Should We Boycott the Olympics and the Super Bowl?

Mikaela Shiffrin sits on side of course. (Associated Press)

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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EPISODE RESOURCES

BRIAN FLORES SUES THE NFL

2022 WINTER OLYMPICS


TRANSCRIPT

Newscaster [00:00:00] The United States has announced a diplomatic boycott of the Beijing Winter Olympics over China's human rights record. 

Newscaster [00:00:06] Opening ceremony just days away as Beijing is reporting some of its highest COVID cases in over a year and locking down some areas. New outbreaks as well also being reported among the athletes, which could threaten some events. 

Newscaster [00:00:19] Tonight the official start of these games comes at a very different world with nearly 3000 athletes all chasing lifelong dreams in the middle of it all. 

Sarah [00:00:38] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:40] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:42] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. Today, we're going to tackle the politics of sports. Specifically, we're going to talk about the recent class action lawsuit alleging racism in the NFL. We're going to talk about the numerous controversies surrounding the current Winter Olympics in Beijing, as well as like the Olympics generally. Then we're going to take a hard turn outside politics at the end of the show and talk about Valentine's Day. 

Beth [00:01:20] We wanted to take a quick moment to thank you again for the reviews on our first book, I think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening. We're marching toward a goal of 1000 reviews. We are less than 30 away. Less than 30 away. Thank you so much for helping us. If you have not gotten that quick review in yet we would appreciate it so very much. Also, thank you to our premium members for your patience. We've had a little infrastructure situation over here at Pantsuit Politics. We had to switch out our RSS feeds on Patreon. And if those letters make your eyes roll into the back of your heads, you are not alone. I learned a lot about what an RSS feed is in the course of this situation. 

[00:01:58] The gist of it is, if you listen using an outside podcast player to our premium shows, Good Morning and More to Say, and you have noticed some of those are missing, you just need to click the link in the show notes today to refresh that RSS feed. And, again, this has been so aggravating. It has not been a great experience for anyone. Alise has spent a gazillion hours that she would very much to have back in her life on it, and we know many of you have too. So thank you for being patient and getting through this. I hope that all of the Good Morning and More to Say episodes that you're listening to are worth the hassle and we appreciate it. If you have any questions, just reach out to us. 

Sarah [00:02:39] I do want to say going back really quick to the book reviews, here's how we know the algorithm is working. Is because some of those third party sellers are now ripping off the title of our book. And now if you search our book, the next thing that comes up is a long list of black T-shirts that say I think you're wrong, but I'm listening, which my husband, the attorney, tells me I cannot pursue for copyright infringement, which makes me mad. But like, I guess that means the algorithm is working. We've gotten their attention because now they've ripped off the title of our book for T-shirts. 

Beth [00:03:07] Worse problems to have in life then than that, for sure. Well, thank you all so much. And please, again, just if you could just give us like a sentence or two after you read the book, we're grateful. 

Sarah [00:03:28] Beth, you did a More to Say this week on the lawsuit from Brian Flores against the NFL. Give the people the rundown. And if they want the total rundown, they can go to More to Say.

Beth [00:03:39] I think the headline here is that Brian Flores, a 40 year old -- seem to be 41, I learned he's just like a week or so older than I am. A 40 year old NFL coach who has been quite successful in his tenure in the league in a number of positions, has decided that he is willing to burn this house down in order to save it.  

Sarah [00:04:02] I love that energy. I love it. 

Beth [00:04:03]  He filed a complaint as a class action, so he envisions black leadership in the NFL as well as black people who have been candidates for leadership positions in the NFL, suing the NFL and most of its teams for discrimination under federal and state laws. And what he says is that the NFL has a history, a long history dating back to the beginning of the NFL, of discriminatory behavior against black people, that the NFL has been greatly, greatly, greatly, enriched by the labor of black people. He says that the NFL's operates like a modern plantation. There is no mincing of words in this complaint. There is naming of names, there is giving of examples. 

[00:04:56] There is quoting of words and text messages. There are yearbook style pictures to show you look at the lack of representation in leadership in the league. And he says that the NFL's efforts to do better have all been hollow and especially the NFL's use of the Rooney Rule, where a black candidate must be interviewed for a head coaching position and for some other leadership positions. But that is not working and that it has resulted in people like him personally and other people like him being humiliated by what are just sham interviews. And so it's a very courageous stepping out and saying I am willing to put up. I'm willing to go into federal court and prove these very specific allegations that I'm making. 

Sarah [00:05:52] What strikes me about this complaint, and what is interesting to me about allegations of racism in the NFL, is the NFL tries. I don't know if tries is the right verb. They put on a good show, right? They do things that acknowledge that over -- what is it, like 50 to 60 percent of NFL players are black. 

Beth [00:06:17] I think it's 70. The lawsuits says 70. 

Sarah [00:06:20] So 70 percent of the NFL players are black. It's like they do the bare minimum, right? They kind of put on a show. They occasionally try. They know they have a problem. And I think what is really important about this lawsuit says, like, everything is empty if the leadership does not reflect the diversity of the NFL. Everything else, every program, every commercial, every public service announced, like whatever else you're doing is empty if the leadership does not reflect the diversity of the sport. And Brian Flores has all this evidence. But really, it's a very simple and impactful point that he is trying to make, and it's hard to argue. You can't argue. Like, whatever text messages he has, which I think are very impactful, whatever personal story, the numbers are right there in front of everybody's face. You know, every time there's an NFL game, it's a field full of diverse players and one white coach after another. 

Beth [00:07:34] I was very lucky to receive an advance copy of the book, Some of My Best Friends: Essays on Lip Service by Tajja Isen, and I started reading it last night. And I mean, she had me from sentence one. The writing is excellent and the analysis is very compelling. And I bring it up here because it reminded me so much of what you're saying, Sarah. She opens by talking about Toy Story, the first movie. And the end of Toy Story, where all the toys converge on Sid to tell him, Stop treating us poorly. And Woody looks at him and says, "So play nice." And she said that that is what 2020 felt like to her. 

[00:08:17] That all these entities, not people, but entities, started saying, "We're all going to do social justice now, and you're going to like it." And that that always ends up being pretty hollow, even as it resulted in some necessary changes, that it is mostly an end into itself. That these entities speaking about how it's going to be now is the end for them. And I think I just thought of the NFL's so clearly after reading Brian Flores's complaint and then hearing her put it that way. The entity can't seem to fix this, but it can say it's going to fix it and then tell itself it's done. Yeah. 

Sarah [00:09:03] Now, I think that's right. You. Shared an article from Foreign Affairs called The Revolution will not be privatized. And look, it's relevant to this conversation about the NFL. It's relevant to the conversation about Spotify and Joe Rogan. It's relevant to a lot of these conversations where it feels like we're asking corporate entities -- because I refuse to use the corporate person's legal analysis because I think it's crap. For what it's worth, I don't think corporations are people. I don't care what the Supreme Court says, but maybe that's part of the reason we have such messed up ideas that they are and they can fix things. I love this quote that says, "Fixing some of the world's most vexing problems will require that businesses dramatically alter their own practices, and it makes little sense to entrust systemic reform to the very institutions that themselves require change. The job of creating a more just and sustainable world cannot be outsourced to the private sector.". 

[00:09:55] I think that is so good and so true, and I think Brian Flores with this lawsuit is showing like, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. There has to be an outside force requiring the change. It's not going to work for -- you know, Exxon is not going to save us from climate change. Twitter is not going to save our democracy. Spotify is not going to fix issues of free speech. The NFL is not going to on their own address the systemic racism within our society or even within their own institutions. It requires more than that. And it just, you know, some of this is we feel the pressure to exert influence as consumers because our system and our world tells us that that's our most powerful role. But it's not. It's not our most powerful role. It is a powerful one, no doubt about it, but our role as citizens inside a democracy that can require more from people than just try hard so it looks good is really what we need to. 

Beth [00:11:02] To the point about consumers, I think so many of us feel a sense of conflict about football because of how damaging it is to players bodies because of these practices by the NFL. I know I feel a conflict about football. I don't really enjoy football that much. I'm very excited that the Bengals are going to the Super Bowl because I love the community spirit around it. And then I think, should I love that community spirit when it's associated with something that I know to be dangerous? What speaks to me so much in this complaint is that it is coming from a person who loves football. Brian Flores loves football. He wants to coach it. He was a very successful player. 

[00:11:36] The Washington Post has a great Op-Ed about him that we'll link here, that tells the story of him as a sophomore in a very high pressure situation saying to the coaches, "Give me the ball, I'll get the first down," and then doing it. And that he's always been decisive and passionate and excellent at everything he's done around football. So what I really value here is that this call for reform within the NFL is coming from a person who is deeply embedded in enjoying the sport. I think that helps resolve some of the tension for us as consumers. It is okay to love football while you say a lot of what's going on with football is unsustainable and must be fixed. I think some of that consumer as activist energy tells us, don't love the thing anymore. And this complaint to me says, no, it's fine to love the thing and also to say that the thing has to change. 

Sarah [00:12:31] Yeah. You know, look, I don't love football. I don't watch football. It's not only that I'm neutral on it, I don't like it. I think it is barbaric and damaging. But my husband loves it very much, and we were talking about this yesterday. He has loved football for a very, very, long time. But he told me -- the word out of his mouth, a direct quote was, "I love football, and I also probably think it should be illegal." Like he has come to Jesus with, I love this sport, but is the cost worth of benefit? I don't think that's it's definite. It's an easy calculus for me because I don't care about football. And if it went away, it wouldn't bother me. 

[00:13:05] But I know that's a radical position. As we talk about on Pantsuit Politics, it's important to name where you're out of step with the majority, and I understand that this is one of those places. And I hope that Brian Flores's suit brings attention to this in a way that, you know, brings attention to the strategy that says like, depending on football to fix itself is not going to work. I'm worried about the increased sports betting for what it's worth and how so much of this business model is now going to be dependent on gambling, which can be a really problematic model. 

Beth [00:13:37] And all of these social gambling models for kids, I'm concerned about that. 

Sarah [00:13:42] Yeah. I'm concerned about that. I'm concerned about CTE and  in the same way you can you can love it and want it to improve and change, you can also not love it and bring that energy in an important way too. Like, you know, I think that that's important to be the person that says, "Outside of it, I don't love it. Let me show you what I see because maybe your love is clouding your vision a little bit." Or maybe it's not just love. I mean, I think that's the other thing. It becomes -- especially with professional football, the narrative about the love of the game gets mixed up with something that is without a doubt, an industry. It's an industry. There's a lot of money on the line. And so and I feel like sometimes, you know, the money gets hidden behind this narrative about a love of the game in a really exploitive manner. And I just think that that's something we have to keep an eye on as well. And we're going to move from one fraught sports topic to another now. 

[00:14:43] Next up, we're going to talk about the Olympics. The 2022 Winter Olympics are officially underway in Beijing. Beth, maybe you've heard much like the Summer Olympics that happened five hot seconds ago in Japan, there are concerns about COVID and what it means to host a global sporting event during a pandemic. On top of that, the Olympics are in Beijing, as we just mentioned, and there are a whole host of concerns about China as the host and their human rights records. The U.S. is currently engaged in a diplomatic boycott of the games, meaning our athletes are coming. But none of our government officials are coming. Lots of people aren't watching. The ratings are way down, and that has left us wondering about the politics and maybe more precisely the ethics of the Olympics. 

Beth [00:15:40] Well, I've also more to say about this digging into the IOC and the issues, particularly with China hosting the games. There are two distinctions that are important to me to make at the beginning of this conversation because the Olympics doesn't mean one thing. And when I criticized the Olympics right now, I am really thinking about the IOC. That we have this international nonprofit that calls itself like the supreme authority of the Olympics is accountable to exactly no one. And that is conflicted six ways to Sunday politically and in terms of money. 

[00:16:20] All of the types of capital that cause people to behave at their worst are tied up in the IOC. So I want to distinguish the Olympics from the organization that runs the Olympics. And I want to distinguish China from the Chinese Communist Party because we we bring those things together. China doesn't mean one thing. So many people live there. The land itself is diverse and interesting and magnificent in its ways. I want to make sure that we're talking about what we're actually talking about and not short handing in a way that is really dismissive of a lot of good that comes both in the country of China and around the Olympic Games. 

Sarah [00:17:00] Of course, when we're talking about the issues surrounding China hosting the games, this is not new. There have been political controversies almost as long as there have been Olympics. In 1936, the Olympics were held in Berlin and the Nazis were rising to power. There were boycotts in 1956 from the Netherlands, Spain and Switzerland over the Soviets invasion of Hungary. I learned about this moment in that particular Olympics when a Russian swimmer punched a Hungarian swimmer in the face. They call it blood in the water. The 1968 games in Mexico City were preceded by a massacre of student protesters. I mean, the list is long. So this is not new, having concerns about the host countries and where the Olympics are taking place. 

[00:17:44] Now we asked a lot of you on Instagram, and there were a lot of people who said, "Okay, I'm not watching. I'm not watching specifically because of China and their stance on human rights. I mean, it was interesting to me. Axios posted a poll where it was like an actual place of bipartisan agreement. It was like 58 percent of Democrats and 56 percent of Republicans said I'm not watching enough concerns about the human rights abuses in China. And look, that matters. There's this is little something I learned about the IOC. Seventy five percent of their budget comes from the broadcasting rights. NBC paid 7.75 billion dollars for the exclusive broadcast rights to the Olympics through 2032. And so the not watching matters. 

Beth [00:18:29] So I totally respect all of our listeners who said they're not watching because they have human rights concerns, and I believe them that that's their reasons. I'm more skeptical about the polling because the way a question is asked in a poll leads to a certain answer. I think a lot of the viewership is down because we just had the Summer Olympics so recently. I think it's also that it is a bummer to watch when there's not a crowd. It's really different experience when there's not a crowd there and there's a constant reminder of the pandemic. And the United States of America is tired of the pandemic. I think there are a lot of reasons that viewership is down that have little to do with human rights and global politics. At the same time, I'm watching. I have numerous concerns about China hosting this. 

[00:19:18] I think it's garbage that China's hosting these Olympics. I think it's garbage to host the Winter Olympics in a place that has to manufacture snow, the vast majority of the snow. I think that's terrible. I think it is terrible to do it in a place that is in so many ways telling the rest of the world, no, we're coming for you. That's our intention. I think it's terrible to ask our athletes to go to a country that they have to take a burner phone too. At the same time, I am trying to like check all of my foreign policy instincts. And the main one that I am working on checking is the instinct to separate when there is conflict because our whole body of work is premised on the idea that separating does not resolve conflict. And I'm struggling with how you apply that to foreign policy because a lot of our foreign policy tools that don't involve the military are about separation. We're going to separate from you economically, you're not going to be invited to certain groups and certain meetings. 

[00:20:20] If I take your frequent questions era of how's that working for us, I have to admit that it's not. And so the Olympic Games to me seemed to be a place where I could say, "Well, isn't there more a possibility and continuing to come together than there is a possibility from separating?" And so we're  watching with a lot of appreciation for the moments when you see athletes from other countries talking with each other, and the the moments when we learn something about another place. I'm not wrapped up in heroism and excellence, that's not for me. Good for people who appreciate athletic brilliance and who think of this as the best of the world. I don't need to do that just to enjoy the games. But I do see it as a chance to just think more about myself as a global citizen. And I think that has some value. 

Sarah [00:21:18] So I think you're right. I think the reasons people aren't watching are complicated. I think some of the reasons the viewership were down, and they might not be conscious or articulated, is the truth is the controversy surrounding the Olympics in more recent years really aren't about the host countries, they are about the athletes. They are about doping scandals. They are about sexual abuse scandals. We had Simone Biles standing up and saying it's too much. It's just too much. Not to mention, now we know that becoming an Olympic athlete is built on a foundation of enormous privilege, especially in a place like America. Enormous privilege and access. And I'm not, you know, necessarily mad at any of those things, but I think at the end of the day they undercut the simple narrative people came to the Olympics for. 

[00:22:18] You know, the listeners in our Instagram who sided like I still watch it, they talked about that common humanity, but they also talked about the drama of victory and defeat and the excellence in the overcoming of diversity. And I think that's a lot of what NBC was paying for. That's why they do those three zillion packages, you know, talking about where they came from and everything like that. And I just think at the end of the day, we  know too much and we can't get back to that simple narrative. And that's a lot of the reason people aren't watching. And if I'm being honest, that's why I never watched because it never made sense to me. The idea that they're amateur athletes didn't make sense to me. How they're amateur athletes, I'm watching them on TV. I'm watching them on cereal boxes. I'm seeing how this affects their lives. 

Beth [00:23:08] You're not an amateur if you have been practicing since you were four at something. 

Sarah [00:23:10] Right. I was like, I don't understand what this even mean. And so it never made sense to me. It's not that I don't think that there  is a positive aspect and that people don't need to be inspired, I'm not a cynic. But I think the narrative the Olympics depended on to invoke that emotional response has been permanently damaged. And I think that's okay. I think it's okay to have complicated human stories and look at our systems and be like, "Is this doing what we wanted to do? I don't know anymore.". 

[00:23:46] And it's like even the global citizens part like I think is great, but I feel much more inspired as a global citizen watching the way the global scientific community came together for vaccines. You know, we live in the age of the internet, it's not like we're separated from each other. It's not like, I can't see and read and engage with the global community. Even like now travel has been limited, obviously. But the world is different, and the way we react and interact with the world is different than 1936 or even 1976. So to me, I think that's valuable to have. I just don't know if the Olympics is sort of the best way to deliver it. 

Beth [00:24:25] I don't think there is a best way to deliver it. I don't think there is a thing that gets created. I mean, a lot of what you just said, I totally agree with. It applies to everything where somebody gets famous. Being famous is bad for us. It is. Like, it is really hard to be a famous person, politician, musician, actor, model, athlete, designer, you name it. It is very hard to be famous and maintain a life that is healthy and free from being in so many ways worked over by the worse forces of humanity. It happens to people. And then to have everybody go, "But, god, you're so lucky and so admired, and that's what everybody actually wants, so it can't be a real problem." And this is what I am most worried about in this conversation because I feel in myself and even more from our audience and just people in my life, this sense of like, can we just not have anything anymore? 

[00:25:28] Is everything so bad? Is everything so problematic? Can I not read this book because of what the author said? Can I not watch this TV show because of the portrayal of this character? Can I not enjoy the Olympics because of these issues which are numerous? They're so numerous. They're terrible, right? But like, there are also numerous terrible issues with all of Hollywood. I mean, you love the Oscars, right? The depth of issues surrounding Hollywood are enormous as well. And if I experience myself as a global citizen through the internet or any number of other things, I'm self-selecting into those interest categories. What's beneficial to me about the Olympics is that these are things that I have no interest in. I'm not a huge sports person. I am not an athlete at all. And still, I find it really amazing to sit down and watch people ski once every four years. I just think it's really amazing. 

[00:26:24] I'm not going to follow it the rest of the time. I don't know these athletes at all when they're introduced to me in this way. Takes me out of myself a little bit. All good entertainment takes us out of ourselves a little bit, and I don't think people can take us out of ourselves a little bit without there being layers of problematic things behind them because they're just people too. And so how do we say I just want to see that Brian Flores version of the Olympics? And it's happening in a huge variety of ways where we say, this is deeply, deeply, problematic. There are deeply wrong things going on here, and still we can love it and we can work toward a vision of it being better because that's what we're going to have to do in our workplaces and our lives with absolutely everything. That being a person in 2022, with all the generational stuff we bring into this time and all the information available is to say, how do I continue to find joy and goodness as I am aware of everything that's broken? 

Sarah [00:27:29] I really tried to interrogate my feelings about this because they are strong. Had a lot of conversations with my husband, who is a sports person, because for me, a lot of this is about sports. And he was like, it's just entertainment. I thought, yes, yeah. It's just entertainment. And there was a really great editorial in the New York Times by a moral philosopher named Sasha Mudd about is it ethical to watch the Olympics? I love questions like that. And she talks about specifically tolerance complicity. This is a quote. One way to do this is by watching the fruits as entertainment we tolerate, normalize or even celebrate wrongdoing through taking pleasure in its results. We all know, I think, a lot about tolerance complicity, I didn't have the words for it, but I appreciate that. This is what I think about literally weekly when I think about Whitney Houston and how sad I am that she is dead or Amy Winehouse and how sad I am that she is dead. Or the effects of Michael Jackson's career. 

[00:28:25] I think I think about this a lot because I am a person who, you know, loves that side of entertainment. I love movies and television and books, and I think that this tolerance complicity is a very important and interesting question. And I think what I was finally able to name when it comes to sports -- and for what it's worth, Sasha Mudd comes down on the side of like, it's fine. She says we really need collective action, not individual ethical decisions to change something like that. And she says, "Just because we have individual complicity, it might be wrong, but not morally criticizable." Now, I will say I'm a enneagram one, so separating wrong from morally criticizable is like a very difficult task for me. But I acknowledge that it could be done. Maybe not by me, maybe not today, but I acknowledge that is a thing people could do. And I think what bothers me about sports, and I think the Olympics is the deepest manifestation of this, is that there's this undercurrent of like, "Yeah, you're watching it for entertainment, but what we're doing is a little more important." 

[00:29:29] It's this like mastering your physical body, which is just actually like morally preferable. You're not just painting a picture, you're doing something actually important and morally good. That's what bugs me about it. Because I don't care if you do it. And I can get why you would and why you would enjoy it, but don't don't wrap it up in this moralizing and say like that it's preferable to painting a picture or writing a book. It always feels like sports is trying to give answers, whereas like books and movies and TV in a lot of ways are asking questions. And so I think that's why I consume all the sports documentaries because they push back on that. That's always my experience of like those documentaries. Like they're saying, "Yeah, but the answers are not really what we think they are." Or the questions are much harder or this story we told about this person was actually not true at all from the beginning. 

[00:30:30] I think that that undercurrent of moralizing is why there's such enormous pressure on these athletes. And I think just that's what's always bugged me. And like the Olympics said, it's not just entertainment,  it's good for us. It's good for us as humanity. That's what bugs me. That's what's always sat wrong with me. And I think you get that undercurrent in lots of sports. And I would just like to name that and say, "I think it's crap. I don't think that's true." And I think the sooner we could recognize it and move on from it, the less power for exploitation, especially over the athletes, especially in these industries, especially inside these systems, it would have. 

Beth [00:31:17] I don't feel that at all on the moralizing front, I feel on the financial front because I think, you know, if I listen to an interview with an actor or director, I feel the same about the moralizing. People who are really great at their crafts think their crafts are the most important thing in the world; otherwise, why would they devote their lives to it? 

Sarah [00:31:37] True. 

Beth [00:31:38] You know, I was a band person, we were obnoxious. We were obnoxious about how good and important band was. And it was good and important to us. And it doesn't have to be to everybody. Where I think sports have an outsized value placed on them is financially. It is that the football team got more money than the band program always and forever amen. It is that professional athletes make so much more money than professionals in other lines of work and that that happens at all levels, not just the elite levels. So I share that critique, and I think way too much gets put on all of these people. There's huge controversy about Eileen Gu right now, who is an American who's skiing for China. And the conflict that anybody feels about that is way too much for a teenager to carry. 

[00:32:31] I would love for us to be able to step back and say what a beautiful thing that this young woman feels connected to two countries. We need to get better at that. That's going to be more and more of the world of the future, and we need to get better at that. And America should be able to cheer for her alongside China because she feels that she belongs to both countries, and we should take her word for that and feel it too. That's my position on Eileen Gu. And that everything else is adults asking a very young person to carry the weight of the world in an unfair way. So it's not that I disagree with any of your critiques. I just come down on the side of asking whether every single household in America ought to be tied up in knots right now about watching the Olympics. I kind of feel that our administration is responsible for our foreign policy, and our administration made a call on this to do the diplomatic boycott. 

[00:33:29] I just am going to follow along with that. It might not be the decision I would have made. I could very well see a version of myself working in the White House who said, "No, we're not sending anybody to these games." Like, I could see myself taking a much harder line on this. But I'm not the decision maker. And as a citizen, I just don't think it is my responsibility to make that call. I think it is my responsibility to talk with my kids about the problems with the games and what we're seeing and the good parts of the games and to continue to ask these questions. I'm not trying to opt out of what's hard here. I think we can not opt out of what's hard and simultaneously release some of the pressure on ourselves as individuals to decide what is right and wrong for everybody about this. 

Sarah [00:34:16] I think I would just say to your point about the corporate. Like, we used money to show what we value. And while I do agree people, you know, whatever their art form is, they think it's the best most important one. Totally true. But there is something different to me between movies, TV, music. Not that those industries aren't problematic, of course they are. I told you. I would think -- y'all, l seriously think about Whitney Houston once a week, and I'm like tied up in knots about it still to this day and probably will be to the day I die. But there's something different. And the comment in our Instagram feed that stopped me in my tracks was the person who said, "We watch the Paralympics now, that's where we channel our energy." And I thought, you know, I'm the mother of a disabled son. And I thought, like, that's it. If you want to put on a pedestal something involving the human body, man, you got to be so careful. You got it. 

[00:35:17] Because that's just so at the core of  this mind body connection relationship, how we talk about it, how we think about it, how our systems are built around it. The fact that sports is so valued and so like in it. Like we're just in it with our bodies. And I feel like sports has become this like really toxic manifestation of how badly that can go wrong. And I guess I just want to name that, and I feel like that's why the Olympics -- that's why I have such a really intense reaction to it. Because it just feels like this manifestation of thing that's just bad for all of us, this idea of Achievement. It's not that I don't think we should celebrate achievement. But when it surrounds our physical bodies, and it's put is like there's this undercurrent of like, well, anybody could do it, that's just what makes my skin crawl. Because everybody can't do it. Everybody can't do it. And so when you put it up and you say this is what we value, you're leaving so many people out. 

Beth [00:36:35] Yes. And. I think my big point of departure from you in this conversation is that I do not believe that's unique to sports. I walk around the world in a plus sized body, and fashion is just now starting to recognize that we exist and should be entitled to buy nice clothes too. There are so many ways in which we put bodies and abilities -- put even bodies aside, but abilities on a pedestal that are not accessible to everyone. It is completely true that we might not be seeing the best athletes in the world. We are seeing the families that had the resources to get these athletes to this level and that also prioritized it. There might be very wealthy people whose kids could have been the best in the world of the sport, but they prioritized something else. Like life is about choices. And so I think it's good for us to pull back on that story and see the rest of it as best we can through our flawed eyes. 

[00:37:39] I worry when we do that so critically around one thing and set it aside as unique. And I think that's just where I feel differently about this than you. And  it's funny that I'm being the pro sports person in this conversation because, again, not an athlete and don't particularly love any of it, but I appreciate it. And one of the projects of my life is just realizing that other people are not like me. Others feel differently. Others enjoy different things. Others prioritize different things. Others have different values. And I don't have to be definitive that my perspective is the controlling perspective on something. And that is what is winding me up about all the Olympic commentary this year. 

[00:38:21] That urge to say, well, the games are problematic, they're being held in a country that we've decided is bad, and so we have to opt out if we're being a good person. And that is coming from some of the same groups in our country who are constantly saying don't associate COVID 19 with China because that promotes hate, right?  And that's correct. Like, I don't want to associate China with a disease, and I don't want to associate China only with human rights abuses. And I don't want to associate the Olympics only with all of the scandals because there is more here.  I want to be able to be present with them more here around the Olympics because I think it's a good laboratory for being present and working toward better with them more here in absolutely every aspect of our lives. 

Sarah [00:39:11] Yeah, I mean, and the irony for me is like, I am calling myself an athlete for the first time in my life. Like I am doing things with the Peloton that I never thought I'd do. I'm proud of them. I get it. And it's like, if ever there was a moment where I think I would maybe lean in, it would be this one. But I just can't, because to me it's not the criticism of the Olympics that feels like I'm being pushed in a direction, it always feels like the Olympics itself that's trying to push me to one perspective. Which is like, this is good, this is good and I just can't. I just can't. I cannot. I don't think it's good. I don't think it's even close to good. I think if it wasn't for even maybe Simone Biles and the new movement -- even though I think the impact of that is good, but I don't think we're getting all that goodness because of the Olympics. 

[00:40:08] I think we're getting all that goodness for a lot of different reasons, including the pandemic, including the stress people have been under and including all the the sexual abuse scandals and the controversies and just this moment where it's like, we're no different. We're just humans, this is hard. We're struggling. And so that just feels in direct opposition to the story we tell about the Olympics, which is like it's a little bit more. It's a little bit better. It's a little bit this goodness that we're aspiring to. And it just feels like, haven't we decided that it's not, haven't we all decided it's way, way more complicated? I'm not mad at the complications. I just don't know if they can exist inside this institution that was built and is really like on a foundation of a completely different narrative. I think that's where I'm settling with the Olympics. They're just two diametrically opposed to me. So I think that's where I'm settling. What about you? 

Beth [00:41:08] I think I am settling about the IOC and these particular Olympic Games where I settle around the NFL. I am celebrating the Brian Flores's of the Olympics. The people who are saying, I love this and these things are wrong with it and we need to fix them. And I think I can continue to be a viewer and someone who appreciates the games in general and still be rooting for the people who are speaking out about all that's wrong. 

Sarah [00:41:39] I'm fully in my Enneagram oneness around both the NFL and the Olympics. There might be people that can say it's wrong, but not morally criticizable. I am not there yet. I am not there yet. And so, for me, I realize that this is an extreme radical position. But as we've articulated, there's room for that inside the conversation. And so, you know, my radical position is that it can't be saved. Like, it can't be fixed. It needs to be rebuilt on something completely different. And I do think that there are people who love it and who are capable of that. And I hope that's what we see eventually. Up next, we're going to head way outside politics, way outside sports and talk about Valentine's Day. Beth, where are you on Valentine's Day? Where do you stand on Valentine's Day? Is it morally criticizable? Is it ethically wrong? 

Beth [00:42:40] You are saying way outside of politics. And I thought, I don't know, because one of the things that's been on my mind knowing that we were going to talk about this, is that I don't particularly love Valentine's Day. But I don't want to ruin it for people who do. I don't want a teddy bear, but some people might from the person that they're in a relationship with. I think this is a pretty commercial situation. It is certainly not the day on which I most celebrate my partnership with Chad, but I'm not here to like pooh pooh it for anyone else. I enjoy Valentine's Day most through parenting. So do you do your Valentine's Day with your kids? 

Sarah [00:43:15] Mm-Hmm. 

Beth [00:43:16] What do you all do? 

Sarah [00:43:17] I mean, we just get Valentines for school. I don't know if we necessarily do something together. I I said yes but I'm not really sure that's the answer. 

Beth [00:43:24] Well, we have a special Valentine's breakfast every year. And I try to make the table look really fun. And I make something like pink pancakes or I get donuts, you know, that are chocolate and strawberry. And we have strawberry milk that morning and I usually have flowers and we do little gifts for the girls. And I think that is just a super fun, easy, low pressure way to have a special morning in the house. And I love doing that. 

Sarah [00:43:51] And I really want to respond to what you said, but you lost me at strawberry milk because I find strawberry milk to be an abomination. 

Beth [00:43:58] I don't drink it, but the kids love it. 

Sarah [00:43:59] I know. Why do they drink it? Why? Why do they drink strawberry milk? Why is it like this? 

Beth [00:44:08] Because people can like different things. That's the theme today.

Sarah [00:44:08] No, not strawberry milk. 

Beth [00:44:08] You don't need to to channel that Enneagram one energy to strawberry milk. 

Sarah [00:44:12] No, I will down the hill strawberry milk way before the Olympics or even football. I find it so reprehensible. Okay, sorry, I won't get you off on strawberry milk. Too badly that I already have. Okay, I like Valentine's Day. Listen, you guys. What else is going to prop us up in February? This is my actual question. What else do you want to happen in February? February is a short month, thank God, but it is a tough one. We're like, we're in the dregs of winter. I like winter, but we are in the dregs, y'all. We need Valentine's Day. And what I think is fun is like, let's just open it up. Let's just have some fun with it. What a gift Galentine's Day has been to the universe. I went out with my girlfriends for Galentine's day. We had a blast. 

[00:44:58]  Nicholas and I I've always had a lot of fun with Valentine's Day. Like, it's not like a very serious romantic holiday because my husband is not a serious romantic person. In college one year we had the competition of who could give the tackiest presents, y'all. Okay, I won obviously. He got me a bunch of like tacky sex things. You know, like they're like some truly ridiculous like sex toys and stuff like that. But I got us matching airbrushed T-shirts. Mine said Nicholas's girlfriend and his said Sarah's boyfriend. I still have it. I'll need to post it. I'll put it in our stories. And when I went to get it made I said -- throwback to our conversation about how everybody takes their art form seriously, I said, "I need you to make it as tacky as possible." And the man responded, "I mean, it's my art. I can't make it ugly." I went, "Oooh, I'm sorry sir." 

Speaker 4 [00:45:47] Because airbrushing is pretty cool and I can't do it. And I feel bad about disrespecting his art form. Still feel bad about it multiple years later. I still won the contest, though. I just think it's fun. I think the seriousness of Valentine's Day is silly. But like, it's a silly holiday. So just have fun because it's February and we need some fun. Punxsutawney Phil who is still alive, people out there spreading that rumor. It was a different groundhog nobody pays attention to. So like in blessings, may that groundhog in New Jersey rest in peace. But we need whatever fun we can pull out of February, you guys. 

Beth [00:46:31] And I'll take it in the smallest forms. So I mentioned that I have started doing jazzercise, which many of you are very excited about because I have found that the jazzercise people love jazzercise.  

Sarah [00:46:42] Thumbs up Jazzercise, thumbs down strawberry milk in conclusion. 

Beth [00:46:44] It is really fun. My friend, how I do it with, though, has started calling me her jazzy gal. And it brings me so much joy. Like any little piece of joy like that, I am just holding on to in February like a little diamond. And so, yes, I totally agree. Make it fun. Mary van Geffen, who's a parenting coach that I'm starting to work with and has a wonderful Instagram presence, suggested putting like little hearts or -- I'm probably going to do Post-it Notes, on your kids door in the morning just to say very specific things that you love about them. I think that's a great idea. 

Sarah [00:47:18] We did that one year. The two weeks before Valentine's Day, we each had like our own little valentines box and we would just put notes in there and then we read them. It was so fun, and they wrote some really sweet things about their brother. 

Beth [00:47:33] Oh, that's nice. 

Sarah [00:47:33] Just brought so much joy to my heart. I describe myself as a person who isn't into play, like, isn't a playful person. Maybe it's because I've adopted this narrative because I don't like sports, but that's not really true. It's just around different things. Like, I don't sit down and play Legos with my kids, but I'm very playful. I've been talking a lot about my National Day calendar. I love a fun holiday. I love a themed meal. I love like a dress up or a decoration. And that's all play too. I love all that stuff. 

Beth [00:48:02] I think we don't give ourselves enough credit for the places that we can be really playful with the kids. I dance with my girls all the time. I sing to them constantly. I have adopted this practice of any time I feel myself starting to complain, I make myself sing my complaint. Like I [Inaudible] to an opera. Like, I just do a little string and the girls think it is hilarious. And we have this really good conversation about why I do it, actually, that I try to remind myself that I really don't have anything to complain about in life. So as I need to get it out of my body, this is a positive form to do that. But giving ourselves more credit that there are like lots of ways to be playful other than 10,000 tea parties, you know, I think it's important. Maybe that's our Valentine's love to ourselves, just recognizing like there are lots of different ways to fun with the kids. 

Sarah [00:48:49] I'm fun. I'm a fun person. I love the credit. Speaking of credit, we have a new executive producer, Katherine Vollmer, who also her birthday this week. Also speaking of celebrations, all the things here, Happy Birthday, Katherine, and thank you so much for joining our executive producer team. 

Beth [00:49:07] We also got a wonderful message that we wanted to share from Norma's story. She shared this in the Pantsuit Politics gathering place on Facebook, and she was talking about our conversation about alcohol and reminding us that it's not just Mummy wine culture where alcohol plays a very significant social role. She talked about gay bars as touchstones of the LGBTQ community for so long, and she said for many people, these are the only places you can hold the hand of your partner, kiss them, dance with them and be with so many other people like you safe inside those four walls. They are so important. And she said, you know, just remember Pulse nightclub and that sometimes danger still comes to those places that feel really safe and good. And I really appreciated that addition to the conversation. 

Sarah [00:49:53] We appreciate all your messages. We read them all. We appreciate when you say no need to respond because we do read them all and we appreciate all of you in the way that you contribute to this community. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. And until next week, keep it nuanced ya'll. 

Beth [00:50:19] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:50:25] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:50:31] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:50:35] Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:50:51]  The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia. Katy Stigers, Karin True, Onika Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Valelli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whitehead. 

Beth [00:51:10] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

Maggie Penton5 Comments