Paul Pelosi, Political Violence, and the Midterm Elections

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • 1 Week until the Midterm Elections

  • The Attack on Paul Pelosi and a Climate of Political Violence

  • Outside of Politics: The Judds in Concert

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EPISODE RESOURCES

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VOTING IN THE MIDTERMS

ATTACK ON PAUL PELOSI AND A CLIMATE OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE

THE JUDDS IN CONCERT

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:26] Hello, everyone. We're so glad you're here with us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. Today, where we get from the midterm elections, we have to talk about them. And we're going to discuss how we are attempting to just filter through all of the noise in the coverage right now and focus on what matters to us as citizens and voters. Then we're going to talk about the rise of political violence through the lens of the very scary attack on Paul Pelosi Friday morning. We will end, though, with a real treat Outside of Politics. We got to be together this weekend to see the Judds in Nashville and we're going to really process that concert. I felt a lot better after being able to work this out with you, Sarah. I didn't get to do that Saturday morning, so it feels good to dissect it together now.   

Sarah [00:01:06] So glad. Before we get started, we're still celebrating our birthday. This is the second episode. Now, listen, our episode on Friday we're counting that as one. We do not count down to zero. We counted down to one. That was my call. That's how I like to count down. If you have a ever problem with that, you can take it up with me in the DMs but I won't read them. I'm just kidding. So this is our second episode. Our birthday episode is on Friday. I don't know if you knew, we have two books. I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening and Now What? And if you would like to check them out, recommend your library, purchase a copy. Or if you've already read them, leave us a review. That will be an amazing birthday gift. And then you can put it in the little form we've been linking to. And you get little party favors, digital party favors, and you can enter to win our birthday time capsule with all our iterations of Pantsuit Politics over the years. It's going to be super fun, guys.  

Beth [00:01:55] Next up, we're going to attempt to have a polling free, very healthy, grounded discussion of the midterm elections coming up. Sarah, we are a week away from the midterm elections, which means it's the worst time to take in political news. So I thought we could talk a little bit about how we're thinking about all of that political news that we're taking in and mostly how we are filtering through it. The first decision that we made a long time ago is that we just don't cover polling here at Pantsuit Politics. You are never going to tune in for a discussion with us and hear what FiveThirtyEight is saying or what the Siena Poll or whatever. We don't do that.  

Sarah [00:02:40] I don't really take in a lot of campaign coverage. I know that sounds bananas as a political podcaster, but it is stressful. I think a lot of it is harmful. I think a lot of the coverage, particularly around polling, can become prescriptive instead of just predictive. I think people hear it, it affects how they feel about the elections and the candidates. I don't think it's helpful. It doesn't help me. What am I going to do differently based on this coverage? And I can kind of get depressed thinking I'm probably not the only one who thinks that, like, what are we all going to do differently at this point?  And so beyond any commercials or campaign decisions that break through in a positive way that I will take in, that I'm interested in like campaigns sort of breaking the mold or doing something, especially this close to election day, that is getting people's attention in a sort of uplifting, empowering way that I would be interested. But otherwise, I don't want any more debate analysis. I definitely am not going to partake in the sort of horse race or this race where we are. Well, this one is so close. Anything with the headline could determine control of the Senate, I'mma hard pass on.  

Beth [00:03:51] I took in quite a bit of that, but then I don't have any desire to talk it through with you or with our audience because it is stressful. And I often find myself thinking this would be extremely valuable to me if I worked on a campaign. And I think it's really damaging because I don't work on a campaign. And I do have that sense of this is becoming more prescriptive than predictive. This is becoming intended to just create a story where there's not a story yet. I mean, the hard truth of it is we just have to wait now. We just have to wait. The votes are going to be cast and counted and we have to wait. It's how I feel about the Supreme Court. I hate reading all of these. The Supreme Court is about to hear this case and they're about to decide this. Well, it could be months before we have those decisions. I do not like getting spun up about it now. I just want to wait for the decisions and then try to understand them. And that's kind of where I am with the midterms. I want people to go and vote and I will wait for the votes to be counted and then we'll see where we are.  

Sarah [00:04:49] So here's my hot tip right now with regards to voting. If you can early vote, do it. And here's why. Because I miss my first election ever in my adult life in this year's primary because I was on my ass with COVID and there is so much sickness going around near where we live. I don't know where you live in the States and it doesn't really matter because I promise you, wherever you live, there are high rates of Flu A, RSV and COVID. So don't think I'll go on election day, although I am planning on going to election day because I do love that vibe and I missed it in the primary. Be smarter than me if you can vote early, you should because you could get sick and legitimately not be able to go. And some of these races are going to be really close. I mean, already 20.7 million ballots have been cast in 46 states. So some of y'all are out there already getting this done. But if you can, I think you should. I just don't think you should depend on health at this point in the year.  

Beth [00:05:47] I think voting early is a really good plan if your state provides opportunities to do that just because you never know what's going to come up. And then you can kind of put it behind you and legitimately give yourself permission to say, "I did my piece. I just have to wait now," because waiting is a lot of being an adult. What percentage do you think of being an adult is waiting? Like 70-ish percent.  

Sarah [00:06:09] It's high. Well, I think it's waiting/patience with things you don't have any control over. They are adjacent. There are two sides of the same coin. Maybe you're not waiting for something. Maybe you're just acknowledging that you don't have any control in this situation. And we love seeing all the ways that you guys are taking control, though, and hosting your own ballot club. I'm having my ballot club tomorrow after this episode, airs on Wednesday. I'm very, very, excited to walk through with my community members, friends and family, the different local races and what we know about that. Maybe I'll early vote after my ballot club. Nicholas is going to find out if they give away stickers where we can early vote because that is a very important part of the process to me. I'm just going to be real with you, but I'm very excited about that and we love seeing you guys write in and share your photos and experiences with your own ballot clubs.  

Beth [00:06:58] So I have a new election innovation idea. It's not really a new idea, but it's a new practice that I would like to put into place. You know how we've talked about this before, in Australia they have these big barbecues on election day. I really kind of want to have like an open house for people to come to after they vote.  

Sarah [00:07:13] It is so anticlimactic. It's so true. You vote and you're like, oh, I got my sticker. I'm so excited. That's  why people do all of that voting stuff on social media. They're just looking for a way to celebrate.   

Beth [00:07:22] Yes. And I think it would be nice to do that in person and gather. I also wonder if over time actions like that could help us just take the temperature down. We're going to talk about this in the next segment, but a lot of what we're looking for this year is how do we take the temperature down? How do we have a sense of urgency about voting? Because the issues are urgent and the decisions are urgent and it's all very important and at the same time keep our heads on no matter what the results are. And I was thinking, I wonder if just having a place to celebrate that we voted, we don't yet know the outcome, we will be here together whatever happens, I think it could be nice.  

Sarah [00:08:02] Yeah, I agree. I would love to have a place to go after I vote because there is this moment where you're, like, I want to talk about it. I want to do something. Maybe I'll vote right before my ballot club and then my ballot club could be my voting celebration. I am going to get a giant cookie cake that says vote in the middle of it. Though I already have that [Crosstalk].  

Beth [00:08:20] I like that. That's a good plan. I'm going to try to squeeze in one more ballot club, I think, before the election, because I've had a bunch of people reach out and say, "I heard it was amazing. I hate that I missed it. Can we do it again?" So I'm going to try to and I'm so happy to see all of yours. So one other piece of information that we think is important. This comes from a top cybersecurity, Official Jen Easterly. She has said there are no specific or credible threats to disrupt election infrastructure.  

Sarah [00:08:48] Well, the Russians are busy right now, as are the Chinese. So that's probably why they have other things on their plates right now.  

Beth [00:08:53] But we right now feel that our election infrastructure is secure, that you can go vote on a machine with a paper ballot, however your state does it, and feel confident that your vote will be counted as it was cast. That is a very good thing.  

Sarah [00:09:08] That is an important point because the threat environment does not just contain cyber threats, it contains other kind of threats like those posed by candidates such as Kari Lake.  

Beth [00:09:19] And it also contains threats to the physical person of people who are in charge of our elections and their administration. And one thing I will call out to you, even though the Senate races tend to get most of the national coverage, (to a lesser extent the House races) your governor, your gubernatorial races and your races for secretary of state deserve as much attention, if not more, in terms of how our elections are administered and making sure that things are done well. And also a million things that really genuinely matter in your life every single day, like roads and schools and water. So please do go vote early. And then let's turn our attention now to that threat environment. Jen Easterly calls it a complex threat environment, and we're going to talk about that and the attack on Speaker Pelosi's husband right after this break. Very early Friday morning, as I'm sure you have heard, an intruder entered the Pelosi family home in San Francisco. Paul Pelosi was there. Speaker Pelosi was in Washington, D.C.. Paul managed to get into a bathroom where his cell phone was charging and enable the 911 dispatcher to hear enough. That she realized something terrible was going on. Her name is Heather Grimes, and I think she deserves a lot of attention and praise for how she understood how dangerous the situation was and dispatched police officers arrived at 2:27 a.m. in time to see the 42 year old man who had entered the home assaulting Paul Pelosi with a hammer. So he had a surgery to repair a skull fracture and serious injuries to his right arm and hands. He's expected to make a full recovery. But this attack really aligns with reporting that we've been seeing for some time from the intelligence community about the risk of individuals fueled by a rise in domestic violence, extremism, acting on their own against people that they see as relatively easy targets in a violent way.  

Sarah [00:11:37] Beyond the reporting of the intelligence community, we've had members of Congress just crying out. I don't know what any other way to describe it. Axios did a report. They quoted Senator Susan Collins as saying, someone's going to get hurt, someone's going to get killed. I just saw a quote from Debbie Dingell saying that someone is going to die. Just incident after incident, Jayapal had somebody outside her house with a shotgun. Representative Zeldin from New York was attacked by a man with a knife. And so they've had some changes. The Sergeant at Arms said that they would cover the cost of security system, equipment and installation at lawmakers personal residences. They all got like $10,000, I think, a person. And then, of course, there's been increased security at the Capitol since the events of January six. But doesn't feel like it's enough for any of the members of Congress? I think they all feel so afraid. And who can blame them? Who can blame them? I thought it was interesting that Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who's had death threats since just the second she was sworn in. She's been calling for security detail based on the volume of threats versus seniority, which I think is how it's currently structured, because Nancy Pelosi has a full security detail. If that person had gotten into her house while she was there-- well, he probably wouldn't have gotten into her house if her security detail had been there. But let's say that he did and he got in and he had zip ties with him, which mirrors some of the scary images we saw from January six.  I seriously doubt he would have been able to get to her. But this is clearly terrifying. I mean, thinking about somebody walking through your house going, where's Nancy?  Like, they're all scared and they have every right to be. This is a terrifying environment for the speaker of the House, much less a House of representative member, much less a school board member. You got school board members out there wearing bulletproof vests or election workers. It's too hot.  

Beth [00:13:31] It's too hot. And I think it doesn't matter what your partisan affiliation is in terms of feeling that threat. We heard a lot around the impeachment votes of whispers that Republican colleagues of members who are Democrats or who are Republicans who voted for impeachment would say, "I would like to make this vote in favor of convicting the president, but I'm afraid for my family. I'm afraid for what it would mean for our safety." What struck me so much when I saw the news about Paul Pelosi is that sense of like, if I'm an election worker in Pennsylvania, Arizona, and I see that this can happen at the home of the Speaker of the House who does have that level of protection. How does this feel to me when I know that there are threats and discussions and explicit conversation in radical groups that think of themselves as militias or paramilitary, even though I think that's an unfair characterization of what they are and what they do. They're explicitly talking about targeting these local elections and taking over at the city and county level.   

Sarah [00:14:42] Well, you had those guys in Arizona like all outfitted up, sitting outside a vote drop box until the police came up and were, like, you have to go. But they were scary looking and they had their faces covered. They had all these weapons and they were parked right by one of the drop boxes for ballots. I mean, in some ways, she is a part of the whole and in some ways she is a very special case. It is 100% entirely predictable when every freaking campaign from dog catcher in Sheboygan to the hottest Senate races in the country include her face as the villain. Every single one of them include this villainization, scary black and white imagery surrounding Nancy Pelosi. She is a real life human being. I know that's hard to imagine and remember, but she is. And it's, like, come on. You are putting her in increasing and increasing amounts of danger because of this desire to make her the stand in-- and I don't think it's an accident that she's a woman--  for this scary, villainous Democrat.  

Beth [00:15:56] This is what we do, though, we cannot handle that balance between  there are unique factors in this case and also it is part of a predictable trend. Some of the comments from Kevin McCarthy over the weekend sounded to me just like what he would have said if there had been a school shooting over the weekend. This zeroing in on a particular person, classifying that person as unstable, putting all of the responsibility on that person and their lack of stability, pivoting to some message about general crime, but not being willing to say, okay, of course there's a piece of that. She is a human, an individual human, and so is this attacker and so is her husband, and they're all going to bring unique factors to the situation. The fact that her husband figured out how to get 911 on the line at all is amazing to me and I think very dependent on some specific life experiences that he's probably had. Okay. Always it involves individuals and always it involves societal trends and forces. And it's very difficult to look at where we were when Steve Scalise was shot at a congressional baseball game to now. Statistics tell us that the number of threats, the number of violent incidents, the number of arrests made around plots to harm political leaders has increased dramatically. And so you cannot look at that and say, well, it's just this one guy because it's not. Even even with all of the unique factors surrounding this one guy, there are lots of that one guys out there. And it calls on all of us to say, what's our collective sense of responsibility about this?  

Sarah [00:17:41] Because, I mean, and many of these threats-- I know that there is a way to tally as best you can who gets these threats. But in some ways that disguises what's going on there, because the Republican lawmakers getting threats from impeachment and the type of person who breaks into Nancy Pelosi's house are coming from the same sort of ecosystem. This far right, empowered, enabled (particularly during the Trump presidency) ecosystem that fuels domestic terrorism. And that's what this is. Assassination attempts on elected officials is a part of domestic terrorism. And it's a terrifying, very scary symptom of what we're seeing, which is this growing far right authoritarian part of the political spectrum that has been enabled and empowered over the past several years.  

Beth [00:18:36] And I think it's important for us to all understand that while you and I, Sarah, might view them as enabled and empowered and objectively I think that's true, there are so many forces within that group that feel disempowered. That feel almost like they had everything. They had a Republican president, a Republican Congress, and they still didn't get everything that they want. I listened to an interview over the weekend with Robert Draper about his new book, Weapons of Mass Delusion. And he talked about why Marjorie Taylor Greene ran for Congress and why she feels so bold and invited to lecture Kevin McCarthy on how he ought to run the House of Representatives if he becomes speaker again. Her feeling was Republicans had control and didn't do everything that the base wanted, and she ran because she felt like if we win, we ought to win. We ought to get all of it. And there is no sense. And this is where I really start to get in my head about how do we make positive change? There seems to be no sense that we can win and still not get everything we want because that's what's required of us in a democracy. That's a beautiful thing about the democracy. You can win and still not get everything you want. And so on the right, that has started to look like, well, then let's take it by force. And it's just a very scary moment to me when we cannot see that all of us have to cede a little bit of space to each other. That's the price of living in a country where we're free.  

Sarah [00:20:19] That's what's so scary about moments like this is because they feed that cycle, because then you have people who say, "We can't cede anything. This is who we would be cedeing things to," is this far right authoritarian side of the Republican Party. You can't see anything. You can't compromise. And, look, I don't think you have to worry about the call to compromise with Marjorie Taylor Greene. She has no desire to compromise. She has no real desire to govern for what it's worth, because that shit can be boring and she likes to be on TV. So I think that that's what we get caught up in. It's like it feeds it instead of de-escalating and saying this is a call for de-escalation. It's hard to look at somebody like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and say, well, we should really de-escalate right now. It's not these people showing up on my voicemail or outside my apartment. So I can't really blame the lawmakers who are terrified. And it's also terrible because as we're in this election day where both my Republican state representative and my Republican state senator have no opponents. This is part of the reason why. Why would you run, especially in a place where it'd be hard to win anyway, with an intense far right contingent of the voting populace and expose yourself to this. So it's not just hard on the people in power. It shrinks the pool of people who will run for office. And so it's hard to sort of de-escalate and say we have to get out of this violent, chaotic swirl because it makes everyone fearful. And it puts you in this sort of scarcity mindset and compromise and sort of working together is the last thing you want to do.  

Beth [00:22:03] I think that what further exacerbates that sense that the stakes are too high for us to actually de-escalate is the immediate swirl into conspiracy about what happened here. It's been really disheartening to me how fast certain corners of the Internet pivot to, well, here's what actually happened in Pelosi's house. And it's a narrative that has nothing to do with what actually happened in Pelosi's house.  

Sarah [00:22:36] How did you feel about it coming from the new head of Twitter?  

Beth [00:22:39] Honestly, it was a little bit clarifying to me to see it from the current head of Twitter. Because this theory that has been bubbling around in my mind for a while is that we're losing a sense of what's real? And I don't just mean what's factual or true or a separation of online versus in person, but just like a sense of what it means to have a real feeling. What it would mean to really endure a person. What it would mean to actually get what you say you want. And so when someone like Elon Musk traffics in those theories, you can tell that he doesn't care if he's right or wrong. It's fun. It's interesting. He's being the provocateur. He's keeping it spicy out there. And I'm sure that if you're Elon Musk, it is hard to keep a sense of your place in the world and to keep your feet on the ground and to recognize the ripple effects of everything you say and do and think. I've thought about this a lot in connection with the controversy over Taylor Swift's music video for Anti-hero. I'm sure that there is a level at which having any sense of the way people are going to interact with what you create or share or say is hard. I have a lot more empathy for Taylor Swift in this situation than I do for Elon Musk, just to make that really clear. But it's been bubbling up for me in a lot of different contexts. And when I saw that he tweeted a link to this bizarre false idea about what went down at the speaker's house. I just thought this is his version of play. And I had the same feeling when I read the indictment against some of the men who plotted to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. This is their version of play. They get together. They dress up in tactical gear. They train. It is a way, I think, to feel something. And I get that because I think it is very hard to feel, especially at this moment in history. But I want to find some channels for that, because this is not it.  

Sarah [00:25:00] Well, we're recording on Halloween, it's why I love this holiday. It's why I passionately advocate for costume wearing because it is a great way to play as an adult just to try on another identity. I currently have very long acrylic nails on and I feel like a different person. It's changed my whole life since I put them on 24 hours ago. But it's like it is this weird sense of, like, I get to be dramatic. I get to be super sexy if that's not how I walk around in my everyday life. I get to try on something different and it is much better to try on something different when the stakes are how you look at a Halloween party and not someone else's life. But if you are wrapped up in a media environment that tells you the big, scary Democratic Party is out to destroy America. And they're going to put socialism in place and they're going to put up or communism in place or my new favorite I write about, which is we're just trying to hide the fact that the Democrats want to undo the Civil War, which is just ahistorical and doesn't acknowledge that the parties changed, the word stay the same. I think that is part of the problem. We need a different word for the Republican Party right now because it's not what people think of as the Republican Party, but that's a whole different show. I agree. I think that there is this lack of reality and we have a media environment that will allow you to just swim around and wait out whatever reality you've created until that "reality" bumps up against the actual real world, often in violent ways.  

Beth [00:26:41] I went to this church retreat and we were talking about a story about an Old Testament prophet, and it was essentially the hero's journey as we were discussing. Joseph Campbell's formulation of the hero's journey, which we see in everything from Star Wars to [Inaudible]. I mean, it is what art is often about, what good story is about. The sense that you have some challenge that calls you away from home and on your path you meet allies and foes and all seems lost at some point, but then you triumph and return home wiser and better for the challenge. And a question was posed, like, where do you see yourself on this hero's journey? And I thought, I don't. I don't see myself on a hero's journey right now. I have a great and wonderful life, but it does not have a huge sense of momentum. I don't feel like I'm striving for anything in particular right now. I don't feel that I have enemies or that these are my allies and we're really in it together, getting through something hard and difficult. I mean, I have wonderful friends, but it just doesn't have that drama about it. And there are ways in which I feel very appreciative of that. I think that is a beautiful part of getting older, that you can feel a sense of contentment, but there are layers and layers of privilege and luck that have conspired in some ways to give me that sense of contentment. And even with all of that, there are moments when I feel myself thinking, where is the drama of things? I do need something right now to take me to a different place? Now, my answer to that has been something like piano lessons instead of joining a group that has tactical trainings on the weekends in the woods. But I am able to register a sense of empathy about the fact that a lot of modern life can feel pretty mundane and can leave you searching for how to be part of something bigger than yourself. I think Hamilton did a wonderful job of showing all the dimensions of people who kind of have that sense of, like, wouldn't it be great to die for a cause? These are conditions of being a person that have always existed. I think they exist even more in our modern landscape. And that to me is why, if you're running for Congress, maybe you say in this field where people are searching for a lot, maybe I don't compare my campaign to a target practice. Maybe I don't talk about my political opponents as enemies. Maybe I turn the volume down on all of that. Even as I say that what I stand for and do is important because it is not just a few unstable individuals out there. It is a whole society trying to figure out who to be right now.  

Sarah [00:29:36] Look, I'm on the hero's journey right now through Maggie Haberman's book about Trump, the confidence man and they have this moment where they're talking about there was a meeting of sort of the Republican power players, the Republican establishment, when Trump first announced his candidacy because they were concerned. And Maggie Haberman is like, it's very surprising to watch these people with all this power. Why were they feeling so powerless? And I thought because they understood this space better than the rest of us because they'd been playing to their fears and campaign ads for decades. Exactly just what you were describing.  Like, that's why. That's why they knew immediately what a threat he was, because they didn't have the luxury of blowing off that segment of the voting populace because they'd been exploiting it for so long. They knew they how these messages were going to land. They knew there was fertile ground for his particular type of populism and this particularly sort of like this threat, this playing to the threat, this sense that you're a fighter, that you are on the hero's journey, that you are fighting against something, you're fighting against real life villains. And what a coincidence that it's actually just really Nancy Pelosi the whole time. They knew that. They knew that this was going to land and it was going to be hard to fight back against. Because, again, they'd sown the seed. They laid all the groundwork for him and continue to do it. And you can't go back when you're counting just statistically and looking at this environment. I mean, it's like quadrupled since he became president. Since he would sit in political rallies and say, "Punch that guy with the Black Lives Matter shirt, basically, or definitely stand by while other people punched him. It's just this continued virus spreading throughout our political commentary that met the moment for a lot of people. And I think you're right. It's not just these sort of one offs. Obviously, we have a growing crisis here. And I think there was a lot of miraculous things that happened between the 911 operator and Paul Pelosi's actions himself. I think it is a miracle that he is still alive and it is not much worse.  

Beth [00:32:02] And I don't know what the answer is for our elected officials because surely it cannot be that in order to serve in office you need to be more and more disconnected from your constituents to keep your physical person safe. But I saw that some members have spent less and less time in their districts, are doing more by teleconference, zoom town halls. And I understand that that is also a certain path to decline. And I don't have a good sense of how we do better here other than the work that you and I have been advocating for and trying to practice since we started this show seven years ago, just that in our lives, in the places where we have influence, trying to just bring it in and figure out how to see each other. And I know some of you are hearing from family members the conspiracy theories about what this was instead of it being an attack. And I think we just have to look at the people we love and say, "I really think that you know better than that. I really think you do. And I love you for so many reasons. And one of them is that deep down, I know that you know better than what you're telling me right now." I hope that we are not continually talking about election related violence over the next couple of weeks and that we can return to the beauty of your ballot clubs and all of the action that many of you are taking. I know many of you out there are poll workers, that you're volunteering for campaigns and knocking doors and we just see and uplift all of that effort. Please keep sending us your pictures and your emails of stories from all of that local work. And our thoughts to the Pelosi family as Paul Pelosi continues to recover, hopefully well, and as that family processes the trauma that they have just been through. We always end the show by talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics, and we have the rare opportunity to do something fun together in person. Over the weekend we saw Wynonna Judd in concert in Nashville with friends. It was like a real celebration of powerful women in country music.  

Sarah [00:34:21] I feel comfortable saying we saw the Judds in concert because despite the passing of Naomi Judd, tragically, we did celebrate the Judds career and their music quite a bit. Our announce special guest was Trisha Yearwood, who is my absolute most favorite female country singer. Martina McBride opened the show. So they came out and sang Girls Night Out with Wynonna together, which was fantastic. And then, of course, my beloved Brandi Carlile came out and performed. Just happy as a clam, I just sat there, sang along with the songs, did some backup. I adore her. I think she is the best human. She has very much taken Wynonna sort of under her wing. Wynonna was at my Brandi Carlile concert in the summer, and then Brandi came to this one, and I think she went to the one at Rupp Arena as well. She's been very supportive of Wynonna, I think, through this tragedy, which just confirms everything I know and love about her.  

Beth [00:35:19] Now if you're, like, who are the Judds?   

Sarah [00:35:22] What? No. No one says that. Who says that?  

Beth [00:35:25] Listen, I went to buy your Christmas present before I came down so I could bring it to you in person. And they asked me what I was doing and I said, "I want to go see the Judds." And they were, like, "Who?" And I got them to it was a concert. But there are people who don't know. So listen. Beloved mother-daughter country duo from Kentucky. Ashley Judd is Wynonna's sister. Naomi, the mother, tragically died by suicide earlier this year after a long struggle with mental illness. This tour had been planned before her death and Wynonna decided to go on with it. It was so moving to me, though, how honest she was about how that decision was a struggle, about how she is still struggling. She is so sad and she did not try to hide how sad she was and it was really special to me. I felt like I was there not to be entertained, but to participate in a commemoration of what Naomi and Wynonna did together and what their family has been through.  

Sarah [00:36:29] Well, even before the concert started it was basically like a live karaoke hour of my nineties country playlist, which is amazing. If I do say so myself. The last song they played before the concert started it was Brooks & Dunn Boot, Scootin, Boogie. And it was just like we were at a party. It was amazing. Everyone was singing along. This man behind us y'all who looked like a Harley-Davidson biker, man, and he's like fifties. I have never heard anyone sing so passionately, "Mama. He's crazy. He's crazy over me." Such a delight.  

Beth [00:37:02] He had a beautiful voice.  

Sarah [00:37:04] Yeah. Everybody was singing along. We had such a good time. Now I did fall down a Wikipedia bit of a hole about what I know now. This family has had a hard life, any way you slice it, from beginning to end. Naomi got pregnant with Wynonna when she was 17. She married Ashley Judd's father. Wynonna did not know this man was not her father until she was an adult. Ashley didn't know it either. Then they had this meteoric success for about eight years. Then Naomi retires because she has hepatitis. Turns out she had a different kind of hepatitis. She comes back, Wynonna is married, divorced, has two kids, then gets married to this other guy who is then arrested for sexually assaulting a child. Then she marries Cactus, the drummer, who was there that night and was adorable with her, but he lost his leg in a motorcycle accident. Her daughter is in prison for eight years, has a face tattoo and is pregnant with another inmate. You guys, she didn't even get out for Naomi's funeral. This is a tough road. This is a tough situation this family has been through. Made of steel. And I was just reading all this because I kind of started thinking about Ashley and Wynonna are sort of known for having tough parts in their relationship. And especially they say every time. Both of them say every time "We don't agree on everything." And I have to believe some of that is politics. There was a moment during the Women's March where Ashley sort of said this monologue about like, "Well, you voted for the grabber."  And I was thinking about her and I was thinking about Brandi Carlile, honestly, because we all know what Brandi Carlile's politics are. She is a very, very, very famous lesbian, married with kids, advocate for LGBTQ people. And I thought, man, I love that you love her like she's family. I bet y'all don't agree on much either. Not for nothing, I bet she doesn't agree with any Tucker's politics either. And I just thought I think especially is like a very famous liberal person who's out politically. Like, there's a sense of like you have no space because you have the privilege not to give space to anybody, right? You can say, like, we fall in line or I don't have to be around you. I'm famous. I don't have to bring you into my life if I don't like your politics. And it just makes me love her even more. And Ashley that they like clearly-- and Wynonna is doing the same thing. Although she's way less political. She's very open about, like, I'm not political. I'm not doing that. It's toxic. But I started kind of going down this road about, like, man, I bet their politics are nothing alike. And I love that she loves her and that she has shown up for her in this tough time. And she's there and she's working through it because, like, I love Wynonna. I loved every song she sang. I think she's an amazing performer, and I bet she's a hard person to be around. I'm just going to be honest with that.  

Beth [00:39:47] I think she's honest about that. She has given that vibe off since she first burst on to the scene. She clearly says and does exactly what she decides to say and do. There was kind of an awkward moment at the end before she went off stage where she just burst into reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't think there was an American flag in the building at that time. It was really out of the blue. And I'm not anti Pledge of Allegiance. I have some complicated feelings about it, but I've never seen anyone just spontaneously do after their encore. It was strange.  

Sarah [00:40:21] Yeah.  

Beth [00:40:22] So I think that that is all just kind of hanging out there with this family. And it's a really interesting thing to see something that is not so carefully managed, but they are just living in public and struggling in public. And what I really loved-- this was a tough concert for me. I had been at the hospital with my mom for four days, so the whole fragility of life, mother-daughter, I found this difficult. When you said that Brandi Carlile had taken Wynonna under her wing, it was so impactful to me to see that all of these women feel that way about each other. There seems to be something very reciprocal going on. Trisha Yearwood sang as Naomi for a while. She did not do her big Trisha Yearwood voice when she was in the Naomi slot with Wynonna, she sang it like Naomi did, who was always a smaller voice than Wynonna's. And Brandi Carlile talked about and acted like Wynonna was the true first amazing woman country music performer. They all got down on one knee for her. They let it be her show the whole time. And to see just the generosity of spirit these women towards one another, I thought it was just-- I just watched it and I thought, you know what? I rarely look at famous people and think I'm taking a note, but I took a note.  

Sarah [00:41:55] Yeah. I mean, even when Wynonna was at Brandy's concert, it kind of became about Wynonna. She, like, sat on the stage and just watched the show for a while. Hilarious. But Brandi has been very public about  the Judds were her first, second and third concerts as a young person. So she really just adores them. It is evident. I know this is supposed to be about Wynonna, but I keep talking about Brandi, but this is my favorite thing about her. I love that she like goes back to these people. It was like Tanya Tucker does not have the respect she deserves for the role she played in country music history, especially as a woman. Went out there produced a record, got that woman a Grammy and like brings Joni Mitchell out to perform for the first time. Now, her and Joni Mitchell are doing a show at the gorge next summer. Like just that generosity of spirit. It reminds me of my other favorite, Oprah, when she did the Legends Ball and said, like, "For my birthday, I'm going to celebrate all these women who were essential to me and my career." I just think it is the best. It is the best. I want to have my own Legends Ball one day really bad. I want to just have a Legends Ball and bring Oprah on and just give her nominee hearings even though she doesn't need them.  

Beth [00:43:04] I want that for you, too. I would like to come when you hold a Legends Ball.  

Sarah [00:43:07] It would be so much fun. Brandy would be there. Wynonna would be there. I would invite Wynonna to my Legends Ball for sure. She could come. She should come. She is a legend. Under any rubric, however difficult she might be as a human. She is absolutely a legend.  

Beth [00:43:21] And she should bring Cactus with her because also uplifting in this concert was seeing how much he adores her.  

Sarah [00:43:26] He loved her, y'all. He kissed her and then she gave him a mean look. And then she had to reapply her lipstick. And she said, "I told him not to."  

Beth [00:43:33] She said, "He's not supposed to touch my hair or my lips."  

Sarah [00:43:36] I love it. But it was like a wink and nod. They've been married a while. They've been marry about 10 years. I'm happy for her.   

Beth [00:43:47] Me too. Well, thank you all so much for joining us today for another wide ranging conversation. We would love to hear your thoughts on anything we discussed. We particularly do want to keep hearing about all the work that you're doing towards good, healthy, democratic elections. You can send your thoughts to us at hello at Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. Just a reminder, we have two more episodes until our birthday episodes. We'd love for you to check out our two books. I Think You're Wrong, but I'm Listening and Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided About Basically Everything. And if you have read them, we would just love for you to leave a review of them wherever you purchase books. We'll be back in your ears on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

Beth [00:44:42] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:44:47] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:44:53] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:44:57] Martha Brzezinski. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holliday. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracy. Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers Karen True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:45:32] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  


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