January 6: One Year Later

We’re discussing the one-year anniversary of the January 6 insurrection and siege on the Capitol. We reflect on what that day meant, the people who were involved, and what has happened since. We also talk again with Olivia Beavers of Politico, who was reporting from inside the Capitol that day.

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Episode Resources

Transcript

Beth [00:00:00] What I think is so helpful about this research is that it points to the fact that it's not one thing that drives people to show up at an event like this. There are people who were there because they pump conspiratorial media into their brains constantly, but there are also people there because they listen mostly to news that makes them angry because it doesn't reflect their perspectives. It's good to spend some time figuring out who they were. Like you said, Sarah, and not to make them the center of the story, but to make sure that the rest of the story that you're telling from there is is accurate and as complete as possible. 

Sarah [00:00:46] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:48] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:49] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Sarah [00:01:07] One year ago today, the results of the 2020 presidential election were certified by Congress. This ordinary procedural act took place after extraordinary violence. Thousands of protesters, encouraged by the insurrectionists rhetoric of former President Trump and his allies, marched from a planned protest on the National Mall to the United States Capitol, where they attacked police officers, threatened to members of Congress and defaced the building itself. 

Beth [00:01:32] Before we reflect on the events of that day, we wanted to share our conversation with Politico reporter Olivia Beavers. Olivia generously spoke with us just a few days after the insurrection. A link to that conversation is in the show notes. And we wanted to check back in with her a year later. We recorded this interview on January 3rd, so you'll hear references to Trump's counter programming in particular, that has since been rescheduled. We will get into that after the interview. But first, here's our conversation with Olivia Beavers. 

Sarah [00:02:12] We are thrilled to be back here with Olivia Beavers on the one year anniversary of the January 6th insurrection. Olivia, thank you so much for coming back on Pantsuit Politics. 

Olivia Beavers [00:02:20] Of course. Thank you for having me. 

Sarah [00:02:23] We wanted to start with hearing about the congressional plans for the day itself. What are the plans for the day itself? 

Olivia Beavers [00:02:31] So Speaker Pelosi announced that they're going to be sort of doing a commemorative event to discuss sort of the day that that unfolded a year ago. And at the same time, though, as you might have seen, Donald Trump announced that they're going to be doing their own. 

Sarah [00:02:47] Counterprogramming. 

Olivia Beavers [00:02:48] Sort of counter... Exactly counterprogramming, which, you know, is a little bit mind boggling, especially, you know, even the Republicans that I talked to are saying, you know, why would you why not just stay silent? Why do hold this event? But that seems to be the former president's M.O. is to lean in when everyone else is pushing back. So it's going to be sort of interesting to see these two different and very different events juxtaposed next to each other and and how one is sort of honoring the people who are injured that day and the, the risk and the threat and just sort of I guess, the heinousness that happened and then the other is sort of pushing this counter-narrative of, you know, Ashli Babbitt died. You were fighting for the election. You were there to support me, yada yada. So then they were all looking to see how that unfolds. 

Sarah [00:03:50] I'm interested in your perspective on the difference over the year from immediately after the event where we thought and the consistent message was, this will be a negative for Donald Trump. He needs to run from this. Even now we know the text messages right from Laura Ingraham, you hear he's hurting all of us to the way we've all watched the Republican caucus, from candidates to the voters themselves to the activists really embraced January 6th. What's that been like from your perspective? 

Olivia Beavers [00:04:21] Well, Sarah, I think about, I think it was during the six months after January 6th, and I posted what I had written the next day or I read it the night of the January 6th attack after we had been cleared to go back to our desks and I was writing from a first person experience and I posted it online. And you know, these pro-Trump trolls started going after me and they're mocking me for the fear that we felt. They're mocking the calling it overhyped, whatever they wanted. And I was sitting there thinking, Where were you right after January 6th? Because none of you were saying this stuff. Time and politics have dripped into your views and your discourse. And for someone who is discounting the experiences of hundreds and hundreds of people who were in that building that day, it just either your mind is completely influenced with a false narrative because you don't want to believe that someone that you followed could let this attack happen and not put themselves in there and try to stop it. Or you or you're purposely trying to mislead people about what happened that day. And so I had a few people, few Republicans reach out, and now that is - I cover house Republicans as my beat - and they were like saying, Oh my gosh, the comments. I'm so sorry, and I don't really look at the comments just like that's a mental health decision that that I make. But you do see them here and there, and it didn't affect me, but I just I remember being extremely surprised, and it's one of those things where I saw it happening slowly and picking up. I think that there was a calculated decision by certain Republicans that Donald Trump was going to have influence again. They realized that the base was rallying around Trump for various different reasons. And I think that's why they saw McCarthy fly down there and tried to get Trump back into his graces after he had been pretty critical. And he's not alone. There are other Republicans in the Senate, in the House who have done that and outside of that, who are influential in politics. But there was. There was a pretty quick change of thinking that Donald Trump was done after January 6th and people texting you, how does he recover? And then sure enough, some of them are the same. People who are texting me are the ones who are still speaking highly of him in person, even if they are probably saying, I can't believe this guy is still still has the influence that he does over our party. 

Beth [00:07:03] I read this morning that Kevin McCarthy has been critical of what Speaker Pelosi and Leader Schumer have planned for January 6th. And you mentioned that House Republicans have kind of said quietly to you, why? Why do the counterprogramming? Are they in step with the way that Kevin McCarthy has just been critical of what Democrats have planned? Or do you sense that people who were there, regardless of their party affiliation, need this commemorative event? 

Olivia Beavers [00:07:36] It depends really who you ask. There's almost I would say the majority of Republicans that I talked to, whether they voted to impeach or whether they really dislike Trump and they're more open about it or very vocal about it privately, they will say that they disagree with the January 6th committee that is currently investigating what's going on and that has led to this sort of us versus them dynamic between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to January 6th. But there are some people who it seems like the the effects of the day. The trauma of the day has sort of worn off for them, and they want to move on. They want a different new discussion, one that's healthier and and moving past it. And then there's others who seem to be sort of in between being like, you know, our position has never changed, but but we can't keep relitigating what happened. And so you know them saying that they disagree with Pelosi, McCarthy saying, I wouldn't say, like every Republican is on board. I'm sure that there are some who definitely want to be honoring the police officers. But there is this now knee jerk reaction to disagree with whatever she does I think related to January 6th over her decision to remove Republicans two Republicans from the January 6th select committee. 

Sarah [00:08:57] Interesting considering their opposition to a bipartisan commission, which they have the opportunity to do where Nancy Pelosi would not have been in charge. And I just think I appreciate the the desire to move on. But the body keeps the score like that's not how trauma works, and I think that's one of the been the most interesting dynamics to watch exactly what you describe, like the time in politics infecting this thing in the sort of warring situation between like the reality of the trauma and the fact that the trauma took place in a hyper-partisan political environment in those two forces sort of battling against each other. And I'm just wondering, from your perspective, how do you see that happening with that January 6th committee, like which forces winning Olivia, which forces winning on the investigative committee? 

Olivia Beavers [00:09:51] Well, I mean, it depends how you want to describe winning. I think that a majority of Republicans would turn up their noses at what the January 6th select committee finds, even though you have Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger serving on the committee, though they are at the appointment of Nancy Pelosi. I think it's become politicized by Republicans as being unfair. And whether or not jim Jordan and Jim Banks, we're going to be either fighting with Democrats every step of the way or helping them get to the bottom of what happened. We have ideas of how that probably would have worked. But however, that would have shaken up. Pelosi deciding to remove them added to the Republican's perceived sense of unfairness about how the committee was going to be focusing on them. But they put out some mind-boggling text messages that have also made it really hard for Republicans to confront. You have people who have had two very different narratives, like the the Ingrahams and Hannitys, saying one thing privately to Trump, saying his reputation will be ruined and then they're on their show trying to discount and downplay what was happening. So you're seeing it. If that had been released in real time, you would have had a much clearer view of how this narrative has slowly infiltrated the discussion of January 6th. 

Beth [00:11:20] Do you sense trepidation about what this committee will do next? Do you sense in the in the House Republican caucus specifically concern about subpoenas going to members or what what they have? I mean, it seemed to me that Liz Cheney was laying the foundation to put out the good stuff after the holiday, you know, and maybe I'm wrong about that, but I just wonder if there is anxiety and if you can feel that anxiety. 

Olivia Beavers [00:11:48] I've heard of it here and there. I've heard of I've heard concerns about, you know, the act of certain people being subpoenaed. But if you talk to those people there, I think that they're more willing to take make that fight about the precedent of going after current members than and they're suggesting, you know, they have nothing to hide and who chooses to use that to make it a political moment for them. So I think using a subpoena, if you go after Scott Perry, he's now going to be the top Republican on the House Freedom Caucus. He's the chairman of the Freedom Caucus, and he's very pro-Trump and he's close to Mark Meadows. And I can only just imagine if he is subpoenaed and he does choose to participate or he know that that would be a platform for him to speak to his base and Donald Trump. And if the committee chooses to do it privately, that would also be a way around it by imagine he would fight against that option much harder. The way that the committee proceeds is going to be really interesting. I don't know how that shakes up, and that's something that we've been watching is do does a committee go after their own members and seek to subpoena them? They've they've sort of been inevitably approaching that point where to get the full story they would need to hear from these members. The question is, do they actually take that step? 

Sarah [00:13:11] I think that's what's so hard is it feels like. With an event like January 6th, we should reach a point where there's not a talking point, where there's not an answer, where there's not something they can say about Nancy Pelosi and the investigation or, you know, the insurrection itself like that. It feels like it's big enough and bad enough that there should be some point at which everybody goes, Yeah, I was really terrible, but it's just not how it works. Like, they're always going to have an answer, a talking point. There's always going to be political points to be scored. And I think that it's like this in an in a way. And I want to get back to this like that plays into the trauma of everybody there, like I cannot fathom what it would be like. I mean, I have a little bit of an idea based on some of my own traumas in my life where traumas can be political talking point, so you can't ever move forward in your journey. Or at least it feels like that because it's constantly being batted about as if it's an episode of Crossfire. 

Olivia Beavers [00:14:13] Mm-Hmm. You know, like there's there's misinformation and then there's conspiracy and there's a ton of conspiracy around January 6th, one experience that I had was a a friend of a friend texting me, suggesting that the press was nefarious in its coverage because there are incorrect reports about a a fire extinguisher being used against a particular police officer. And I believe if I'm remember correctly, the fire extinguisher for sure was used against a police officer. It was just not the one that it was being reported about. And I wrote them, and this person is anti-government. They are not Republican. They went to Cornell. They're highly educated and they're still prone to falling into the conspiracy trap. And that is comes with being disillusioned with government because of being disillusioned with the press, and one mistake simply means, oh, the press is out for some nefarious reason. And I had to respond to them and say, You are smarter than this, pull yourself out of this dark hole that you're digging because you are building a worst case scenario when that is not the case. You can't do this with everyone. And so there is misinformation. There's different stories. You're finding out things that new information and and the way that we're not going to have the full picture of January 6th, I don't think ever, I think is probably the most realistic way we can have a better and better view, but we probably will not know every angle and every part of what motivated people to try to stop the election certification and the violence that some planned or the influence of the crowd that led others to be swept in, I don't think we're going to know the full extent of every detail that day, but we could get a better picture. And even when we start getting a better picture, there will be the people who choose to not believe it. 

Sarah [00:16:15] Yeah, because that's what we're trying to sort true believers from, like political actors. I think that's what's so hard. We're trying to sort out not just the people there that day, but everyone's decisions after that. Are you doing this because you really believe something happened? And I'm not sure that makes it better or worse if you're a true believer or you're just spreading the misinformation for your own political gains, but especially in Congress sorting out who's doing it for their own political purposes and who's doing it because they're a true believer. Oh, it does. It keeps me up at night. That's for sure. 

Olivia Beavers [00:16:43] One example of something that happened, I think it was like the week after January 6th, I decided to interview the House Republicans, who responded on the Capitol floor of to the rioters coming in. And I, fast forward and I saw a tweet from this Congressman Troy Nehls, who was one of the freshmen who responded and was addressing the rioters. And he given me a quote along the lines of, you know, if they come through that door, the police officers would have had every right to shoot them and. And so I was like, Oh, that's that's interesting, but I didn't include it in my report at the time. And then I saw, I would say, maybe three months ago, a tweet from him saying Ashli Babbitt was murdered. 

Beth [00:17:31] Oh my gosh. 

Olivia Beavers [00:17:31] And so I tweeted and I said, This is a really interesting perspective for someone who told me, and I put the quote out. I put the audio out and I got a phone call from him. And he said the difference was that at our door, they were using sharpened flagpoles to break in, so they were armed and they could have caused severe damage to us. And I, we're going back and forth and it was a 30, 40 minute phone call. And then I sent him a video of Ashli Babbitt and I said, Sir, they're using the same things to strike through the windows that he could have used on a police officer and the member behind them to come through. So I don't see how you are cleaning this door is different from the other door. It was a respectful conversation, but it ended with we're going to disagree, to disagree. But there they were caught in a position where their views had obviously changed and politics had become involved. Ashli Babbitt is a name that is just echoes with Republicans like Troy Nehls echoing that she was murdered, even though there was a position at one point where Republicans said that the police officer who shot was in the right before anything had determined whether he was guilty or not. And in using that, that force. 

Beth [00:18:58] Can you help us understand what the endgame is here, both from the perspective of the committee that's investigating January 6th and from House Republicans who are actively opposed to this committee's work? 

Olivia Beavers [00:19:14] So perhaps it's a jaded view, but I tend to always think like the end goals tend to be what is best politically right in this world that we work in. I'm not saying that that is a flat for both or either, but I'm saying if you need to look at it through a lens, there is. A reason, I think, where Republicans would privately say that they did not. There was an effort to tell the commission, not the generous committee, but the commission that would have been bipartisan because there was a danger that that investigation would be damaging to Republicans leading up to an election and. How like, how do you win back the House if you are finding more and more details about, you know, certain discussions that Donald Trump had like we saw recently and stuff that we don't know that I think is is a factor here. And in terms of the January 6th committee. It's I won't say that there's a motivation when they have the broad mandate of discovering what happened that day. Republicans who are critical of it will say it's to hurt Donald Trump and Republicans by two people who have altered their entire career trajectory because they believe strongly enough in pushing back on the state of the party after the attack. So, you can look at the arguments and both, both can believe are true. But as to what people genuinely believe; I think they each everyone has their own motivations and politics, and that was tried to incorporate those as well. It's damaging for Republicans to keep on examining it. And there is also Democrats also know that and... 

Sarah [00:21:07] Mhm, right, well, on the Democrat side, do you anticipate any legislation coming from January 6th? Do you see any movement surrounding any of the sort of proposed reforms or changes? 

Olivia Beavers [00:21:19] You know, it's interesting. There are a lot of discussions about reforms. I'm, you know, I kind of feel like the momentum to have those that legislation would have been as soon as possible tied to the attack. So I guess I'm a little bit more skeptical about whether we're going to see those come to fruition, but I'm not going to say that they won't. After the January 6th committee finishes up its work, they might move to have certain legislation. When I talked to Rodney Davis, who is the top House Republican on the House Administration Committee, they're talking about interest in still reforming the Capitol security apparatus and how that all works with U.S. Capitol Police, the sergeant of arms that I think is something that is still going to happen. It's just do they do they do that if Republicans win the majority? 

Beth [00:22:16] You were really generous in your reporting after January 6th and in the conversation you had with us shortly after the Capitol attack and talking about the impact on humans, including yourself. And so we just wanted to ask you, how are you doing and how does it land with you that it's almost been a year? And what do you see with others understanding that everybody processes quite differently? 

Olivia Beavers [00:22:40] Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I've been trying to think about it. I don't think that I have PTSD from that day, I think that I was very proactive in taking the therapy sessions that work was offering me. There was a group of reporters who were in lockdown together and we were constantly discussing how we were feeling on a particular day when certain videos came out. And I think that that helped loosen up the trauma that might have otherwise burned itself inside of me. But the day will still impact me in ways that I don't I can't always imagine. Like I, I stood outside probably just a month ago. I remember looking down and I was in the area where Ashli Babbitt was shot. I remember thinking, I wonder if those marks in the marble are bloodstains. Like, there's there's always just going to be I think this idea in my head of how much worse it could have gotten. I think that that's an idea that a lot of us in the capital that day think about. We saw the Mitt Romney video of him, probably within minutes of rioters finding him. And I imagine he's very high up on the list of, you know, someone who could have been really seriously assaulted if they had found him. But he wasn't the only one. There were House Democrats who were fleeing the the House chamber, and they were very close to the rioters finding them. I also think that there is the one there's a big beauty that did come from it, and I don't know if it's always discussed. But like I had more people in my entire life reached out to me to see if I was OK. And I had people on your show who reached out to me. Some of them were nurses who have been dealing with COVID, who said, Hey, thank you for sharing my story. I'm also dealing with trauma. And like, we were able to have a conversation. There was just like a level of outrage that I would have never expected. And there were friendships that formed with people that I saw every day in the capital who now were constantly, Are you OK, let's get together, let's do wine, or if it's COVID, let's do a Zoom, hang out. So I think that that's the beauty in my mind that came from that day that that has that will be darkened so many other ways. There is the good element of of humankind in there as well. 

Sarah [00:25:05] Well, that's as a reporter who does her job in the capital and who was there that day. I'm wondering how you feel as a citizen now that we're facing another midterm as we get closer and closer to another presidential election? How do you think about all the reporting about the voting changes and what happens next time? And is our democracy at risk? Like how do you feel about that just as a citizen? 

Olivia Beavers [00:25:28] I think there is concern and I ask this of members as well. I think that there's a concern that there's going to be another January 6th attack because of how quickly it got politicized and how quickly there was a movement to either not believe it or to shrug off. But who was responsible and stuff like that. So I was asking people, Are you afraid of another January 6th? It doesn't have to look like the one that we saw, but know it can be another sort of attack on the institution because of perceived baseless claims that someone decides to push because it benefits them politically. And I I'm sort of of the the scary thought that, you know, that that could very well happen again and then members are too. So I think that that's something that I look at when we start seeing the rhetoric pick up about the state of play heading into next year. I think that whether or not it's admitted like January 6th was a reality that people realized how much there is consequence to political rhetoric, even if it's not heated on either side. You know, we've seen it this year get extremely heated, especially at a time when people are like, let's let's tone it down. There were people, you know, ramping it up. And I, you know, I don't really know how you how it in a world where that wouldn't have happened because it was so toxic, it was such a toxic day. But um.... I think that's the big thing that I'm looking at is what form do we see January 6th morph into since it doesn't seem like it's it's an issue that's fixed going forward. 

Beth [00:27:19] I read one of your colleagues refer to the capital community this morning in talking about the resources that are going to be available. And I like that term because I try to remember that it's not just the members and the press and the police, and that's a lot of people, its staff and maintenance folks and engineers, like so many people, work around the capital. I'm wondering if that sense of the capital as a community of people has shifted. And if you see the kind of fault lines within those folks that surround the members that you do within the members themselves, 

Olivia Beavers [00:27:59] Hmmm. That's a good question. I think there is a sense of community, but you know, community is is both who is welcomed into it and who wants to be part of it. I think about there are people who received much less attention, and I think I mentioned on your show and it's like an image that sticks with me was a woman and Dunkin Donuts on her phone just crying. And I don't know what she saw. And I wish I had stopped and asked her. I wish I had given her a hug. There was a police officer who in the day. I think it like three or four days after the attack, I went back and tried to sort of, you know, not if you follow the horse, you know, not spend too long before I got back in the saddle again. And he hugged me, asked how I was doing and I asked how he was doing it. He was talking about all of the. All the stuff that he had to deal with, he's he's black and he had a lot of racist comments made towards him, and that now is someone who I see and we'll go hug in the capital or when we cross paths. There are the groups of women, there's the women, the reporters who were able to bunker in Congressman Gallego's office. We have a text read and we check in on each other. So the communities are there. There are staff who I remember meeting with and you can go with to talk to. But but I don't know if you know, there's little concentrated pockets, I think within the broader community as a because the what I'm trying to say. And there are I think there's a continuing push for there to be resources that people can address the trauma. But when you talked about different levels of trauma, I think that there needs to be, as you mentioned, the understanding that not everyone is going to be in the same place. And I know when I was trying to feel better about the situation, there were other reporters or other staffers who were still severely impacted by the events of the day and going into certain areas brought up memories. And sometimes that happens to me too. I'll be. But I remember being back in the gallery and looking around thinking, Oh my gosh, you know? It's my first time back here. And that's where I sat, and that's where, like I, I had to jump over a barrier before I to take cover, so. We all are sort of in different levels. And I think that understanding that no one is going to be processing that data the same. 

Sarah [00:30:34] Think about that lovely quote from the 9/11 piece where they talk about grief is like a mountain. Everybody climbs at their own pace and some people don't make it down the mountain. Some people don't get stuck, and I think that's going to be the reality for so many members of the capital community as well. Like, like you said, everybody's not climbing at the same pace and some people are going to get stuck. For political purposes, even right? And I think that that's that's a really hard thing to to deal with as well when you're still interacting all together in the space where this event happened every day. 

Olivia Beavers [00:31:05] Mm hmm. No, I think so. And, you know, work our work messaged us recently and those who are in the building that day and said, Hey, we're we're offering you. You know, if you want more therapy sessions, please take them off like the the anniversary is bad and I plan on taking advantage of that because. I also found sometimes a trauma, sometimes you think you're OK and then something happens and then you're like, Well, that was sitting there the whole time. 

Sarah [00:31:33] It's really not linear in a way I do not like. I wish it was a little more linear

Olivia Beavers [00:31:36] Oh, it's not at all. 

Sarah [00:31:36] I would like that. I would like. I don't know who's in charge. I would like a more linear process that would be helpful. They tell, they say either there's steps, except for the steps, are all wonky and don't like it. 

Olivia Beavers [00:31:48] All there's steps, and then you realize, like you think you're like on step five and then the next step,. 

Sarah [00:31:52] How'd I get to step three?

Olivia Beavers [00:31:54] I fall back down here?

Sarah [00:31:59] Uh huh. Yep, that's true. Well, Olivia, thank you for coming back on the show and helping us mark this occasion. We wish you all the best. We love reading your reporting and your work, and we think that every time anyone that day steps forward and talks through their process and talks through that journey on the mountain, it's a very, very brave and incredibly generous act. So thank you. 

Olivia Beavers [00:32:18] Thank you for having me. It's been great talking to you again. 

Sarah [00:32:36] Before we start talking about January 6th, as we often do on this podcast, I thought it would be helpful to say, what are we talking about when we say January 6th? I think that there is a long list that can be included in that: the the actual insurrectionist on the ground, the other people there that day, sort of the victims of the attack, members of Congress, members of the press like Olivia, the Capitol Police, of course, Donald Trump and his allies and their behavior before and after the insurrection, the House Select Committee investigating January 6th, the ongoing threat of domestic terrorism and the groups that helped organize that day, the Republican Party leadership, the Republican Party faithful around the country and just how the rest of us feel about that. So there's this long list, I think, of sort of groups and events. You know, for me, Beth, as I look back, I think the most important thing that I want to talk about today with you is the actual insurrectionists like the people there on the ground because I think once you get into like Trump in the Republican Party than you're way expanding, you're expanding into the events before you're expanding into the impeachment and everything that came after. I think all that's important, but I think we're just still in the process in that process. We're still in that process, right? With the committee, with the criminal investigations, particularly into that people higher up in the power structure. So I thought. It would be helpful to just start with the actual insurrectionist and what we know and what's happening with the criminal charges against them. What do you think? 

Beth [00:34:17] I like that because I think when you go beyond the scope of just who was there and why and what did they do and why? Then you do what we do and everything politically, which is just lay on this nationalized symbolic gloss. And then you talk your way backward to the facts and you only have facts that support that nationalize symbolic gloss. And the more we learn about the actual human beings that showed up that day and why and where they came from, the less it comports with a lot of that symbolic gloss that we want to overlay. 

Sarah [00:34:56] And that's not to say like, I want to center those people. That's why we spoke to Olivia. That's what we shared her interview first. Like, I really want to center and in many ways, the the people victimized by this violence, the Capitol Police officers, the members of the press, the members of Congress who like we spoke with Olivia, are still deeply traumatized by the events of that day. But I do think we have to talk about how we got there, how we got to people attacking police officers and to talk about that, you have to talk about those people, not as a just this sort of. Stand in caricature. But the actual people themselves, and there's been a lot of really interesting reporting and research into that. So at this point a year out, we have over 700 people that have been arrested. At least 225 people have been charged with assaulting, impeding or resisting law enforcement during the riot. We have 75 who are accused of using a deadly or dangerous weapon against the officers. I heard a FBI investigators say, though, that like this is just the beginning. The government estimates that as many as 2500 people who took part in the events of January 6th could be charged with federal crimes and that we could be watching these charges for years like we are. We are just at the beginning of seeing actual criminal consequences for the people on the ground that day. 

Beth [00:36:31] It's a real case study in kind of a new era in crime too, because part of the reason this is going to take a long time there is there are mountains of evidence created by the people involved, just the hours and hours of live streamed footage, the hundreds of tips per person that came into the FBI after seeing social media posts. I mean, we just that the way that people behaved and captured themselves behaving at this event is unique to this moment in time. 

Sarah [00:37:05] And you have those sedition hunters. There's like so much reporting on the sedition enters the people who have taken it upon themselves to basically help law enforcement sort through this massive amount of evidence, photographs, social media posts, videos all over the globe. Like, I listened to an interview from somebody who lived in Germany who was helping sort through all this. So we do have over 160 guilty pleas, and to date at least 70 defendants have been sentenced for their roles in the January 6th insurrection. And like those sentences, are all over the map. You have two months of probation for nonviolently entering the capital. You have five years in prison for assaulting officers. Robert Scott Palmer, a Florida man who admitted he assaulted officers, was sentenced to 63 months in prison. That's the harshest sentence so far. And so when we're looking at the people sentence, the people who've pled guilty, the 700 people who have been arrested, there's not a large percentage of what I would call sort of far right extremists. The people who were very well-organized, had violent goals when they entered. Violent and well-organized sort of within an organizational structure goals when they entered the capital, only 13 percent of the nearly 700 people arrested are members of those sort of far right militia groups like the Oath Keepers, like the Proud Boys. And I was reading this researcher who said, like in a situation, you would expect to about half of these being from militia groups. So we're already seeing like a much smaller percentage of far right extremists present in this group of people. 

Beth [00:38:48] This group is also much older than we would typically expect. Two thirds of the people arrested in connection with January 6th are over the age of thirty four, concentrated in their 40s and 50s. Normally, for right wing extremists, it's two thirds under the age of thirty four. We also have just different levels of education. The January 6th arrestees, 25 percent of them have college degrees, which is close to the national average of the electorate. About 15 percent had prior military service. That's much lower than we see in typical right wing extremism quarters as well. 

Sarah [00:39:25] I think the most fascinating piece of data that they're gathering about the people on the ground is that 52 percent are coming from counties that Biden won. If you live in an area like I do, if you live in an area where lots of people voted for Donald Trump and it is a rural area, you were less likely to send an insurrectionist, which honestly, it was surprising when I read it, but it plays out in my life. Like there was like one or two people from my county that were identified and not a lot of people who attended the protests much less marched on the Capitol. But it's like they were coming from big liberal cities San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City, Texas, Florida not let that Texas is liberal, but it's just it's really fascinating and I think illuminating when you see this. This particular demographic. Older CEOs, architects, business owners, decently well-educated from areas of the country that were voting for Biden. 

Beth [00:40:39] You might expect that you would have unanimous kind of loyalty to Newsmax, OANN, and Fox. What you see instead is a decent number of the people there, listed outlets like CNN as a primary news source for them. What I think is so helpful about this research is is that it points to the fact that it's not one thing that drives people to show up at an event like this. It's not the. National caricature of a Trump voter who showed up. And there are people who were there because they pump conspiratorial media into their brains constantly, but there are also people there because they listen mostly to news that makes them angry because it doesn't reflect their perspectives. You know, a lot of different things were going on with these people, and that's why I think it's it's good to spend some time figuring out who they were. Like you said, Sarah, not to make them the center of the story, but to make sure that the rest of the story that you're telling from there is is accurate and as complete as possible. 

Sarah [00:41:49] Now there does seem to be a racial component to this group. The same researcher who was gathering all this data found that basically, if the county had lost a large proportion of white population in recent years, that dramatically increased the probability that that an insurrection had come from that county, right? And you see this in the polling to this belief that this replacement theory that white supremacists espouse is becoming more mainstream. And you're seeing it in people who maybe recently voted for Obama, weirdly enough, are people that live in areas of the country that we don't associate with Trump voters and MAGA hats. 

Beth [00:42:38] That's who came. And as you read individual stories, if you choose to spend your time that way. Wow, it is all over the place in terms of people who felt like they were being asked to go. And so they went people who just really kind of meandered their way to that spot. Almost every story I have read feels like a fictionalized tragedy of what modern American life looks like. 

Sarah [00:43:08] Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think the moment where Olivia says this was the consequence of political rhetoric has a consequence. That's what I feel like is the thread running through every single one of these accounts, like the more we learn about the people that were there, including some of the people who died because five people died that day. What you see is this thread of the influence of misinformation, the influence of populist political rhetoric. The challenge before us as Americans, not just when it comes to electoral processes, and there are those. And January 6th revealed those, without a doubt, but also the challenge of our political culture, our information environment, our media to a person, the anger reserved for the media inside these accounts and testimonies and stories, while also talking about how much media people take in is, I mean, pretty consistent. I think. This threat of like the political ecosystem. That produced these people and their actions on January 6th is unavoidable. 

Beth [00:44:31] I read a particularly depressing long piece from The Atlantic about how January 6th was just a rehearsal and all of the factors in place when you when you look at the next set of elections and what might happen the next time around. What struck me is you were talking about the political ecosystem, Sarah, is that so many of the people interviewed for this piece, which will link in the show notes, used words like Pelosi is forcing us to do this. The Democrats are making us have to defend the country. They seemed. They, the left, seemed to want a civil war. And. It's striking to me because I don't see any of that. But the consistency of it coming out from these folks has to grab your attention if you want to grapple with where we are and why we're here. 

Sarah [00:45:33] So if it sounds like I am feeling some empathy or compassion for these people. Let me on that I am because one of my central values as a Democrat is that I try to reserve my ire for those in power. And I see a lot of things when I read the stories of the people on the ground. That day, I see violence and anger and trauma and pain. And together in a group, I see a certain amount of power. But who I think deserves outrage are the people in power who exploited those people. Donald Trump and his allies, and particular the far right media who before the events of January 6th and since January 6th, continue to exploit political rhetoric, the rhetoric of fear, the rhetoric of they're destroying our country. They want violence. They want a civil war. Leftist, libs, socialist. I have a member of my community who who is like in polite society, who regularly gets on Facebook and says just abhorrent things. Leftists are here to violently destroy America. It's the people who exploit that. That's who I reserve all my January 6th rage for all of it, because it's disgusting. I don't know how Dan Bongino and Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens and all of that crowd. Now we see their text messages, the Sean Hannitys, the Laura Ingrahams, he's hurting us, which means he's hurting my bottom line. Let's be abundantly clear on what that woman meant. He's hurting us, these people who make money off exploiting the fear of their fellow citizens. But just enough, just enough. Just enough to keep making money off of them. That's why they were so shocked, that's why they were sending text messages, because they're like, Oh crap, we went a little too far this time. We don't want to hurt it, we don't want to become the real bad guys, because how are we supposed to keep making money off turning Democrats into the bad guys? It's disgusting. 

Beth [00:48:04] I think we'll get emails about including Ben Shapiro and that list because I think that there are people in that ecosystem who have drawn some distinctions between how you behave and. And why and under what circumstances? So I don't mean to put everybody in the same category, would I agree with you about Sarah very strongly is that. There are so many layers of what happened on January 6th that as you uncover them, demonstrate something we've talked about with the Trump administration since he was elected, which is you cannot characterize all of this as just about him. It is always that people have attached to him for their personal interests, and so many folks who have previously been thought of as part of not just polite society, but like essential to the functioning of a society that has some balance. So many people have, for whatever reason, just said, I made my bed here and I'm just going to ride it out. Even people, this is to me the most maddening thing. And when we talked with Olivia, I just could not stop thinking about this. Even people who on that day said no more this far and no more have since said well. When that bad? No, I won't happen again. We're good. That is what I can't find a way to have any grace for within myself if I'm being honest. That is where my grace stops people who saw this with their own eyes, many of whom felt fear in their own bodies now telling us, actually, the media is just obsessed with this. You know. Clearly, January 6th is about more than the 700 or so people who've been arrested, it's about more than all of the people who came into the capital. It's about a lot of things we are never, ever going to find our way toward a healthier political culture if we're not even willing to tell the truth about the 700 or so people who are have been arrested and the people who actually showed up that day. 

Sarah [00:50:24] Yep. Look, to me, Ben Shapiro is Dan Bongino what Mitch McConnell is to Marjorie Taylor Greene. Just because you put a wash of intelligence over it and dress it up doesn't mean it's not the same problem wearing a different pair of pants. Get out of here with that. I'm uninterested. I'm uninterested. So the responsibility is still there. Stronger in my personal opinion, stronger. And when we talk about people in power. People in power, members of Congress, party leadership, people with enormous media platforms, gas lighting, all of us. Even me, even me, it's not like for one seconds, one millisecond since January 6th, I have ever doubted Donald Trump's responsibility and still I listen to like The Daily in the recounting and reading the stories and like hearing his actual words on the platform as he sent people to the capital and we're still debating this, we are allowing anyone to imply what's the big deal when he said. Go do it. Got to be strong, got to take that country back like he said it. He said it. Godspeed to Liz Cheney. He deserves criminal culpability for what he stood on that platform and instructed people to do. Like, it's abhorrent. And I don't want that to get lost in the villainization of our fellow citizens, because for better or for worse, they are. And not just the 700 people who have been arrested, not the thousands were there that day, but the hundreds of thousands of more who feel an affiliation to those people. They're not going anywhere. And we live in a democracy. And so we have to deal with that. And I just want to assign culpability and in the most ethically and productive way possible. And I think there is a lot to learn and understand again, not just about our laws and electoral processes, but our political rhetoric and how it acts out on our fellow citizens. And I just think that that like we have to keep our eye on that. 

Beth [00:53:10] His rhetoric almost isn't a strong enough word for the age that we live in now. I think that I have really evolved in my understanding of this topic. I would have said a few years ago. I mean, come on. He gave a speech. You cannot tie a speech to people's willingness to crush a police officer. But the thing is and what I think I am coming to grips with. We're not talking about a speech. We're talking about people being absolutely inundated constantly with the same messages over and over again. And that becomes less like words and more like a drug. Right? There is a compulsion to behavior. I find myself thinking things. Sometimes, you know, in a phrase and thinking, Why am I thinking this phrase? This doesn't sound like me? And then I'll realize, Oh, I've read this phrase 100 times today, and then I have to consider, why have I read this phrase a hundred times today? Where is that coming from? And you can get yourself into a very conspiratorial place if you're not careful trying to avoid getting into a very conspiratorial place because our information is so overwhelming at this point and so opaque in terms of where it's coming from. And so I do assign more responsibility to people who would throw up their hands and say it's just speech, then I would have a few years ago because I just, I think just speech is wrong. The speech has always been the most powerful thing we have. But speech channeled dramatically through multiple 24-7 platforms is something altogether different. 

Sarah [00:55:10] You and I both read an incredible piece in New York magazine called What January 6th Insurrectionists Wanted, it's by Kerry Howley, we'll put the links in the show notes, it's incredible. You should read the whole thing. But the phrase I can't stop thinking about is a country that protects the right to spend fantasy necessarily risk the well-being of those who easily lose themselves to it. And I would go even further. All of our well-being is affected by that. Absolutely. These people aren't an island. Every single one of us has someone in our lives who's been affected by misinformation at this point. If it affects all of us, it affects our democracy. That's the threat to democracy. That's the threat to democracy. Is, you know what we've been hearing from all of you for years ever, especially since we wrote our book, but what if we can't agree on reality? What if we can't agree on the truth? And I think what January 6th showed us is this is what happens if we can't agree on reality, this is what happens. When we can't agree on the truth and listen to me, I want the electoral reforms desperately that allow the Electoral Act is a disaster. We need to fix it. I want all that, but it's not going to solve this. That is not going to solve this problem, which I actually think is at the beating, bleeding traumatized heart of January 6th. 

Beth [00:56:42] There's a writer that I follow Jessica Tofino, who is very active in talking about beauty culture and all the problems with beauty culture, and she does a great reel this week. She's launching a subscription newsletter, and it's igniting this discussion about free content versus paid content. She did a very direct reel, saying, Hey, subscribe to my newsletter if you want, don't if you don't want to, but please understand that nothing on Instagram is free to you because. You are being shaped constantly by what you scroll here. In ways that you don't even recognize as they're happening. So please don't categorize this as free just because you're not paying money for it. And we've talked about that before that if you're if you're not the customer, you're the product. But I thought she put it so directly, I'll try to find a way to link that in our notes. 

Sarah [00:57:34] Well, I just think about it social media. What is more powerful in a human being's life than their social interactions and the media they intake? Almost nothing. Almost nothing. If our sort of hierarchy of needs are met, which most of us in America have all our hierarchy of needs met. And so what that the fact that we are social creatures, highly influenced by media, and you put those two things together. And here we are. Here we are. If we need updates to our democracy and to our constitution and our understanding, how could we not possibly start there? Because I just feel like every conversation we've had around this around partizanship and democratic participation and public education around critical thinking and media education and media consumption, like all of that, has led us to this moment and January 6th, where people followed the directions, either from like Facebook groups full of far right militia members or just someone who caught it on CNN and thought, I better go over there because I care like it's just it sweeps that the entire spectrum of what led us to this moment. And I think it's in a way, you know? The sort of focus on electoral reforms. Again, top priority. Most important thing that Congress can do. Is also, you know, sort of an easy path to distract us from this much harder cultural work because our political culture is just as impactful, if not more. Than many of our processes, because it's just it's knit together in a way that is. It's the water we swim in every single day. 

Beth [00:59:40] I think I agree that reforming the Electoral Count Act is the most impactful thing Congress as a body could do. But to your point, that legislation doesn't solve this, I think the most impactful thing that members of Congress can do is get out and talk to people about democracy. And about the fact that we want the person who got the most votes to win the election, no matter who it is, and that actually is the most important thing because that is what January 6th represents to me and especially all the polling post January 6th represents. It is scary to see that time has not healed these wounds. People have hardened around their beliefs that the election has been stolen. People, more people think that Biden is an illegitimate president now than thought so last year. To me, all of this signals a weakening commitment to the idea that we give our consent to be governed, even if we didn't personally choose the person who won the election. It was very hard to accept the Trump presidency, but I tried my best to every single day. I tried to never put an asterisk on that. I tried to never say not my president because I have given my consent to this system, not to the person. And I'm not asking anybody else to be in exactly the same place that I am about that. But I am asking members of Congress to stop splitting hairs about what was acceptable here and what wasn't. I find it frightening that Peter Navarro is like openly telling people, actually, we had a really peaceful way to disrupt the transfer of power planned. And we got kind of thrown off course because of the violent rioters. But there was like a good way to do this coup that would have worked out really nicely. I just can't stand the fact that not every single member of Congress is constantly saying we value the system, even if we don't like the results that the system produces. 

Sarah [01:01:51] I think what is so hard about that is honestly the Electoral College. Like, that's just a hard that is a paradoxical position we have put Americans into as a person who voted with the popular vote winner, what twice and my short voting history and not seeing that person become president. It's we need to we need to fix that because it perpetuates this idea of like the system isn't actually the consent of the governed. The system is complex, right? It's elite. Just trust us that it's it's it's working for your good. And so it's not that I'm not a person that also maybe that's why I read these polls and I see this and I think, well, I've been there before. I've been there in 2000 where I thought the system was rigged. It felt rigged. Watching the Supreme Court decide in 2000, but it's to me like, well, then let's let's use that to come closer together. Yuval Levin wrote a really good piece where it's like there's a thread here between Democrats and Republicans about our electoral process, where we could find some agreement. Let's do that. Let's do that because we need that desperately. If we want to do exactly what you're saying, which is say. Our fundamental value is the consent of the governed in a democratic process. So let's find areas of agreement on that. 

Beth [01:03:24] 100 percent, because a commitment to the constitutional order does not mean that we never change anything. That is another very big problem that we have in this country. This idea that we're just done that if you value the system, it means you value the system unchanged forever and ever and relevant to a world that no longer exists. I don't believe that I hear the concerns about the Electoral College. I hear a lot of concerns. I mean, when people are talking about voter fraud. I think. OK, I understand. Having just spent some time at Walt Disney World, why it frustrates you that there is a more rigorous process to make sure this is actually your magic band than to vote. I get it. Like, I think that's the frustrating thing about being an American right now. We have evidence all around us of our capacity to do seemingly impossible things. From the phones that we carry around to the leisure experiences we have access to and the movies we watch. We constantly have evidence of our capacity to do seemingly impossible things and yet we don't bring that capacity to our civic spaces. And that is demoralizing no matter what part of the ideological spectrum you sit in. So I go back to what I want members of Congress to do is try to restore some interest in this shared project instead of just beating on each other about exactly which Republicans we're going to sit on the committee investigating January 6th. 

Sarah [01:05:04] And I think the other really important thing to remember about January 6th is just what you articulate about the Constitution. We're not done, we're not done with understanding what happened. We're not done with understanding the people who were there. I certainly hope we're not done with bringing accountability and justice to those in power who exploited the events of January 6th and continue to exploit them. And so I hope that. We continue to give ourselves and each other and our country Grace as we. Deal with the events of that. Today, they're not over. One year later, they won't be over five years later, they won't be over 50 years later. And that's hard, especially in the middle of a pandemic that also feels never ending. But I think often about the Tom Hanks quote, Tom is an ally. Either way, it will change. It will help us learn more about January 6th, both good and bad and to give ourselves and each other grace as we do that. 

Beth [01:06:08] The thing I keep going back to you is an email that we got from our long time listener, Lou. Because, as you said, we're not done with any of this and leaves message was really a challenge that I want to come back to you. I don't want this to be the first and only time that I mentioned this message. I want to keep coming back to it. But he said, where is the creativity in response to these forces? What are the plans if this continues to get worse? If we continue to have more people who don't really care what the votes are, they just care who wins? What's the plan? And I think we owe it to the people who experienced an unbelievable amount of fear on January 6th, whether they were in the Capitol or in Washington, D.C., or love someone who was to the people who had to clean up the mess made by these rioters, to the law enforcement who are cleaning up the mess in terms of trying to bring some accountability to individuals and the members of Congress who are at great personal cost, trying to bring some accountability to their fellow members and to a former president who incited all this. I think we owe it to all of those people to be asking, like, what creative ideas can I bring to a country that that needs a recommitment to its democratic processes and needs a response to those who do not share that commitment? 

Sarah [01:07:21] Well, and I think holding up those who did stay committed, Republicans who voted for impeachment, Republicans who serve on the committee, people on the ground on January 6th, both before and after that, are now participating, sharing information, being honest at both at great personal cost. I think that the people in power who have responded with courage. Are just as important to pay attention to as those who have responded with cowardice. 

Beth [01:07:52] And I think Olivia is one of those people, and so we're so grateful that Olivia has spent time with us again a year out and we'll try to continue to check in with her as she tried to hold to account to the truth of that day. All of the folks that she covers. 

Sarah [01:08:08] Thank you for joining us for this special episode of Pantsuit Politics. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all. 

Beth [01:08:27] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.

Sarah Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names)  Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy Whited.

Beth Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller.

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