The Court Can't Handle Abortion

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Transcript

Sarah [00:00:00] I wanna get a few things off my chest regarding Justice Amy Coney Barrett. When she was nominated we had a conversation. There was lots of conversation about at least it's nice to have a young mother on the court this diversity of experience at the end of the day is important. So much for that. 


[00:00:28] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:30] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:32] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 


Beth [00:00:48] Hello. We are so glad that you've joined us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics today. Before we get started, it's really impossible to say how thrilled we are that Apple podcasts included us in its Best of 2021 list. We're in such good company on this list, and we are the only show in the news category, which means a lot to us. And I hope it means a lot to you because everything that we do here happens because of our community, because of the way you email us after shows, because of the way you engage with us on social media. You all teach us something every time we're in a room with any of you. So we hope that you know that this recognition belongs to you as much as it belongs to the two of us and to our team. And we are so grateful to that team and to Apple podcasts and to all of you for this recognition and this kind of celebration of what we do here. 

Sarah [00:01:31] If you're new here because of the list. Welcome to what we think is the best community on the internet. We try to take a different approach to the news each week. We started this podcast because we wanted to have the conversations about politics that we weren't hearing everywhere else. Conversations that acknowledge complexity and nuance. Conversations that hopefully help us understand each other and ourselves a little bit better. And that's what we hope you'll join us for every Tuesday and Friday as we do that here on this podcast. 

Beth [00:01:58] Today, we're going to start off by talking about the Supreme Court's consideration of a Mississippi abortion law. Then we're going to take a very hard turn and share the beginning of a super fun conversation we had with Chelsea Devantez of the Fabulous Celebrity Book Club podcast about Huma Abedin's memoir Both/ And. And we'll close out the show talking about recommendations for teacher gifts crowdsourced from all of the teachers in our audience via Instagram. 

[00:02:33] On Wednesday, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health Organization, which is probably going to be one of the most high-profile arguments of this Supreme Court term. And Sarah, you said this morning that we could talk about it in terms of Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health Organization, but this oral argument was really about Roe versus Wade and Planned Parenthood versus Casey. If you struggle with the shorthand of referring to those cases, we have an episode that we hope will be helpful to you. It's five things you need to know about abortion law, and we will link that in the notes today. It might be a good time for a refresher on some of that legal shorthand. 

Sarah [00:03:14] But for the specifics of this case, what was actually before the court Dobbs is Thomas E. Dobbs, the state health officer of the Mississippi Department of Health and Jackson Women's Health Organization is the only state licensed abortion clinic in the state of Mississippi. Mississippi passed a gestational age act that's the name of the bill in 2018 that prohibits a person from performing abortions after 15 weeks of gestation, except a medical emergency or in the case of a severe fetal abnormality. And those exceptions are highly policed within the language of the law. A physician is required to file with the state a report specifying the date the abortion was performed. The specific method of abortion used the probable gestational age and the method used to calculate the gestational age. A statement declaring that the abortion was necessary to preserve the life or physical health of the mother, specific medical conditions supporting the abortion and probable health consequences of the abortion and specific method used. If a doctor is found to have violated any of those requirements, the consequences are professional and civil: loss of license fines. But it is not a criminal statute like the one in Texas. So this law has been obviously struck down in lower courts as a clear violation of Roe v. Wade. And the fact the Supreme Court took this case at all should give us our first red flag that really, what's up for debate here is Roe v. Wade. 

Beth [00:04:32] I read the text of this bill this morning and we're going to link it here. It is graphic to read this bill. It has graphic descriptions of what abortion procedures entail. It is extremely activist in its language. There is no pretending that this is a bill about protecting women or protecting medical standards of care. This is a bill written by and for people who think that abortion is wrong. And every subsection of this bill makes that pretty clear. 

[00:05:09] So Mississippi takes this case to the Supreme Court. Very flagrantly throughout the process, saying it's time to do this because we have new Supreme Court justices and they present really three questions to the court. I don't want to read those questions as they're stated in the petition, because it's kind of difficult to follow. But the gist is right now, abortion law is complicated, and a viability standard was established through Supreme Court precedent. And one possible way that the court could take their resolution of this case is revisiting that viability standard. So not completely overturning Roe versus Wade, but getting into the cases that followed it, where the court tried to come up with some way of saying that there is some right to an abortion under the U.S. Constitution, but that that right is not unlimited. And we, the court, are going to figure out what the scope of that right looks like. And viability is is basically how the court has done it. But there are other sort of benefit and burden balancing test. 

[00:06:21] So Mississippi, in their briefing, seemed open to that more surgical path to chip away at the right to an abortion by changing that viability standard. But then when they had a chance to do oral arguments, they just went right in that Roe versus Wade has poisoned our politics and our democracy and needs to be overturned. 

Sarah [00:06:43] And I think so many Supreme Court commentators anticipated more support from the bench of a more surgical approach. You know, everybody was quoting Amy Coney Barrett at a speech she made recently like, we don't want people to think the Supreme Court is partisan hacks. I think they were looking for some hesitancy from her, a more Roberts-like approach from maybe Kavanaugh. But really, it was only Justice Roberts up there thinking through this 15-week viability change. Let's just make it 15 weeks instead of our current, very confusing viability standard. Because, you know, not to state the obvious viability is always changing medical technology advances, and the number gets lower and lower and lower. And so he but he was up there alone making that case, and I think it shocked everybody and like, Oh, whoa, we're way closer to overturning Roe v. Wade than we thought we were. 

Beth [00:07:38] I have a hard time knowing what to say about this because on the one hand, I am always saying to our Nightly Nuance audience on Patreon and Apple podcast subscriptions that oral arguments are just oral arguments and a lot of really important discussions follow those oral arguments. Oral arguments are sort of an opening for the justices, but then there will be vigorous, I am sure, debate among the justices exchange of drafts, legal research added to the mix of considerations that have been presented by all the briefs in this case. And we don't know until we know. At the same time, I think there is something important about the fact that the justices knowing how polarizing this case is and knowing that because of changes necessitated by COVID-19, oral arguments are now much more public than they've ever been. I think we saw justices intentionally socializing what could happen if they make a major change here. And so as much as I want to say, we don't know anything yet, let's not let's not do this, I think that these were very smart people who were telegraphing where they were going for a reason. 

Sarah [00:08:57] Yeah. And before we get into sort of where the decision is headed, I wanna get a few things off my chest. One regarding Justice Amy Coney Barrett. When she was nominated, we had a conversation. There's lots of conversation about at least it's nice to have a young mother on the court this diversity of experience At the end of the day is important. So much for that. Her questioning and her positioning that how is abortion such a burden when you can just give the baby up for adoption or leave it in a safe haven makes me so angry. It's hard for me to articulate it that a mother of seven who has carried pregnancies, given birth, would act like, what's the big deal? Just give them up for adoption. Makes me want to scream, and not because I haven't had those conversations with women in my life, I have, but they are always privileged women with a very singular life experience with a lot of support. Obviously, she has seven kids and she sits on the Supreme Court like, I just, oh, it's such ladder pushing. I cannot handle it. 

Beth [00:10:23] Well, she's also an adoptive parent. And we have several people pointing out in our audience today that there are some wonderful adoptive parents, and also adoption comes with a lot of trauma in the very best of circumstances. So to talk about it like it is a magic fix to a problem as complex as a pregnancy that for whatever reason, carrying that pregnancy to term is not available. It's it's a bad look for adoption. 

Sarah [00:10:56] It's heartless. That's how she sounded. She sounded heartless, dressed up as empathetic, which is the worst. It's the worst. So I just need to say that first and foremost, I had to exorcise that demon. That's probably not going to do it for me, my husband's probably going to hear lots of screaming about this moving forward as well. But. 

Beth [00:11:15] Well, can I just pop in for a second and say to recognize we got a lot of people listening in a lot of different places? I think heartless is difficult to bring into the room because for people who believe that there is a person at stake on both sides of the equation, you know, Heartless gets thrown back a lot at people who advocate for choice in this situation. So I just want to be careful about motivations in this conversation because it's frustrating. I agree with you. I listened to some of her remarks and thought about that feeling of waiting for a pregnancy test. In the best of circumstances, when I did not want to have when I did not want to be pregnant in the context of happy, loving, supportive relationship where we absolutely could have brought a child into the world when I did not want to and was waiting for a pregnancy test, just that feeling, I can live it again in a second. So I am also troubled by what she said. But I just want to be careful with heartlessness because I feel like we keep doing that to each other, and it keeps us in this terrible nightmare scenario that we're living through the Supreme Court, which is like the worst body to try to help us resolve it. 

Sarah [00:12:32] Let me expand on what I mean by that, and why stand by heartless. Because it's dressed up as concern for the mother. I don't care if you think it's like if you say it is heartless to commit abortion and that's where you are. Fine. Say it. Don't dress it up as you're really thinking about the mother and she has these options, can't you see? No, no, no, no, no. Just own it. Say, I think it's unacceptable in any circumstances to kill a fetus that is heartless to me. And so you should carry that burden if it means to adoption or to safe haven. And these are the cost and they're worth it. Fine, fine. I will have that honest, intellectual, emotional, even arguably empathetic conversation. But don't tell me that you're thinking about those things and looking a woman in the face and saying, just give it up for adoption. What's the big deal? After having seven kids after adopting the kid, she has to know what that means. I know she does, so just own it. Bring that diversity of experience to the court in an honest way, and that is not what she did. Sorry, it is hard to pivot from that anger, I apologize. 

Beth [00:13:40] Well, you don't need to apologize for being angry and I'm not trying to be attacking of you. I just want to be. 

Sarah [00:13:45] Oh no, I don't feel that. 

Beth [00:13:45] I just I'm trying to think through, you know, where we are because this is an emotional thing. It was weird. How I feel about this depends entirely on what question I'm asking. You know, it was weird legally that I felt like Brett Kavanaugh was more honest about the question than anybody else on the court. Because there was a moment, and listen how I feel about Justice Kavanaugh as a human being and as a judge, it's pretty well-established. 

Sarah [00:14:10] Mm hmm. 

Beth [00:14:11] It is not positive if you're new here. But there was a moment when Justice Kavanaugh said, Here's the problem, you don't accommodate both. If you believe there are rights on both sides of this equation, you have to pick one. And the precedent tries to not do that. And that's the problem with the precedent. And that's why the precedent is a mess and why this right is always so fragile. I was really frustrated this morning when I saw a tweet from Senator Duckworth saying, Now is the time to codify Roe. No, the time to codify Roe was 50 years ago, and every day since then. Sure, it's still the time to codify Roe fine. But like, we keep walking up to this ledge. Every case the court takes walks us up to this ledge because, as Justice Kavanaugh said, what courts really do is prioritize rights. And it has been sitting for 50 years trying not to do that around abortion. 

Sarah [00:15:07] Yeah. And look, there are moments where I was more sympathetic. Sympathetic is not the right word, but I thought the arguments coming from Mississippi were more intellectually honest of where we are right now. When Sonia Sotomayor said, well, this institution survived the stench that this creates in the public perception that the Constitution and its reading are just political acts, I don't see it as possible. I adore Justice Sotomayor. I think she's brilliant. The stench is already there. The stench is, Ah, it's too late. It's too late. It's already there. It's been there for the last 50 years as every Supreme Court nominee gets asked about Roe. Like, of course it's political. Of course it's been this way the whole time. Of course, it has damaged the institution, which is why the institution is in desperate need of reform. And the idea that like, oh, well, if they overturn Roe v. Wade, it will lead to two Americas. As far as reproductive rights, y'all, that's already true. You can't get an abortion where I live without lots of travel and access to resources like that is already true. And I don't want a Justice Roberts compromise where we go to 15 weeks and all the ways that we've chipped away at this fundamental right still stand. I don't want that. I'm done with this. I'm done with the like death by a thousand cuts. Fine. Let's overturn it. Let's overturn it and start over. And we really wouldn't be starting over. We're not going back to a ban on abortion. It'll be what it is right now where some states have lots of access and some states don't. Is Julie Rikelman right that that's not how fundamental rights are supposed to work? Yes. But that already is true. There are women across the United States who have not had a fundamental right to an abortion practically, and logistically, and realistically, for decades, for decades. 

Beth [00:16:58] And the truth is, we don't I'm being critical of the court for this precedent because it has tried to define a right, but only sort of which is what's happened here. But we do that with everything. 

Sarah [00:17:10] Well, listen, you're not alone. It's not like Ruth Bader Ginsburg herself didn't criticize this exact precedent for this exact reason. 

Beth [00:17:17] And it is also not like we have any rights that are we either have them or we don't. I mean, we would say that about a lot of things, but speech is a fundamental right that has limitations. Gun ownership is a fundamental right that has limitations. You know, every right has some weird set of circumstances around it, where courts have to do some, some judging, where judges have to judge and say this far, but no further. And so I think what's tragic about abortion is that that gets done through this process that moves at a glacial pace compared to the rights at stake. That is why the court is so ill-equipped to decide these cases because while everybody's thinking deep thoughts about what this means in judicial philosophy and precedent, a pregnancy keeps moving. Hmm. It is so unfair that this body has to make all of these decisions when it just doesn't, it's just not equipped to do it. 

Sarah [00:18:23] Well, and let me talk about another way that they were just basically ignoring reality. I believe the Council of Mississippi and Alito basically alluded to this. Alito himself said, Can it be said that the right to abortion is deeply rooted in the history and traditions of the American people? I know what you're implying, friend, and yes it can. Yes it can. Abortion was basically legal before the quickening for most of human history and most of American history, and you pretending otherwise doesn't change the fact that it was. Like. For what it's worth, also quickening happens way after 15 weeks and way after the first trimester. But like, there's tons of history on this, and he's just ignoring it. And that makes me mad too, because this idea of like, well, it's not explicitly in the Constitution or our history. That's not true. That is not true. 

Beth [00:19:11] I mean, Alito has told us in so many cases, in so many speeches, in so many ways that his view of what constitutes history is what were the prevailing norms among people like him at any point during human history? I mean, Alito has a very leave it to beaver sensibility about this country. 

Sarah [00:19:31] Yes. 

Beth [00:19:32] And is extremely candid about that on the court. And I think that's where I also struggle with The commentary around Amy Coney Barrett because she is not really different from him. And we expect so much more of her than him. And it's tough and she is not alone. There are lots of women that you could talk to about this issue and hear exactly what you heard from Amy Coney Barrett. And they count, you know what I mean? I disagree with them, but they count. And so I just I really struggle with, again, this is why it is so absurd that a decision like this rests on nine people in our country because we bring so much to looking at each one of them when each one of them does represent someone and there's no way nine people are going to be representative of the breadth of experience and the breadth of ethical, moral, even legal views of this country. The institution just needs to be rethought because it's not working. 

Sarah [00:20:33] Well, and look, Roe v. Wade has protected us from hard questions. I don't mean where life begins. I mean that when you look at the polling, Americans aren't really quite sure where the how they feel about this. You know, I understand that my views on abortion are more radical than the majority of Americans, I'm willing to accept that I don't think a lot of the pro-choice movement is, but I am. I'm willing to accept that. I think it's because I've spent a lot more time thinking about it. I think if a lot of Americans had worked at Planned Parenthood or been forced to defend their views on abortion the way I have, they would probably settle where I am, which is it's too complicated to try to lay out in some sort of legal or legislative standard. 

[00:21:13] Women are experts in their own lives. Will some women abuse this right? Yes, they will. Yes they will. And I understand that's abhorrent to a lot of people. But the other option is the state deciding what's the right medical choice for a woman? That's where I'm at. I'm not even sure most of the world is, I mean, most of the world, Europe included, Norway, Sweden. It's based on a weak structure, not viability. Most of them are in the first trimester, about 12 to 15 weeks, with exceptions for the life of the mother, depending on how broad or how strictly they enforce those exceptions. But I mean, most of the rest of the world is also liberalizing on abortion. We saw it in Ireland. We saw it in Mexico. 

[00:21:58] And now we're going to head in the other direction because no matter what happens afterwards immediately, the effect will be an even further contraction. We already live in two Americas, but it'll get worse once they overturn Roe v. Wade. States like ours will be released from, you know, legally battling about these laws they passed and putting them fully in effect. That's what's going to happen. And so we're going to be going the opposite direction of the rest of the world and we'll have to decide how we feel about this. 

[00:22:25] I mean, to me, so much of what this is is that reproductive rights are like immigration. They either like, don't affect your life at all or affect them for a short period of time. And that's what's so hard about this, this this fundamental right that affects every woman in a way, but like just for a short period, and it's easy to move on when it doesn't affect you, and it's easy to not worry about it when it doesn't affect you. And it's easy to think you know about it sort of on a surface level and fall. And I think that's why what you see in the polling, you see a lot of surface level thinking. Well, it sounds bad. Yeah, no, you shouldn't be you shouldn't be having abortion because it sounds bad after a first trimester. It sounds like we should be easy to figure out if the woman's health is at risk. It sounds like it, doesn't it? But that's not true. Ask any OBGYN if it's simple or easy to figure this stuff out, it's not. There's all kinds of complication and hard cases out there. You all want to get on a committee and start figuring it out fine. That's not what I want to do. 

Beth [00:23:27] In the Texas case where the court declined to stay Texas' law from going into effect immediately, Justice Sotomayor wrote a dissent where she talked about how the next level is not hypothetical, even as the court takes that case. There are so many women going into states around Texas to get abortion access that residents of those states are struggling to get abortion care. The providers in those states are overwhelmed with people from Texas, and so they can't they can't provide the kind of care and service to residents of Oklahoma, Nevada, et cetera, that they normally would. 

[00:24:07] And so it also sounds good to say, as Kavanaugh was suggesting during the argument that the court and the federal government ought to be neutral as to abortion and let the states work it out. But the reality is that the effect of a state choosing to have no access to abortion or even very limited access to abortion does not remain confined in that state. Other states are going to have to pick up for states like Texas, states like Mississippi, and so the citizens of those states are going to start to see problems. 

[00:24:42] I mean, I think if we and I have a hard time here because there are a lot of things that I do think are best decided locally, but something like this where you are going to see lots of movement in the country as a result. And I believe that. I think if we go to a post-Roe World where it is up to the states, we're going to see a lot of movement among people. And if we react to that movement among U.S. states, the way that we react to people moving around the globe because of changed political circumstances, I worry very much about what that's going to do to us culturally. 

Sarah [00:25:21] Because here's a thing. This is what you see around the world. Abortion rates are similar, whether the country is highly restrictive or highly liberal about their abortion laws. Because here's what you learned working at Planned Parenthood. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby, she's not going to have the baby. And so it just depends on the safety of what happens after that. And it's like. It's so frustrating that we fight that reality at every turn. At every turn, we fight that reality. And I am sympathetic to Sotomayor's argument that, like how you feel about that reality is a religious debate. Government, state, local or otherwise has to deal with the facts on the ground. And the idea that, you know, Mississippi will just deny reality and push it into another state's borders, that certainly seems like an issue for federal decision-making. 

Beth [00:26:20] I think want is such a hard word too because we've talked a lot about how there are lots of people who don't want an abortion, who need an abortion at some point. And even the the sense of, are you making a decision? I'm just trying to be honest with myself about the fact that there are so many decisions in life where what your brain does feels like a freight train coming down a hill. If you think to yourself, I cannot be pregnant right now. It feels like a freight train coming down a hill. I think again about like waiting for a pregnancy test result. It everything in you says, I can't do this. And I worry that we just don't have good words to describe what that decision to have an abortion actually is for the vast majority of people, and I think that's why what you said is so true that there is a point where if a woman is trying to seek abortion care, she will find a way to have an abortion because it's just not as much of a choice. We've adopted this language of choice, but I just don't think that that language is even very accurate about what what happens in your body as as things like this are happening to you. 

Sarah [00:27:35] One of the best things I read recently, particularly about this liberalization of laws around the world speaks to that point, which is in Ireland, they took a very specific approach when they passed a referendum making abortion legal. Which is sort of the approach of the LGBTQ movement, which is like we have to come out of the closet to share our stories, don't ask, don't tell. We can't do this anymore like people have to share. And I think there's been a lot more of that in my lifetime, particularly in the last 15 years of women openly and honestly sharing their experiences with abortion. I think it is likely the court will overturn Roe v. Wade, and I think as a result, we will need much more of that. We will need much more open, honest conversations, hard vulnerable conversations saying like This is what this looks like. This is what we're telling you. It's hard and complicated. I could have very easily been in that position had the baby I lost not had had a heartbeat. I think about that all the time. I think about that all the time. I had a D&E that is an abortion procedure. It's just my baby's heart had stopped, so I wasn't subjected to terrible hoops and waiting periods and shaming in one of the worst moments of my life. And we're just going to have to hear those stories and understand like, this is not easy. It belongs between a woman and her doctor because the complications of these situations and I don't just mean medical complications. I mean economic, psychological, age, geographic, domestic. I could go on for hours because it is as enormous and complex as the human experience. Because you know what? Women are people having human experiences, including surrounding pregnancy. And I would just like some acknowledgment of that. 

Beth [00:29:28] Well, I'm certain we're going to continue to talk about this. We are going to dramatically change directions now. And I'm so glad that we have this conversation to send you into the weekend as we have been having such an intense one. We were thrilled to spend time with Chelsea Devantez, who is a writer, comedian, filmmaker and host of Celebrity Book Club, a podcast that recaps and celebrates the memoirs of amazing celebrity women with humor and warmth and grace. We read Huma Abedin's memoir about her time working with Hillary Clinton as first lady and senator and presidential candidate and secretary of state. It is a very rich text and we had a very rich discussion. We're sharing the first 20 minutes or so here and hope you'll go over to Celebrity Book Club to listen to our full conversation with Chelsea that made us laugh hard and get a little teary too. 



Chelsea Devantez [00:30:30] You know what, both of our podcasts have in common, I realize as we treat people like humans. What a theme to connect on?! 

Sarah [00:30:38] It's a novel concept. 

Beth [00:30:38] It shouldn't be so rare and niche, but that's where we are the treat people like humans category. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:30:43] Mm-Hmm. Yes, treat them like humans and humans can be dramatic and crazy. Oh yeah, they're still complicated. Humans so complicated. Yes. OK, so let's dive in. First off, for anyone who feels like maybe they know the name Huma Abedin but don't fully know it, she was Hillary Clinton's right-hand woman in several positions, but she was Hillary Clinton's girl for everything for over 25 years. 

Sarah [00:31:04] Continues to be. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:31:05] Yeah, and is now. This friendship. And she was married to Anthony Weiner, the congressman who famously tweeted a picture of his weiner and then tweeted a picture of his weiner next to some other things. And just a lot happened. And so this book. 

Beth [00:31:21] A lot happened. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:31:22] Oh my god, I felt like it was an extra-long episode of Scandal. Do you guys ever watch Scandal? I was like, back in the saddle. 

Beth [00:31:31] You know, it seems so long, but like there was so much to say. I mean, she really did kind of breezed through a lot of parts that she probably could have written several books about on their own. 

Sarah [00:31:40] Absolutely. Because she starts with like deep into her family history, which I thought was so interesting. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:31:45] Ooh, OK, let's dive into that. So first, before we do. What made you guys so excited about Huma? Because we had a couple of options, but what made you interested in this book? 

Sarah [00:31:54] Well, public disclosure. First and foremost, I worked for Hillary Clinton's 2007 presidential campaign. Well, I worked very closely with Connolly, who she mentions at the end of the book. Rob Russo is a friend of mine. It's so weird to read these people's names in this book. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:32:09] Oh my gosh. 

Sarah [00:32:10] Yeah. And so I worked, you know, I didn't work closely with Huma, I only ended up doing like three or four advanced trips, and I was like, This is not for me. I do vividly remember one time seeing John Cusack in the lobby, who I believe she was like casually dating at the time. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:32:24] Wait, who was casually dating? 

Sarah [00:32:25] Huma. No, she didn't bring this up in the book, but believe me, it's a thing. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:32:29] OK, the changes a lot. Keep going. Wow. 

Sarah [00:32:30] Well, and she was lovely to work with. But, you know, because my interactions with her, it was like as this like, super important player with a celebrity meeting her in the lobby and like, who shows up in the pages of Vogue on occasion. Yeah, I definitely had a perception of her that was wiped clean with this memoir. Let me tell you. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:32:47] Really? What perception did you have before going into the memoir? 

Sarah [00:32:50] Well, I mean, I think I definitely just I did not understand that she was so devout. That makes so much more sense. Knowing what I know about Hillary Clinton, the fact that, like their partnership was so close. Yeah, I did not know that she was so devout. I did not know that like, right, she was like her first true, like, love her first real boyfriend, really, because I knew a little bit about her family history. It always seemed so. I don't know a word. I use a lot. It just seemed fancy. Yeah. Just seemed really fancy and worldly. And it's not that it wasn't. But I also think like reading it now and realizing like the work that she did was so, you know, her career was so impressive, but it really sheltered her in a really weird way. Yeah. And so I think I just and I, you know, already had enormous respect for her professionally. But now reading this, I think I just have a totally other window into her personally and my respect is definitely just grown. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:33:45] Oh, well, I love that. I love that. OK, so diving in 500 pages, I was not ready to revisit the 2016 campaign in such detail where Hillary lost. I was like, Oh, I 

Sarah [00:33:57] I went right through that process. I was like, I don't need this trauma again. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:33:59] I wasn't ready for this.

Sarah [00:33:59] Get through this part quickly. Yes. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:34:01] So the book begins, it's about her childhood. I will say the very first chapter title is the word Denial. Knowing Huma, I expected that to be about Anthony Weiner. And then it was about her dad, and I was like, what? Like, very weird. Like big, big letters, denial. And then it wasn't about her own life. Maybe it was like an artistic foreshadowing. But she was then born in Michigan, raised in Saudi Arabia. Her mother is Indian, her father's Pakistani, and she's very close to her family. And a big part of her life is her faith, like Sarah said. She is Muslim. And in these chapters, her father passes away from kidney failure, which is really, really sad. And I will say I, I think learning about her childhood was so important to this book and what's to come. But I did not enjoy it. Like most memoirs, the childhood section was the worst one for me, but it's really hard for a memoir to have a good childhood section, and this one was not an exception for me. Why did you? Why did you guys like it? 

Beth [00:35:00] I did not enjoy this part either. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:35:02] I I you, Beth, Beth, you're with me. 

Beth [00:35:04] It was interesting and helpful. There was a lot just in the framing of this book. I agree with you. I think the title's terrible. I think most of the chapter titles were terrible. I hate pulling in random quotes to start a chapter. I just think it seemed really amateur and weird for a book from a person of this much substance. And I really felt in those first three to five chapters just needed a good editor to come in and tighten it up and help us. We could have gotten that she values her family, that her faith is bedrock, that she was very traumatized by her father's death. We could have gotten all that with fewer words, and I think it would have helped. 

Sarah [00:35:42] Well, I felt like I needed it because, you know, I pinned this part where she talks about the first time she leaves a family event. Yes. But I just felt like that foundation was so important because for a book that really only poor thing, every interview she goes to about this book, people only want to know one thing. Why'd you stay with him? Yeah, why'd stay with him? Exactly. And so like to address something that in-depth, man, you got to understand somebody's childhood and family history and family values like you got to go there. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:36:13] Look, I agree. And I was like, Oh, all of this was needed. I just still didn't enjoy it. I was like, You need it, but I'm not having fun. Yeah. Which, you know? But yeah, you're right. And so then it jumps to, she's at this family wedding and she gets it. She's been a White House intern, and she gets this call, life-changing call being like, Will you walk away from this wedding and go on this trip with Hillary Clinton's team to help her plan this trip? And she walked as everyone's like having this big family wedding, She's packing her bag to fly out. And I love I love this for actually, I want to read a little page of the book. I want to read all the things she missed in life by choosing a life in politics, which you guys, I have to say, extremely similar to choosing a life in comedy. 

[00:37:02] She said, "I didn't know what the cost of taking that road would be, that it would mean 20 years of missed weddings, missed birthdays, missed funerals, 20 years of sleeping on planes and perpetual jet lag, 20 years of praying alone in strange hotel rooms and being the lone person fasting during Ramadan at official events surrounded by people eating and drinking. 20 years of downloading pictures of newborn nieces and nephews instead of visiting the hospital to hold them myself." 

[00:37:24] It's a career that's a crazy maker. Oh, it broke my heart. You give up life for this career, and so then you can't walk away from the career because you gave upholding your niece and nephew their whole life. Yeah. 

Sarah [00:37:36] Yes. Yeah. That part really broke my heart. And it sounds so bad, makes me sound like a terrible person. But I felt like, Oh, I'm glad I walked away from that. Like because I left Washington, D.C. to move back to my hometown. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:37:48] That doesn't sound terrible. It's a nice move. I mean, 

Sarah [00:37:51] I just I felt I could see it. I could see what it like, especially the advance work. That's that work that she, you know, I only did three or four trips, but the way she describes it, I marked another part where she really walks through because that's where she like, really kind of, you know, proved her mettle and like, earned her stripes was in advance work. And that stuff is so hard. It is so relentless. It's not like you're ushering legislation through right? where you can be like, Look what I did and the impact on the world. It's just like one trip after the other. And there I mean, it was some of the coolest stuff I've done in my life. Like, I loved getting to know the Secret Service, and I can definitely see how you would fall for it, right? You'd fall for that life and the adrenaline rush and the the just on and on. And especially if it's, and I can definitely see how you'd fall for it with Hillary Clinton because, you know, my entire experience with her makes every word that Huma writes about this book like even more impactful, because it really is. So much of this book is a love letter to her and a deserved one, because every moment I spent working for her and like interaction with her was fantastic. She really is an amazing human being. Wow. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:38:56] Yeah. Well, I really like that she walks through because when she's like, Oh, we're going on these trips, I was like, What? What do you do? What are you doing?

Sarah [00:39:02] Yeah, It's a lot. It's because it's she's right. You have to be like a media expert and a scheduling expert and a logistics expert. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:39:07] But it's also like, what café in Buenos Aires should Hillary drink a coffee in? And that would be over. I would be like, How do I find a cafe, let alone the perfect one? 

Beth [00:39:17] Well, it's so perspective limiting too, though. I think what you said about how it sheltered her is is really important because a lot of those descriptions in the book for me made me go, Oh, I get how this team of people missed what was going on with the emails. I get how they like. You can just understand why the rails come off so many things from public perception because they are so inside this world that they can't imagine it being interpreted through a different lens. 

Sarah [00:39:46] That is so much momentum. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:39:47] Such a great point. And we should say the world she's stuck in has a name. They had a name for themselves, and this was starting when Hillary was the first lady. So basically, this was all the things she was doing as the first lady, not in official political position. Aside of that, it was called Hillary Land Hillary Land, and they called themselves Hillary Land. And you guys, oof, like branding was bad really from the 90s. Like, I can't believe this is the name they chose for themselves. It sounds like a doll factory or like a weird, like your aunt's skincare line or a TV company, which is Shonda Land. But it's like,. 

Sarah [00:40:24] Oh yeah, can I read this moment about Hillary land? Because it's just so many ways I've tried to express this. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:40:31] Oh my God, Sarah was in Hillary land. 

Sarah [00:40:33] I was in Hillary land for sure. "These were the women I worked with, those who climbed up the ladder, but instead of stepping on the fingers of the women on the rungs below, reached their hands to pull up the lowest of us. Hillary land is all about What do you need? And let's get this fixed. Hillary Land is how is your mom feeling? And you should talk to my allergist. Hillary Land is happy birthday. An amazing job and get some rest. Hillary Land is all of those things because Hillary Clinton is all of those things. I love that part so much.

Chelsea Devantez [00:41:00] But Sarah, I read that and I was like, Isn't that the basics? Like, you know, isn't that like the... 

Sarah [00:41:07] Not in politics in the 90s and early aughts, it's not. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:41:09] But I think that's always what I had to remember where I was like, Oh, politics, early 90s from the woman, from the first lady. This was really special. But when you read it, you're like, Yeah, happy birthday in the office. That seems like. 

Beth [00:41:21] But that is the maddening thing, because there is like a real, self-congratulatory note about a lot of the basics running throughout this book. And that tone I always got from the campaign, but they really didn't show this side, I feel like. Like this wasn't really on display, and it has to be so frustrating for them the way this was all perceived when inside the campaign, they feel like I work for the greatest person ever. How did how does the world not understand it? And if the world understood it, they would think she's a grandma or something like, I get the conflict here. But this book did not resolve any frustration for me around the campaign. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:42:00] Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I am a full, I guess whatever on the scale feminist you can be. I'm that time's a million. And I found myself annoyed with some of the feminism in this book, and I was like, I can't be annoyed. I'm not a good like if I'm annoyed, like, this is not good. And it's like because the way you portray certain things is really important and the way you message things and like they feel a little stuck like, right, in this chapter, I was like, Oh, this is stuff that's like a little, I don't know, like dusty, she said. When she meets Hillary for the first time, she says, it struck me that she was more petite, more delicate in person than the larger than life figure I'd seen in pictures or on television. She was prettier too. This, I now know is the single most common thing people say when they meet her in person. And I was like, Oh, we're still in that like nineties feminism where you're like, Don't worry, she really is pretty and small, whereas like our current world is like, we don't care about stuff like that, but it was like, Don't worry, she's tiny. She's she is tiny. 

Sarah [00:42:58] That was interesting because that came earlier in the book when she met her. But whereas by the end, I love the way in the 2016 cycle and the 2020 cycle, how she wrote about all the advice, how she's like the just 11 messages a day, all conflicting. Be louder, be softer. Look like you're having fun, but don't try to have fun like I thought that part. It's like interesting. It's almost like she progresses with her understanding of how Hillary is treated in the press and by constituents like as she progressed in her career. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:43:26] That is such a good point. I almost like, want to go and read that should we go and read that page now? I feel like we're jumping all over, but I love that for I feel like we should read that part. OK, we should set this up. A filmmaker comes to them and he's like, Hey, I'm a big, famous filmmaker. Hillary has been called unlikable, you know her whole life. I will train her on camera to be more likable. And then he's basically like the I give up and they're like, Well, who do you think she should be like? He just names a bunch of men and they're sort of like, Yeah, but this is like a woman, her husband. Yeah. 

Sarah [00:43:55] Oh, here it is. I found it. I wrote, Yikes. Great. OK. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:43:58] Oh my gosh. Will you read it? 

Sarah [00:43:59] OK, so, she says. "But the question of likability could not be ignored. Her communications director, Jen, her deputy and I met from time to time to discuss how to help Hillary increase her likability quotient. We noted that whenever she appeared on lighthearted talk shows like The View or The Tonight Show, our phones would blow up with encouraging messages from friends. So one day we showed HRC interview clips and Jen offered suggestions for rephrasing certain answers or expressing her emotions differently. HRC should find the right balance between warmth and toughness. She had to exude competence, but not display anger and frustration. She had to stop nodding her head when listening to people. She needed to keep her voice steady and a little deeper. On and on it went." 

Beth [00:44:35] It was also a reminder to me because that sounds kind of dated, right? That sounds like a thing that we've all learned we don't do anymore. But this book in so many ways, in so many different parts of the story reminded me that people in positions of power like this are typically stuck, that they are really living kind of in the 90s, like based on my frame of reference and that they're hearing both from other people in positions of power who tend to be older and from members of the public who express like those views that that, of course, it kind of keeps them arrested in a certain time frame instead of living like a different version of feminism. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:45:15] And and weirdly, it kind of goes with the problem with polling in modern times, which is that to poll someone like you got to have a landline, right? And so you're really hearing from a certain group of people. And then to take your polling results like affect Your campaign is like, that's not really a reflection of, you know, who are the people showing up to like, let you know what's wrong with you. That doesn't represent everyone. I think that's actually. 

Sarah [00:45:39] Well, I've never as long as I live, I don't remember why I was at this meeting. But during the 2007 presidential campaign, we were in this meeting. We were talking about Hillary, like it was like a meeting to help her. And I said I was so, I mean, I was in my early 20s and I said, you know, I identify with her the most when she talks about her hair, like when she talks about her hair through the 90s, how she can get it right, like all her different hairstyles.  

Chelsea Devantez [00:46:01] Oh my gosh. 

Sarah [00:46:01] And Eleanor Smeal, like hardcore Old-School 60s 70s feminist icon almost like, came out of her skin at me. Like, That's so ridiculous. A man would never do that. She should not have to talk about her appearance like that will make her seem silly and unserious and unimportant. And I was like, Oh, this is like a real. I've just stepped right into a generational conflict here because, you know, I don't think she was all the way right or I was all the way right. I think it's a tough one. I think it's tough what women have to do to see, quote-unquote relatable, especially in 2007. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:46:36] But I think that kind of points to a pinch point in this book and in the campaign for me, which is the campaign was I'm with her and they really noted she was a woman. They're constantly booking out buildings with glass ceilings to have their events and for the symbolism like it really was geared towards that. So if you are going to gear towards that, then you have to own that you are a woman and you're here to talk to women. And then they would be like, No, but that's silly and dumb. And you're like, Then why? Then why? Why is everything pink? 

Sarah [00:47:07] Well that was 2007, though. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:47:08] Oh, right, right? That wasn't until 2016. 

Sarah [00:47:10] After she learned the hard lesson with Obama. I think a feeling like that. So it's so crazy, too, that they did it twice and they had to learn all these. Yeah, and that's what I just think Huma's so good at articulating in this book is like just the conflicting that you'd have like one young woman saying, this is what matters to me and one woman, Hillary's generation saying, How could you? And one person, like, we're all in our heads thinking we solve this problem, but they're on the ground having to bring all this information together in some sort of cohesive format. 

Beth [00:47:36] But it all ended up being this weird stew of wonky policy, historic feminism, the sort of love trumps hate that Huma talks about a little bit in the book, which I look back and just cringe like, wow, like from a twenty twenty-one perspective, what a choice to do the love trumps hate thing, you know, it's just it just all felt really weird. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:47:58] And also, it's, you know, a lot of campaign slogans, TV show titles. They hurt in hindsight. But when it's like love trumps hate and you're like, No, it doesn't. Hate always wins and it's tough. It's tough. So yes, there she's going through the 2007 primaries that she loses to Obama. Later, she's going to the 2016 election. But at the start of the book, she is still the first lady and Huma is there when the Monica Lewinsky stuff news happens. 

Sarah [00:48:28] We swept through that part real fast. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:48:30] Oh yeah, yeah. 

Sarah [00:48:31] It was like nothing to see here. Nothing to see, we can move past this part. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:48:35] Monica happens, What's crazy about this is that she's going to watch Hillary be shamed by her cheating husband or be ashamed by and everything to do with that. And Hillary sticks with him. And here's what she says about why Hillary stayed, which for being such a short chapter, this page spoke loudly. 

[00:48:55] "It was an impossible situation. Defending the institution of the presidency meant forgiving the actions of a man who, in different circumstances, she might have otherwise not chosen to forgive. The power to forgive was her burden alone. If she stood by him, then the nation would stand by him. If she didn't stand by him, then the nation might abandon him too, precipitating a constitutional crisis and sending the country into dangerous and uncharted political waters. So she didn't just stay. She stayed and fought. 

Sarah [00:49:19] Oh, I mean, I believe it, who knows Hillary better than Huma? Like that she has seen it from that perspective, whether it's right or not. I believe that that's maybe what she was thinking. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:49:29] Beth, you don't look like you believe it. 

Beth [00:49:31] I felt that this is where she became a bit of an unreliable narrator. For the most part, I really trusted Huma throughout this book. I liked her. I thought she was a person who was really owning a lot of her own complexity. But there were moments like this where I thought, this sounds like a person who spent her entire career in Hillary land and is looking through 2021 eyes at the 90s and trying to tie a neat little bow on this to get past it because she can't write a book without including it. But she doesn't want to really talk about what was going on, and I believed her in the moments when she said, basically, I was a busy intern in the first lady's office that was all happening in a different universe than I was working in every day. Yeah, that felt totally authentic to me. When we get to, she made the patriotic decision to stay, which I'm not saying that wasn't part of the calculus. I just thought it sounded like a new voice entered the chat to give us that little, that little summary of how Hillary thought about this period. 

Chelsea Devantez [00:50:31] Yeah, but you know what is also interesting to me is that Huma chooses to stay by Anthony for far too long. So I feel like she's also talking about herself, like, we're talking about Hillary, but she's also being like, and it's a patriotic thing to say and listen, because it's a podcast and we can just say our opinions. My opinion on why Hillary stayed is that like it was like a sunk cost. She put everything into this guy, you know, and at this point, she's like, Well, goddammit, there's no turning back now. You know what I mean? Like what I'm going to do? Start again. No, like, I guess I'll just keep going. 

Beth [00:51:04] There is so much more to this conversation we loved every minute of it. Chelsea is so smart and funny and thoughtful, so pop over to Celebrity Book Club to hear the rest. Thank you, Chelsea. We can't wait to do this again. 




[00:51:24] Sarah, we have talked a lot about schools this year because people who work in schools have seen things lately. So we wanted to do our part to talk about thoughtful holiday recognition for the teachers and school workers in our lives. And we asked folks on Instagram and your prediction came true about what the loud and clear result of this polling was going to be. 

Sarah [00:51:44] Yeah, I asked my friend Kate, one of my best friends who's taught kindergarten, now teaches fifth grade. She's like gift cards was the answer gift cards. Now there was a small amount of debate. Universally, the answer was Target or Amazon gift cards. Period. Full stop. There was a little bit of controversy about Starbucks. Starbucks got listed a lot. But then some people were like not all teachers like coffee. So I'm just gonna throw it out there. You could just ask you, just straight up, ask. There was also requests for teachers pay teacher gift cards, which is it's a cool website in case you've never been in there. I participated in teachers pay teachers during the homeschooling portion of COVID lockdown because teachers can buy worksheets that other teachers create. I mean, some teachers, I think, make their full whole living at teachers pay teachers and don't even teach anymore. There are also some requests for massage gift certificates, dinners out, grocery gift cards. But yeah. I mean, you could also skip all this and just give them some cash for what it's worth. 

Beth [00:52:38] Well, a few people mentioned alcohol and I kind of feel about Starbucks and alcohol similarly, like you need to know the person if you're going to make that kind of entree into their lives. Uh-Huh. My takeaway from this was broader is better because we also heard from teachers who said, Really, I just want things for my classroom. I need some fresh school supplies by this point in the year. I need some headphones. I need some hand sanitizer. And I get that and also kind of feels like giving your wife a vacuum cleaner to me. You know what I mean? Like, or giving your husband some kind of tool for around the house. Like, I don't love that. So cash and very broad gift cards where people could buy anything they want, including things for their classrooms, if that's the direction they choose to go, felt better to me after reading our sample size here. 

Sarah [00:53:27] And of course, we heard a lot of like support for things that make our jobs better. Good school board candidates and legislators for your mandates, better pay, smaller classes, just to overall address the teacher shortage. We're not going to address the teacher shortage without better pay, y'all just in case. Spoiler alert nothing else is going to get us there. And you know, I think just prioritizing teachers instead of doing what we often to do in American culture, which is individualize it, give a lot of language to heroes without building systems and structures that actually support the institution and the people within it. 

Beth [00:54:06] But to be clear, everyone appreciates the hero language as well. We heard a lot of I just want nice notes. I want a nice note from the child that's specific about something that's gone well this year. I want to write a nice note from parents. I want them to copy my principal or my other administrators when they write that nice note to me. So kind words mean a lot. And also, we heard those systems changes are really important to us. And people popped in to say, Please don't forget about all the other folks that affect your child's education or affect the school community, the counselors, the cafeteria workers, the assistants and nurses and custodians. There are a lot of people who whose work at schools do not get the kind of praise that teacher work tends to. So hopefully we can be very generous this holiday season with everyone who is part of a school. 

Sarah [00:54:53] That suggestion had me thinking about the moment in a child's educational career when they start having more than one teacher. Mm-Hmm. And I was wondering how you've handled that or how you plan to handle that next year in middle school? 

Beth [00:55:09] We had that in preschool, actually, because Ellen's preschool, they rotated classrooms all day for each subject. So she had about seven preschool teachers. And we just did a small gift for all of them. We fortunately, were able to do that, but we tend to do kind of think, what was our total budget for teacher appreciation? OK, we'll split that seven ways. I also try to follow with my older daughter, she has several teachers now, and I try to follow her lead on kind of who does she spend the most time with? Who does she want to get the nicest gift for? But let's still do something and acknowledge everybody around her. What? What are you doing? 

Sarah [00:55:46] Yeah, I do it for all the teachers, because I mean, how are you supposed to pick? Right? And I feel like essentially a middle school like this type of support for teachers falls off when really it should be the opposite. Parent involvement should increase in middle school and high school. And so I'm just trying to continue to prioritize it that way. 

Beth [00:56:05] Well, thank you to everyone who chimed in with their recommendation here. We hope that you all will go forth and get your gift cards and your nice notes, maybe some cash and appreciate all of the educators and professionals in education in your lives. And we are so grateful that you joined us today. Thank you again to Chelsea Devantez and the Celebrity Book Club team, to Apple Podcasts for including us in the Best of 2021 list.  We'll be back with you Tuesday and look forward to hearing from you between now and then. Have the best weekend available to you. 

[00:56:41] Pantsuit Politics is produced by studio podcast production, Elise Knapp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:56:47] Megan Hart and Maggie Penton are our community engagement managers. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:56:53] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:56:57] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, Danny Ozment, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy Whited.

Beth [00:57:36] Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller.

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