Midterms and the Long Shadow of Donald Trump

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Preparing for the 2022 Midterm Elections

  • The Ongoing Influence of Donald Trump

  • Outside Politics: Fall Fun

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EPISODE RESOURCES

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PREPARING FOR THE 2022 MIDTERM ELECTIONS

THE ONGOING INFLUENCE OF DONALD TRUMP

OUTSIDE POLITICS: FALL FUN

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:25] Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us for a new episode. We're well into October now, less than a month away from midterm elections. We've been preparing for these elections all year in our series about Colin Woodard's American Nations. We'll link that playlist for you if you'd like to revisit it. But today we're going to get down to brass tacks and talk about some of the important considerations in midterm races and what you can be doing to prepare. Then we will return to the Ballad of former President Donald J. Trump. We're always trying to find the right balance of coverage between the past and the present. So today we're going to go through a roundup of issues concerning the former president and try to answer some of your questions about some of his greatest hit insults. And then Outside of Politics, we both enjoyed some fall fun over the past week and wanted to share a little bit with you about that.  

Sarah [00:01:10] Before we begin, we wanted to tell you about a new partnership for Pantsuit Politics that we're very excited about. We are partnering with ABLE, which creates go to wardrobe pieces that empower both the women who wear them and the women who make them. And we take all our partnership seriously. And it was a big step for us to say yes to this more in-depth partnership than we've ever done before. And we wanted to really talk about why.  

Beth [00:01:33] We had an incredible opportunity to visit ABLE headquarters in Nashville and see how the pieces are created, what the philosophy really is, meet some of the employees and leaders there. And we just love the mission. ABLE partners with women in the United States and all over the world who are living difficult circumstances. And it's a huge variety of what those difficult circumstances are. But it's really about helping women begin their own creative businesses and support them in ways that are empowering.  

Sarah [00:02:03] We also love, love, love how their customer service works. Their products are guaranteed for life. And this is the crazy part. You can swap sizes-- like, forever. Forever. That's incredible to me because when you're investing in pieces of clothing at a certain size-- life brings changes. Babies, chronic illnesses, moves. Anything.  

Beth [00:02:32] Just aging. Yeah. 

Sarah [00:02:33] Aging. When you're investing. And you know, well, I'm investing in this, but if eventually it gets too small, I can just swap it out. That's incredible.  

Beth [00:02:41] And, in addition to that, creation of pieces that are supposed to last forever, the entire manufacturing process is focused on sustainability. They recycle a lot of pieces. All of the leather goods are upcycled from leather scraps or from discarded leather pieces. There is a huge focus on water usage and the process. It's just very impressive. And you can tell that they are pushing to get better and better all the time, to be good stewards of the earth as they create these wonderful pieces.  

Sarah [00:03:11] And now let me say this, and I hope it doesn't sound shallow. That is all amazing, truly. The politics of the company are fantastic. And also, if their clothes were ugly, I would not endorse them. At the end of the day, I want something that looks stylish and that I want to wear. And I think I cannot emphasize enough that that is what we have found. I like their clothes. I think they look great and I don't want to downplay that that is also very important. We were just giving a pep talk to Alise because, you know, post-baby and we're both in our forties-- it's time to spend more on clothes. It's just you got to invest in the good pieces the older you get. And specially if I'm going to invest in something, I want it to look fantastic. And I have not received a single thing from ABLE that I have not gotten compliments on as I move about in the world.  

Beth [00:04:17] And I am using and wearing what I have from ABLE like almost daily. I just really like the pieces. They're very versatile. So what does this partnership mean? We want to be really transparent with you about this because we haven't done anything like this before. We are going to be able to offer you a discount code. It's Pantsuit15. All capital letters. We'll put that in the show notes as well. We will occasionally share our favorite pieces with you and tell you what we like about them. And for that, we are going to receive payment from ABLE. So when you purchase using that discount code, you directly help support the work that we do here at Pantsuit Politics. And we really appreciate that from both you and from ABLE and are excited to continue to share with you about ABLE. Next up, we're going to talk about the midterm elections. Well, it's October and it's like October, October all of a sudden.  

Sarah [00:05:17]  It's going too fast, I don't like it. It's one of my favorite months. It's so beautiful. And it's already the 11th, as we're recording, will be the 12th by the time it comes out. Almost halfway through, slow down.  

Beth [00:05:29] It's too much. So that means some people are already voting and early voting is going to open up in the next week or so in lots of states. So we want to really start to pay attention to the midterms. We've been working our way there kind of slowly. I like that we did that, that we thought about just the country and the different cultures within the country first, because I cannot spend every day with the ups and downs of polling on various Senate races, but it is really time to get our brains in that space.  

Sarah [00:06:01] Well, that's definitely where the national media is. I keep opening the New York Times app or following up my news podcast and feeling like all the news is either international or the midterms. There's not much in between.  

Beth [00:06:16] The Supreme Court will hear arguments in such and such today. It's like the bottom bullet point on everything.  

Sarah [00:06:23] Yup. Yup.  

Beth [00:06:23] The polling has been hard to follow and the political analysis attached to it because everything's just really volatile this year. If you want to know what the midterm races are looking like, I think the truest thing is no one has any clue.  

Sarah [00:06:36] Yes. In the coverage, this comes up over and over again. Traditionally in a midterm after a new president's inauguration, that president sufers losses in the House and the Senate, but this year we're just not sure what's happening. I'm glad that analysis has shifted because it was so strong in the beginning when we were talking about a red tsunami and the Republicans taking both the House and Senate handedly, that it never felt right to me. It was bothersome from the beginning. I thought that analysis was lost in a time that no longer exists where, yeah, that was the traditional rules of politics. And I'm not saying that they don't apply at all. But since the pandemic and our current very volatile economic situation, not to mention post Dobbs, the Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade, it just feels like there's a lot of unpredictability in American politics. Not to mention that we have a former president very active inside the midterms in a way that we have not seen historically. There's just a lot going on here that to draw traditional conclusions seems fraught to me.  

Beth [00:07:54] And even as you bring in different issues, it's hard to draw traditional conclusions about them. We've heard for our entire lifetimes that it's the economy, that the economy should drive the midterms. It is really difficult to precisely describe what's going on with the economy right now. There are positive indicators. There are negative indicators. The experience of being a person I think depends a lot on where you live. I know for me everything still feels like kind of a mess. I know it's on the right track, but it's hard to eat at a restaurant right now, and it's hard to do air travel. And a lot of places, you just feel like we're still kind of in recovery mode because we are. So commentators will say, well, the GOP has the advantage on the economy. And I think, why?  

Sarah [00:08:42] Do they?  

Beth [00:08:43] What policy proposals would suggest that they would be managing this recovery more effectively? And what pieces of the economy and what parts of the country matter enough to give them that advantage? I don't know.  

Sarah [00:09:00] Well because it's not about policy proposals with the GOP in particular any more, the extremism of the far right, the campaign focus. I mean, it's not just like they're mentioning it and moving on; the focus on the fact that they believe the 2020 election was stolen-- falsely believe that the 2020 election was stolen. And that there's all these other rigged elections out there. I mean, I think some of the most disturbing polling is around will you believe the results of the elections in the midterm? And you see  68% of Republicans saying, "Well, if my candidate loses, no, I won't." That's disturbing to me. But that's where we're at. We're not talking about policy anymore. We're talking about sort of ideological warfare, be it centered on inflation, be it centered on crime, which is definitely a focus of many Republican Senate candidates across the country, or be it focused on just Biden and why he's terrible.  

Beth [00:10:00] I think it's still true that we always like people better when they're interviewing than when they're in a job. And that's true across politics and every other realm of life. So I understand why his approval ratings are pretty low right now. I understand why there's a gap between his approval ratings and many Democratic candidates approval ratings. I don't know how you poll issue by issue successfully among fairly low information voters when Republican campaigns are being run in such an extremist way. But then if you are just a low information voter and maybe you've caught some commercials, you're getting hooked in by worry about crime or whatever that one thing is and it's bugging you. Worry about gas prices, worry about grocery prices, legitimate real things, but you're only being sold the worry, not any solution to the worry. I don't know how any polling could adequately capture what kind of situation that creates when people show up to vote.  

Sarah [00:10:59] I think that's a really important point to remember as we see these particularly far right extremist candidates. I read a profile of Kari Lake, the Republican candidate for the governor of Arizona, and the writer was just making the argument that, like, she does Trump better than anybody else. It's slicker. It's more appealing to moderates. And I think all that's true. I think Kari Lake is scary and should not be the governor of Arizona under any circumstances. But I think that's just important to remember if we're talking about Kari Lake or J.D. Vance in Ohio or Adam Laxalt in New Mexico, that these people are having some campaign success. But eventually they will have to govern. They will have to vote on things. They will have to speak regularly, even more regularly about decisions they've actually made instead of just attacking their opponent in the media. And I just have to remind myself of that, because I think this time of year around the midterms, especially when you see somebody like Kari taking off, you get those profiles and you're, like, oh, no, they're going to win until the end of time and it's going to be the end of everything. You have to remember, no, even if they do win-- which I definitely hope they don't-- they'll make mistakes. They're going to still have to get tested in a bigger way than even these campaigns are testing them.  

Beth [00:12:20] I was thinking about something similar this morning, reading about how there are some senators back to work on the National Defense Authorization Act, which is always an extremely important and very complex piece of legislation. It has 900 amendments this year. We get 100 people in the United States Senate to consider a bill like that that has life and death consequences for people across the world. Do we think Herschel Walker is up for that? For that kind of intense work? For that kind of decision making? And I'm not trying to be ugly about anyone, but I think campaign season takes us out of the job too much and we forget what this is actually about. That work has to be done annually. Can you do that job? I don't think so. And so getting serious about the midterms feels very important to me. And it's hard to get serious when you look at the races, but usually I get really down when I go to the Cook Political Report because you see how few races are competitive. This year there are a lot of competitive races, very, very competitive races compared to past years. So I am encouraged at least that it's tight. There's a part of me that wants it to be, like, no one takes someone like J.D. Vance seriously. That's not the world we live in. But those are close, close races. And I find some encouragement in that at least.  

Sarah [00:13:52] What I think is encouraging when you speak of these people have to do the work, is we've seen work coming out of Congress. We've seen big pieces of legislation that both reminds people that, one, there's actual policies on the line. And, two, that this work can and needs to get done and that these people running need to be serious people that can do that work. I hope that's the case. I think it is. I think there's been too many pieces of big legislation with too much media attention for it did not have any impact. And I also just think Post-Dobbs we do not understand the influx of new voters, of new female voters, of maybe irregular or low information female voters that are now fired up and ready to go. As the saying goes, I wish there were more toss ups. Thirty toss ups in the house is not enough for me. For what it's worth, 435 representatives is not enough for me. Let me just say that one more time. Let me sing that song since it's election season. But I think in the Senate in particular, I'm always encouraged when you're seeing reports out of Ohio, well, this wasn't supposed to be competitive and Democrats have made it competitive or North Carolina, which I think is great. So that is encouraging. And I think that there are, for all the Herschel Walkers, the campaigns that make you just grit your teeth and roll your eyes and think, what are we even doing here? There are campaigns where real debates are happening. The voting is going to happen no matter how serious the candidate is. And so that's what we have to keep our eye on.  

Beth [00:15:32] And we are talking mostly about national races, but please remember your state and local races. They are a huge deal. Our friend Carol has been saying about secretary of state races that democracy is on the ballot, making sure that you have a secretary of state who wants people to be able to vote, is willing to do the incredibly tedious work of ensuring that county by county people are trained to do what they need to do and have the resources to do what they need to do, and then will count those votes accurately and report them accurately without bringing their personal biases into it matters tremendously.  

Sarah [00:16:08] There are also ballot initiatives. We've talked on the podcast about the constitutional amendment on the ballot in Kentucky that would ban all access to abortion, that we are both working to defeat. There are other ballot initiatives. Lord knows California is always struggling through a big ol fat book of ballot initiatives and referendums. And so paying attention to that getting together, Beth, you're getting together with some people in real life in your town to talk about what's on your ballot, I think that's a great idea.  

Beth [00:16:36] My friend Bethany and I were talking about all of the local races that really matter a lot to the kinds of issues that we've been discussing and also to roads and safety signage, and parks, and libraries (things we really care about) where you don't get opportunities to know the candidates well. Maybe they stop by and knock on your door, which is great, but you want more information and impression from people who know them. And so we started talking about how between us we know a lot of people. What if we get people in a room and just go through the ballot race by race and say, "Anybody know this person? What do you know about this race? Is there any issue here that we should be aware of?" And we're going to take some notes for people who can't be there, just going to have snacks, it's going to be like a book club, except the ballot is the book this time. And I think it'll be fun and informative. And I've really been happy to hear from so many people who are saying, "Yes, I want to vote in these races with better information than who sign I saw." So that's an easy thing to do that anybody could do at any time.  

Sarah [00:17:39] I think that's so important. We talk about preparing to vote, which is important; checking your registration, making sure you know where your polling place is, all those individual tasks are essential. And also the communal activity of being willing to be in conversation, even if you're the first person-- because the first person always opens the floodgates-- being the first person to say, "I don't know anything about what's on the ballot. I don't know this person. I want to vote and it's important to vote, but I don't understand all these local ballots and all these local candidates." Just having that conversation, it might feel like an embarrassing thing to say out loud, but I guarantee you unless you are a state legislator, no one is going to be shaming you. If you have that conversation, if you say that statement out loud, you will get a flood of, "Oh, my God, me either. I'm so glad you said it." So I think being vulnerable and being brave and saying,  "I want to understand my ballot better," especially locally, is essential preparation. And it's a group activity. It just is.  

Beth [00:18:44] It's a group activity and it's one that I want to do offline. I do a Facebook post every year about the local ballot, but I really just wanted to gather with people. And I'm happy to do it more than once for people who couldn't make it this time. I just really want to be in conversation about these races because they matter so much. And we can't rely on media to tell us what we need to know about all of them. Well, we hope that you are preparing to vote in whatever ways you can. We'd love to hear about those ways that you're preparing to vote. And we will continue to talk about the midterms, but wanted to do a bit of an overview today. Next up, there's just a lot going on surrounding former President Trump-- as you alluded to, Sarah. We're going to discuss what we think you need to know and answer some of your questions. Sarah, if we never talked about Donald Trump again that would be okay with me.  

Sarah [00:19:43] It's never going to happen. Let that go. Let that dream die.  

Beth [00:19:49] Where would you like to start? There are a lot of places that we could start here. What feels right to you?  

Sarah [00:19:55] We could start logically. I would prefer to start emotionally. He did a rally recently. And I cannot believe that I am still surprised by the things this man said, but this one took my breath away.  

Donald Trump [00:20:11] They never want to show how massive our crowd was. You know the biggest crowd I've ever seen? January 6th. [Applause] And you never hear that. It was the biggest. They were there largely to protest a corrupt, and rigged, and stolen election. The biggest crowd and you never hear that, and you see very few pictures of it.  

Sarah [00:20:37] The cravenness of that statement as the January six committee wraps up this week. Again, how am I still shocked and appalled by the things he says. But here we are. Here we are in the Year of our Lord, 2022 still feeling the jabs and stabs of one Donald J. Trump.  

Beth [00:21:06] So, Sarah, when I hear you say that, I think to myself, why is Trump doing rallies right now? He's not running for anything, but he wants to be running for things all the time. And so he is endorsing candidates. He's doing events ostensibly for candidates. They always end up being more about him than about the people he is there for, but that's not surprising. And they know that. So I don't feel sorry for anyone. He just is making himself such a factor. He's raising just tons and tons of money. He's raising so much money and not sharing it.  

Sarah [00:21:37] Not spending it. The person who's spending all the money on the TV ads is Mitch McConnell, not Donald Trump. He's come in a few races, but it's so classic. The reason we can't stop talking about him is because he won't let us. I promise you, a lot of these candidates, even the ones holding rallies with them, would love for him to stop talking particularly about the 2020 election. I mean, he's a huge component. Part of the reason we didn't talk about him in the previous segment is because we were doing this segment. But he's a huge part of the midterms because he will not let everyone move on, no matter how politically smart that would be to just stop talking about it. I mean, it's weird because it does rev up his base, him being attacked and being mistreated-- and we're going to get into that with some of the investigations-- rev up his base, raise money. But when you start talking about the general election, the Republican Party wants to make this a referendum on Joe Biden. And Donald Trump will not let them. He will not let them in all these rallies. And I think the reason he won't let them is because he has a lot on his plate. He has a lot, not just the 2020 election, so many investigations that he can't really just be the classic former president out there living his life because he has like seven investigations against him.  

Beth [00:22:52] There are investigations into January six, both by Congress and by federal prosecutors, and by Georgia state prosecutors, and who knows where else throughout the country. There are tons of civil suits against him related to January six. There are civil suits against him related to claims of sexual assault and harassment. There are civil suits against him related to business dealings. Then we have the New York attorney general's lawsuit about business dealings where New York Attorney General Letitia James claims in an extremely long and detailed complaint, so long, so detailed that he has a history of inflating the value of his assets in order to secure loans. And then we have the Mar-a-Lago situation. We've covered this in a lot of detail in our premium podcast, but today we wanted to do for everyone tour through the Mar-a-Lago situation.  

Sarah [00:23:53] [Inaudible] is that former President Donald Trump took classified documents, of varied evels of security clearance, back to Mar a Lago with him. The National Archives said, "Do you have any classified documents? We need those back." And he punted and his lawyers punted until finally the FBI came knocking at his door. Now, there has been a lot of legal wrangling since the FBI search of his residents in Mar-a-Lago surrounding specifically a special master appointed by the judge in this case to review the classified documents, whether the investigation can continue, whether it needs to pause. Those legal wranglings continue in part because he has some real disarray among his lawyers. That's why I was so, so shocked. He filed a defamation suit against CNN. And I thought, you have enough lawyers to do this? This is what you thought is in the midst of all these, you need to fire up your own lawsuit? I'm intrigued by your choices, my friend. Intrigued.  

Beth [00:25:03] But that's what he's done throughout his entire life. He gets backed into a corner and he says, "No, I know you are, but what am I like?" He just cannot stand it.  

Sarah [00:25:12] Well, I'm reading the Confidence Man, Maggie Haberman's book. It's so long y'all, it's going to take me a while. So don't get anxious waiting for my book report on this. She talks about at the very beginning when the Trump Organization was sued by the federal government for racial discrimination and their residences that  Roy Cohn came and said, "Sue him back, don't admit anything." And he still lost the suit. But he learned that you just fight. You fight at all costs. You just keep fighting. You throw out things whether they're true or not. It doesn't matter that this was very formative. And you do see that. You see this strategy in his approach to all these investigations and lawsuits.  

Beth [00:25:56] I think the key thing here is that he not only had classified materials, he just had presidential records that belong to the government, not to him. The National Archives and Records Administration didn't even make the outreach because they were looking for classified documents initially. They just knew there were records that they should have had from him that they didn't get. And there's a process around this with every transition of power. And so he tells the National Archives and Records Administration, they have everything. They say, "No, we don't." And it is that refusal to cooperate that gets to the Department of Justice after he returns some things and the National Archives and Records Administration sees the classified materials there. He did the same thing in this case that we were just describing, because there's this criminal investigation going on and he starts his own civil suit to get the special master appointed. And he gets everything he wants there and it's still not good enough. So it's going to be really protracted. There going to be all kinds of skirmishes that create headlines to bubble up. But the thing to know is that unlike every president before him, Donald Trump believes that the things he did while he was in office, the paper created by his presidency, belongs to him, not to the people of the United States.  

Sarah [00:27:25] The American people. Yeah.  

Beth [00:27:27] So when you understand it that way, his comparisons to previous administrations fall apart. He has said about President Obama and President Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush that all of them took documents, and he amps up the details of this. So the newest one is George H.W. Bush. He said at this rally that George H.W. Bush took millions of documents to a bowling alley in a Chinese restaurant.  In every one of these situations, what happened was that a presidential library was being built and the National Archives and Records Administration itself went to the place where the library was going to be built and got a very large facility, and probably that large facility used to be something else. For former President Bush, it was, in fact, formerly a bowling alley and a Chinese restaurant. And they gut it and they build what they need and they put the records there until the library can be built. In 1993, the Washington Post said about that bowling alley and Chinese restaurant, there aren't any lanes anymore. No gutters, no pens, no beer. Thanks to a rush remodeling job after last November's election, there are a few simple offices, a massive fire resistant vault and row after row of steel shelves. There are also uniformed guards patrolling it and a closed circuit TV and electronic detectors along the walls and the doors because there's classified material there and it was being secured by the government. Same thing with Bill Clinton, they repurposed a former car dealership in Arkansas. You could think perhaps of the National Archives and Records Administration like Spirit Halloween. They need a big space to come in and do what they got to do for a limited amount of time and they're good at it. Same thing with Obama.  

Sarah [00:29:16] He better be glad Barbara Bush isn't still alive because if he was out there defaming H.W. while Barbara was still around, he'd be in trouble.  

Beth [00:29:24] But this is the key difference. He talks about all of these former presidents having documents close to where they live. And that's true. But they didn't personally have the documents. The government had the documents.  

Sarah [00:29:36] So this is not the only place where he makes comparisons that are inaccurate. Even in an interview recently where Sean Hannity brought up the fact that the FBI was looking for Hillary's emails at Mar-a-Lago. I legitimately couldn't tell if he was joking, if he was serious. I cannot believe, and you can tell neither can Hillary Clinton, that we are still talking about this because they are not the same thing.  

Beth [00:30:11] It's just like Mad Libs when he says things like that to people like Sean Hannity. Okay, let's be very clear, because I know a lot of you are having these conversations with your loved ones. You tell us that. When she was the secretary of state, Hillary Clinton received unclassified emails on a private server instead of on a government server. The State Department has two electronic systems. They call it the high side and the low side. The low side is for unclassified documents. The high side is for classified stuff. She used the State Department's high side for classified stuff and her private server for unclassified. You cannot cut and paste from one to the other in the State Department.  Now, what can happen is that people on a chain of unclassified information  throw in some bits that sound classified or related to classified information because humans are not perfect and because, especially within the State Department, sometimes people are trying to quickly get information to a principal as they're meeting with someone else throughout the world. So it's not perfect. But there have been so many investigations. The key issue in the Hillary Clinton investigation that famously led to James Comey's press conference, was whether any of those e-mails, though they were not marked classified, were actually classified. And after he looked at it, and after Rex Tillerson looked at it, and after Mike Pompeo looked at it, and after inspectors generals looked at it, and after congressional committees looked at it, everyone concluded that the system was imperfect, but that it was a systems issue.  

[00:31:56] One prosecutor said to the inspector general, "If you want to prosecute Hillary Clinton, you've got to prosecute like 150 people because there is a systems issue in the State Department where things could have been handled more carefully." And everyone agrees. And I think she would probably say at this point, I wish I hadn't done that private server situation. That was a bad idea. It was a bad idea. But it is nothing like having boxes and boxes of printed materials clearly labeled classified, and clearly labeled classified at some of the highest levels of classification that we have, just laying around your personal residence. So there was a  carelessness associated with the private server. But we are talking about orders of magnitude, and we're talking about a difference of orders of magnitude, and we're talking about a situation where Trump has deliberately said to the government, "No, I don't have it. No, I don't have anymore. Now, I've given you all that I told you I had. No, these are mine, not the American people's," just over and over. This is very much about an individual, not about a system.  

Sarah [00:33:16] Well, and at least she can claim ignorance, at least when she set up this private server this was advice that was given to her from experts. There had been other government officials that had handled a shift in roles similarly. Now, what are the excuses of the seven members of the Trump team that used private email addresses once they'd enter the White House after spending months, almost years, just going after her and after her and after her for her email processes? I mean, it's just the hypocrisy of him bringing this up again, of him comparing this in any way, shape, or form to what he has done with her, much less other former presidents. Again, I can't say I'm surprised, but it is so gross.  

Beth [00:34:10] I've said before and I will say again, I do not in any way feel defensive of the use of this private server and the way this whole thing went down. I try to be really objective about these things. I also think I have like a weird balance of a high standard and a sense of grace because I was in a law firm when cybersecurity was becoming a hot topic, and it's really hard to take care of sensitive information. And it's especially hard when you've got a bunch of high flying, busy, professional people who don't want to spend days, weeks, months learning new protocols for securing that information. I am happy to say to anyone, "I think she made a mistake using that server. I think that was not the way to go." I also think the more that I have learned about Trump's management of these documents and communications with the government about them, and as I watch him accuse FBI agents of planting documents at Mar-a-Lago and just hear the way he talks about this entire situation, he is being deceptive. He has been deliberate about this. And it all comes from a mentality that he doesn't owe the American people anything. There is no standard of care that he owes the American people. And I find that to be a very different case than the email server for Secretary Clinton.  

Sarah [00:35:38] I don't think he believes he has a standard of care to anyone or anything, including his own family members, business associates, much less the American people. It will be interesting to watch him pivot from his criticisms of the FBI and the FBI agents should the investigation into Hunter Biden come to anything. We recently had an anonymous agent tell The Washington Post that agents believe there is sufficient evidence to charge Hunter Biden with tax crimes and falsely stating that he was not a drug user when he purchased a handgun in 2018. Now there is a Trump appointed U.S. attorney in Delaware that will ultimately make that decision. This leak makes me nervous. This leak makes it seem to me as if the agent is worried there will not be charges and that the agent believes there is sufficient evidence to charge, and so that's why they are leaking to a media outlet before that decision is made. So that part makes me nervous, but we don't know what the decision will be. There's been no reporting, any signaling beyond Merrick Garland saying, "I'm going to stay all the way out of it." It's up to this guy whether they charge Hunter Biden with anything but the grand jury investigation continues. It is there. I think there is some there-there. I don't know if it's enough, but clearly the agents do. And that this seems not the posturing that the FBI currently wants considering the political nature of both the Trump investigation at Mar-a-Lago, this investigation into Hunter Biden.  

Beth [00:37:11] Can you say more about what you mean when you say it makes you nervous?  

Sarah [00:37:15] It makes me nervous because it makes any decision from this U.S. attorney, but particularly a decision not to charge Hunter Biden. Very difficult because you'll have this entire conspiracy theory pretty much written for you that, well, the agents came out and said there was sufficient evidence. So if they're not charging, that's because Merrick Garland or Joe Biden interfered. And maybe that's the right call. This is a Trump appointed U.S. attorney, so maybe it is the right call not to charge Hunter Biden. I don't know. And, honestly, I don't really care. On a just most base political level, I think Hunter Biden being charged would be good politically for Joe Biden and the FBI because it would say, "Oh, see, look, we're fair." But the leak makes me worry that there might not be enough there-there and that's why these agents believe the charges won't be brought, and that's why they're trying to get in front of it and say there needs to be charges. That's what makes me nervous about it.  

Beth [00:38:16] That makes sense to me. I have thought since I started reading about Hunter Biden that he would eventually be charged with a crime somewhere. That doesn't mean he should be convicted of it. I have no idea. I haven't seen any of the evidence, but there has been enough that it seems to me like charges are probable. What I think is really interesting about this leak to The Washington Post is that they included the information about lying in connection with that handgun purchase because that crime that FBI agents refer to as lying and buying doesn't get charged very often. And it also sounds in the headline, like, what, a gun crime? It's very inflammatory to read about a gun crime related to Hunter Biden. And then you get in the details of it and it's like, well, a lot of people could get charged with this crime, but the government usually passes on it because there are more important ways to spend federal resources. I totally agree with your assessment that it feels like a rogue agent who wants to make sure that there is pressure to bring these charges. But I agree 100%. I just want the rule of law to be followed. And if Hunter Biden broke the law, then I want him to be prosecuted in accordance with the practices that would apply to anybody else. And I'm sorry for him and his family that he has become this fixation. And I think there's been some bad judgment exercise that has made it easy for him to become this fixation. And I think there's some real tragedy connected to his addiction and other issues that he's been very vulnerable about. And so I hate the whole situation, but I don't think him being in charge says anything other than this administration is following through on its commitment to have an independent Department of Justice. And that's what we want.  

Sarah [00:40:11] Also not for nothing, I understand why Hunter Biden would probably want to purchase a gun. If I was Hunter Biden and was written about and talked about by the far right wing in the way he was-- like, I get it. I think you're right. I think it's a tragic situation. But if he broke the law, he broke the law. I'm not invested in protecting him, and I'm sure his father is. How could he not be? If it was your child? Now, I don't think Joe Biden is bullying people or breaking laws, but I think there's no way he could reach the standard of neutrality that especially the right wing media requires of him. I'm not sure anyone could. But I think Attorney General Merrick Garland is doing his level best and will continue to, not only with regards to Hunter Biden, but also with regards to Donald Trump.  

Beth [00:41:09] That to me is the thread that runs all the way through this. That you have in Trump a person who believes the man in the office are the same thing. And you have in Biden, imperfect as he is, a person who understands that the man and the office are distinct. And so I'm sure Joe Biden, the man, would throw himself in front of a train to protect his son if he were able to. And I think Joe Biden, the office holder, appointed an attorney general who he believed would play it straight on things. And that's all you can ask for. We cannot ask for perfect people in these offices. They don't exist. We can't ask for people who see themselves as separate from the office. And Trump has just never been interested in or capable of doing that, and has shown that he even believes his status as a former president is something to be worshiped and deferred to in really extreme ways. And I think that's the importance of continuing to pay enough attention so that you can see that thread of this is something that erodes our government when we have people who wrap it so tightly with their individual egos. Well, we're going to take a hard turn from that because it is helpful to cleanse our palates and spend a second talking about how much we are enjoying the fall so far. Sarah, you had a full fledged fall break in your house and I want to hear all about it.  

Sarah [00:42:39] Well, we only took half the week, but we went leaf peeping. My sons hate that phrase. Do you use that phrase, leaf peeping?  

Beth [00:42:44] I've never heard that phrase.  

Sarah [00:42:46] Never?  

Beth [00:42:47] No.  

Sarah [00:42:48] We love a leaf peep around here. We just do. We drove to West Virginia to visit the New River Gorge National Park. New River, one of the oldest rivers in the United States. Never not funny. It was beautiful. I love Fall so much. I love it in direct proportion to how each summer feels longer and hotter than the one before. And so it was cool. We hiked through the mountains, we saw waterfalls, and just the colors were incredible. They were incredible. So we had a lovely break. Our fall break started a little sad because one of our pet rats passed away.  I realized a lot of y'all didn't know that we had pet rats when I announced this on Patreon. But, yes, they are the most amazing pets. I know it sounds crazy, but Griffin got two pet rats at the beginning of COVID because you cannot have one pet. They're too smart. They have to have a companion. So we got a set of brothers. They have about a 2 to 3 year lifespan. But they are friendly, they are smart, they are litterbox trained, cannot recommend them enough as a pet. And one of the brothers, sadly, beloved Hodgepodge passed away-- not the one with cancer, interestingly enough. That rat is still alive. But so it was nice to have a little escape and a little joy and beautiful scenery because our week started a little sand. But we're making our way. We're making our way.  

Beth [00:44:12] How is Griffin doing?  

Sarah [00:44:14] Oh, he's doing good. I think once the, Frisk was diagnosed with cancer, which was very hard, I think he kind of, like, okay, the end is coming. I've got it. It was, again, a little surprising because it was not the rat we were expecting. But it was rough because I was out of town, but I immediately came home. And we have some plans to have a joint funeral once frisk decides to join his beloved brother. But he handled it really well. That's why they've been such good pets. He's cared for them, and he's got to show a lot of maturity. They were like these little emotional support animals when he was basically having to go to school from home. I mean, again, they were just the best.  

Beth [00:44:48] Well, a leaf peep. I'm going to be thinking about that term.  

Sarah [00:44:50] Leaf peeping. You got to leaf peep.  

Beth [00:44:52] Because it is beautiful here. It's the most beautiful fall I can remember in terms of the leaves here. I feel like last year we didn't get a true autumn. It just was kind of summer and then winter, and we didn't get this change that we're seeing and it's just showing off this year. It's gorgeous. My kids only got two days off school and they were the first two days of this week instead of last week when your kids were off. It's very rude. I wish our school districts could coordinate with each other because this was extremely inconvenient. But we did celebrate Chad's birthday on Thursday, which was super fun. He loves the show All Fantasy Everything. It's a podcast. If you don't know it, they draft sandwiches or eighties movies or one hit wonders-- whatever. They'll just draft anything fantasy football style. And that combines a lot of Chad's interests, it checks a lot of boxes for him. And one of the comedians he's regularly on that shows Zak Toscani is doing a backyard tour. He's playing people's backyards across the United States. I would like to just stop for a minute and stand in awe of the bravery of someone doing stand up comedy for a small crowd.  

Sarah [00:46:01] We that's what I thought immediately. When I saw your pictures I was like, oh, my God, that's like, 15, 20 people. That is tough. You can't depend on the club to understand sort of the energy of the crowd or the location in the city. You're going in blind and you're telling jokes to like 20 people. That's incredible.  

Beth [00:46:23] Yes. It took incredible bravery. And he was so great and so funny and so gracious. We had about 30 people. We did it out by our pool. It was lovely outside. We had food for everybody. He came and hung out before his set and just chatted with everyone as though he was one of our neighbors.  

Sarah [00:46:41] That's smart, though. That's smart.  

Beth [00:46:42] Kind of warm everybody up. Then he did the set and then he hung out afterward and talked to everybody. He was so kind about it and truly funny. I was in tears a couple of times laughing so hard. He was really funny. All of our neighbors kept saying that guy is hilarious. So it was really fun. Chad had such a good time. And it was fun to meet him. And what an innovative, cool idea if you are talented enough to pull it off. So we did that and we've just been enjoying the leaves too and just kind of all the fall things. I have felt so much gratitude for how beautiful everything is right now. Chad and I took a walk and he was, like, "What is with you? Is it the full moon that's making you like this?" Because this is the time for me when I'm usually in that runaway day period where I don't like anyone and need to go. But instead I have just been like weepy about how gorgeous everything is. I don't know. My friend Anna says that the veil is thinner in October between this world and the other and I love that too. I keep thinking about it and I feel like maybe that's what's happening for me.  

Sarah [00:47:47]  I love it.  

Beth [00:47:48] Well, we hope that you are experiencing an abundant fall wherever you are, whatever that looks like for you. The January six committee is going to hold another public hearing this Thursday. We're going to watch that along with you on Thursday. You can check in with Sarah on Instagram and with me on Twitter and then we'll all return here together on Friday's episode in your podcast feed to process it. Until then, send all your thoughts to us at Hello@pantsuitpolitics show.com. We read every message and appreciate all of them. Everybody have the best week available to you.  

[00:48:35] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:48:40] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:48:46] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:48:50] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holliday. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emilly Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karen True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:49:25] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nicole Berklas Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  


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