When the News is Overwhelming

Topics Discussed

• Hurricanes, Explosions, and a Wall of Hard Things

• Local Civics & Placemaking with Ryan Salzman

• Outside of Politics: The White Lotus

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Episode Resources

• Pantsuit Politics Peloton Ride

• Waverly flooding victims: Family and friends reflect on the loved ones lost (Tennessean)

• The Point Is That People in the South Are Suffering (The New York Times)

• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

• Mike White Accepts the Criticism (Vulture)

• Author explores ways to change politics with 'placemaking' (Shreveport Times)

• Dr. Ryan Salzman

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ryan Salzman: Placemaking is working in what we kind of call the built environment. So infrastructure areas, these could be parks. These could be streets. It could even be, this is gonna sound kind of weird, but like things in the air that you are taking a space. And you're making a place out of it. So you're activating it in some way in placemaking does not have to be for political purposes.

Pop-up markets are a good example of placemaking. You have a vacant parking lot. They throw a pop-up Christmas fair in it. And that's making places taking a space and making a place a little free libraries are an example.

[00:00:42] Sarah: This is Sarah 

Beth: and Beth. 

Sarah: You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

[00:00:46] Beth: The home of grace-filled political conversations.

[00:01:09] Sarah: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of pantsuit politics. We are here. Together at our team retreat in Hilton head, South Carolina. 

[00:01:18] Beth: Thank you so much to Jolie for allowing us to stay in your beautiful house here. It is a perfect spot for us to think about the future of the show and think about just how to tighten up what we do and do it better.

Lots of you have contributed in a variety of ways to making this week special and we just thank Jolie and all of you. 

[00:01:35] Sarah: So on today's show, we're going to talk about the hurricane and the tragic loss of our soldiers and Kabul and the continued tragedy of Delta. And specifically, we're going to talk about how to hold all of these things at the same time.

And in our main segment, we're going to share our conversation with Dr. Ryan Salzman and assistant professor of political science at Northern Kentucky university about civic engagement, which we think will be just what we all need after the conversation in our first segment. And then as always we'll share what we're thinking about outside politics.

Okay. I have a big announcement before we get started. It's really big news. I'm really excited about it. Okay. We've had lots of requests. And we're going to do a Pantsuit Politics Peloton ride together. I think I set this up correctly. We shall see on Tuesday, September 7th at 7:00 PM central standard time, we'll be taking a 30 minute ride with Cody Rigsby.

I'm going to try to figure out how to video chat y'all but you have to be following me. And I have to be following you. It's at bluegrass red. So make sure you're following me. Please join us. There's a link in the show notes so you can schedule the ride. So we're all there together. I am so excited about this.

My Peloton passion knows no end. Most of y'all who are also Peloton riders, passion knows no end. We're going to meet up. We're going to share that passion together on a pantsuit politics ride. 

[00:02:53] Beth: Speaking of following, if you want to follow along with our retreat while Sarah, Alise, Meghan and I are working together in person, make sure to follow us on Instagram @PantsuitPolitics, my friend and our resident photographer Jen is going to be doing stories and behind the scenes peeks of what's happening. And we would love for you to be on the journey here with us.

[00:03:22] Sarah: As we sit here at the start of another week, we're recording on Monday, we looked around and realized that the wall of hard things just keeps getting higher. It's not just hurricane Ida that made landfall last night and Louisiana and Mississippi, and the terrible images of those states and the suffering that the citizens there are going through.

It's not just learning the names and stories and heartbreaking ages of the 13 military members. We lost last week in watching the remains come back to our shores. It's not just the ongoing, desperate pleas from all our doctors and nurses across the country who are drowning under the crushing persistence of Delta.

It's all of it. It's just, it's all of it. 

[00:04:05] Beth: I read an editorial this morning about the flooding in middle Tennessee. And the writer Margaret wrinkle said, if the pictures break your heart, it's the stories that will kill you. And I think that that has really been true for me over the past few days, because we have always had compounding tragedies throughout all of his human history.

We always will have them to some extent for a very long time. We've had news coverage of those tragedies that, that when you pay attention can hit you all at once and feel overwhelming. But I think we're in a new era where the way that social media enables individual storytelling for all the good that creates in the world.

And it does it significantly ramps up the anxiety and heartbreak and the feeling that I need to do something to help and that there are endless needs to meet. And then I am powerless. If I'm not meeting all those needs, it's just a lot to take in. 

[00:05:06] Sarah: There's this instinct I have. And I've talked about on the show to say, you know, at least it's not, at least Donald Trump's not president.

I was thinking about this this morning. And I realize it's just so different. It's like, you know, when you have something to focus on and be mad at, that's just such a different emotional journey than realizing you're just sad and scared. And it's, it's like we're coming off the intensity of having a place to direct all our fear, all our anxiety, all our anger.

We can just direct it at him and that's not the case anymore. And I think in some ways, it's, I don't know if that if it's harder or easier, it's just different. It's just different. Not to have been in that space for so long where you can like look at one person and say, you're the problem. Even if you knew it was bigger, even if you knew there was way more going on, like, it just, it's a very different space to being in now that he is not president anymore.

You know, the complexity of the issues are on full display all the time. And they were still complex underhand, but it was a crutch, right? To just say, it's him, he's the problem. He's the syndrome of all this heartbreaking grief and fear and danger. It's just him, it's all his fault. And so I dunno, it's this weird thing of this weird paradox of feeling like, oh, it's so much better because at least he's not in charge and realizing like, yeah, but it's still bad even though he's not in charge.

[00:06:35] Beth: Well, I think it's a good reminder that we really never live in a villain or hero kind of time and as much good as I think this administration has done. It was never going to be a savior. Even if we didn't have truly unusual moments happening or truly historic decisions being made. It's just a really hard job always.

And being a person is always going to be difficult and overwhelming. And I think what is so tough about the series of stories that we're navigating this week? When I think about pandemic Afghanistan and weather-related disasters, hurricanes fires, droughts, flooding just makes everything feel so fragile.

My therapist talked a lot when I was working with him about the spell of solidity and how you need as a child to go through life, believing that things are sturdy. And then as an adult, there is this really painful process of stripping away. That story. And breaking that spell of solidity. And I just think the universe is taking that a bit far right now for me.

 And it's why, you know, as we talk about sort of coping mechanisms with all of this, I think some of us are going to cope by really leaning into those personal stories, those personal photos, what some of these incredible service members were saying about their work on social media before they had died.

Some of us are going to really need those to cope. I am finding myself needing to turn away from a lot of that because it's a level of empathy that I had just can't manage right now. I certainly can't dive into nine 11 retrospectives right now. It's not good for me. And I think some of us are going to be in the mode of I've got to donate to every cause we're just going to have a variety of reactions here.

And I mostly want to articulate that just to say, when the spell of solidity is breaking, a lot of reactions are valid reactions. 

[00:08:41] Sarah: Well, I think what is particularly difficult about the loss of our service members is even though it adds to the complexity of what's happening all around us, it's the first time in a long time, we don't have to deal with the complexity of losing service members and a combat mission, right.

It was a humanitarian mission. And so it, I think it simplifies our grief in a way as citizens. I mean, the grief of the family members is it's whole a, is a whole other thing, and it's never simple, but I think, you know, as American citizens, when we lose service members and we have to think about why were they there?

What were they doing? I mean, I mean, McGrath writes about this journey that she took, like dealing with the reality of her PTSD and what she was doing over there and dropping bombs and all of that. And I think that that's. Like its own journey, but just, you know, seeing that the service members, like even down to their Instagram posts within the, you know, days before they lost their lives were just, they were just helping and they were, they were feeling so proud of the health they were doing.

And I think that like opens up this whole other well of grief because there's not this complexity of like, thinking about what they were doing or why they were doing it or, or any, or why we were there. It's just, they were helping people and they lost their lives, helping people. And that's just so heartbreaking.

And you know, this, the solidity is so true. I not to make this episode endorsement of therapy, but you think about a moment with one of my former therapists where I was, where I was expressing, you know, guilt and concern, basically that my, my middle son was like crying and upset. And she looked at me honestly and said, did you think that he would never cry or be upset?

And I thought, I mean, no, I just thought it would be like my pre-approved times that I decided he needed to learn a lesson and it was okay if he was crying upset and still honestly, even then I didn't like it, but the way she phrased that made me realize, like, what was my expectation. And I kind of had that aha moment with the globe this week.

Like, what is my expectation that children around the world will never suffer is my expectation that like, is this goal I have in mind of a global community at peace without strife or violence or death. I think sometimes that is what I have in my mind. And so anything short of that feels like I'm doing something wrong or we're doing something wrong.

That, that solidity is the goal and we can achieve it. When, in reality, I know that we can, I know that there's no space that we get to. Where there is no suffering and where there is no death and when there is no violence it doesn't mean that I think reducing suffering shouldn't always be our goal, but I've realized that I do hold this idea that maybe if we did the right things, if America in particular for America was using its mind, maybe we could achieve this, this magical place of peace and human flourishing.

And I just, I think as I think through the situation in Afghanistan, in particular, in the mistakes we keep making over and over again. And even, you know, when it comes to the pandemic and natural disasters that there isn't the space we can get to where there's no suffering. And it's not that if we do everything right, that's available to us and we've just done everything wrong.

And that's why we're not there. 

[00:12:24] Beth: As I listened to you say that I keep thinking. Well, we are doing some things wrong and we are doing some things right. And that too will always be the condition of being human. A corollary to everything that you're saying is I read several opinion pieces this morning that were really helpful reminders to me that all the world's suffering, at least outside of our immediate homes.

This certainly doesn't apply if you are sheltering in place in Louisiana right now, or if you are putting air filtration systems in your home because the smoke is so bad, the suffering that is not localized is always being curated for us. And in particular, I was reading about Afghanistan and about what the reality on the ground has been there for the last 10 years.

And how had we chosen it? We could have had stories like the one we're seeing now in front of us every single day, because they, things were happening. American service members did die. The Taliban did horrible things. They were increasing their power. It didn't happen overnight. It was presented to us overnight, and I'm not mad at anybody about that.

There is no other way. We can't keep up with all of the suffering happening across the globe at all. 

[00:13:46] Sarah: Yeah. This was not the first dignified transfer ceremony in the last 10 years. 

[00:13:52] Beth: And that doesn't minimize its importance and it doesn't minimize the importance of all of those ceremonies that happened when none of us were paying attention and it wasn't front-page news.

And I think that just keeping some perspective, it's not that it really makes me feel better. That terrible things are always happening all around us. But it does put me more in the space. You're talking about Sarah, where I adjust my expectations and I think more than anything, I resist the temptation to believe that I must have an opinion, a decisive one about how this could be better.

I think a lot of you are struggling with what is my decisive opinion about how this withdrawal from Afghanistan could have been better. And I'm struggling with that too. And it helps me to let that go a little bit when I recognize how very much is unfolding right now, all across the globe that I don't see, I am at peace this morning, just knowing that I don't have to make the kinds of decisions that the governor of Louisiana is having to make.

Right. Or that disaster relief personnel all across the country are having to make those are hard choices and it just doesn't benefit those folks for me to sit on my couch at home, deciding that I've got a better perspective on what they should be doing than they do. And then I can kind of bring more of that to the president and to the military establishment and to the foreign policy establishment.

And you know, all of these folks who are in positions where I don't even know that right and wrong are often available. It is just, what is the call that we make today based on how we understand things?

[00:15:27] Sarah: Well, I think about this moment in Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff, where she says, I realized that I intellectually knew that I couldn't be the perfect wife and the perfect mother, but I thought maybe someone out there was achieving it, like secretly in the recesses of my mind.

I thought, well, yeah, I'm not perfect, but somebody. Somebody is out there making it happen. And I think that's what we do with ourselves. And I think that's how we, we think about the global community rethink about politics, where you think about foreign policy is, will yell. We know perfection is not available, but secretly we think somebody could do it.

Somebody could get it right or somewhere, somewhere in the world, they are getting it right. And that's just not true. And so that's not like you said to make myself feel better. I think it's just to offer up some self-compassion because if we're going to move forward as a global community, in this information environment, self-compassion is going to have to be one of the tools on the table, not just bombarding ourselves with this idea that we're just getting it wrong.

We're getting climate change wrong. We're getting foreign policy wrong. We're getting domestic policy wrong. Our politics are broken. Everything is bad. Like it's just, that's not sustainable. I mean, it's not, and it's not also not. It's just not. And you know, I think that the media is. Built upon a foundation that thrives on conflict, thrives on pointing out what's wrong and it's valuable and it's important.

And also we cannot let that be the entirety of our perspective. You know, I think a lot of what's going on with Afghanistan right now, and Matt Yglesias wrote about this this morning. And I agree with him is there is a rush to show, see, we're neutral. We were hard on Trump, but we can be hard on the department too.

And there's like a component of that that really bugs me. And I think it is, it's like baked into the model and it just feels anxiety and it fuels unnecessary criticism and it feels distrust. And I understand that there's nobody at the helm of the ma what is the mass media like looking out for this stuff.

And so that just means as consumers, we have to keep, that has to be a part of our analysis as taking this stuff in and thinking through. I can feel, I can read something and it can make me feel something, but I can't let that be the end of the story. I can't say like, well, that, that sounds right. And that makes me mad and that's all there is to it.

We have to keep thinking and have to keep questioning and have to, and sometimes I have to turn away and say, I don't need an opinion on this, or I'm not making decisions about this. And my outrage won't help anything except make me feel more anxious and more fearful. 

[00:18:10] Beth: To your point about self-compassion, which I think is such a good one as we think more globally. I keep thinking about this question that I got on Instagram last week, a teacher asked how to better support kids who are struggling with wearing a mask in the classroom. And this is where I think self-compassion has to be part of the equation, not just globally, but in our, in terms of what's in front of us right now as well.

I didn't answer the question because I don't have an answer for that question. As I thought about it and really tried to put myself in the shoes of 21st graders, all from homes that have different perspectives on masks, wearing at school, all feeling different ways in their bodies today. You know, since I have a first grader, I thought about kids who just can't be still or kids who are really excited about animal crossing.

And don't want to think about anything else or, or are hungry this morning or whatever. Just the array of needs that you meet as a teacher in a classroom like this. I just don't think there is an answer to how do you encourage kids who are struggling with wearing a mask. And at the same time, I am certain that the person who asked that question did it in a hundred small ways that no one could verbalize, but she just did.

So I think it's so smart of you, Sarah, to say it is. Unhelpful to think everything is falling apart all the time and untrue because it is so much easier to pull out what's wrong, or to pull out where the suffering is than to pull out all of the ways that we are supporting each other and that we're doing it just by being together.

And I think that's why I'm excited about what we're going to share in the next segment because it does help me to sort of lean into tending to what's in front of us when everything is, is overwhelming. 

[00:20:06] Sarah: We've been talking about on our retreat, the body keeps the score. And I think what we do is we individualize so much of this and we say, we're learning that there's trauma in our psychology and our souls and that it's connected to our body and that our body keeps the score.

And that there's this energy flow between these things that we think are separate that aren't. And I guess what I'm saying is that's true. In our body politic too. It keeps the score both good and bad. There's more going on. Then that article in front of you, we have more information in front of us on hurricane Ida, on the wildfires, and Afghanistan than we ever had in human history.

And we still don't understand the way that you would if you were living it, if you're on the ground. And I mean, in both good ways and bad that there is a connectedness, that there is an energy flow, both good and bad that there is this body. That's keeping the score that is surviving and adapting and also holding trauma.

And we're not going to get that through a news article. And I think just keeping that in mind helps make the news articles easier to take. We chose this conversation with Dr. Ryan Salzman to share next because I think it's the ultimate lesson in this, that there is so much more. Going on in all of our individual lives and all of our communities, both suffering and thriving, then, then we can ever understand from just consuming media, you know, Dr.

Salzman teaches political science and teaches civic engagement, but he's bringing those lessons of civic engagement to fruition in his own life. And that is what we are so excited to share.

[00:22:14] Beth: Thank you for joining us, Ryan. I really liked your book. I would love for you to start by telling everyone the story that kicked off your research. 

[00:22:24] Ryan Salzman: Well, there's a, there's a couple of things. In the book, the first thing I talk about is this painting of a crosswalk. And I, and I think that probably most of us have a similar experience that we've heard of in a community that our friends live in, or we live in where somebody was painting a cross-walk and they wanted to do it, but it was this big process.

And since I sit on my city council and in my town, which is a square mile in size. I, of course, was at the table when these decisions were being made about whether or not this crosswalk could even be painted. And it seemed like such a shocking question to even ask. Then my first thought was, well, we're not painting it rainbow.

So yeah. I think that kind of the haters wouldn't care that much about that, but come to find out there's this interesting mix of things that occurs when we try to do things in the physical environment that we consider public goods, like a street. And so there's so many competing interests that are a part of that, that whether it's the liability, that's going to be leveled supposedly by an insurance company, the department of transportation, the people who live on that intersection, there's going to be some conflict surrounding that.

But what was great about it is that what most people saw was neighbors. Coming together because they were concerned about pedestrian safety near a school. And because they were concerned, they had this really interesting idea which again is somewhat universal, but it was definitely interesting in our community, which was to paint a crosswalk in order to attract drivers attention to that and have them just be a bit more attentive to what was going on.

And they didn't just ask the city to do it, you know, Hey, get public works out there and paint it and let's employ the city engineer and to design it. But instead they did it themselves and it was so much fun to do. And then at the end, and this is something I've learned about placemaking. They had to have a party.

They had to celebrate what they had done. And they had this, a block party is a very traditional block party, but it was to break in the crosswalk. And so this crosswalk of these variable blue colors, you know, great pictures of kids running on them, playing on them. They had a fire pit in the middle of the street and then really to add to it.

And this is where a lot of the motivation for my research comes from. They decided to have which actually at first what they were calling a candidate's petting zoo. So it was a meet the candidates event, but they kind of put them all in a yard, like you'd put a petting zoo in a yard and they said, come meet the candidates.

So it was people running for state rep, I think people running for state Senate, but then of course, a lot of city council members as well. And so this really simple. Desire to improve the built environment to help these kids ended up becoming this big social capital opportunity. And on top of that, a traditional political experience as well, a meet the candidates, but a meet the candidates with a beer in your hand and kids running around your feet.

And so in that way, it was quite unique. And what's really cool, of course, is that even after it was gone, the crosswalk is still there. And the crossing guard, again, just today, I asked her, I said, Hey, I'm going to be going on a podcast to talk about the crosswalk show. You tell them it works. You tell them that people do drive slower because of that crosswalk.

And so that was, that was one of the stories. That's the story that led the book and it still is something that really gives me the warm fuzzy. 

[00:25:58] Sarah: What do you mean when you say place-making?

[00:25:59] Ryan Salzman: Placemaking is working in what we kind of call the built environment? So infrastructure areas, these could be parks.

These could be streets. It could even be, this is going to sound kind of weird, but like things in the air that you're taking a space and you're making a place out of it. So you're activating it in some way and placemaking does not have to be for political purposes, but it certainly captures a lot of the things that we see now as being popular trends, things like pop-up markets are a good example of placemaking you have a vacant parking lot, they throw a pop-up Christmas fair in it, and that's making places. Taking a space and making a place. Little free libraries are an example of placemaking. The crosswalk example is a good one. Murals, any kind of public art would be a good example of placemaking. And placemaking something that we've done ever since we've had civilization ever since, you know, you had plazas and any kind of outdoor area parts that people would come together.

That is essentially placemaking, but placemaking the way I use it now is more deliberate and it tends to be a more strategic set of actions and associational behaviors. 

[00:27:12] Beth: How critical to the placemaking that you're talking about and the placemaking that your book argues is really an important expression of democracy, especially in the current moment. How much of that depends on the piece that you mentioned that neighbors work together to do this themselves, not they lobbied the city and had city employees paint the crosswalk blue. 

[00:27:32] Ryan Salzman: The social capital or associational behavior side of placemaking is essential to it being nested in democracy. If it's just the city doing it, then you lose that connection with your neighbor and. We've learned over the last 30, 40 years is that those connections seem to be fraying and even disappearing. And so if we don't find a way to re-establish those connections, then future action will be less. That’s a good way to put it.

The future action will be less impactful because there's, it's going to be harder to overcome disagreements with one another. And then there will be, it'll be harder to sustain those efforts as well. Some of these things with placemaking that take a lot of energy, they take a lot of time. Many are just pop up they're here, and then they're gone.

But some of them take days, weeks, months, even years to execute and maintain. And so the way that those relationships are able to be fostered and developed makes the whole system stronger. And that is what is so important for democracy right now, particularly American democracy. 

[00:28:46] Sarah: Yeah, it reminds me of an interview I heard with Los Angeles mayor Eric Garcetti. And he said, just telling people it's the right thing to do to embrace your neighbors. No matter how diverse they are. Just like sort of leaning on that moral or ethical motivation. It just doesn't work. Like it just doesn't work, but saying, here's a problem I'd like you to work on together. Here's the thing I'd like you to do together. Giving them a shared purpose and a mission does work. It connects people. It gives something. For people to, to latch onto and to see that they are connected to the other person, to their fellow citizens. So that makes perfect sense to me.

How do we find more opportunities to do that? 

[00:29:23] Ryan Salzman: Yeah, well, and you know, that's kind of tricky. There are these events placemaking events. As I refer to them, they tend to happen through existing organizations and existing associations. So one of the best things that you can do to try to identify placemaking opportunities or things like that to build this association will behavior that are, that are fun, that you want to do is to find a group that you would.

To associate with neighborhood associations, church groups, I think are excellent. You know, very strong networks that even have a little bit of budget behind them. These things are rarely free. They don't have to be expensive, but they're rarely free. So finding an existing organization, preferably one that you're even already involved with and then trying to build it's a very placemaking is a very yes.

And kind of scenario. Yes. We can be a book club and we can build a little library. You know this is not, doesn't have to be difficult. And in fact, building the libraries and another opportunity to get there. Drink a beer drink some wine or whatever it is you do with your book club. Talk about things, let the kids run around.

It's just another opportunity to be together. That's then going to make the book club more enjoyable. That's going to make your fellowship at church more enjoyable. Your you know, the before and after time at church, before the service begins that you're seeking out people to work on these projects.

So that's really the best way. If I were to suggest to somebody that they wanted to engage in, placemaking that the second-best way is to just do it yourself. There's actually a, quite a bit of placemaking that's done. That's called tactical urbanism. And the whole point is to be very covert about it actually in part, because it may be illegal, what you're doing, how it's one, it's one of those illegalities like jaywalking like chances are, you know, nobody's doing it.

Ticket you in at worst, it would be a ticket. I've often thought, you know, beginning of crosswalks, I'd love to just paint little ducks, like mama ducks with ducklings, walking behind them and paint that in the crosswalk, just to send the image, you know, to let the drivers know families are here, families are gone.

If I did that, I would do it without telling anybody I was going to do it. 

[00:31:38] Sarah: Well, it's like the person who actually knits the little hats for the ducks in Boston, like they're the actual ducks in the park and they have like costumes. 

[00:31:45] Ryan Salzman: Yeah. Or, or whether they call it like there's a lot of knitting that goes on.

It's kind of weird to say, but that's a perfect example of placement. Have you ever stood around a bike rack? Like you will stand around a bike rack. That's been knitted all over, you know what I mean? That's, it's really a Testament. And then you talk to the person standing next to you about that. So those kinds of things, they don't, they just take somebody who's interested in it.

And you do have to have, I hesitate to use the word skill because definitely when I started building little libraries, I would not use the word skill, but whether you're making hats for ducks or painting on the road or building little light people don't live in little libraries. This isn't you, you're not trying to keep a homeless person warm.

There's, it really kind of lowers that expectation, which also makes it a lot of fun. 

[00:32:28] Beth: Something that Sarah and I talk about a lot is that our existing answers for how do I get involved in politics? Or how do I get involved in democracy are really disempowering. It's all very passive. Well, you can make calls for a candidate, which is, you know, not a fun experience for me.

I'm, I'm a real introvert and I do not enjoy calling people and clearly bothering them. Or you can donate, right? Like, but our answers are, you can write a letter to your representative. Placemaking I love as an answer to how do I get involved in democracy? Because it is really empowering. And I think that element of risk associated with some of it is maybe part of the empowerment.

I love that you started your book with the crosswalk example because here’s a group of people that just said, fine, there's some risks we're going to take it. It's worth it to us in this situation. 

[00:33:13] Ryan Salzman: Absolutely. And you find that the policies, you know, you're getting you to say, well, I want to get involved in politics.

Well, how has painting across walk getting involved in politics? Well, I'll tell anybody who's listening right now. Go try to paint a crosswalk near your house, and you will learn very, very quickly to what extent is this is involved. When I tried to build little libraries for the first time in my community of Bellevue, Kentucky, I got a letter from the city saying that if we built these, we would be cited for building little free libraries.

So it doesn't take long before you're sitting in a room with council people, flanking you and bureaucrats kind of everywhere to realize that it does touch these things. And so it really is an excellent way. And it's not only that, but it's, it's an excellent way to get involved. Whether you realize you're getting involved.

But also getting involved with people who share a common interest to you and placemaking has this intersectionality to it. We just up the alley that's behind my house. We painted with polka dots a number of years ago. And so we were updating those polka dots this season. And yeah, so we had people that just wanted to come out and do it cause they love the alley.

We have others that love painting. And so they wanted to come on and be a part of that. And so it was really interesting to me, the number of different reasons that people came and almost none of those reasons had to do with the public policy of pedestrian safety. It had to do with all of these other myriad things.

And yet you only had to talk for about a minute before they all, the second thing they jumped to was public policy. And you learn so much in that process and this is all so empowering and it's also a great way to make a name for yourself. So when you're asking, how do you get involved? Well, one of the best ways to get involved is to have somebody ask.

To get involved. And one of the best ways to have somebody ask you is by doing something cool and effective, that attracts attention. And so that's what these things can be as well. And then a final takeaway when we think about that is the beautiful thing is, you know, or maybe the terrible thing about getting involved in traditional politics is that when it's over, if your side loses you lost and you're done, you know, at least for that election cycle if you build a little library, Even if your side loses, whatever that means.

There's still a little library there. I've been trying to convince political candidates to put up little libraries and do things like that for years now. And I said, you know, you're running in Northern Kentucky as a Democrat. For example, you're going to lose. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to you.

You should run. This is important. You're driving the policy conversation. You're activating people, but if you built 10 little libraries, even after your election loss, you could still drive by these little libraries and you watch kids get books out of them, and you will derive a sense of satisfaction and purpose from that long after the election has gone.

So it really, I've always been impressed by the durability of the influence positive influence of on people of placemaking. 

[00:36:11] Sarah: Well, and I think placemaking, for me, speaks to something. I have a lot of concerns. With, when we talk about politics and how it plays out in our lives, which is, you know, the phone calls and the, you know, social media engagement.

And a lot of the ways we traditionally think about politics, especially national politics speaks to a sort of political hobbyism. And listen, I'm not trying to bust on political hobbies and mama political podcasts, or, you know, I think that there's, that we forget that politics is about power. And even at a very small level, like the crosswalk, there are stakes and stakes speak to power.

And I think that getting our feet wet with that, and like putting a little skin in the game beyond just electoral skin in the game, not to downplay the stakes of that, the stakes of that are extraordinarily high, but to remind ourselves that like there are stakes also at the governmental level, not just at the electoral level and, and sort of seeing that play out beta crosswalk, be it a No.

I read a book where they were talking about some of the political parties who were hosting like car clinics so that people could come in and get small car things fixed or daycare on electorial on election days so that people who had to work and the schools were off, had an option, like really providing impact in people's lives.

That's what the like old party bosses used to do, right. Is like show up in people's lives. I'm reading Susan page's new biography of Nancy Pelosi. And she talks about Nancy Pelosi's mother. Nancy Pelosi came from a political family in Baltimore. Her, her father was the mayor of Baltimore, had a. Favor file.

And people would come in and ask for something and she'd say, okay, we're going to help you get this job or do this, that like this real impact in your life. Your name goes in the file and the next person that needs something I'm going to call you, you know, like at this, this very cause that's what helps us do is you do this stuff, you build connections and you say, okay, you helped me out.

I'm going to help you out this time. Or I'm going to show up at your event because you showed up at my event. It forms those connections. It raises the stakes. It shows you that sort of flow of power and connection inside a community. And that that's really what government and politics can be about more than just reaching out to strangers and trying to convince them to vote for your candidate.

[00:38:15] Ryan Salzman: No, when it became such a thing that that's all we do in politics, and maybe it's been that way my whole life. I remember growing up and, you know, going out when I was seven years old and putting up the caucus signs with my dad and you know, as to caucus and I was from central Texas. So, you know, you can imagine how that one went over.

Although we should remember that Ann Richards was governor of Texas at the time. So it was a different world that we lived in then, but yeah, that's what it was. And it was, but it was even going to a lot like barbecue fundraisers and things, and at least those had some social capital intersectionality with it, but yeah.

Somehow along the way, we really started to separate politics from, you know, in putting it in like this partisan camp and then their civics, but the Aristotelian kind of like the ultimate classical ideas that are around politics have nothing to do with elections, but they have instead to do with us as individuals and how we as individuals, you know, manifest our own powers.

Aristotle said, you know, bears have claws and bees have stingers, you know, humans have reasons speech, and that is why we are political animals. And yet again, that, that term politics and political has been totally co-opted, but I'll tell you that's become one of, you know, what you touched on there, Sarah has become one of my biggest battles that I have to wage either with my students or with my neighbors is just trying to help them redefine and reconceptualize politics. And that's it's usually fruitful, but I'll tell you it's not easy. It's not easy to try to help people kind of work through it.

That it's almost PTSD not to use that term flippantly, but people, especially over the last five years, 10 years, 12 years, it's really changed fundamentally how we see the political system. And were burned out by it. But that's where if they can take something like your book, you know, that I think you're wrong, but I'm still listening and then marry it to this, this doing.

And that's one of the things about placemaking is it's about doing things. So, you know, take off your Jersey, but put on your paint smock. You know, that that'd be, that would be the follow-up I'd write to that chapter. So we're put on a different Jersey, the Jersey of your community, the Jersey of whatever it is, that's most important to you.

And you'll find people that want to do that with you. And we saw a lot of that during the black lives matter protests last summer, and those street murals that they painted outside of city halls. There's not a better example of placemaking, you know, they created place within a specific message to the policymakers.

You will not forget this. I will not let you do that. And then the ownership that we can take, even those of us who. Wield a paintbrush, the ownership that you saw with the social media dynamic of that versus the discussion around what black lives matter and the policies associated with that mean, everybody could get behind the mural, the rallying of community support, even if they were skeptical of defunding the police.

And I think that's an important kind of way to discern. And those also those problems related to that, the P-word, right to politics.

[00:41:19] Beth: So much of our polarization feels like an absence of creativity to me. And what I really like about placemaking is that it kind of asks us to reignite our civic imaginations.

And so giving people some more examples of that, I would love for you to tell the story that you told me the first time that we met about your run for council and the dog park. 

[00:41:37] Ryan Salzman: My run for council and the dog park, maybe you'll have to remind me.

[00:41:41] Beth: You were telling me that people really wanted a dog park in your community and that you talked about, and I think you did a pop-up dog park, did you not?

[00:41:50] Ryan Salzman: We did not, but that's what we had suggested is that people do a dog park. So yeah, this is a great thing about place-making and creativity is that there's a side to it. It doesn't have to be this way. And something I should have mentioned already is that place-making is often co-opted by people in power by bureaucrats.

It doesn't mean placemaking's bad, but going back to the beginning of our conversation, Not the same. If you have public works paint on the ground, but this idea of temporariness is, is really cool and it's actually really empowering. And so we had, we were planning on doing that and I was encouraging them to say, you know what, before we spend $10,000 on creating this dog park, and I'll be honest, that is probably a gross underestimation of what it costs to do a dog park.

So this is another thing we learn in, in the process of doing things like placemaking is how expensive stuff is. You think that fencing permanent fencing isn't that expensive? I learned recently we got a bid on one of those water fountains that has a dog water fountain on it to drinking fountain $2,500.

Yeah. I believe that. Yeah, the cheap one, I think that's just the one that we found. So we were suggesting at the time, Beth, that you and I spoke, well, why don't you do a pop-up dog park? What does it cost to rent a fence for a weekend? And then if you can prove. The need, the viability of it, you know, because what if people say, well, the dogs are gonna bark.

Nobody's going to have anywhere to park. Well, are people even going to pick up the dog poop? You know you get these, you can probably rattle through a half dozen kind of nay-saying things. Even if you love dogs and you love dog parks, the creation of one's very different. So what do you do? You test the idea, you test it and you say, well, why don't we put up the fence?

And then at the end of the weekend, what is usually the sentiment? You know, there's plenty of parking. In fact, why don't we make the dog park bigger? 

[00:43:41] Sarah: Lord, people are obsessed with parking. 

[00:43:44] Ryan Salzman: Everybody. Everybody's you, you served on commission, Sara, you know, it's always about parking. It's always about parking. And I live in a highly urban area and it's actually kind of laughable when people complain about parking, but man, it's, it's good.

I look forward to being of a certain age that I can complain about parking. I assume it'll come, it'll come eventually when I'm off council myself, but yeah, test it out. Let's just test it. Let's try it. There's some, it really, you know, edgy organizations out there right now, yard and company who provided the pictures for the books and were actually, he was one of the residents that painted the crosswalk.

They have an urban kind of design and community development business. And a lot of what they lean on is test, test, test, test, don't spend $75,000, $50,000 on something. If you don't know how to even work now, chances are it's going to work. But will it work exactly within those confines? And a pop-up dark park is a great example of that.

And it's also a great way to prove to policymakers that our work, almost anybody will approve something temporary, but getting them to commit to it being permanent. That's a whole other level, but the best way to get them to commit to something for a minute is to show them. So that's the connection that I make in my book.

And in my research, it was a very kind of aha moment. I remember it specifically, I was out on a jog and I thought, how does placemaking, how can we understand this? And then like the political science literature for being, you know, like political parties. Well, it's a demonstration. And demonstration is a word that we use in almost, you know, exchangeable with protest and that.

So you've got to demonstrate you demonstrate it. And so, you know, I'm having a demonstration this week and then people are probably thinking like, oh, we're going to walk arm and arm and we're going to fix the net. No, no, we're actually just going to demonstrate what something looks like. Spray chalk is a thing.

So you can use spray cans that have chalk in them. And so you can create a. You know, using some planters and a parklet would be those things that we've all probably become more familiar with during the, during the pandemic where you take parts of the street and you kind of close it in, so people could sit there or whatever it is they want to do.

You really need some planters, maybe a few cinder blocks, and some spray chalk. And then the reality is once people see it, they enjoy sitting out there. The restaurants enjoy having it, that the next step is city officials taking and running with it. So so yeah, that's so Beth, we never ended up doing the pop-up dog park and not surprisingly, we don't have a dog park in Bellevue still, so, you know but there does come a point, like, sorry guys, I can't do it myself.

I don't have a dog. Not

[00:46:26] Beth: No, but I love that approach. I was thinking about, we got an email from one of our longtime beloved listeners, Bryn, who is really struggling because people are speeding in his neighborhood and it is an all-out war on Facebook about speeding in the neighborhood. We have this in my neighborhood from time to time too.

And I was trying to think like, what's the creative placemaking approach to getting people together, to solve a problem like that. And even having, I don't have an answer yet, but having the question has really helped. 

[00:46:53] Ryan Salzman: Yeah. And there are, there would be a couple of things that I'm sure that those neighbors would come up with.

What, first and foremost, would make them slow down? And this is where we see not only those signs that say kids that play or drive like your kid's knee here and live here. But we see some of those signs that are shaped like kids, you know, so things like trying to pinch the roadway, trying to make it smaller in a weird way, I'd almost suggest, you know... 

[00:47:20] Sarah: Putting cars on the streets so people slow down. That's actually a good idea. 

[00:47:23] Ryan Salzman: Putting cars on the street. 

[00:47:25] Sarah: You have little kids, it feels, it feels out of counterintuitive. Like, well, if I put my car on the street, then my kid can dart out from behind it. But I think you're right. I think in a way it's sort of like pinches it down. It makes people pay closer attention.

[00:47:39] Ryan Salzman:  And using cones. We, this polka dot alley, that's actually adjacent to our house, sits at the side of our house. And yeah, we'll put cones just at the mouth of the alley. We don't close the alley, but we put it at the mouth of the alley and we'll bump them out into the street. So as cars approach, they see the cones.

So I'd suggest that I'd say, put a cone out next to your car. And chances are somebody driving down the street is going to think that there's somebody working around there and they should be careful. They're looking for like the tree trimmers or the utility people think about who you use uses cones. You don't want to get hit by that utility.

You don't want to hit a utility person. Somebody who's working on that, set it out right next to your car. So nobody can claim that you're blocking the street, but there's something about that visual and then take it in because if you leave it out, then once they get used to it. Exactly, it's like the crosswalk flight I have in Bellevue.

They're like we need flashing crosswalk sign. We have one, nobody yields at it. It's not like the ones you see today that are, that are ringed, but it's an old one with a flashing yellow light on it. And I always say, well, we have one and they go where? And I said, exactly, you know, you can put it in. So there are ways to do it, but yeah, pinching the street.

Bump-outs trying to put stuff industry. So this could be your spray chalk, or just take chalk and just write real big in the middle of the street. Slow down. 

[00:49:01] Sarah: Just think too, as you, as we try to tackle these problems, I was thinking it's really important to remember like it's not all going to be fun.

There's going to be a person in your neighborhood or in your community or in your organization that doesn't want to do anything. And there's another person who's going to think that person's the worst. Cause they don't want to do anything. And they're going to want to complain to you and there's going to, like, it's not, I think it's important just to set expectations, make no mistake.

I still think it's a worthwhile endeavor and it's positive. But I think that, you know, we want to consume community relations, right? Like, come in, have the consumer experience and leave it doesn't work like that. Like you have to kind of be invested. You have to get used to the 20% who are loud and complaining the whole time.

And not let them get to you. You have to take two steps forward and three steps back sometimes and still counted a win. Like I just think that we've sort of lost our bearings on what it's like to do this kind of stuff. And it sounds, it sounds like it might, when you use words like chocolate polka dot, it sounds very fun and it is, and also it still involves human beings who can be a real pain in the butt sometimes.

So it's just like, remember that. It's okay. Sorry.

[00:50:06] Ryan Salzman: I'm shocked that you would say that people can be difficult. I just can't believe that. Well, you know, here's the deal haters gonna hate you, you know, that's just all there is to it. And honestly, you need some haters. If, if nobody's hating on what you're doing, I'd argue, you're not doing enough.

[00:50:19] Sarah: Listen, my friend in eighth grade told me a queen with no enemies, no queen. 

[00:50:22] Ryan Salzman: Amen, amen to that. And now that's not to say you should invite, you know hate by any means, but you should assume it's coming. And, and again, Sarah, you know as well as anybody that once you, when you serve in an elected capacity, the wins, it's not three steps forward and two steps back. You're lucky if it's one step forward and 10 steps back and you're you know you're celebrating all through the night for that one win. And yet we have this, we, we sometimes glamorize this idea or romanticize this idea of being an elected official. But if you have something, whether it's people driving too fast on your side, Or something, you know, that we would say is like a higher-level issue in that.

Although I, I think there's probably nothing more than, well, I have a, four-year-old nothing scares me more than people driving too fast on the street. But if you just say a higher-level issue, I'll tell you this right now, you can run on that issue. You can focus on that issue. When you are elected, you will focus on everybody else's issue.

That's so true. Yup. And that's not bad, but, and I know people who want to run because they want to help other people get their issues. That's the perfect reason to run. But if you truly have a pet issue or an issue area that you want to pursue, honestly, you're better off being on the outside, painting, polka dots, and pressuring city leaders, and you will get more allocations and you won't feel like you need to be different to anybody because that's your thing.

And placemaking, you know, that's not perfect. 

[00:51:52] Sarah: That said, I did get the crosswalk I wanted, while a commissioner. 

[00:51:54] Ryan Salzman: Nice, I got, I ran for Bellevue City Council because I want to drinking fountains in our parks. It took nine months to get one and it took another 18 months to get another one. So I'm patting myself on the back.

[00:52:07] Sarah: You're on your way.

And then we had to shut them all down because of COVID. No one can use the shared water routes.

[00:52:12] Ryan Salzman: Why you got to bring that up?

[00:52:14] Sarah: Perfect example, perfect example.

[00:52:17] Beth: But I like Sarah that you're focusing on how there's going to be some friction in the process, which is why I think we have outsourced so much exercise of political power to professionals.

And then we complain that the professionals only do what they do because they need our votes. And so if you want to kind of reclaim that balance, then we take some of that responsibility for the friction onto ourselves. Like maybe I go with the speeding issue really hard, cause I don't need anybody, but for me later, I just need the speeding to stop.

Right. And if people get mad at me in the process, I'm an adult who can handle that. It's a very different situation than if I have an election coming up in a few months. 

[00:52:51] Ryan Salzman: Yeah. To be an ideologue when you're an elected official is a bad thing. I would argue being an idealogue when you have something like that and you're on the outside is a good thing.

I mean, that actually helps you get it done. Right. Policymakers, I think have more respect. Nobody wants an advocate. Who's wishy-washy that makes no sense at all. Or who's spread too thin. We all have those people who show up to city councils and even go down to the Kentucky State Capitol and every other State Capitol.

And there they're down there daily. It's like, is this it? It's like the cones people stopped noticing you. They do absolutely. So to focus in on that. And maybe at that point, if that's really, you want to deal with every issue, you should run for office. But we know how that's likely gonna work out.

[00:53:35] Beth: Right. I would love to just give you a chance to, as we wrap up, talk a little bit more about how big these concepts can be. I think about the speeding example that Brennan offered up. You know he is concerned about this because he doesn't want more of a police presence in the neighborhood. And whether you are a person who says, well, policing leads to inequitable outcomes or a person who says we shouldn't bother the police with trivial stuff like speeding in neighborhoods, we should let them be out, you know, doing more high-impact things.

It seems like that's an objective that people have lots of different politics could get behind. It's hugely impactful if you avoid more police presence in your neighborhood because the neighborhood is working together to solve those problems. So I wonder if there are other contexts where you can kind of help people see, you know, my, my cones here or my pop-up dog park there.

Really connect to the bigger picture. 

[00:54:26] Ryan Salzman: Yeah. I mean, for me, I know you keep coming back to the little libraries idea. I'm hugely passionate about early childhood education. And so little libraries, I feel like not only putting one out in front of my house but making sure that there are some around town and accessible has proven to be a pretty high-level issue.

Kind of surprised me. We have like I said before, we Bellevue is one square mile. And so we're, we're in the urban core. Greater Cincinnati. And now we have about 22 little libraries in our community. And what's even at a higher level is that we've begun working the public library and the public library has endorsed maybe too strong a word, but they've created programs to make sure that library or books are getting into those libraries.

So I believe in literacy, I believe in early childhood education, that these are essential for our communities and for our nation and little libraries helped me get at that thing and then add to it, neighbors walk by, they take books during the pandemic. We put food in our little library. So, you know, people always say, well, create a little free pantry.

And I said, well, why don't you just make a little library and put some canned corn in it? I mean, you can do that. Not surprisingly, the popcorn went first, then the Mac and cheese and the canned vegetables were done last, somehow the carrots, my kids love carrots. So that would be another example of one, a lot of people, their big issues.

And almost all of these things that we're describing are aesthetic. They enhance the value of art and creativity better. I think you asked about creativity or Sarah, maybe as you talked about creativity being kind of missing from policymaking, but some people would say that. In art education, but art more generally is missing from society at large, particularly in small communities.

I'm blessed to be living in Cincinnati, which has, you know, a very vibrant arts community, but that's not true everywhere, but this doesn't have to be fine arts. So that would be another example of how these seemingly small things even working with chalk and being temporary. I mean, we've probably all seen those videos of the monks doing the colored sand, you know, for sometimes days at a time to create these beautiful artistic creations.

And it's a very meditative practice. And then what's the deal at the end. Right. They wipe them away. It's gone. Does that make it less because they. Absolutely not in fact, that's what makes it even more amazing that they do it. And so there would be another example, you know, our arts and literacy and speeding, you know, really that important to society.

Yes. Actually, I set that up. Like I was going to say no, but actually yes, those things are very important and we could say, we want to honor our veterans. There's a placemaking outlet for that. We need to build our economies. Pop-up markets. There's placemaking for that as well. So, you know, whatever your issue is and, and your listeners are welcome to send me, reach out to me and I'd be glad to spitball with them about ideas, or just talk about this further with them too, to try to help connect the dots of how, whatever their issue, that they care so much about how they can use placemaking to help get to those political ends at a pretty high level.

[00:57:32] Sarah: Love that. Well, thank you so much for coming on our show and offering your spitballing consulting for placemaking with our listeners. 

[00:57:39] Ryan Salzman: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:57:41] Beth: Ryan, how can people continue to follow along with your work? 

[00:57:44] Ryan Salzman: Yeah, so they're the best. That's like everybody else, right?

The best ways you can find me on Twitter, but I am on Twitter, RW Salzman, and, and otherwise, you know, just send me an email. I don't, I'm more of a researcher than a, than necessarily a practitioner for hire. But I would certainly love to connect anybody with that. They can reach out to me and my email at Northern Kentucky University, it's Salzmanr1@nku.edu.

They can track me down. I have a city council, Facebook page. That's honestly, probably the best way. It's a public page. So that's Ryan Salzman, Bellevue City Council, and I all the stuff that we do in Bellevue, I definitely promote it there because like I said earlier, it's a great way to campaign, but don't tell.

Don't tell my neighbors that.

[00:58:32] Beth: Thanks so much, Ryan. 

[00:58:34] Ryan Salzman: Thank you so much.

[00:58:46] Sarah: Beth. What's on your mind outside politics? 

[00:58:48] Beth: The White Lotus, I've been dying to talk to you about it. You had to finish it first. We're going to try to have this conversation without spoilers because I don't want anybody to miss the experience of watching The White Lotus.

[00:59:00] Sarah: I just think this spoiler is like the least important part, whatever.

It's fine. But like that part is so unimportant to me. It's like the surprise at the end is like the least impactful part of the series, but it's fine. I will follow the no spoiler. 

[00:59:11] Beth: I agree. But everyone doesn't feel that way. So here's what I keep thinking about and why even though I can't say that I like enjoyed every moment of watching it.

That would be a little strong. I keep thinking about it. And I just made a list of questions that I am going to be thinking about for a long time, because of the white Lotus. First, let me say, we all know that I don't like prestige television. We all know that I would rather be watching survivor than something like the white Lotus.

This hit a good sweet spot for me though, because it was not violent. It was not like let's crawl into the absolute depths of human suffering. It presented these questions that are like everyday questions. I will be thinking for a long time about whether I'll ever let Jane and Ellen bring a friend on vacation.

I will be thinking for a long time about how often I casually make a promise that I probably won't keep or how often I get my hopes up when someone else does that. I will be thinking about just the ways that we all learn things about family members that surprise us. And sometimes we learn that. You know, after we have a chance to react to that surprise and process it with that person.

A big one that I'm going to be thinking about is how often I act like a tourist in someone else's sacred space. That's a huge theme. And a lot has been written about the white Lotus and all of these wealthy white people rolling into Hawaii and vacationing while taking in like bits of a really sacred Hawaiian music and ceremony.

But I haven't even been thinking because of a show about how I treat other people's homes. Like I love being invited to someone else's house for dinner, and that's like their sacred space and I'm kind of a tourist and their sacred space for that moment. And it's just something that I'm going to be considering for a long time.

So I. I loved all of the things that the show has caused me to reflect on. 

[01:01:12] Sarah: First of all, zoom all the way back out. I'm worried that your prestige television, idea of prestige television is like just Breaking Bad. I mean, Mad Men's bright prestige television. Nobody gets murdered. Okay. There is like a really intense moment with a lawnmower, but like, otherwise it's not super violent.

[01:01:27] Beth: It is the depths of misogyny that I have lived enough in corporate America that I don't need it on my television as well. 

[01:01:33] Sarah: Well, the like even I mean, well, I was going to say Sopranos. That's not a good example. Bad example. Yes, yes. 

[01:01:41] Beth: I'll just wait until you bring me a good example. 

[01:01:44] Sarah: I don't know, but I don't know, Friday Night Lights, which is a good reference because Tammy Taylor shines, what's her Connie Britton.

I was like, wait, what's her real name? Connie Britton is so good in this. I don't know if that's prestige television. Definitely not that violent. There's a weird second season, but there is violence in the show too. So at the end, that's the spoiler. It's not really a spoiler that there's violence though. Cause they announced that from the end. I mean, that's why I love prestige television because I want to think about all these different things. I want it, I, that's why I want TV to make me think about hard things. I understand that that is not everyone. When they sit down in front of delusion. Listen, I've always said like I, one of my team stone, she asks hard questions.

So I like my entertainment to be the same way. Like I want to think deep. I want to, I want to go all the way in immediately. And I thought that show did this really well. I thought that it was immediately apparent that this was not a show to numb out that this show is like, is, is taking you on a journey.

But like also not like, I didn't feel like even though I knew we were trying to get to the bottom of the dead body that we see in the first episode, I thought that Mike White did a really great job of just sort of. I don't know. I don't think leading is the right word. Just like exploring some things with us without answers in mind, without destinations in mind, to me, that's what really good television does it, doesn't present a conclusion.

It says like, well, what about this though? But we have a, what about this? And reading some interviews with him, I really just loved his approach to that. And his idea of like, this is what artists supposed to do. It's just supposed to help us ask hard questions and I don't have the answers. And so maybe some of my questions were messed up.

And maybe the fact that I, as a white guy took this TV show to Hawaii is, is, is a critique in and of itself. And that's okay. I just thought that he held all that really, really beautifully. And it was just a good example. I don't want him to do a second season. I think that that's a bad idea. I think the British are much better at saying we did a thing.

It was really good. Let's just leave it there. I'm wondering if Ted lasso should have been like that. If I'm being really honest, because then it becomes numbing, then it becomes. Well, I just watched the office cause it makes me feel good as opposed to, well, it's good art because it presented this little, this little sliver of life and human interaction and said, but like, what about this?

And then when you stretch it forward, well then you're doing something different, which is fine. It's just not my jam. 

[01:04:15] Beth: I have confidence in Mike White though. I loved the show. I loved it more after reading a lot of articles about it. And especially after reading Vulture's interview with him, it's the headline was Mike White Accepts Your Criticism, and he did such an amazing job in that interview of saying yes. 

Yes, I use this music. Yes. I use this space. Yes. I'm a white guy. Yes. I live here. Yes. I personally made the choice to be the rich white guy who moved into Hawaii. And what does all that mean? And yes, we need storytelling from people who aren't like me, who aren't rich white guys who get to live in Hawaii and be on Survivor and live all their dreams.

 And I have stories too, and I don't know how to handle those things. I don't know how to think about all of that. And so I think about some of it through my characters, it just made me, honestly, I would like to be his friend. I would like to sit around and talk about these things with him. Cause I think he has a really interesting, healthy perspective on, on a lot of the difficult questions that surround making a show like this.

[01:05:17] Sarah: Are you going to watch Enlightened? I don't know. No. I watched a little bit of it and I stopped. I did not finish it, even though I knew it was critically acclaimed and I saw where he, I think I watched it too late. See, that's the thing it's like, sometimes they get stuck in time. There's not a lot of it's hard to find really good television because they're responding to a cultural moment that holds up really well.

And so I think that's, what's, that's also, what's hard to get among other seasons. Like I just think like, let's just let it be the, the, the moment it was and not try to stretch that out because then again, it starts, it starts being less about the creativity and the art, and it starts to be more about like the consumption and the capitalism of that particular form.

You know, we've talked about this with TV, anything like they'd get one good thing and they're like, let's do it a million times, which is just not a great instinct. 

[01:06:06] Beth: Well, I would like for someone to make his, his vehicle for Jennifer Coolidge that he talks about in some of these interviews, he had another idea for her and I would watch her read the phone book. I think she is so funny and so interesting to look at and think of like, what's going on behind her eyes. Like she just. I don't know if such a rich character to me in so many ways, 

[01:06:26] Sarah: I never would have said that about her before. She's not a rich character in Legally Blonde. She's not a rich character and Best In Show.

I think that what's so powerful about The White Lotus is we all thought we knew Jennifer Coolidge's shtick. And she was like, oh, I've got so much more to me than you thought that I did. And I think that's really great. 

[01:06:41] Beth: Oh, I always felt her more, Best In Show, in particular. I always felt there was a lot more.

[01:06:45] Sarah: Well, she had some warmth. It wasn't like pure ditz. I'll give her that for sure.

[01:06:48] Beth: But anyway, I really enjoyed it. I'm going to think about these questions for a long time. I just loved all the articles that I read about it and the choices that were made. And so I'm excited about whatever he does next. I'm I'm going to take that second season and watch it for sure.

[01:07:02] Sarah: Well, thank you for joining us for another wide-ranging conversation here and pay at suit politics. We thank Dr. Ryan Salzman for sharing his time with us and as always to all of you. For sharing precious moments of your time with the two of us, we will see you back here on Friday, and until then, keep it nuanced, y'all.

[01:07:32] Beth: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Alise Napp is our managing director.

[01:07:38] Sarah: Megan Hart is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

[01:07:43] Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

[01:07:47] Executive Producers (Read their own names):  Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

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