Our Best of 2021
Topics Discussed
Beth’s Favorite A Block: Corporations and Political Speech
Sarah’s Favorite B Block: Masks, Abortion and Bodily Autonomy
Maggie and Alise’s Favorite Conversation Outside of Politics: Olivia Rodrigo’s Album Sour
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Episode Resources
Originally Aired: Corporations and Political Speech (May 4 “Emotional Leadership” Pantsuit Politics)
Originally Aired in: Masks, Abortion and Bodily Autonomy (September 8 “Your Body, Whose Choice” Pantsuit Politics)
Originally Aired in: Outside Politics: Olivia Rodrigo’s Sour (June 4 “We’re Not All One Thing” Pantsuit Politics)
Transcript
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:25] Hello, and thank you so much for joining us for this very special episode of Pantsuit Politics. We hope that you're enjoying the holiday season and we're really grateful that you've spent some of that precious time with us. It has been such a full year and we are trying to think very intentionally about all our conversations and what we've learned this year. So on Tuesday's episode, if you listened, we critiqued some of those conversations. Today, we thought we'd share some of our favorite segments from the past year, conversations we're still thinking about months later that prompted really enriching discussions with listeners.
Sarah [00:00:56] If you've been listening for a long time, you know that we typically divide our episodes into three segments, one about current news stories, one main segment about a topic we want to explore more fully, and one discussing what we're thinking about outside of politics. So, today, you'll hear Beth's favorite first segment about discussing politics at work and my favorite main segment, Your Body Whose Choice, where we brought in a lot of listener feedback on Texas abortion law and what that meant for our arguments about vaccine mandates and masking.
Beth [00:01:22] And then Outside of Politics, Alise our managing director and Maggie our community engagement manager, chose their favorite segment, which was the conversation where we just lavished praise on Olivia Rodriguez album Sour. First up, I picked our conversation, Sarah, about BaseCamp deciding to ban political discussion at work. I think that for a bunch of reasons I thought it held up pretty well when I listened back. It didn't feel like it came from a different universe because of political developments over the year. I also think we continue to have this struggle around where, when and with whom we can talk about things that really matter. This is something that you and I have spent a lot of time talking about lately how important it is to be in spaces with people that you trust enough to go there. And so we have this discussion about BaseCamp deciding people can't go there with their colleagues, and I'm excited to revisit it here.
Sarah [00:02:28] So this conversation surrounding particularly big tech companies in Silicon Valley and their banning of political speech on their company profiles really took over the internet site guys last week when founder and CEO of Basecamp, Jason Fried, put out a public statement entitled Changes at BaseCamp about this new policy. I chuckled under my breath there a little bit because the language in this letter is something. Even before we get to the policy, Beth, can I read a little section?
Beth [00:02:59] I would love for you to.
Sarah [00:03:00] So first he quotes Aldous Huxley, but only refers to him as Huxley, which I like. He puts this really intense quote in there and he goes, This is the next quote. "Heavy? Yes. But insightful, absolutely irrelevant reminder. We make individual choices. We all want different somethings, some slightly different, some substantially. Companies, however, must settle the collective difference, pick a point and navigate towards somewhere lest they get stuck circling nowhere." What do you think, Beth? First of all, can you interpret that for me because I have no idea what it means?
Beth [00:03:32] I think that you can best understand what he means by reading on in his statement, where he says that people's sensitivities are at an 11.
Sarah [00:03:40] Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.
Beth [00:03:41] And I think that honestly, this whole letter can fairly be read as someone who's just tired of hearing it and wants people to get back to work. A sentiment that I am sure is broadly shared across the country and also seems to me to be completely missing the point of what employees are often talking about when they're talking politics at work.
Sarah [00:04:04] Right. Because I think if you just read this statement from BaseCamp, following a policy change also at Coinbase, which is a big cryptocurrency app that was saying they're also going to prohibit political speech, you could be sympathetic. I particularly like the line. You shouldn't have to wonder if staying out of it means you're complicit or wading into it means you're a target. I think that's a good description of like Twitter every day. The problem is, you know, if you do not have context of what the employees are really complaining about at BaseCamp, then you're really missing a big part of the picture. And the bigger problem is, in theory, the leadership at BaseCamp should not be missing that context. They should have a very good idea of what the employees at BaseCamp are really upset about.
[00:04:53] And it's not that people are getting on the company platform and talking nonstop about Donald Trump. It's that they are frustrated with the diversity and equity efforts of BaseCamp itself, and some have BaseCamps policy towards what they articulate as their values. And that, to me, is like that's what politics is really about. We say this all the time. It's about the rules in which we live in the community together. And so there are, of course, office politics. And in 2021, a lot of office politics is driven by people's personal political values, but they don't see them as separate. And I think to try to like compartmentalize them and say, well, you can't do that here anymore, especially in Silicon Valley which in the past has articulated a very values driven, purpose driven approach is why this did not go over so well, and they had a third of their workforce leave in response to the statement.
Beth [00:05:50] I don't know what you would consider a political here in 2021. If I am in a law firm, which is my background, of course, asking about the future of work and saying, "How are we going to deal with the fact that artificial intelligence can do a lot of what we have done traditionally? And what just transition should we make as we see that future coming for us?" Is that political? It seems quite political to me because it encompasses income inequality. It encompasses whose work is valuable and valued in a new economy. It encompasses the role of technology in a country like ours and what we want our economy to even mean as technology grows. All of that seems inherently political to me and also seems completely irresponsible not to be discussing that often and with a diverse group of people. And I worry that if you have a blanket policy like this out there, what you're actually saying is the only people who can decide what political issues matter to our mission are the people at the very top of the organization. And that is unhealthy both for the organization itself, I think in the long term and all of its constituents, but also for all of us trying to live together in a democratic society.
Sarah [00:07:14] They had to put out another statement further clarifying, and then they started talking about societal politics, which is an additional word but to me offers no more --
Beth [00:07:25] It is a [crosstalk].
Sarah [00:07:26] It's an additional word, congrats, but it doesn't offer any additional perspective. Like give me a break, societal politics as opposed to what, friends? And this is when they said, well, this includes everything from sharing political stories in campfire using message threads to elucidate others on political beliefs that go beyond the topic directly or performing political advocacy in general. And I just want to say, like, is it going to improve the company's productivity by policing all of this constantly? That's the other thing. To me, not only do I think it's a fool's errand and a way to avoid the actual political environment of your company and the ways in which that has become a problem. But it's also not going to improve the productivity or your output of what you're actually doing. Like, you know, the controversy that they created with this statement, I would imagine was a huge suck on everybody's energy, time, focus and productivity last week and will continue to be probably for the next couple of weeks, at least.
Beth [00:08:26] You know, I think a lot about how we all carry around these backpacks of the stuff that we care the most about. So if you go back to that statement, sensitivities are at an 11, I get that. I understand that they are. But that is just always true of human beings who work together in an environment. And so if my backpack is full of my sensitivities at an 11 about police violence, what I really need is to have a constructive way to set that backpack down at work. And that doesn't mean that it goes away. It means that someone has allowed me to say, here's what I'm carrying today.
Sarah [00:09:05] Yeah.
Beth [00:09:05] That's true. Whether it's police violence or the election or a natural disaster or someone's divorce, or someone's fight with their kid that morning, where they raised their voice and are feeling really stressed about how they handled it, people bring all that stuff to work. Of course, they do. And they just need to be able to constructively have it seen and acknowledged. And then I think most people can move along. But I think that the reason we don't ever want to handle that in the workplace is because nobody knows how to get out of it once that conversation has started. And I think people fear that they're going to be trapped in somebody's therapy session all day. Or with politics, they're going to be trapped in the middle of basically a cable news panel for the rest of the day instead of getting things done. And in my experience, if you have some skill about how to communicate with other people, you can get out of those conversations. You know, you can kind of say, "Let somebody say what's on their mind." And then, "What do you think we could do about this to support you right now?" And most of the time, people are just going to say, "You know, I really just needed to say it out loud." And then they're able to focus and do what they're there to do.
[00:10:17] Or they might have an ask, and if you can meet that ask all the better for your workplace and its culture. And if they have an ask that you can't meet, you can just say it, "I wish that we could do that for you. I want to be thinking about what you shared with me and what we might be able to do, and I'm glad you told me this. Thank you so much." I don't think it is magical to say to people, "We've done this and now it's time to move on." And I feel like that's probably the issue with these channels where people are typing in BaseCamp and it's just typing, typing, typing, and nobody is ever coming in to say, "Hey, how does this relate to what we're doing here?" Or "What do you think the company needs to do to address this?" Or, "You know, the company really can't address this for the following reasons, but what a good, robust discussion this has been. And thank you all so much for participating. We're going to close this channel out now, but I'm sure these conversations will surface again in the future."
Sarah [00:11:12] Well, first of all, I don't think Jason has those skills. I mean, not to, like, make Silicon Valley CEOs a punching bag, but they are such an easy punching bag and they mess this up so badly. So I think what the employees of BaseCamp are expressing is like, we can't trust you. You don't have those skills and you're not doing this. And so their voices we're getting louder. And that's why they decided to shut the voices down instead of leading people or addressing the actual concerns. Listen, let's just be honest, a lot of this, I'm sure from what I've read from the reporting of, obviously, anonymous employees is that a lot of this came down to issues of race and gender and identity and feeling like those were addressed.
[00:11:54] Look, I'm not sure there's a corporation right now. Or maybe if they are, they're doing such a good job that's why we're not hearing about it. But, I mean, look, the way we talk about these things, the importance of these things are ever shifting. The conversations are more intense because they do surround issues of identity and systemic oppression. And I think companies are trying to navigate this new reality, especially with some corporations playing an even more active role in the political arena. And I'm not saying like that's not a difficult challenge and one that not everybody has figured out, I'm just saying this is the absolute worst approach. The idea that, well, we won't deal with it, we'll just avoid it. We'll just shut it down, especially when we're talking about such deep and complicated issues as identity is just it is a choice. That's all I got to say.
Beth [00:12:50] I do agree that it's got to be difficult right now because everything is really fraught and there are some really big asks out there, and it's hard to overcome the inertia of an organization that's been around for any amount of time. Especially as it reaches a certain size, it becomes harder and harder to make big changes. Then so your company goal shouldn't be like, let's shut all this down. It should be let's help people see where we are in the process. Let's help people see that it is a process. Let's help people see that we're never going to actually solve this, which is different than a lot of what you try to do at work, right? There are a lot of things that work that you actually say, like, how can we tackle this now and be done with it? We need a new software for this.
Sarah [00:13:29] Right, in Silicon Valley.
Beth [00:13:30] Let project manager get it done. Yeah. Well, this whole story reminded me a lot of what's going on in the leadership of the Republican caucus.
Sarah [00:13:39] I'm intrigued because Silicon Valley to the Republican caucus is as a big leap.
Beth [00:13:44] It's a journey.
Sarah [00:13:44] Mm-hmm.
Beth [00:13:45] I think it's not a big leap though here, because what Basecamp is saying is, I know you have all these feelings. We've decided we're going to just keep going in this direction that we're going in our workplace and we don't have room for those feelings and we don't have room to talk about them. And we're going to decide that if you're talking about the feelings that absolutely are the undercurrent of everything that goes on here, you're distracting from our work. And distraction is the same word that Kevin McCarthy has been using to describe his colleague, Liz Cheney, in Republican leadership. But by continuing to answer the press's questions about her views on President Trump's leadership in the Republican Party, she is distracting from the work that the caucus actually needs to be doing. And I think that's fascinating because if you actually follow Liz Cheney much at all, she mostly talks about policy. But when she's asked a question directly, she answers it directly.
Sarah [00:14:46] That's the part that really set me over the edge. Was when they were like, well, she's not focusing on policy. Get out of here. You guys get out of here. You didn't even put out a party platform. You got Madison Cawthorn out there with that memo that I'm never ever going to stop talking about how he staffs to media, not to legislation. And you're trying to ding Liz Cheney for not appropriately focusing on policy. Like, I'm not out here trying to defend Liz Cheney all the time, but that is absurd. Absurd.
Beth [00:15:13] And this is the thing, how President Trump behaves with respect to the Republican Party is the driving undercurrent of everything happening in that party right now and deciding that we're just not going to talk about that and keep waltzing forward. It is as futile to me as what BaseCamp is trying to do, because now you just got a bunch of people walking around with their backpacks that are getting heavier and heavier and heavier, and there's no place to set them down. And if you decide that the best thing is to send your employees with political feelings on their way and to send Liz Cheney packing from Republican leadership because she won't lie, as one of her colleagues said, she won't lie to the American people about what happened in the last election. I don't know what your future game plan looks like. You cannot fill a workplace or a conference with people who are going to be free of opinions about the most important issues facing them every day.
Sarah [00:16:12] Yeah, and it feels like they're very much backing her into a corner where unless she lies, unless she supports the big lie, which that backpack, like you said, to support the big lie -- I mean not to sing the song that I was taught as a child. Where you ever taught the song like "You tell one lie, it leads to another, then you tell two lies and try to recover." You know that song?
Beth [00:16:33] I don't know that song, but I want to learn it now because I have a five-year-old who could use some information about this.
Sarah [00:16:39] It's good. And that's where they're at with this, right? That's why they're auditing the vote in Arizona, right? Because the lie is not self-perpetuating, it has to be fed continuously. And be that at the cost of Liz Cheney or the cost of the conference or the cost of primaries where they will no doubt nominate people who are have a tougher time winning like that. The law has to be fed and that's what they're doing. And I don't know where it ends. I truly do not know where it ends until they are free of him. But that's definitely not the future Kevin McCarthy is mapping out for the Republican caucus. And so, to me, this gets way worse before it gets better, and I think it's very likely that she'll lose her leadership position.
Beth [00:17:27] I keep thinking about the clip of Mitt Romney being booed over the weekend in Utah, and how he listened to the booing for a while and then just looked at the microphone and said, "Aren't you embarrassed?" And I've I've watched it like four times, and I just keep thinking about that question, aren't you embarrassed? Charlie Sykes wrote a piece about that line this morning that I read. And it just, I mean, I feel that about the situation within the Republican Party and also in tech companies that are trying to say, like, "We're just going to fold everything up really neatly here and we're going to be out doing all of our good in the world. But internally, we really just need people to, like, do their coding or whatever. We don't want to hear their opinions about things." Like, are we embarrassed? If we're going to live together in a society where we can have free and fair elections that benefit these corporations, by the way, and we have greater economic opportunity and social opportunity, we have to talk about these things.
[00:18:29] And I can't believe that Kevin McCarthy is walking around talking about the big tent of the GOP when the message that has been received by many of the people who voted to impeach the president and the Republican Party, that their fundraising will be aided if they just keep their heads down. And when he is vocally refusing to even show up at a presser with Liz Cheney because they might disagree. if he had any skill, again, he would highlight this as a strength. It is an asset that we have this disagreement in our party. It is an asset that we have people who believe in the ideas of President Trump, and we have people who more reflect the Bush era and the Reagan years, and we have to negotiate all of that as the world continues to develop. How great for us. But, no, they are incapable of it because President Trump won't allow it. And so what you have is Kevin McCarthy really as the leader of like the followership, right? Liz Cheney is the only person acting like a leader here where you say, "I have a vision. I have a set of principles. I'm going to adhere to those no matter what the circumstances are." And everybody else, just like, "Well, you know, President Trump can get pretty testy about this. So we got to move on."
Sarah [00:19:40] I'm just can't fathom how anybody who considers themselves a political animal has watched his behavior since the election and thought, this is where I want to stake my political future. It's just it really is mind blowing to me. I understand the passion of the base. I'm not blind. I get it. And, also, I don't see how you watch the loss of the White House in the House and the Senate, even when it's close margins, even when it wasn't as much as predicted, and think the doubling down is what will get us out of this. There are Republicans that I consider politically astute, and I don't know how they look at that situation and think this is the path out for us. I don't understand it. I really, really, don't.
Beth [00:20:25] If I were a software professional, I would be looking at companies who say, we don't want to hear it here, and crossing them off my list. Because that feels to me like a clear indication that there's not room for me unless I too believe the fiction that anything can be and remain apolitical, right?
Sarah [00:20:43] Right.
Beth [00:20:43] Unless I am also buying into that fiction. And so as a voter, I see the contrast between a Republican Party that's just tightening, and tightening, and tightening up around a loyalty test to a guy that depends on a fiction, contrasted with a Democratic Party that includes everyone from Joe Manchin to representatives Omar to liebe Ocasio-Cortez. And a White House with a Democratic president that says, "I really welcome all these ideas." You know, there are reports that President Biden is spending a lot of time in serious thought on the Republican infrastructure counterproposal from Shelley Capito Moore in West Virginia. Like, there seems to be a clear place where ideas can be open and debated and a place where they cannot. And as a voter, it's really obvious to me which one of those places I belong in.
Sarah [00:21:54] I picked our conversation Your Body Whose Choice, it was after Texas had passed its very aggressive abortion ban. And a lot of listeners reached out and said, "But wait, what does this mean when I'm asking people to wear a mask or get a vaccine?" What does that mean for my arguments around bodily autonomy? I love the way that we brought in listener voices, and we worked through, sort of, bigger philosophies about how to argue. Is inconsistency important? Do we care? I think it's becoming ever more relevant as the abortion conversation continues to heat up in this country, so enjoy the segment.
[00:22:52] Here we are, we're a year and a half into the pandemic, a global public health crisis requires that we think about our bodies a lot. It requires that we think about each other's bodies a lot. Add in a growing tide of anti-abortion legislation, especially the new law in Texas, and all of us are thinking about our bodily autonomy and how much control we want the government or our neighbors to have over our bodies, and how much control we want to have over our neighbor's bodies.
Beth [00:23:19] Problem is, depending on what we're talking about, we are hearing some of the same arguments come from our opponents that we've set about them before. And it has a lot of us wondering, am I being hypocritical?
Sarah [00:23:34] So, first, Brooke reached out to us because she's joined the fight in Iowa against the governor's prohibition on mask mandates. So the governor of Iowa, Kim Reynolds, has written into law a complete and total ban on mask mandates. Now, Brooke thinks the lack of mask mandates is a violation of her rights. Of course, she hears the same thing from parents who don't want a mask mandate because they believe it violates their religious freedom. Both sides are using this argument of, well, if you don't like it, you can homeschool, she said:
Brooke [00:24:07] I'm concerned and wondering if I'm actually fighting the same thing on the opposite side.
Sarah [00:24:15] So what do you think, Beth? Are we all being hypocrites when we tell religious parents they can homeschool but refuse to homeschool in the face of anti-mask mandates?
Beth [00:24:22] Well, let me say a bunch of things because I have a bunch of jumbled thoughts. The strongest opinion that I have about any of this is that I so deeply appreciate Brooke examining this question.
Sarah [00:24:34] Yes.
Beth [00:24:35] And we have heard that from a number of listeners. Truly, the strongest thing I feel here is gratitude for anybody who is willing to step back and say," Let me critically think about my own position and how it relates to the way I interact with other people." From there, I have a bunch of not strong opinions. I'm really working on trying to articulate the intensity of how I feel about a position because I think something that's so frustrating right now, especially when you're talking about the Delta variant or about abortion, is that you can think out loud about something that you are truly and honestly grappling with and be met with responses that sound like you have just issued an edict as a monarch or something, right? So I only have draft opinions about all this because I think it's really hard.
Sarah [00:25:26] Mm-Hmm.
Beth [00:25:26] If I think about the word hypocrisy, I guess the first thing I would say is that I have always really valued intellectual consistency and something that I am continuing to learn, with age and life experience, is that it's kind of like efficiency. It has a place, but that place is not everywhere. And we should be able as adults, people, societies to say sometimes this is a little bit intellectually inconsistent, but it's also the best thing for us right now and we have to do it. So I'm less concerned about being a hypocrite, which we all are on some level about something because, again, I think that's right. I think we are going to be. And more concerned about, are we taking each other seriously and having the most honest searching conversations about hard topics that we can?
Sarah [00:26:20] Well, and I think this is particularly important with public health. That's what we've learned, right? Is if we are asking for someone to think through their choices as it impacts the group, that's the hard part of public health. Is we're asking people to do something that we don't ask them to do a lot. My opinion, we don't ask them to do enough in America. But which is how do your choices impact other people? And so there is, I think, a little bit higher bar with public health when it comes to that argument because people feel like, well, if you're asking me to change something for someone else, then you better have a very good reason and you better be honest about where you don't know. And I think the instinct in public health is to sort of bury where we don't know because we think if we admit even a little bit of inconsistency then we've lost the argument. All is lost. When, in my experience, and it's taken me a long time to learn this, admitting some of the inconsistencies strengthens your argument. It shows people that they can trust you to say, I'm not sure. I don't know.
[00:27:18] Here's what I worry about my own hypocrisy or my own inconsistencies when it comes to COVID. I know because of what we do that there are parts of the world, there are parts of our own country where there are incredibly high vaccination rates and incredibly high mask adherence, and they are still experiencing incredible surges in Delta. And I think there's this narrative I hear where we blame all of it on people who didn't get vaccinated or who won't wear masks. They're the reason we're experiencing this. And when I look around the world and I look around in our country -- you know, Heather wrote in to us from the Seattle area and she said, "I'm glad I live here, but we have high vaccination rates and we still have counties in the red." To me, that's where I worry about, am I being inconsistent?
[00:28:04] I even thought about this sometimes with the Trump administration. I thought, I hate his decision making. And, also, we are not the only place in the world experiencing COVID. There are people with leaders who I would, you know, give everything I have to have in charge and they're still experiencing COVID. And so when we say it's so easy and tempting to just be like, well, this is the reason, when there's always never one reason or one population or one set of decision making that is the cause of the problem. But we want that easy narrative, and I think that's where the inconsistencies can really, really, hurt you. Now, as far as the Brooke's specific question, to me, I think arguing for or equating because this is we're going to talk about a lot. This is what we heard over and over in our Instagram comments when we brought up this topic, which is it's a false equivalency.
[00:28:53] And I do think there is an aspect of false equivalency with saying religious parents concerns about freedom of practice is the same as public health concerns for public health. Listen, it's worth noting that the Department of Education seems to agree. They're investigating these anti-mask mandates as violating the civil rights of disabled students who are more at risk for COVID. So because it feels like you're arguing for your individual rights and the other one is arguing to protect the group. But I can still see where where you struggle. And, look, I don't like the argument of you don't like it homeschool no matter what you're concerned about. I don't like that as a way to deal with problems within the public school system. You don't like it, leave. Like I just think that that's like a crappy form of problem-solving.
Beth [00:29:41] I totally agree. That's a crappy form of problem solving. I am personally letting go of false equivalency as a part of how I analyze any issue. Mm hmm. Because pretty much any comparison of two things has an element of being a false equivalence.
Sarah [00:29:58] Right. Right.
Beth [00:29:59] And comparisons are still how our brains make sense of the world and comparisons are still how people are going to argue with each other. And there is some value in that argument, even when it's clearly a false equivalency. I hear -- and I say this with love and respect for everyone who in good faith is saying these things are too different to put in the same framework. And I think there's truth to that. But I also hear in that, I am not going to take this argument seriously. I am not going to have this argument because I'm assuming that the people advancing the argument that I disagree with are coming to me in bad faith. And saying that's a false equivalency is my way of saying, "You're a bad faith actor and I'm not going to converse with you." And, listen, some people are. Granted. Conceded. Some people are. What I think about the four problems that are dominating every conversation I have right now Afghanistan, COVID and Delta, abortion and what's going on economically. When I think about those four problems, it helps me to reorient myself to where the vast majority of Americans are on these four issues. Polling and surveys, as flawed as they are, tell us that the vast majority of Americans wanted to leave Afghanistan and also don't like the way that it's been done.
[00:31:22] The vast majority of Americans just want to be done with COVID and will do what is necessary to get there, and will accept some sickness for the rest of their lives, but not this kind of sickness. The vast majority of Americans think that in some circumstances, abortion ought to be legal and not in others, that there should be some regulation around that. And the vast majority of Americans want their goods and services to continue uninterrupted, no matter what external forces are surrounding the economy. So when I reorient myself to where most people are, I can have a clearer conversation about the relationship between asking someone to get a vaccine and telling someone they may not have an abortion. Instead of arguing with, like, the most extreme version of that position, if I just think there are a lot of people who are honestly saying, I don't know how I feel about these two things. And I want to talk to those people.
Sarah [00:32:21] Let's move on to the abortion component of that. Everybody take a deep breath. It's a complicated topic. It's a hard topic, but it's worth talking about. Katie commented on our conversation about the Texas law and said she just has this nagging concern that she's had some inconsistency. She says, "I believe in my body, my choice in public health. While I know that a woman chooses or needs to have an abortion is not a public health issue, I'm having a hard time squaring my position on abortion and mask and vaccine mandates, which I'm also for because it still falls in that my body, my choice camp." We put this on Instagram. Lots of comments. So many comments that it's not the same. A lot of people use that false equivalency argument. And yes, of course, we all understand inherently that pregnancy and a virus are different. But I do not think that the people -- and there were a lot of people in the comments who said, "I've been wondering the same thing," don't understand that there's something else going on here deeper than bad faith actors making that argument. I think a lot of people are feeling that tug, that tug of, like, but wait, what is the difference?
[00:33:33] And I think we should we should honor that. And I think the idea that just because there's a bad faith actor present in the debate, shuts down the debate, means we don't have any debate. When we say that we are together as a community, the community will always involve bad faith actors always and forever. In a country of 300 million people or in your small town of, you know, 200, there's always going to be a bad faith actor. And so I think acknowledging that, like you said, and just in remembering that, but that's not where most people are coming from. Most people, I think when you look at those four things you just recited, none of those things can be summed up with a slogan. And that's my first thing. Like, let's just drop the idea that we can sum up these complicated issues with a slogan. Slogans belong on placards at marches, but they don't belong in the arguments between ourselves and our community members because it's too complicated. I know we want something to be -- again, we want that narrative, but that's not the reality. It's not the reality with abortion. It's not the reality with vaccine mandates. It's not the reality with damn near anything.
Beth [00:34:46] I 100 percent agree with that. I also think there are two layers, at least to these questions that Katie and Brooke and others are asking. I promise Brooke and Katie, I will directly tell you what I think about your questions. But let me just, kind of, show my work here. There is the question of how do I resolve this for myself? And that's where some of the slogans have value. We had a lot of people sharing Pregnancy Isn't Contagious. I can see why that is extremely persuasive to you in the context of your own thinking about how you resolve this question. It is also not valuable in a conversation where you're trying to build trust with another person in order to either convince them to get a vaccine or share why you are in favor of or opposed to something. The how do I communicate about this is different than how do I resolve this for myself?
Sarah [00:35:44] Mm-hmm.
Beth [00:35:45] And I feel like we need to hold on to that. Now, how do I resolve this for myself? I have said it before, and I think this is where I am landing. I am not at this time in favor of vaccine mandates. I am in favor of everyone getting a vaccine. And if you are listening and haven't gotten one, because I care about you as a person, I would like for you to do that. I also recognize we are still early in the process of people establishing trust and seeing how these work. There are certain populations for whom the vaccines are not as effective as others. There are certain populations for whom the risk associated with the vaccines is higher than others. Now, we might still weigh that risk as less than the known risk of COVID. I do.
[00:36:27] But I understand and have some space for why people aren't going to get a vaccine right now. Do I think that about every vaccine always? No, I don't. I think there are vaccines that absolutely should be required to participate in certain forms of social activity like going to school, like being in the military, like perhaps attending a concert. I have no problem with there being consequences associated with making a decision that differs from the decision the public health community tells us is required for us to have a sustainable health system in the country. But right now here today, I am not in favor of vaccine mandates for COVID 19. I am in favor of people getting vaccines.
Sarah [00:37:09] Now, do you mean that through government mandates or like employer mandates? How do you feel about a nurse losing her job because she will not get the vaccine?
Beth [00:37:18] I have no problem today with employer mandates for vaccines. I do not think governments should mandate those. I don't think a 10 year old student ought not be allowed in school because the 10 year old's parents have decided not to get the child vaccinated. I want that child to be vaccinated. I want this parents to choose differently. But I do not think today that government services should be denied or government mandates should be imposed around this vaccine.
Sarah [00:37:45] And you would put government as an employer when you're requiring federal employees to get the vaccine?
Beth [00:37:50] I think that I would. I think that's a little bit different question. I think for the military, it's a different question because of the way that people have to interact with each other, the way they have to interact with the world. So I think there's a distinction for me between the government as employer versus the government, as the governing authority for the citizenry. But right now, that's where I land.
Sarah [00:38:09] But I mean, look at just the three levels of complexity we pass through.
Beth [00:38:12] Right. Exactly.
Sarah [00:38:14] Pretty quickly. But I think there is something to the fact that if you are honoring the other side and you're saying, I really am trying to have a conversation with someone in my life about this and I believe them to be a good faith actor, they do see vaccine mandates, and if you support them then that's definitely the conversation you're having, as asking them to sacrifice their bodily autonomy for the good of someone else. And so they see that as the same thing that you say you will not accept an abortion. Now, I'm not saying I see it that way, but I think you can make that argument in a good faith way. I do believe that to be true. Because for me, you know, the way I solve these issues, for myself to get to Katie's question directly, is that for me, it is not the difference between a virus and pregnancy. To me -- and I know everybody is not here, and I acknowledge that.
[00:39:17] I worked at Planned Parenthood. That was my first job out of college. I've been pregnant four times. I've had a D&E at 20 weeks. I've spent a lot of time thinking about. What is going on inside my own body during pregnancy, how I feel about that, how I think about that, what my religious beliefs teach me about this. And for me, the difference is not between virus and pregnancy. For me, the difference is between a fetus and a person, and I do not believe a fetus to be a person. And I think that is what's so hard, right? I think that's the way to really address the crux of that. It's not that the inconsistency is between virus and pregnancy, it's that we feel differently. Some of us, not all of us, and that's why this is hard and we're never going to solve it. Some of us feel differently about fetuses and persons. And so asking someone to sacrifice their bodily autonomy through a vaccine for other people, versus somebody asking somebody to sacrifice their bodily autonomy for a fetus is different. That's where I have settled. That's how I feel about this.
[00:40:27] And I think so -- as so often happens in the abortion debate as I've witnessed it over my three decades, I feel like that I've been talking about it, is we don't want to say that and we want to avoid it. Some of us, because we don't feel that way. Even some pro-choice people don't feel that way. They have trouble articulating the status of a fetus because it's not like we have some clear answer. It's about articulating for yourself and being able to articulate it to somebody else who might feel differently, who I think we know inherently that if I say that the person is going to say, well, then we're done here because I don't feel that way. And that's what's hard. That's what's really hard about this debate is that when we really keep scratching at it, especially with regards to abortion that there are some like fundamental religious spiritual philosophical disagreements at the heart of it. What I think is always so important. I'm realizing this is just as true with issues of public health, is are we talking about what's right?
[00:41:25] Are we talking about what we think the government has a right to do? And that's to me, the other issue that's sort of always underneath all of this, is we're talking. You know, someone who's saying my body, my choice, what about vaccine mandates? But what about vaccine mandates? We have no government vaccine mandates in place currently. So what are you talking about? And I think that's it too. Like sometimes we're not really clearly articulating what are we talking about when it comes to the government.
Beth [00:41:54] Yeah, I really appreciate that, Sarah. I. Do not believe the government should prohibit abortion. And I don't think I'm in the same place as you are about whether a life is at stake at the beginning of a pregnancy. You know, I've been eating vegan for several months for health reasons, and I am really surprised at how much it has caused me to think about life in a number of contexts and just the way it has worked on me. So I think that I do believe that life begins at conception, and I still believe that the government should not make that decision for and with families. And that's really hard. That's really hard to own. But I think it's important to own it in these conversations. And let me speak to owning your personal experience, and the truth of what is at stake and what we're talking about on the COVID 19 side. You know, as we are recording one year from when my parents tested positive for COVID and my mother went to the hospital in an ambulance and spent 15 days there, she is still suffering from the effects of COVID and worries that she might always.
[00:43:07] And we talked about this just this morning, I think she is alive because of the grace of when she contracted COVID, because she got it after health professionals had enough experience to know how to treat it effectively and before they were crushed with an uptick in cases. And to sit here today knowing that my mom is alive because of timing is a really difficult thing. And I think we have to agree that life outside the womb is valuable and worthy of integrity as well. And so when you are making an argument, not you the listener but you in general, people who are making an argument that we should not get vaccines, we should not wear masks and we should not alter our behavior in any way because of this virus, you are not honoring life, either. And I want to be honest about what we're actually talking about on both sides of this equation. I will have a good faith conversation about my body, my choice with respect to both abortion and vaccines. And I want to be honest about the fact that I see life in both of those discussions, and that is hard. That makes this really difficult.
[00:44:25] And I want to be honest about the fact that even with masking, which I believe in as an effective, almost ancient understanding of how we help mitigate the spread of disease, I want to be honest about the fact that not all masks are created equal. The effectiveness of masks varies widely in terms of how they are worn and what type of mask we're talking about and that that is not a slam dunk either, but it is a mitigation measure. We are not promised complete effectiveness from any of the tactics we take to combat this virus. But it is a mitigation measure and I want to have an honest conversation about how far we're willing to go for one another in terms of mitigation efforts. And I see masks as entirely different from vaccines in that conversation. Much less is being asked of us, even though for some more is being asked. And I will have that conversation who reasonably cannot be expected to wear a mask. But for the vast majority of us, I see the mask question is very, very, different from the vaccine question.
Sarah [00:45:36] I want to clarify. I use the word person very specifically when I was talking about a fetus. I didn't use the word life because where I've settled is, there's so many areas that we have adopted a spectrum mentality, sexuality, gender. And the truth is, the other uncomfortable truth that people don't want to acknowledge is, we have also accepted that when it comes to life in lots of context. How we value life in the civil court system, how we make medical decisions. We operate pragmatically under a life is a spectrum reality when it comes to government and when it comes to decisions we make and laws we pass. And I think that I've just adopted that. You know, there's a lot of times where I see the pragmatic reality of how we deal with something, and I think, well, we're dealing with it that way for a reason, not because we need to find a religious answer in which we pinpoint exactly when a life begins and that it is a total and complete equal value to every other life on planet Earth. We don't operate like that, even in religious contexts. You know, we might say one thing, but we don't act that way in any space.
Beth [00:46:51] We'll just think about the conversation we had in the first segment about who gets to leave Afghanistan with government support.
Sarah [00:46:56] Exactly. And so there's just -- I'm not fighting that anymore. I'm sorry if it makes people uncomfortable. You know, Lisa sent us this fantastic quote from Learning How to See with Brian McLaren, which is a podcast coming from the Center for Action and Contemplation, which both of us follow in like. And he said, "The brain prefers a confident lie to a hesitant truth." And I've just embraced the hesitant truth that we treat life as a spectrum and that that's okay and we must do it for a reason. And so I'm not looking for that pinpointed this is exactly when it starts and this is how I feel. I just I'm embracing the complexity of how we really do treat this in reality. And, look, there's some of that complexity with COVID too. And I think the people who get angry and you see their like will masse even work, or there are people with vaccinations that are getting COVID and are in the hospital. They're trying to to touch on what they feel in good faith or in bad, is a confident lie.
[00:47:58] That we think we have the answer, and if everybody did it COVID would stop. But that is a lie. That is a lie we tell ourselves that if we could control everybody, it would be over. Because for one thing, we can't and we never will be able to. And for another thing, even if we could, there are lots of countries that got pretty darn close and they're still dealing with the Delta surge. And so I think those people, again, some in good faith, some in bad, are sniffing out that confident lie. And the best thing that we can do to build trust is to name it ourselves and to say, "You're right, there is complexity here. And it is really hard when we're talking about the public health and in a community as big and diverse as ours." And to just name that, not to say you're right, like I agree with you, but to say I understand why you feel that way. I can see that too.
Beth [00:48:51] So let me give you my hesitant truth in response to Brooke's question about parents fighting for a mask mandates. My hesitant truth is that I think that it is reckless to have school right now without students and teachers wearing masks. I think it is irresponsible and reckless and a disservice to the community. I also think the court system is a terrible place to figure that out. I think courts are telling us we are a terrible place to figure out COVID. I wish every judge in the country could just put that sentence in their opinions about this stuff because you can feel that undercurrent. This is a terrible place to try to figure this out. I also recognize that there isn't a good place to figure this out because school board meetings have just beyond jumped the shark. And I recognize that there is an incongruence that's going to make a lot of y'all mad in the way that we're talking about this and the way that it's being talked about in public forums about these issues. Because in public forums about these issues it is the most extreme version of the argument.
[00:49:55] And so I don't begrudge any advocacy around mask mandates in school. I understand the motivation for that advocacy and I honor that motivation. And for me, the way that I am walking through this -- and some of this is just personality, gift, calling, what tools have we been given, for me, the way that I am walking through this, I am trying to put all my weapons down in these conversations and be an endless well of patience with other people. That's hard, and that is definitely not for everyone. I am trying to be an endless well of patience about this and to have quiet conversations that support people who are working in education that support our school board members, that support people making decisions at a state level. I am trying to show up and say, not everybody feels that way. I don't feel that way. I appreciate this. I want this. I am trying to teach my girls how to wear their mask properly and wash their hands and stay away from people as much as they can and just keep going. And remember as personal as the issue of sickness and suffering from COVID has become in my life, like it is in many of yours to far different degrees and to far more intense degrees than mine, I am trying to see this as part of a much longer chapter in how we relate to each other in this country, and to to do my best to move us in a positive direction in that chapter.
Sarah [00:51:35] Well, the reason that people are so mad, and I get it, is because the trick of the human brain, God bless us in all our complexity, is that we can sniff out the confident lie in somebody else while confidently lying our own asses off. Like, that's why we're also mad because we feel like, well, you may be right but how dare you say that to me when you yourself have your own blind spots? And look, yeah, it sucks. I get it. Human beings, as my friend Lacey says, they are the worst and also the best. I don't know. It's weird. I think that's what's so hard, is this all this balancing. Lots of you guys sent this to us, but Kelly sent this, the principle we learn which is, your freedom ends where someone else's starts and that there's this balance, but we know that balance is hard. It takes all the muscles. You got to use them all the time. Like, we just want a place to stand. But that's not how it works in a multicultural democracy. We're on one of those balance boards for the whole time. That's it. That's where we live in America in 2021.
[00:52:36] We're on those balance boards constantly tipping back and forth and trying to figure it out together. And you know, I think that the fears about hypocrisy or those like nagging concerns is that we know that, we know that this is going to be a constant balance. And then it's not as simple as being right and convincing everybody else that we're the right ones. We're seeing now, especially when it comes to COVID. But as we've seen repeatedly for decades with abortion that there's a balance. That's the balance you hear in that public polling. Role shouldn't be overturned, but there's lots of restrictions I'm okay with. And so I just think that, you know, we can keep fighting it. I don't think that's working very well, as opposed to acknowledging that there isn't an easy answer, no matter how horrendous those -- like the bill in Texas is. It is a horrendous, harmful piece of legislation? It doesn't simplify the complexities of abortion. It just doesn't. Abortion is still as complicated as it ever was, even in the presence of this horrendous law. I wish that wasn't true, but it is the reality of where we find ourselves in 2021.
Beth [00:53:45] I love that you talked about that balancing act, Sarah, because what it reminds me of is what we learn from Simone Biles. I feel like we're all trying to do that balancing act while we all have the twisties because there is an element in this entire conversation of coping mechanisms. These confident lies are created by our brains for a reason, and part of that is to deal with how hard it is to be present with so much suffering, to be present with so much complexity, to be present with terrible options sometimes, or an array of options so good that you can't figure out which to prioritize. And what we learn from Simone Biles' story is that, it's dangerous to try to balance when you are also coping with things, and that's what we're doing. And this Texas law has added fuel to that stress. There was already so much stress around abortion, and this has added exponential quantities of stress to that conversation. And so here we are trying to figure out how to treat each other and be citizens in a democratic society, in a multicultural democratic society while we are falling apart personally. And even if you feel pretty good today, there's probably some level on which the past two years have caused you to fall apart personally. That's a big lift.
Sarah [00:55:13] And it's because we're sold this lie in every advertising campaign that we're in control. And if we just buy the right thing and do the right, be productive and follow the right morning routine we'll be in control of our choices and won't have to worry about how other people affect us. Talk about a confident lie. You know, that is not true. And the harder we fight it, the harder it hurts, that it sinks in that that's not true. That our choices affect other people and their choices affect us, whether we like it or not. That's the difficulty and that's why we all feel so mad because we feel like we were sold a bill of goods and we were and continue to be. Again, I'm sorry, I don't like it either, but it is the reality of being a person, and in this particular moment in time,
Beth [00:56:03] I got a bunch of messages from very kind listeners lately that all sound like, "Are you okay? You sound not okay and I'm worried about you." And I really appreciate that. And the first thing is just, "Yes, I am okay. I always have peace, joy, love like a river fountain ocean in my soul. Okay, I'm good." And also, I am not good. Like, I am not good. This has been a traumatizing experience for me and everybody else. And we could compare those and come up with a lot of false equivalencies about my suffering versus anyone else's suffering. Again, the big framing for these questions that Brooke and Katie and others have presented today is I just want to keep being willing to be soft enough to ask those questions even when I find it really painful. That doesn't mean every single day. There are some days when I'm just going to have to go with my confident lies. You know, I am going to have to just use my coping mechanisms and simplify the issues and get on with it. But in the moments where I can find the energy for it, I think that it's really important to be able to step back and say, "Where am I on this and how does that compare to where I've been on other things? How am I treating other people's arguments? Am I being the person I want to be even when the people in front of me are very much not being the people I want them to be?"
Sarah [00:57:26] Well, and look, we're doing all of this in the middle of a trauma. This week is a huge week for all of us anyway because we are coming up on the 20th anniversary of 911. There's lots of good writing and reporting and podcasting about whether we're even over that trauma. The answer is probably no. We're going to talk about that on next week's Tuesday episode. On Friday, we're going to be sharing our series from 911 on the day of and our visit to the memorial. But, I mean, I just think like acknowledging all that stuff we're carrying and all the forces that press on us and burden us and push and pull us in a million different directions and do the same thing to the people that we are arguing with, whether or not we think they're good faith or bad faith actors, they are being tossed and turned by the waves of history just like us. And I think that acknowledging the complexity of where we are and where other people are is much more important than labeling ourselves or somebody else a hypocrite.
Beth [00:58:55] Outside of Politics, Alise and Maggie chose our conversation about Olivia Rodriguez album, in part because it was fun and they just wanted to have fun at the end of the year here. Alise said that she first liked this because it was one of the rare times when we talked about something in pop culture that we didn't get tons and tons of very critical feedback. It's funny. Sometimes our email's a little more intense about pop culture that we take on in that last segment. Then about the political discussions that we spend most of our time on. And that didn't work this time. And I think it's because pretty well everyone really appreciated what Olivia put together here. And then Maggie pointed out that it has, I assume, good connection to the sad girl autumn conversation that we just had. So please enjoy our discussion telling Olivia Rodrigo she's a genius for her album Sour.
Beth [00:59:53] I've listened to this album many times already. One thing that I really like about it is that, you know, as a 40 year old mom of two living in Kentucky, I have a feeling that Olivia did not have me in her mind when she was writing this. And, also, there are aspects of her lyrics that speak to pretty much every phase I've been through in my life. And there's something relatable, even at my current life stage, and holy moly, does she speak to previous life stages in a beautiful way? And I think that that's where you see the real gift of a songwriter when your lyrics transcend stage of life.
Sarah [01:00:34] You know, I was walking down the street playing Driver's License out loud with my two children because I do what I want, and that's that's what I wanted to do is listen to that song for perhaps the 50th time that day. And Griffin was like, "Urg, whatever, this song is the worst." And then I disowned him and made him find a new family. No, I'm just kidding. But I told him -- I was like, "Look this coming your way. Heartbreak is so hard and also worth it because it opens up all this art to you. And now you get to listen to Driver's License and be like, yeah, and then you get to listen a traitor and say, yeah, you might not have cheated, but you're still a traitor. I have been there. I have lived that. I've lived it. It was many, many years ago. We won't talk about how many." But it's so good. Like when my friend Leslie was like me age 40 singing about where's my teenage dream? Even though that sound like the angry -- I thought that song was so good. Look, I'm not a teenager. I'm not Gen Z. I don't understand that pressure. But when she says, "All I did was try my best. This is the kind of things I get" I feel it. I feel it. I'm about to turn 40 and I still feel it. I just think it's not easy to write an angry dance song. But she wrote two. There's such bops. I love them so much.
Beth [01:01:57] Well, and I think that even some of these lyrics can take you out of the romantic context as well. The song, Happier, where she says "Find someone great, but don't find no one better." Like, I felt that way about work, if I'm being perfectly honest. It's like I really hope things are going well at my former employer and that people miss me. I think it's a beautiful thing to like just be able to put words to that, you know, and words that can mean a lot of different things, depending on your headspace.
Sarah [01:02:25] Oh, and the end where she says, "Does she know how proud I am she was created."
Beth [01:02:31] Well, are you cry right now just reading the lyric?
Sarah [01:02:34] It's so good. Here's the other thing, when you find somebody like this, like we all remember the first time we heard Taylor Swift -- at least I do. I mean, I felt this way about Amy Winehouse's first album. I felt this way about the Dixie Chicks. There's just a sense of like, oh, I cannot wait to see what else that you can -- if you can express yourself so well and so fully at 17, I am so psyched to hear what you're going to be writing at 30 and what's going to happen when you have kids. Or if you don't have kids or whatever, like all that life journey and how it's going to play out because you are clearly like The Muse has you, you're in a really good working relationship with them. And I am very excited to see what happens next. It's why we're all so excited about Kacey Musgraves breakup album. Come on, because she broke up with her husband and we all know it's going to be the best music, just like Adele. I feel really bad about that. I do feel bad about those moments when you're like they had a breakup, yay! But it makes the best artist. It's just the truth.
Beth [01:03:32] Artists are better when they're bummed. And you see that with Taylor Swift. I mean, I think Folklore is leaps and bounds ahead of her early stuff, and I liked her early stuff. So I agree about being excited about the future. Okay, Sarah, you wanted to do favorite song favorite lyric from Sour.
Sarah [01:03:49] Okay, you go first.
Beth [01:03:51] Why do I have to go first?
Sarah [01:03:53] Because I'm not ready.
Beth [01:03:54] I think that my favorite song is Deja Vu because I think -- if you haven't listened to it, she is talking about how weird it is that you have these really intimate experiences with someone and then they go repeat those with someone else. And I think that is a universal, ubiquitous feeling. She also references Billy Joel, not just once.
Sarah [01:04:18] You always win with a Billy Joel reference.
Beth [01:04:19] And you get so many points for that. So I really, really, like that song. I think my favorite lyric is in Good For You, where she says, "I guess that you've been working on yourself. I guess that therapist I found for you, she really helped." Because, I mean, story of my life. Story of my life. And I just I really loved that little tweak. She can turn a phrase. She's good.
Sarah [01:04:39] She can turn a phrase. I mean, look, I think my favorite song probably is Driver's License. It's a hit for a reason and has an SNL skit for a reason. Like the momentum in that song is so good when she breaks into the "Red light stop signs." I just feel like I could fly.
Beth [01:04:56] SNL was like, "Get ready for the bridge of your life."
Sarah [01:04:59] It's so good. It's so good. I think my favorite line in any song is in Happier where she says like, "Cutting her down makes you miss my wretched heart." I just think that's like she's got it all right there. Like I want to go after her, I want to cut her down, but I know it's not going to miss you. And I'm just like wretched heart? Come on, it's so good. But there's a lot. Listen, I got a list. I got a list of lines in that album that I just think are killer. "I know that beauty is not my lack, but it feels like that weight is on my back." Come on, Olivia, you're killing it out there, girl. You're killing it. She just did. Listen, she can turn a phrase. It's just like Taylor Swift. I mean, there's so many times where she has two lines and you're like, you can write a whole screenplay in those two lines. It's so good. It contains so much.
Beth [01:05:45] Most relevant line to political podcasters "I'm the love of your life until I make you mad."
Sarah [01:05:49] Oh! My god. Yes. Yes, it's so true. Oh! That is the truest thing you've ever said. It's the truest thing you've ever said right there. You and Olivia have captured it. It's so good and it's so fun. I it's just fun too when everybody is listening to something.
Beth [01:06:08] It is fun, yeah.
Sarah [01:06:08] We don't have a lot of experiences like that anymore. You know, like, we don't always watch the same thing. Everybody's watching things at different pace. But I put it on my Instagram like, "Oh no, she's got me. How long am I going to be in her spell?" And everybody was like, "Forever." Well, I got a range. I got two weeks to forever. So I think it's just fun that everybody's out there listening to it and loving it. And I've even played it for my grandmother and she was like, "It's a really good song." I'm like, "I know. Right, right. It's so good." It's just it's a good song.
Beth [01:06:36] Thank you all so much for revisiting some of these segments with us, we are so delighted that you joined us today. We'll be back in your ears with a new episode about end of year reflection and planning for 2022 on Tuesday. Until then, have the best week and holiday available to you.
Beth [01:07:01] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
Sarah [01:07:06] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.
Beth [01:07:12] Our show is listener supported. Special thanks to our executive producers:
Executive Producers (Read their own names) Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.
The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy Whited.
Beth Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller.