Your Body, Whose Choice?

Topics Discussed

• Afghan Refugee Resettlement

• Masks, Abortion, and Bodily Autonomy

• Outside of Politics: Adult Friendships

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Episode Resources

• I helped design the SIV program. It needs an urgent update if we want to help Afghan refugees. (The Washington Post)

• Face masks: what the data say (Nature)

• The U.S. Education Department is investigating five states over their mask mandate bans. (The New York Times)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Sarah: And so I think those people, again, some in good faith, some in bad are sniffing out that confident lie. And the best thing that we can do to build trust is to name it ourselves and to say, You're right. There is complexity here. And it is really hard when we're talking about public health and in a community as big and diverse as ours.

And to just name that, not to say you're right. Like, I agree with you, but to say, I understand why you feel that way. I can see that too.

[00:00:38] Sarah: This is Sarah 

Beth: and Beth. 

You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

[00:00:42] Beth: The home of grace-filled political conversations.

[00:01:05] Sarah: Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. We hope you had the best labor day weekend available to you. On today's episode, we're going to start the show by talking about what happens next to the more than 123,000 refugees airlifted out of Afghanistan over the past few weeks.

In the main segment, we're going to talk about mask mandates and abortion, and the conversation about the hypocrisy that so many of us are having in our private lives. And then as always, we'll end the show by talking about what's on our mind outside politics. Before we get started, Beth, you've launched a new little series and our Instagram reels. Tell the people about it.

[00:01:41] Beth: In the latest installment of Sarah pushes me outside of my comfort zone. I am 

[00:01:45] Sarah: I also made her download Tik Tok at our retreat.

[00:01:48] Beth: I can't even talk about it. Y'all I can't even talk about it. Sarah, has I considered the segments where I pop into Instagram stories and answer questions that people submit and those questions range from.

How do you avoid frizz in your hair? What do you think about God? And so I'm pulling out some of the questions that we tend to get a lot of, especially things about career and about boundaries and family relationships. And I'm going to make those into reels because when we put them in stories, they disappear and people come back months later asking me, you remember when he talked about this and often the answer is I'm sorry, I do not. And so this is a way for us to give it a little bit more life, make it a little easier to share. If you find the. Valuable. So you can check those out. The hashtag we're going to use is dear Beth. Again, this is all like a little out there for me, but I'm doing it and I hope you find it.

[00:02:50] Sarah: The United States has evacuated over 123,000 Afghans over the past couple of weeks. And it's easy to treat the evacuation as the happy ending to so many stories. But the reality is this is just the beginning for so many families who are. Scattered at army bases around the world. Many of these bases are just barely able to keep up with a massive need, an influx of that many people presents.

And we've heard from listeners who work in this process or whose partners work for one of the agencies and they, or saying one thing, this is a massive undertaking. So we wanted to take a few minutes and give this continuing story, the attention it deserves. 

[00:03:32] Beth: One of the biggest issues right now is the special immigrant visa program.

More than a decade ago, Congress set up this program to recognize that as a matter of national honor, we owe it to people who have risked their lives working for the United States or programs that we sponsored to invite them into our country and give them a safe home to live in. And we were primarily talking when the program was established about Iraqis and.

Who risked their lives, working with the United States government. And so since then, we've admitted more than 70,000 people through the program. The application process can cost thousands of dollars. It typically takes between one, three years to complete. So even where we are reaching to help people who have helped us, it is not an easy ride for the people involved in this process.

[00:04:20] Sarah: Yeah. And part of the reason is because this process stretches across so many agencies, the state department issues, the visas, then you have all these security and intelligence agencies screening the applicants and the refugees. You have DHS, the Department of Homeland Security. That's responsible for admitting those who pass through all the security reviews.

And then you have the department of health and human services that has programs to help the refugees and those who are admitted through the program to settle. It should not surprise anyone that getting through three government agencies creates quite a backlog. It got worse under the Trump administration because they slowed the program down.

Once they negotiated a withdrawal with the Taliban, instead of speeding the program up, it was part of the reason there was such a crush of people. Once the Taliban search through the country. Now there's been some changes, president Biden's national security advisor, Jake Sullivan, designated DHS as the lead federal agency for coordinating the resettlement of Afghans.

So they're trying to sort of. Simplify the process and that, and make one agency, this sort of point of control over all of this, but listen, here's the thing. The DHS is not just dealing with the Afghan refugees they're dealing with the border crisis. They're dealing with COVID as related to the border crisis. Like this is just really overwhelming our government resources at this point. 

[00:05:38] Beth: And a lot of reporting, it has come out to just put a fine point on what you said, Sarah, about how specifically and deliberately the Trump administration dismantled the special immigrant visa program and how hamstrung the Biden administration has been by a lot of decisions made in the Trump era. I've been really vocal on our show about how disappointed and frustrated and upset I've been with the way this withdrawal has been handled in a number of respects. I do think it is important to be fair in that critique and recognize that the infrastructure to do this well had been depleted in ways that you can't rebuild over six months, nine months.

[00:06:18] Sarah: That's a really good point. Can I take us on a little bit of a, a side trip quickly? I'm reading The Fifth Risk by Michael Lewis, which begins right now with the story of the Trump transition and the effect on our government agencies. And I thought I've been kind of convicted as I'm reading it. And I've been thinking like it's so easy to focus on the fact that he's out of office.

I've done that on the show several times. I've just focused on the fact that he's gone and reading this book is reminding me that. He is not in the white house, but the effects of his administration are going to be felt for years. And you kind of have to stay focused on that because we're so into the horse race.

And we're so into the whoever's in charge that we forget that it is a powerful job, not just when you're in it, but for years or even decades after you're gone your decisions reverberate. And I'm, I'm really trying to sort of retrain my eye and retrain my brain to remember that, to remember that an administration's effect is not over when they're no longer in the White House. And I think this is a really good example of that. 

[00:07:20] Beth: And you see a line pointing back to the Obama administration here too. In the fact that after that bombing at cobalt airport, the response from the administration was to do drone strikes. That is how the Obama-era national security apparatus responded to attacks.

You have a lot of the same people in this administration. I don't think that's the right decision. I don't think that's particularly ethical or where we want to be with foreign policy right now. That relationship is there. Every president makes a mark that lasts for a long, long time, and that has ripple effects in a number of ways.

And to me asking those kinds of questions is what makes me excited to keep showing up for these conversations with all of them. Because I think there are people who hear us say, we want to do nuance, or we want to do grace and expect to tune in for two equal sides, hammering out different positions.

When for me, the idea is not to say, well, Sarah supports the withdrawal and I'm upset with how the withdrawal was done. And then we just hammer and hammer and hammer away at those positions. It's to then say, okay, given that's where we are. What are the other layers here and what influenced these decisions and what are some of the realities that people executing these decisions are contending with?

And just trying to continue to deepen our understanding of what's at work here. And it's been really helpful to me that several former officials from the Trump administration have spoken out about what they directly witnessed in terms of this special immigrant visa program. 

[00:08:53] Sarah: The other component of this conversation is not just focusing on past administrations or current administrations, but remembering that the federal government is also a massive workplace of people who stay throughout administrations. And those people are really, really at the center of this Herculean effort regarding the Afghan refugees. We had a listener, Jessica who works at the state department, she emailed us and wanted to share part of what the state department is doing right now. 

[00:09:25] Beth: Jessica wrote, there is an Afghanistan task force that is handling thousands of urgent requests involving people from consular logistics and our 24-hour operations center, which monitors events all over the world and notify as relevant parties. Accordingly. We have people in Qubole cutter and other transit countries working the logistics of getting people to the.

We have people working the phones to secure transit countries for people to travel through and also to find longer-term safe havens for other Afghans at risk. Other people are working the phones to connect with Americans in Afghanistan to see if they want to leave. Some volunteers are meeting planes as they arrive at Dulles airport in DC and helping to get people to the next place Jessica and her colleagues all over the world are participating.

And she said the state department does so much, that goes unseen and that's okay. Do it for the glory. We do it because it needs to be done. And because it feels important and right. I'm so proud to be associated with this amazing team. 

[00:10:19] Sarah: Yeah. The hearing from Jessica, we heard from, again, some listeners who either work in the process or whose partners work in the process and who are really like coming to us and saying, if you could see what we see.

You would be so overwhelmed and impressed and it would, it would warm your heart to see the links people are going to, to help the Afghan refugees. And so we just, we just wanted to stay focused on the story because it's going to continue to be really, really important. Next up, we're going to talk about our bodies, our choices, and whether or not the government should have a say in those things.

Here we are. We're a year and a half into the pandemic. A global public health crisis requires that we think about our bodies a lot. It requires that we think about each other's bodies a lot add in a growing tide of anti-abortion legislation, especially the new law in Texas. And all of us are thinking about our bodily autonomy and how much control we want the government or our neighbors to have over our bodies and how much control we want to have over our neighbors.

[00:11:33] Beth: The problem is depending on what we're talking about, we are hearing some of the same arguments come from our opponents that we've said about them before. And it has a lot of us wondering, am I being hypocritical? Hm. 

[00:11:49] Sarah: So first Brooke reached out to us because she's joined the fight in Iowa against the governor's prohibition on mask mandates.

So the governor of Iowa, Kim Reynolds has written into law, a complete and total ban on mask mandates. Now Brooke thinks the lack of mask mandates is a violation of her rights. Of course, she hears the same thing from parents who don't want a mask mandate because they believe it violates their religious freedom.

Both sides are using this argument of well, if you don't like it, you can homeschool. She said, 

[00:12:21] Brooke: I'm concerned and wondering if I'm actually fighting the same thing on the opposite side. 

[00:12:29] Sarah: So what do we think Beth, are we all being hypocrites when we tell religious parents they can homeschool, but refuse to homeschool in the face of anti-mask mandates?

[00:12:36] Beth: Well, let me say a bunch of things. Cause I have a bunch of jumbled thoughts. The strongest opinion that I have about any of this is that I so deeply appreciate Brooke examining this question. And we have heard that from a number of listeners, truly the strongest thing I feel here is gratitude for anybody who is willing to step back and say, let me critically think about my own position and how it relates to the way I interact with other people.

From there. I have a bunch of not strong opinions. I'm really working on trying to articulate the intensity of how I feel about a position, because I think something that's so frustrating right now, especially when you're talking about the Delta variant or about abortion, is that you can kind of think out loud about something.

That you are truly, and honestly grappling with and be met with responses that sound like you have just issued an edict as a Monarch or something. Right. So I only have draft opinions about all this, because I think it's really hard. If I think about the word hypocrisy, I guess the first thing I would say is that I have always really valued intellectual consistency and something that I am continuing to learn with age and life experience is that it's kind of like efficiency.

It has a place, but that place is not everywhere. Yup. And we should be able as adults, people, societies to say sometimes like this, this is a little bit intellectually inconsistent, but it's also the best thing for us right now. We have to do it. So I'm less concerned about being a hypocrite, which we all are on some level about something.

Because again, I think that's right. I think we are going to be and more concerned about, are we taking each other seriously and having the most honest searching conversations about hard topics that we can. 

[00:14:34] Sarah: Well, and I think this is particularly important with public health. That's what we've learned, right.

Is if we are asking for someone to think through their choices, as it impacts the group, that's the hard part of public health is we're asking people to do something that we don't ask them to do a lot. My opinion. We don't ask them to do enough in America, but which is how do your choices impact other people?

And so there is I think, a little bit higher bar with public health. When it comes to that argument because people feel like, well, if you're asking me. To change something for someone else. Then you had better have a very good reason. And you better like, be honest about where you don't know. And I think the instinct in public health is to sort of bury where we don't know, because we think if we admit even a little bit of inconsistency, then we've lost.

The argument all is lost. When in my experience in a second me a long time to learn. Admitting some of the inconsistency strengthens your argument. It shows people that they can trust you to say, I'm not sure. I don't know. You know, here's where I worry about my own hypocrisy or my own inconsistencies when it comes to COVID.

I know because of what we do, that there are parts of the world. There are parts of our own country, where there are incredibly high vaccination rates and incredibly high mask adherence, and they are still experiencing incredible surges in dull. And I think there's this narrative I hear where we blame all of it on people who didn't get vaccinated or who won't wear a mask.

They're the reason we're experiencing this. And when I look around at the world or, and I look around at our country, you know, Heather wrote into us from the Seattle area and she said, I'm glad I live here, but we have high vaccination rates and we still have counties in the red, like to me, that that's where I worry about.

Am I being inconsistent? I even thought about this sometimes with the Trump administration, I thought I hate his decision-makings and also we are not the only place in the world experiencing COVID. There are people with leaders who I would, you know, give everything I have to have in charge and they're still experiencing COVID.

And so when we say it's so easy and tempting to just be like, well, you're, this is the reason. When there's always never one reason or one population or one set of decision-making, that is the cause of the problem, but we want that we want that easy narrative. And I think that's where the inconsistencies can really, really hurt you.

Now, as far as the, you know, Burke specific questions. To me, I think arguing for, or equating, because this is what we're going to talk about a lot, right? This is what we heard over and over in our Instagram comments. When we brought up this topic, which is it's a false equivalency. And I do think there is an aspect of false equivalency with saying religious parents’ concerns about freedom of practice is the same as public health.

Concerns for public health and it's worth listening. It's worth noting that the department of education seems to agree. They're investigating these anti-mask mandates as violating the civil rights of disabled students who are more at risk for COVID. So, because it feels like you're arguing for your individual rights and the other one is arguing to protect the group.

But I could still see where you, where you struggle and look, I don't like the argument of you. Don't like it homeschool, no matter what's, you're concerned about. I don't like that, as a way to deal with problems within the public school system. You don't like it leave. Like, I just think that that's like a crappy form of problem-solving.

[00:17:57] Beth: I totally agree. That's a crappy form of problem-solving. I am personally letting go of false equivalency as a part of how I analyze any of it. Because pretty much any comparison of two things has an element of being a false equivalency and comparisons are still how our brains make sense of the world.

And comparisons are still how people are going to argue with each other. And there is some value in that argument, even when it's clearly a false equivalency, I hear. And I, and I say this with love and respect for everyone who in good faith is saying, these things are too different to put in the same framework.

And I think there's truth to that. But I also hear in that. I am not going to take this argument seriously. I am not going to have this argument because I'm assuming that the people advancing the argument that I disagree with are coming to me in bad faith and saying that's a false equivalency is my way of saying you're a bad-faith actor, and I'm not going to converse with you. And listen, some people are, granted, conceited. Some people are. When I think about the four problems that are dominating, every conversation I have right now, Afghanistan COVID and Delta abortion. And what's going on economically. When I think about those four problems, it helps me to reorient myself to where the vast majority of Americans are on those four issues, polling and surveys, as flawed as they are tell us that the vast majority of Americans wanted to leave Afghanistan.

And also don't like the way that it's been done, the vast majority of Americans. Just want to be done with COVID and we'll do what is necessary to get there and we'll accept some sickness for the rest of their lives, but not this kind of sickness. The vast majority, 40 of Americans think that in some circumstances, abortion ought to be legal and not in others.

That there should be some regulation around that. And the vast majority of Americans want their goods and services to continue uninterrupted, no matter what external forces are surrounding the economy. So when I reorient myself to where most people are, I can have a clear conversation about the relationship between asking someone to get a vaccine and telling someone they may not have an abortion instead of arguing with the most extreme version of that position.

If I just think there are a lot of people who are honestly saying, I don't know how I feel about these two things, and I want to talk to those people.

[00:20:38] Sarah: Let's move on to the abortion component of that. Everybody take a deep breath. It's a complicated topic. It's a hard topic, but it's worth talking about Katie commented on our conversation.

About the Texas law and said she just has this nagging concern that she's had some inconsistency. She says, I believe in my body, my choice in public health, while I know that a woman chooses or needs to have an abortion is not a public health issue. I'm having a hard time squaring my position on abortion and mask and vaccine mandates, which I'm also for, because it still falls in that my body, my choice camp, we put this on.

Lots of comments. So many comments that it's not the same as a lot of people use that false equivalency argument. And yes, of course we all understand inherently that pregnancy and a virus are different, but I do not think that the people and there were a lot of people in the comments who said, I've been wondering the same thing.

Don't understand that. There's something else going on here deeper than bad faith actors making that argument. I think a lot of people are, are feeling that tug of like, but wait, what is the difference? And I think we should, we should honor that. And I think the idea that just because there's a bad-faith actor present in the debate, shuts down the debate means we don't have any idea.

When we say that we're, we are together as a community, the community will always involve bad faith factors, always and forever. And a country of 300 million people are in your small town you know, 200, there's always going to be a bad-faith actor. And so I think acknowledging that like you said, and just in remembering that, but that's not where most people are coming from.

Most people. I think when you, when you look at those four things, you just recite. None of those things can be summed up with a slogan. And that's my first thing. Like let's just, let's, let's drop the idea that we can sum up these complicated issues with a slogan slogans belong on placards at marches, but they don't belong in the arguments between.

Ourselves and our community members, because it's too complicated. It's too. I know we want something to be again. We want that narrative that just breaks the whole thing wide open and easy for everybody to understand why we are right. But that's not the reality. It's not the reality with abortion. It's not the reality with vaccine mandates.

It's not the reality with damn near anything. 

[00:23:09] Beth: I, 100% agree with that. I also think there are two layers at least. To these questions that Katie and Brooke and others are asking. And I want, I will. I promise Brooke and Katie, I will directly tell you what I think about your questions, but let me just kind of show my work here.

There is the question of how do I resolve this for myself. And that's where some of the slogans have value. We had a lot of people sharing pregnancy. Isn't contagious. I can see why that is extremely persuasive to you in the context of your own, thinking about how you resolve this question, it is also not valuable.

In a conversation where you're trying to build trust with another person in order to either convince them to get a vaccine or share why you are in favor or of, of, or opposed to something the, how do I communicate about this is different than how do I resolve this for myself? And I feel like we need to hold on to that now, how do I resolve this for myself?

I have said it before. And I think this is where I am landing. I am not at this time in favor of vaccine mandates. I am in favor of everyone getting a vaccine and I, if you're listening and haven't gotten one, because I care about you as a person, I would like for you to do that. I also recognize we are still early in the process.

People establishing trust and seeing how these work there are certain populations for whom the vaccines are not as effective as others. There are certain populations for him. The risk associated with the vaccines is higher than others. Now we might still weigh that risk as less than the known risk of COVID I do, but I understand.

And have some space for why people aren't going to get a vaccine right now. Do I think that about every vaccine? Always? No, I don't. I think there are vaccines that absolutely should be required to participate in certain forms of social activity. Like going to school, like being in the military, like perhaps attending a concert.

I have no problem with there being consequences associated with making a decision that differs from the decision. The public health community tells us is required. For us to have a sustainable health system in the country. But right now here today, I am not in favor of vaccine mandates for COVID-19. I am in favor of people getting vaccines.

[00:25:31] Sarah: Now, do you mean that through government mandates or like employer mandates? So do you, how do you feel about a nurse losing her job because she will not get the vaccine? 

[00:25:40] Beth: I have no problem today with employer mandates for vaccines. I do not think governments should mandate those. I don't think a. Ten-year-old student ought not to be allowed in school because the 10-year-old’s parents have decided not to get the child vaccinated.

I want that child to be vaccinated. I want those parents to choose differently, but I do not think today that government services should be denied or government mandates should be imposed around this vaccine. 

[00:26:08] Sarah: And you would put the government as an employer when you're requiring federal employees to get the vaccine?

[00:26:13] Beth: I would, I think that's a little bit different question. I think for the military, it's a different question, right? Because of the way that people have to interact with each other, the way they have to interact with the world. So I think there's a distinction for me between the government, as employer versus the government, as the governing authority for the citizenry.

But right now, That's where I land.

[00:26:32] Sarah: But I mean, look at just the three levels of complexity we pass through pretty quickly. Right. And I think, but I think there is something to the fact that if you are honest and the other side and you're saying, I really am trying to have a conversation with someone in my life about this.

And I believe them to be a good faith factor. They do see vaccines, he mandates. And if you support them, then that's definitely the conversation you're having. Asking them to sacrifice their bodily autonomy for the good of someone else. And so they see, you know, they see that as the same thing that you say you will not accept abortion.

Now. I'm not saying I see it that way, but there is, I, I think you can make that argument in a good faith way. I do believe that to be true because for me, you know, the way I solve these issues. For myself to get to Katie's question directly, is that for me, it is, it is not the difference between a virus and pregnancy to me.

And I know everybody is not here and I acknowledge that you know, I worked at planned parenthood. That was my first job out of college. I've been pregnant four times. I've had a DNI at 20 weeks. I spent a lot of time thinking about what is going on inside my own body, during pregnancy. How I feel about that, how I think about that, what my religious beliefs teach me about this.

And for me, the difference is not between a virus and pregnancy. For me, the difference is between a fetus and a person. And I do not believe a fetus to be a person. And I think that is what is so hard. Right? I think that's the way to really address it. The crux of that. It's not that the inconsistency is between virus and pregnancy.

It's that we feel differently. Some of us, not all of us, and that's why this is hard and we're never going to solve it, solve it. Some of us feel differently about fetuses and persons. And so asking someone to sacrifice their bodily autonomy through a vaccine for other people versus somebody asking somebody to sacrifice their bodily autonomy for a fetus is different.

That's where I have. That's how I feel about this. And I think so, so often happens in the abortion debate as I've witnessed it over my three decades. I feel like what I've been talking about it is we don't want to say that and we want to avoid it, some of us, because we don't feel that way. Even some pro-choice people don't feel that way.

They have trouble articulating sort of the status of a fetus because it's not like we have some clear answer. It is it's, it's about articulating for yourself and being able to articulate it to somebody. Who might feel differently, who I think we know sort of inherently that if I say that the person's going to say.

Well, then we're done here because I don't feel that way. And that's, what's hard. That's, what's really hard about this debate is that when we really keep scratching at it, especially, you know, with regards to abortion, that there are some like fundamental religious, spiritual, philosophical disagreements at the heart of it.

And I think the, you know, What I think is always so important. And I I'm realizing this is just as true with issues of public health. Is, are we talking about what's right? Are we talking about what we think the government has a right to do? And that's, to me the other issue, that's sort of always underneath all of this, right.

Is we're talking, you know, someone who's saying my body, my choice, but what about vaccine mandates? Well, what about vaccine mandates? We have no government vaccine mandates in place currently. So what are you talking about? And I think that's it too. Like we're, we're really, sometimes we're not really clearly articulating what we want.

What are we talking about when it comes to the government? 

[00:30:18] Beth: Yeah, I really appreciate that, Sarah. I do not believe the government should prohibit abortion and I don't think I'm in the same place as you are about whether a life is at stake. At the beginning of a pregnancy, you know, I've been eating vegan for several months for health reasons.

And I am really surprised at how much it has caused me to think about life in a number of contexts and just kind of the way it has worked on me. So I think that I do believe that life begins at conception, and I still believe that the government should not make that decision. Four and with families, and that's really hard.

That's really hard to But I think it's important to own it in these conversations. And let me speak to owning your personal experience and the truth of what is at stake and what we're talking about on the COVID-19 side. You know, we are, as we are recording one year from when my parents tested positive for COVID and my mother went to the hospital in an ambulance and spent 15 days there, she is still suffering from the effects of COVID and worries that she might always.

And I think, and we talked about this just this morning. I think she is alive because of the grace of when she contracted COVID because she got it. After health professionals had enough experience to know how to treat it effectively. And before they were crushed with an uptick in cases, and to sit here today, knowing that my mom is alive because of timing is a really difficult thing.

And I think we have to agree that life outside the womb is valuable and worthy of integrity as well. And so when you are making an argument not you, the listener, but you in general, people who are making an argument that we should not get vaccines, we should not wear masks and we should not alter our behavior in any way, because of this virus, you are not honoring life either.

And I want to be honest about what we're actually talking about. On both sides of this equation, I will have a good-faith conversation about my body, my choice, with respect to both abortion and vaccines. And I want to be honest about the fact that I see life in both of those discussions. And that is hard that makes this really difficult.

And I want to be honest about the fact that even with masking, which I believe in as an effective. The almost ancient understanding of how we help mitigate the spread of disease. I want to be honest about the fact that not all masks are created equal. The effectiveness of masks varies widely in terms of how they are worn and what type of mask we're talking about.

And that is not a slam dunk either, but it is a mitigation measure. Well, we are not promised complete effectiveness from any of the tactics we take to conduct the combat this virus, but it is a mitigation measure. And I want to have an honest conversation about how far we're willing to go for one another in terms of mitigation efforts.

And I see masks as entirely different from vaccines in that conversation, much less is being asked of us even though for some more is being asked. And I will have that conversation. Who reasonably can not be expected to where I'm asking for the vast majority of us. I see the mass question is very, very different from the vaccine question.

[00:33:56] Sarah: I want to clarify, you know, I used the word person very specifically when I was talking about a fetus. I didn't use the word life because where I've settled is. There's so many areas that we have adopted a spectrum mentality, sexuality, gender, and the truth is the other uncomfortable truth that people don't want to acknowledge is we have also accepted that when it comes to life and lots of contexts, how we value life in the civil court system, how we make medical decisions, we operate pragmatically under life is a spectrum reality.

And when, when it comes to government and when it comes to decisions we make and laws we pass. And I think that I've just adopted that, you know, there's a lot of times where I see like the pragmatic reality of how we deal with something. And I think, well, we're dealing with it that way for a reason. Not because we need to find a religious answer in which we pinpoint exactly when a life begins and that it is a total and complete equal value to every other life on planet earth.

We don't operate like that. Even in a religious context, you know, we might say one thing, but we don't act that way in any space. 

[00:35:11] Beth: Well, just think about the conversation we had in the first segment about who gets to leave Afghanistan with government support. 

[00:35:17] Sarah: Exactly. And so there's just, I'm not fighting that anymore.

I'm sorry if it makes people uncomfortable, but I'd rather. Lisa sent us this fantastic quote from Learning How to See with Brian McLaren, which is a podcast coming from the Center for Action and Contemplation, which follows in like, and he said, the brain prefers a confident lie to a hesitant truth. And I've just embraced the hesitant truth that we treat life as a spectrum.

And that that's okay. And we must do it for a reason. And so I'm not looking for that. Pinpointed. This is exactly when it starts, and this is how I feel. And like, I just I'm embracing the complexity of how we, we really do treat this in reality. And look, there's some of that complexity with COVID too. And I think the people who get angry and you see the like, well, a mask doesn't even work, or there are people with vaccinations that are getting COVID or in the hospital, they're trying to, to touch on what they feel.

In good faith or in bad is a confident lie that we think we have the answer. And if everybody did it COVID would stop. But that is a lie. That is a lie. We tell ourselves that if we could control everybody, it would be over because for one thing we can't and we never will be able to. And for another thing, even if we could, there are lots of countries that got pretty dang close and they're still dealing with the Delta surge.

And so I think those people, again, some in good faith, some in bad are sniffing out that confident lie. And the best thing that we can do to build trust is to name it ourselves and to say, You're right. There is complexity here. And it is really hard when we're talking about public health and in a community as big and diverse as ours.

And to just name that, not to say you're right. Like I agree with you, but to say, I understand why you feel that way. I can see that too. 

[00:37:11] Beth: So, so let me give you my hesitant truth in response to Brooke's question about parents fighting for mask mandates. My hesitant truth is that I think that it is reckless to have school right now without students and teachers wearing masks.

I think it is irresponsible and reckless and a disservice to the community. I also think the court system is a terrible place to figure that out. I think courts are telling us we are a terrible place to figure out COVID, as I wish every judge in the country could just put that sentence in their opinions about this stuff, because you can feel that undercurrent, this is a terrible place to try to figure this out.

I also recognize that there isn't a good place to figure this out because school board meetings have just beyond jumped the shark. And, and I recognize that there is an incongruent that's going to make a lot of y'all mad in the way that we're talking about this and the way that it's being talked about in public forums about these issues, because in public forums about these issues, it is the most extreme version of the argument.

And so I don't begrudge any advocacy around. Mask mandates in school. I understand the motivation for that advocacy. And I honor that motivation. And for me, the way that I am walking through this, and some of this is just personality gift calling, you know, what, what tools have we been given for me? The way that I am walking through this, I am trying to put all my weapons down in these conversations.

And be an endless well of patience with other people and that's hard. And that is definitely not for everyone. I am trying to be an endless well of patients about this and to have quiet conversations that support people who are working in education that support our school board members, that support people, making decisions at a state level.

I am trying to show up and say, not everybody feels that way. I don't feel that way. I appreciate this. I want this, I am trying to teach my girls how to wear their masks properly and wash their hands and stay away from people as much as they can and just keep going. And remember as personal as the issue of sickness and suffering from COVID has become in my life.

Like it is in many of yours too far, different degrees, and two far more intense degrees than mine. I am trying to see this as part of a much longer chapter in how we relate to each other in this country and to do my best, to move us in a positive direction in that chapter. 

[00:39:56] Sarah: Well, the reason that people are so mad, and I get it is because the trick of the human brain, God bless us in all our complexity is that we can sniff out the confident lie in somebody else while confidently lying our own asses off. Like, that's why we're also mad because we feel like, well, you may be right, but how dare you say that to me? When you yourself have your own blind spots and look, yeah, it sucks.

I get it. Human beings, as my friend Lacey says, they are the worst and also the best. I don't know. It's weird. Like I think that's, what's so hard. Is this, all this balancing, you know, Kelly, lots of you guys sent this to it, but as Kelly Synthes, you know, the principle we learn, which is your freedom ends, where someone else's starts and that there's this balance, but we don't balance as hard.

It takes all the muscles. You gotta use them all the time. Like we just want a place to stand, but that's not how it works in a multicultural democracy. We're on one of those balanced boards. For the whole time, that's it? That's where we live in America in 2021. We're all we're on those balanced boards, constantly tipping back and forth and trying to figure it out together.

And, you know, I think the fears about hypocrisy. Or those like nagging concerns is that we know that we know that this is going to be a constant balance and then it's not as simple as being right and convincing everybody else that we're the right ones we're seeing now, especially when it comes to COVID.

But as we've seen repeatedly for decades with abortion, that there's a balance. That's the balance you hear in that public polling Roche and be overturned, but there's lots of restrictions I'm okay with. And so I just think that you know, we can keep fighting. I don't think that's working very well as opposed to acknowledging that there isn't an easy answer, no matter how, like horrendous those, like the bill in Texas.

Is, it is a horrendous harmful piece of legislation. It doesn't simplify the complexities of abortion. It just doesn't abortion is still as complicated as it ever was, even in the presence of this horrendous law. I wish that wasn't true, but it is the reality of where we find ourselves in 2021. 

[00:42:06] Beth: I love that you talked about that balancing act, Sarah because what it reminds me of is what we learned from Simone Biles. Like, I feel like we're all trying to do that balancing act while we all have the twist. Yeah, because we are, there is an element in this entire conversation of coping mechanisms. These confident lies are created by our brains for a reason. And part of that is to deal with how hard it is to be present with so much suffering, to be present with so much complexity, to be present with terrible options.

Sometimes. An array of options, so good that you can't figure out which to prioritize. And what we learned from Simone Biles, his story is that it's dangerous to try to balance when you are also coping with things and, and that's what we're doing. And this Texas law has added fuel to that stress. There was already so much stress around abortion, and this has added.

Exponential quantities of stress to that conversation. And so here we are trying to figure out how to treat each other and be citizens in a democratic society, in a multicultural democratic society while we are falling apart personally. And even if you feel pretty good today, there's probably some level on which the past two years have caused you to fall apart.

Personally, that's a big lift. 

[00:43:33] Sarah: And it's because we're sold this lie and you know, every advertising campaign that we're in control. And if we just buy the right thing and do the right and be productive and follow the right morning routine, we'll be in control of our choices. And won't have to worry about how other people affect us.

And that's that talk about a confident lie, you know like that is not true. AI. The harder we fight it. The harder it hurts that it sinks in. That's not true that our choices affect other people and their choices affect us. Whether we like it or not. That's the difficulty. And that's why we all feel so mad because we feel like we were sold a bill of goods and we were, and continue to be again.

I'm sorry. I don't like it either, but it is the reality of being a person in this particular moment. 

[00:44:23] Beth: I've gotten a bunch of messages from very kind listeners lately. That all sounded like you said not. Okay. And I'm worried about you and I really appreciate that in the first thing is just, yes, I am okay. I, I always have peace joy love like a river fountain notion in my soul. Okay. I'm good. And also I am, I am not good. Like you're not good. This has been a traumatizing experience for me and everybody else. And we could compare those and come up with a lot of false equivalencies about my suffering versus anyone else's suffering.

Right. And again, Big framing for these questions that Brooke and Katie, and others have presented today is I just want to keep being willing to be soft enough to ask those questions. Even when I find it really painful. That doesn't mean every single day. There are some days when I'm just going to have to go with my confidence.

You know, I'm, I am going to have to just use my coping mechanisms and simplify the issues and get on with it, but in the moments where I can find the energy for it, I think that it's really important to be able to step back and say, where am I on this? And how does that compare to where I've been on other things and how am I treating other people's arguments?

And am I being the person I want to be? Even when the people in front of me are very much not being the people, I want them to be. 

[00:45:47] Sarah: Well, and look, we're doing all of this in the middle of a trauma. This week is a huge weight for all of us. Anyway, because we are coming up on the 20th anniversary of nine 11.

There's lots of good writing and reporting and podcasting about whether we're even over that trauma. The answer is probably no, we're going to talk about that on next week's Tuesday episode. On Friday, we're going to be sharing our series from 9/11 on the day of, and our visit to the Memorial. But I mean, I just think like acknowledging all that stuff we're carrying and all the forces that press on us and burden us and push and pull us in a million different directions.

And do the same thing to the people that we are arguing with, whether or not we think they're good faith or bad faith actors, they are being tossed and turned by the waves of history, just like us. And I think that acknowledging the complexity of where we are and where other people are, is much more important than labeling ourselves or somebody else a hypocrite.

Beth, what's on your mind outside politics? 

[00:47:11] Beth: During our Dear Beth conversations on Instagram, we keep getting questions about making friends as adults. And I love these questions cause I think that's really hard. I think that's harder than it should be. It feels like such a rip-off to get to adulthood and not have a built-in best friend who's in your class or on your floor at the dorm or whatever.

Just really frustrating to me that it doesn't work that way. And so what I wanted to think about with you today, Sarah is that I have this theory, that adult friendship is really just about follow-through. Most people are looking for friends. I know very few people who are like, I'm full up. Don't need another person in my life.

There are some people who are like that, but most people are not right. There are lots and lots of people out there. The volume of messages alone that we get. Here at this political podcast about looking for a connection with other folks as friends indicates that this is a big issue and there are lots of articles you can read about it.

And I think knowing and assuming that most people are interested in forming new relationships means that getting that done is just about follow-through. It's about being the person who's willing. After people have said we should get together to be like, okay, let's pick a date. And to send the text message saying, let's do this. Or everybody, I'm just going to make dinner this night, come over and have it with me if you'd like. It is really about dropping your expectations around what hospitality looks like to impress other humans that you'd like to be friends with and just trusting them to fold into your life. Do you remember desperate Housewives?

Oh, yeah. I love that show. 

I loved it too. Okay. Total honesty. My first foray into adulthood when I graduated school started working full-time didn't have kids yet. I could go pretty Bree. I could go pretty. I didn't want anybody to bring a dish to my house because it might not match my serving ware or go with my menu.

I also didn't want anybody to help me clean up because I felt like I was inviting them into my home and your experience as a guest should be a seamless one. And boy have children knocked me out of that place in a beautiful way because I feel like I have better relationships now that I will just invite people over and order pizza or allow people to do the dishes with me or whatever.

So I just want to, I guess today, my little encouragement is to be the person who follows through, but don't make that responsibility more than it has to be. 

[00:49:34] Sarah: I grew up in a home and a family that is very oriented to hospitality. My mom is one of four. My grandmother is one of four and we would get together with those families pretty often. There was lots of potlucking. There was lots of shared cleanup, you know, my mom would run herself, ragged, getting ready for those events and still does in a way that I don't feel obligated to, but my mom also hosted and continues to host a lot. And I learned from her that like, if you keep your house, you know, 60% clean, it's a lot easier to just have people over whenever you want. And then if you lower your level too, when they come over, it doesn't need to be 100% clean. Like you're just more likely to host, right? You keep the every day a little more together and lower your standards for hospitality. And you can have people over.

We have people over a lot. We have a nice big deck. I mean, I had people over for the first day of school and there were pallets of sand in the middle of a construction project. Stay away from the sand, you know, and I know, some people wouldn't have had anybody in their backyard without the like complete landscaping makeover. That's just not where I'm at. It's more important for me to get together with my people. 

I will say this though, as the person who does that, it does get old, you know, sometimes you get in groups of people and you're like, why am I the only one that ever says when are we getting together? And I just have to remind myself, like, it's not because they're thinking about doing it.

And then they don't, it's just like that. They. Talk themselves out of it, or they're so busy, they don't think about it, to begin with like that. There's just, there's a lot of pulls on all of our time and just based on personality and a lot of things or organizational skills or a FA, or exactly what I just listed, like a family history of hosting, so that you're more comfortable with it.

Like I'm usually that person, but I do, it does sometimes hurt my feelings that I'm the only person. So yeah. If everybody could do that more, it would be really Grish. 

[00:51:25] Beth: I grew up the same way Sarah, I took for granted that you had other people over for dinner and it has been a real shock to my system that like a lot of people just don't. More people don't than do.

It has been very surprising to me. And I have to remember when I get my feelings hurt or get in that space, that hosting is expensive. Even when you lower your standards. If there there's an expense associated with it. That's hard. Lots of people can't keep their house 60% clean for a huge variety of reasons. But lots of people really struggle with the expectations around hosting or just the mental load of getting people together is something that they can't manage.

[00:52:02] Sarah: Well, most people, we mean women. That's the other component of this conversation. It's a very gendered idea about hosting. I mean, a huge, a huge, probably the number one reason that we host a lot at my house is because my husband cooks, he does the entire food part of the hosting. He plans the menu. He checks for food allergies. He does the grocery shopping. He cooks the food. I do the decorating and cleaning and getting ready and cleaning up. Like if I had to do both parts of that, we would not have a holiday open house. We would not have. I mean, the things that I do, that he doesn't have any part of like our school rituals. I get the, I bring in a cookie cake and I buy ice cream.

There's no cooking. Like, you know, I think that that's the other component of this is like a lot of times the hospitality falls to the woman in the relationship and it's too much to handle all by yourself. 

[00:52:52] Beth: Chad is really oriented to hospitality too. Like he hosts the draft for the fantasy football league and he hosts the poker game or whatever.

And we work together anytime we were having people over to get ready for those, for those folks to come. And he suggests opening our house up. And he's really good at saying to me, like, that's enough, you don't need to make another dish. And I need that. And so yeah, that partnership is an essential component.

And just like remembering that all those dynamics are at work helps me be okay that I am consistently coming back to say, do you want to do this without feeling like, am I like desperate for friends and people do this, but, or just feeling bad and saying yes to me? 

[00:53:35] Sarah: Well, I like to think that there's a huge component of hospitality as we host all of you here twice a week. So thank you for joining us again. Don't forget. We offer loads of premium content on Patreon and Apple Podcast Subscriptions. Beth tackled a request from Mike on yesterday's Nightly Nuance. And Beth, I thought the way Mike asked for this content was so funny, you should share it. 

[00:53:55] Beth: Yeah. Mike, in addition to giving us lots of other feedback and ideas, said, because I'm a flawed human, I really want to hear Beth break down the Michigan judge’s sanctions on Sidney Powell and Lin Wood. And I said, Mike, I'm a flawed human too. Let's do it. And so we got a little schadenfreude court moment in last night's Nightly Nuance. 

[00:54:18] Sarah: I mean, aren't we all Mike aren't we all listen. Okay, you beautiful flawed humans will be back in your ears on Friday and until then, keep it nuanced, y'all.

[00:54:36] Beth: Pantsuit politics is produced by studio D podcast production. Elise Knapp is our managing director. 

[00:54:41] Sarah: Megan Hart is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

[00:54:47] Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names):  Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, Danny Ozment, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Karin True, Amy Whited, Emily Holladay, Katy Stigers.

[00:55:13] Beth:   Melinda Johnston, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

Sarah: To support Pantsuit Politics, and receive lots of bonus features, visit patreon.com/pantsuitpolitics. 

Beth: You can connect with us on our website, PantsuitPoliticsShow.com. Sign up for our weekly emails and follow us on Instagram @PantsuitPolitics. 

[00:55:30] Sarah: I'm not comfortable yet. Hold on.

[00:55:32] Beth: Listen with everything in front of us. Get comfortable. That's what I'm saying.

[00:55:38] Sarah: Okay.