this doesn't make sense. And we know where to get plugged in and we have that level of trust that we're here and we're a part of the solution. And a lot of times, you know, an outside entity comes in it can be like a wrecking ball sometimes if you're not tracking and understanding the sensitivities of the situation. I think that goes a long way particularly as it relates to the Guard and why we are so effective in our response stateside. And I would say one of the neat things that we bring to the table on overseas deployments is our unique civilian skill set, that we're trained just like active duty military. And, obviously, we're not going to be as immediately proficient as the active duty military on a particular task, but we can get spun up quickly. 

[00:28:34] And there's mechanisms in place where once we find out we're going to mobilize to a particular location, say we're going to send soldiers or airmen to Iraq, we make sure that over the preceding year they know what they're going to be doing and their training specifically for that mission. And then they get validated prior to going. So there's a lot of checks and balances in place to make sure that our Guardsmen show up and they can integrate with active duty military, that they're performing to the same standard. And that's one of the benefits of the Guard, that we are pennies on the dollar for being able to provide a mobilized force overseas. That for every dollar you spend on an active duty soldier, you're going to spend 30 cents on us and we can get spun up in a very short period of time and be able to provide a similar capability. 

[00:29:23] On top of that, we are very creative when it comes to overseas support. You know, you're in an austere environment and all of the sudden plumbing goes out or even you need plumbing, and one of our Guardsmen happens to do plumbing in their full time capacity, they can step up and help create solutions that are outside of the box. I've seen several times where we will have a lawyer who deploys in another capacity and then they have to stand up kind of a mayoral cell and figure out how to make everything work and keep everybody happy, and that lawyer has experience in that particular field, and they can help step in and advise the whole organization this is this is the best way to go through to to to keep everybody happy. And so we bring a lot of resources to bear that are just hard to quantify outside of just being a soldier or an airman. 

Beth [00:30:26] I love that response in it. It makes me think about how, especially the trust and community component, it must be very important to have diversity among your members. That you have folks with lots of different occupational skills. I would think that languages spoken would be important that both men and women, a variety of ages. I mean, it seems like that capacity to be so adaptable means that everybody's strength is important. 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:30:53] For sure. And I would say you touched on diversity a little bit, and that's something else that we pride ourselves on. We see diversity across our force as a force multiplier. Particularly in the Kentucky National Guard, we make up of what you see across Kentucky, you know, black white men, women, all races, creeds, colors, religion and that makes us that much stronger as a force. Particularly as far as languages go, we have quite a few Guardsmen that are fluent in Spanish and that helps in so far. We have what's called a state partnership program. Every state is partnering up with other countries around the world, and one of our countries that we're partnered up with is Ecuador. And we've been partnered with them since 1996 where we'll have Ecuadorian military come up for military to military exchanges, will go down there and partner with them, and we'll show them what we know and they show us what they know. And that has been a great resource for the Department of Defense. 

[00:32:04] When you when you talk about SOUTHCOM, who's in charge of all of South America and Central America and CENTCOM, who's in charge of different areas of Asia, where when you have the those relationships, long term relationships with different countries, that is another resource that we can come in and we have a level of trust with that military organization. The active duty military and Department of Defense as a whole can really use as an enabler to help with getting inroads in and establishing trust and helping to make sure that both sides are benefiting from from these relationships and these opportunities. Another state partnership program that we have -- we have two. We're fortunate that we have two countries that we partner with, so we regularly interact with Ecuador and then another one in Africa, Djibouti, and they are a a key critical location in Africa. 

[00:33:04] That's the only country in Africa that has a permanent military base [Inaudible]. And we have relationships with the Djiboutian military, the Djiboutian Navy, the Djiboutian Air Force, the Djibouti and Army. And you know that we've been cultivating those relationships for a number of years, and that goes a long way in helping to bridge gaps there and create additional opportunities for the U.S. government to come in and make headway and establish relationships, the Department of State, Department of Defense, the US Navy. And I just can't say enough about those long term relationships that we're building now with those overseas countries. And we see that all across the world. Every state has a number of countries that they partnered with for years and years. And I believe Nevada has partnered with the country of Tonga. And Tonga was the one that was just hit by the volcanic eruption. 

Beth [00:34:10] Volcano. 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:34:11] And the body  came out, I think, the same day and with a formal statement of support, hey, we are standing with our brothers and sisters in Tonga, and we will make sure that resources are going to be made available to them, particularly from us. So it's one thing for the big United States to say, "Hey, we're going to help," and it's another thing for a specific states to say, "Hey, you know, we have a real relationship with you all and we know you personally. We're coming to help personally." And that olive branch, I think, goes a long way in those relationships across the world. 

Beth [00:34:51] I love hearing that. You know, the word trust keeps coming up here, and as a civilian, it's really helpful for you to remind me that the Department of Defense ultimately has a peacemaking mission and that we actively are working towards peacemaking in the world through these types of relationships. So I really appreciate you sharing that. 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:35:12] You know, we utilize a lot of instruments of national power as a nation. Diplomatic, informational, economic and military is just one aspect of that. And we recognize that while we have our role to play, we're not the only role. So where we can help set up for success diplomatic measures, informational campaigns, economic benefits and the like, that furthers the end goal of keeping and maintaining peace. We understand that the ultimate goal is we're there as a last resort and and we recognize that and we want to continue to make that so as much as we can, because ultimately we're here to defend the nation against those that might want to oppress us. I think we do a pretty good job of helping to try and mitigate that and keep it as low level as possible. 

Beth [00:36:16] Well, I am so grateful for your time and grateful for everything the Guard has done in Kentucky over the last year, and I just really appreciate you helping take us to school on the mission of the Guard. 

Lt. Col. Steven Martin [00:36:27] Absolutely. Thank you so much for having us. 

Beth [00:36:42] Thank you so much to Lieutenant Colonel Martin. Sarah, outside of politics, I thought we could pick up where we left off on Tuesday when we discussed our disproportionate stress responses and feeling pretty wound up. One of the things that has me feeling very wound up lately is sibling conflict. Now, I have two girls, 11 and six. You have three boys. I can imagine that as the mother of three boys, hearing me feel stress about sibling conflict among two girls probably makes you roll your eyes. So let me just explain by saying -- and you have a little bit of this dynamic. You know, Chad was an only child and I was raised like an only child. I love and adore my sister. When she was born, I was 12. When she went to kindergarten, I went to college, so we did not have sibling fights. So when my girls are treating each other like the world is about to end and you are the cause of it, I don't know what to do. 

Sarah [00:37:39] Yes. I am an only child, but my husband is one of five. Thank goodness. So he has lots of sibling relationship experience, specifically sibling relationships among boys because he is one of four boys and a baby girl. You know, I was really spoiled. Amos and Griffin are two years apart and they did not have almost any sibling conflict for years and years and years. I have found the incident of sibling conflict has rocketed between Amos and Felix, who are four years apart like Jane and Ellen. So some of that I tell myself, like some of this is, I think, just like developmental conflict between their ages because I really didn't and still don't have a lot of conflict between Amos and Griffin. And thank goodness because Amos and Felix is enough to give me all kinds of stress. 

Beth [00:38:29] So what is their conflict look like? 

Sarah [00:38:31] Amos is constantly upset, and he feels that Felix receives special treatment. That Felix always gets what he wants when he cries. He lashes out at Felix physically. So he'll, you know, all of a sudden it'll be like, "Amos punched me in the head." And then Felix, you know, feels like Amos excludes him and makes fun of him and ignores him. And so there's just constant friction between the two of them. 

Beth [00:39:02] So similarly here, there are some physical lashing out. Ellen feels that Jane antagonizes her or does not want to be with her, and I think that's pretty accurate. And Jane feels that Ellen does not respect her space. Also accurate. So I have just been struggling because I see that they aren't getting better at resolving this conflict. It seems to be ramping up, not scaling back. And I think I get involved too soon because I'm always worried about like the dynamics between them. Sometimes I feel like I need to get in and protect Jane, even though she's older, because Ellen is so much more aggressive. And sometimes I feel like I need to protect Ellen because she's younger, you know. And I realize that my instincts in this situation are just off, like they're not informed by anything. 

[00:39:56] I've found a friend. I've called in some help. I am going to start working with Mary Van Geffen, who is a gentle parenting coach. Probably many of you know her from Instagram. I was introduced to her work by Aaron Moon, who is a good friend of ours. And I figured if Aaron has vetted this person, she's going to be fantastic. And then I started watching her Instagram Stories and Reels and thought, this is the person for me. So I've had one call with her so far, was just kind of an exploratory call. And I felt like she helped me really get clear on what my goal is and refine my question around this. Because my question is just basically, how do I parent them when they're in conflict with each other the way that I aspire to parent them individually? Like, I'm a guide, but I'm not in control. I care about you, but I want you to develop your own skills. And so she's kind of given me that framework which has already been pretty helpful. 

Sarah [00:40:55] That's nice. Yeah. It was on my sort of New Year's awarenesses. I won't say resolution because that's too high a bar, but New Year's awareness to really focus on the sibling relationship. I ordered Sibling Without Rivalry. See, they're in conflict right now, how appropriate? They're home from school and I can hear them fighting in the background. And so I've been working my way through that book. And I've read it before, but it was a good reminder of, like, comparison is not helpful, describing what is happening as opposed to like policing what is happening. 

[00:41:26] And so I'm trying to sort of remind myself what works and what doesn't. But it is. It's just a really constant source of stress. And Felix is a very sort of --  he has big feelings, much like Ellen, and he still pitches fits and freaks out. And, oh man, it's just wearing me down. I almost feel like I have like anticipatory anxiety when he comes home because I know I'm going to have to like tell him to do his homework, and be reasonable about snacks, and practice his piano. And it's just going to be like a constant battle ground. 

Beth [00:41:55] That's how it feels before bedtime, because our girls still go to bed at the same time. They both like that. That's the schedule that they want. We don't have to fight about the time and all. They're tired. They're ready to go to bed. But as soon as they turn the corner towards their bedrooms upstairs, they just start picking at each other. And I cannot figure out why. And I tell them, you're tired so you're picking at each other and you're not responding to that well because you're tired. And we just need to get through this process and go to bed. And we've tried lots of different frameworks, but it is so stressful every night. And, of course, Chad and I are tired and so we're not responding at our best either. And then a lot of times, because they don't really settle in from that conflict, they're up and down a few times. I just need to ask you something else. I just need a hug. I need one more this, you know, whatever. 

[00:42:46] And this this probably doesn't speak well of me, but that always feels when they get out of bed like I have clocked out for the day and my bosses followed me to my car asking me for more work. It's so frustrating. So I need some help. And what I really want to make sure to say is that I think it's possible to hear this and think, "Oh my God, like, I don't want to think about conscientious parenting in addition to everything else when I am wound so tight," which is a risk for me in this process. But what I'm really trying to think about is to think of this parent coaching a little bit like therapy because there is incredible relief in just saying out loud these things that wind me up, and saying them out loud to a person who agrees and knows and is not taking a stake in my life whatsoever other than to be here as a reflective presence with me. And I think I just really need that right now. 

Sarah [00:43:45] Well, speaking of the fact that we all feel wound so tight, in response to our last conversation, we got a DM on Instagram from Kristen who really succinctly described a lot of what we were talking about and continue to talk about. She said, "I have been inordinately anxious lately and I keep thinking nothing is different. Why am I so stressed? And I think they're in lies the answer, nothing is different. I'm still raising a toddler in the midst of a global crisis. I'm still trying to manage the needs of my family and my employer. I'm still trying to keep myself well and wondering if any given activity I could do for myself is safe if I even have the time.". 

[00:44:14] And I think she's right that things feel kind of stuck in a stressful way. We also got this beautiful reminder from Becky on Patreon that the universe keeps moving, and so do we. She wrote, "We're just coming off peak percentage change -- I'm assuming she means decrease -- in day length last week. Add to this that February is our coldest month. Even though our days have been getting longer for weeks. And just like the air around us, it takes time for our bodies to change course out of hibernation mode. So not only does February bring on winter fatigue, but our bodies are still filling the drain from lack of sunlight." 

Beth [00:44:46] I loved that. And it's such a good reminder that spring is coming and we're getting there together, and we so appreciate all of you getting there with us. We will be back with you here next week. Until then, have the best weekend available to you. 

[00:45:08] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:45:13] Maggie Patton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:45:19] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:45:24] Martha Bronitsky,  Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Heller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zugenalis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:45:41] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lily McClure, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whitehead, 

Beth [00:45:58] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McCue, Nicole Berklas, Paula Brimmer and Tim Miller.