The Wellness Industry's Influence: Part 2

In a continuation of our conversation from Tuesday's episode, we are exploring the history of the anti-vax movement and the places where it has connections to QAnon and the wellness industry.

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WELLNESS, ANTI-VAX, AND QANON

Transcript

Beth [00:00:00] So if you have this whole community of people who are so mad that they're being told that they can't buy their way around something or otherwise make their own decision, and then you have a Gavin Newsom situation or Speaker Pelosi with her haircut or whatever. All of that is going to get amplified because it is like a level of privilege and access that not all of us can crack. It just made everything infinitely worse. 

Sarah [00:00:33] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:34] And as Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:36] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:51] Hello, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics, where we try to take a bit of a different approach to the news. And we're taking a different approach, in general, today because we are diving into part two of the conversation we began on Tuesday's episode about the wellness industry. Tuesday, we talked about the history of the wellness industry and kind of what that industry encompasses, as well as our personal stories in wellness. So we encourage you to listen to that episode first. 

[00:01:16] Today, we are going to try to pick up the connection between parts of wellness and the anti-vax movement. Additionally, this episode is coming to you on Black Friday, and at the end of the show, we're going to share some gift ideas for the pantsuit politics listeners in your life. You might want to stick around and add some things to your own list or share that part of the episode with someone who cares about you so that they can get you some good stuff this holiday season. 

Beth [00:01:53] Sarah, we left off Tuesday talking about how there is a darker side to wellness than what we have kind of personally stepped into, and I think we were distilling some of those problems around a fear of death, a desire to control everything, and the tension between caring for yourself as an individual and the community. And all of those things seem quite relevant to any discussion about the anti-vax movement, which of course, did not begin with COVID 19. 

Sarah [00:02:23] No, it's been around for a long time, and I think you really see it take off, not surprisingly, around the time that the wellness industry starts to take off, not because they were, you know, inextricably linked, although in many ways they are, but because you see more pushback on vaccines generally in the later part of the 20th century with vaccine courts and vaccine injuries. And then, of course, with the infamous study published in The Lancet linking autism to MMR vaccines. Thoroughly debunked at this point, just thoroughly, thoroughly debunked. But I think that was just the kindling on a fire that was already burning at that point. 

Beth [00:03:11] And just like we see during COVID, there are both left-leaning and right-leaning theories of the case about vaccines. So on the right, you have a greater sense of like, I don't like compulsion. I don't want to be forced to do anything. And on the left, you have sort of pharmaceutical company mistrust, anti-corporate interests, and those forces kind of merged around the autism situation. The Jenny McCarthy moment, they have merged in some ways around natural birth and parenting, which we talked about on Tuesday's episode, and they have certainly merged around the COVID 19 vaccines. 

Sarah [00:03:51] Well, I think what you see at all of these points is a lack of really good guidance, often because there's a lack of information. Nobody wants to hear, "We don't know," especially when it comes to your own health, your own body, your children, your children's health. But that is often the answer. We don't know. We don't know so much, so so much about autism. We don't know a lot about COVID 19 still. We certainly didn't at the beginning. We don't know a lot about nutrition. I'll never forget the moment in Michael Pollan's book The Omnivore's Dilemma, where he says something like nutritional science is basically in the Dark Ages still. I mean, if you're my mom's age, for example, what have you heard? Fat is terrible. Fat is great. Butter is terrible. Margarine is great. Oh, wait, margarine is terrible. Butter is great. Sugar is terrible. Sugar is fine. Like, I mean, just the conflicting...

Beth [00:04:46] Eggs are terrible eggs are fantastic. 

Sarah [00:04:47] Eggs are fine, eggs are fun. Like just the conflicting evidence. Not to mention, right now, you could find somebody who will tell you all you should eat is meat versus somebody that tells you you should never touch meat. I mean, just the differing conclusions, not even narratives like conclusions coming out as reported in, particularly like in the media about just what we should and shouldn't eat over the past 50 years, will leave you in a real place of distrust. 

Beth [00:05:20] I feel this way every time somebody writes about water, how much water we should drink every day because for the longest time it was everybody's dehydrated. We should be walking around constantly with the biggest containers of water we possibly can. And then every once in a while, somebody will write a piece and be like, actually, there's like diminishing returns on all that water that we're drinking. Actually, if you're eating enough fruits and vegetables, you don't need all that extra water. What are we doing? This is really more of a status symbol than a health measure. And that lack of consistent, clear guidance has really been, I think, why we have failed whatever societal test COVID 19 has been presenting. Because from the beginning, we have not agreed on the scope of the threat of COVID 19, and we have not agreed on in America, at least any of the tools that we have to mitigate the threat presented by COVID 19. 

Sarah [00:06:15] Well, and I think the problem is it's not nefarious, right? I think depending on what side of the political spectrum you are on, you're saying, well, that's because the government's out to get you or that's because corporations are out to get you. And it's not either of those things, not that there aren't people with less than pure motives throughout all of our institutions and industries. It's just that they're all run by humans and humans with a lack of complete information. In an environment where you can find lots of information, you can be overwhelmed with information pretty easily in our current media and information environment, while also having to face the reality that sometimes the answer is "I don't know." Even if you have the internet at your fingertips, sometimes the answer is "we don't really know." 

Beth [00:07:05] And to be fair, nobody has done, "I don't know" well enough. Throughout the pandemic. So let's talk about that wellness to QAnon pipeline. There was already. A pretty tight connection between wellness and QAnon pre-pandemic in sort of the libertarian thread of like everybody leave me alone, I do what I want to do. Mainstream media, mainstream medicine, mainstream anything is out to get you. Elites are pulling all of these strings and we're all waiting for the day when the elites get toppled. Some of that ideology around the great awakening in QAnon you can link up if you want to just take things out of context from yoga and other sort of eastern medicine ideas, you can link all that up with the Great Awakening. You can certainly link that up with Christianity and other faiths and that kind of révélations view. So there was already like an ambiguous spirituality to QAnon pre-pandemic. 

Sarah [00:08:15] Well, and I think you'd already had sort of the what they call the pastel QAnon. It had already moved off like 8chan and these really dark, kind of gross corners of the internet where, like the mainstream is not going to step a foot, certainly not white wealthy women who practice yoga. So you had already seen this transition onto like Instagram. And basically, it all get cleaned up and a pretty filter and some nice wording and definitely linked with like child sex trafficking. And we all remember the Wayfair situation and so it had already been sort of pushed into the mainstream through many of these social media platforms, in particular Instagram. And you see influencers who had big followings because of yoga or veganism or home birth or all these things. They already had this following. And so then all of a sudden you start to dig and scratch at some of their hashtags or some of their wording, and you start to see these QAnon red flags popping up. 

Beth [00:09:21] And dig and scratch is a great word for it because one of the things I noticed as we were doing our research and actually going to some of these channels. It amazed me how many people wanted to keep their grid pretty, but then fill it with lots of memes from the QAnon space. So the first graphic in a carousel of graphics would be kind of a beautiful food for thought. And then you'd scroll and it would be like Rah, the elite cabal is coming for you and your kids. You know, it's just kind of wild how stylistically this all got packaged and continues to be packaged on Instagram. 

Sarah [00:09:59] Well, and I think the most important piece for me, where it really got put together, I was reading a lot of interviews. It was really interesting to read about people like who were in the space, and all of a sudden their friends were posting this stuff and they're like, Wait, what? And, you know, it was out there, it was being filtered and made consumable. In a way it had not been previously. And then you have COVID hit right and then you have mask mandates and shutdowns and then you bump right up against the status and privilege of the wellness industry. People who were not used to being told no are people who had built their influencing on this idea of like I push against the status quo. I'm not told no or I was told I couldn't do this by doctors. And then the wellness helped me do this right. They already had these narratives that like, they don't take no for an answer. And then you have shutdowns and mask mandates, and that bumps right up against that. And so they're primed, ready and primed to make it a fight. 

Beth [00:11:06] And that is made worse by every example of any public official who had any measure of hypocrisy. Through those shutdowns, right? So if you have this whole community of people who are so mad that they're being told that they can't buy their way around something or otherwise make their own decision, and then you have a Gavin Newsom situation or Speaker Pelosi with her haircut or whatever. All of that is going to get amplified because it is like a level of privilege and access that not all of us can crack. It just made everything infinitely worse. 

Sarah [00:11:45] Well, and I mean, look, you can't ignore the social media aspect of this either. There was an amazing report in the L.A. Times about particularly the QAnon anti-vax movement inside the yoga community. And they talked about, you know, especially in Southern California, as the number of yoga studios soared that you had like a real supply and demand situation. And a lot of yoga studios figured out, well, I can pay my Southern California rent, which is insanely high by training other teachers. It's a lot you make a lot more money off a $3000 teacher training than you do a monthly class package. And so then all of a sudden you have a lot of yoga teachers, more yoga teachers than maybe the market can support. And so there are a lot of these yoga teachers in order to like, build influence and make money, turn to social media. 

[00:12:35] And even if you're a yoga teacher, sometimes the best way to build influence is to be controversial, to have a hot take. That's how you build a following. That's how you get eyes on your posts. You know, I think that's something that's really important to remember is as social media comes along. Even in a space that on the surface, be it yoga, be holistic healing, whatever that's supposed to be about peace and calm and getting people to a higher plane. The algorithm is the algorithm, and the algorithm doesn't always reward peace and calm. The algorithm rewards engagement hot takes about vaccines, about dairy, about whatever the case may be, right? 

[00:13:21] And it's really interesting when you look through the big study on the Dirty Dozen the misinformation does on these the study that came out that said, basically like 65 percent of anti-vaccine content came from these like 12 influencers, and they talk about one in particular, Joe Mercola, as like a really good case study. And he figured that out. He figured out as he got more popular that making some sort of unproven are really far-fetched. Health claim amplified. The post got him to sell more products to Oh Just So Happens helps to address this claim he made right from like vitamin supplements to yogurt, or whatever the case may be. He promotes the alternative treatments after this controversial post, and it's like a cycle that just repeats itself over and over and over again. And he's not the only one that figured out that that's the way to make money and get eyes on your post and grow your influence. 

Beth [00:14:18] I just want to do a quick side note here about social media influence, because this is true whether you're a yoga teacher in any space, right? The way to grow your social influence is to be controversial. A comment on one of our posts that has hurt my feelings more than anything else we've gotten on social media is that we posted about the Lula Row documentary and there was tons of engagement. Well, that's what we wanted, not because we wanted the engagement, but because we knew our community was interested in talking about that. And someone said, basically, I think they posted this just to drive engagement, and it hurt my feelings so bad because we have deliberately, in conversation after conversation and decision point after decision point said, we are not trying to be influencers on Instagram. Our grid is not pretty. It is. It is an utter mess. There is not a coherent thread to what's going on because it is just a place to engage with the people who listen to the podcast. That, to us is the point of having this space. 

[00:15:19] And so whenever you see us out there in this world, I just want you to know that our whole goal is to have conversations that are interesting to the people who listen to the podcast. And that's it. Because the second you leave that goal and you are really trying to build a following and build a brand, there's nothing wrong with that. But the incentives get really perverse fast. I totally understand why these women who otherwise post gorgeous pictures of their homes and their families and the products that they like, throw in a dash every now and then of. Real extreme rhetoric about health, because it does drive up that following that conversation, and it ensures that they've already built a connection with you so that you're open to whatever controversial take they're sharing. 

Sarah [00:16:12] So there's definitely a social media component. There's also a real anti-science thread. And let's get into that after the break. 

Beth [00:16:35] I don't know if anti-science is exactly the word I would pick out. There is an anti-science thread, but I want to be more specific than that because it's almost a rejection of the people doing the science. I feel like when I talk with people, especially in the anti-vax space or people who want to talk about alternative treatments for COVID ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, there is a lot of throwing around statistics and studies. And what about this out of Australia or this out of Israel? So it's not like there's an anti-science thread completely as much as there is a sense that, "they," someone, doesn't want you to get all the information available because "they" have an agenda that "they" are pushing on you. 

Sarah [00:17:23] Yeah, I agree there is a real elevation of the idea that, like you're questioning the status quo, that that is morally righteous, that you're searching out the information, they don't want you to have, that you have the secret information. You know, Mike Rothschild, who writes so beautifully and well and report so well on the QAnon in particular about conspiracy theories. He, you know, he really names us a lot as the fuel for all the conspiracy theories, not just QAnon. There's lots of, you know, conspiracy theories, obviously surrounding COVID too. That's the fuel for that fire, right? This idea that they're trying to keep something from you. I am not motivated by that. That is not a thread that's ever motivated me inside the wellness space. But I get it like, I get why it's appealing. I mean, again, if you're hearing one takedown after the next of like they said, this drug was safe and it's not. They said this food was fine, and it's not. They said this was good for you and it's not like you can see where you're where you learn to lean into that narrative. 

Beth [00:18:21] Yeah. Mike Rothschild had a tweet the other day about wellness and anti-vax and said that there is a real lure of secret knowledge that you are special enough to be invited into the room where there is secret knowledge not being shared with the masses and that that drives a lot of people. And in fairness, I think that part of the problem throughout the pandemic has been ascribing morality to your position on any kind of COVID protocol, precaution, treatment, no matter where you stand on it. We have decided that nothing here is a tool. Everything here is a statement and how much you care about people and how much you care about individual liberty and how much you care about your children like we have everybody. I have participated in that and I have regrets about how I have talked about masking and even vaccinations throughout the pandemic because as strongly as I believed, it is important to participate in a communal way around this extremely communicative disease. I think I've added to the problem in some spaces by being more definitive than it made sense to be. 

Sarah [00:19:32] Well, and I think the anti-science part for me is the cherry-picking. It's the we don't trust studies until it's a study we trust. It's, you know, we don't trust authorities until this one doctor says it's OK. And I think that's why you see the pernicious presence in that dirty dozen of doctors. You know, Dr. Christine Northup's on the list and she was definitely on Oprah. I had her book, I remember. And again, I think it's that wash, that light wash of sight. It's like just enough to reel people in because I remember why she was so appealing. And I think why Oprah had her on it because she was speaking about hormones and menopause and perimenopause before anybody else. And so she built a lot of trust being like, I know you feel like they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to hormones, and you're right, they don't. There's not a lot of information on hormones and how they affect women's bodies. That's still true. I think that impacts like fertility issues, reproductive issues, perimenopause many menopause is a huge on ramp for so many women into this space because it is a real neglected area in our health care system. 

[00:20:45] So it's that that wash of expertise, be it an osteopath. I mean, in those they go to medical school or a chiropractor or an alternative medicine practitioner or something like that, right? And the reason that people like Emily Oster and Zeynep Tufekci have my heart forever is because they speak to the strengths of studies. Instead of just citing them, they'll say, OK, well, everybody's saying this study. This is the problems I see with it. The sample wasn't quite big enough. It wasn't peer-reviewed instead of just, you know, manipulating people with studies, which I think both sides do. Some people to much more harm than others. But I think that's what's so hard is it's just this. You know, it's not like you just need expertise in whatever the study is speaking to, but you need expertise in how good the study is. 

Beth [00:21:32] And I think that all of this kind of comes to a head in Plandemic, which we talked about on the podcast. We did and we did a whole episode about that YouTube conversation. It was kind of styled as a documentary. And it brings together all of these different concerns that people have around the pandemic, right, it married up, just "you don't like this, it's sucks" with sort of pseudoscience "it doesn't suck as bad as they say. We can control this better than they say we can." With "they are a big conspiracy out to get your knowledge." And that kind of QAnon vibe of this is just one more step toward global authoritarian domination by elites. And what we need to do is fight to be the ones who take all that down so everybody can live their best lives. All of that gets married and has babies in Plandemic. 

Sarah [00:22:33] Well, and I think what so many people don't want to hear is it marries up with a lot of progressive, circles, right? Like the anti-vax movement is not a conservative only movement. There was an interesting piece, I think, in a San Francisco paper about how seven schools in the Bay Area, more than half of the students are unvaccinated half. Half of them was a huge number. And so I think this is where you see some really strange bedfellows in the anti-vax movement, in the QAnon movement or you see people that just like were hardcore for Obama and then went all the way to the other end of the spectrum. And I just think it speaks to how complicated this is. This isn't just about ignorance. This isn't just about people being dumb or being anti-science or being, you know, whatever pejorative you want to want to throw around. This is not about individual moral failings. There are much bigger cultural components, institutional failings and political threads that are a piece of all this. And I think Plandemic was that moment where there was already a fire burning. And that just the kindling was dumped right on top of it. 

Beth [00:23:54] And I just want to be really open and honest about how there are bits and pieces of all of this that I completely get. The pandemic has sucked. I would love for someone to say, this was all an elaborate ruse, and we can forget about every single bit of it and go back to living our lives as normal. We're going to hold the people who did this to us accountable. Wouldn't that be nice? 

Sarah [00:24:18] Mm hmm. 

Beth [00:24:19] I get the concern about the vaccine being developed really quickly. That's why we had a doctor from Johns Hopkins on this show to ask about vaccine development. And I was listening carefully to his answers. And what he told us about why the COVID 19 vaccines were able to be studied more quickly than other vaccines because COVID is just so. Easily transmitted made a lot of sense to me, and it helped me a lot in thinking about this, but I got some of that hesitation. I think the problem has continued to come where every concern gets met with, no, you are stupid and wrong. And then somebody is standing in the wings going, Oh, did they tell you you're stupid and wrong for having a question will come join us. We question everything. Having a question is the best possible thing you could do. And so there's exploitation happening in that space that tells you that you're being exploited and it's just a merry-go-round that never seems to stop. 

Sarah [00:25:21] I guess. Yeah, and I don't want to do exactly what you talked about on the last episode. I don't want to make it an all in an easy villain and easy hero because that's not what's going on here. It's way more complicated than that. And I think it's easy. It's easy to get in your head about anti-vaxxers. That's why I'm so just an off of what Maggie did to step out and say, No, that was me. I fell down that rabbit hole, you know, and I thought I was doing the right thing because that's it. I mean, people think they're doing the right thing. They think they're doing the right thing for their kids. They think they're protecting their kids. And I just think it's it's hard to keep that empathy when it touches on stuff that is so. So tender for most of us, issues of health, our own personal experiences inside the health care system, our own personal experiences with wellness, be they positive or negative. You know, we haven't even touched much on the spiritual component of all this and why we're all so susceptible. When you add in how we feel about life and death and what happens after you die and you know what we're all connected to on this planet or others, I mean, like you could go down a whole rabbit hole of Gaia and Aliens and Demi Lovato. Look, there's just like there's a lot here, as all I'm saying. 

Beth [00:26:43] And questions about why we're here and what role sickness and suffering are supposed to have in our lives? It's a lot. I want to talk about ivermectin really quick, if we can. Because part of the history of anti-vax movements has often involved demands for alternative medicines. That was new information to me as we did this research because I have been so confused by hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin as these like partisan, no, we have the real answer tools. It's just taken me by complete surprise. So it was helpful to me to learn that throughout history, when you have someone demanding that the status quo is wrong, they often have their own answer to whatever problem the status quo is trying to solve. And I was reading about these two drugs in particular, and what's strange about ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine is that they are still pharmaceutical drugs that have approved uses. That's unusual that the opposition to the medical establishment is presenting what is a tool in the medical establishment's arsenal just for other purposes and rejecting sort of the approval system and saying, no, we want to use this for to solve this particular problem, not the problem that it's approved to solve. 

Sarah [00:28:04] Interesting, but not surprising because, you know, this is our first pandemic in a while. Our first pandemic with the internet. So not surprising that we're going to have some unique manifestations of our anxieties and new conspiracy theories and new interactions between the sort of conspiracy theory, the wellness influencer, the political moment, and treatments available. 

Beth [00:28:29] And ivermectin is a perfect example of how "I don't know" is usually the right answer. I totally understand why ivermectin was rolled out for use across the world. Because it has been a miraculous drug for countries that frequently battle parasites and all of the infections that arise from parasitic worms and things like that. So it is a complete miracle, and I think it has been a misstep for the American sort of media medical establishment. Now I sound like I'm way into the Wellness House, but I think it's been a misstep to mock ivermectin. Over the past few months, I feel like the message that they were trying to communicate is please don't self prescribe and please don't source from veterinary supply stores because that is the wrong dosage for a human and is the wrong application of this drug to a human. 

[00:29:31] But that's really messy and hard. And so instead we get stopped taking cow drugs or stop taking horse pills, right? Instead of, actually, it's complicated. This is a really good drug. People are trying it for this. And just the past couple of weeks, we're starting to get some information that the reason ivermectin has had some success in certain studies throughout the world is because if you are in a place where a lot of people are exposed to mosquitoes, parasitic worms, issues like that, having ivermectin as part of the COVID treatment makes sense. You've got to get rid of that stuff so that your body can actually fight the COVID infection. 

[00:30:10] And so it's not that it's categorically never going to have value as part of the protocol. It's just not the miracle that's being promised. It's not preventive and it's not a complete cure for everybody. It's just a very complicated thing. And I bet we are only at the beginning of what we're eventually going to understand about it. And I think this whole crisis has been so difficult because in order for public health measures to work, you do need everybody to buy into them and getting people to buy in requires a whole lot of. No, I know I have the answer. This is the answer right here and you need to do this exact thing and don't ask questions about it. And that just fuels a fire that's already burning around, what's everybody's agenda? 

Sarah [00:30:55] So often on this podcast, I feel a lot like George W. Bush in that one debate where he says being president is hard. You know? 

Sarah [00:31:05] And they made fun of them for just being president is hard because I feel like so often I just come down to being human's hard guys. I don't know the answer. I'm trying to find a little bit stronger of a recommendation than just it's hard out there, guys. I don't know what to tell you. And I think as I'm coming out of this wellness conversation and just spending a lot of time with how people struggle in the space and the damage it does, the real damage it can do. Is to remind myself I can't talk someone into trusting something. You know, I can't have one conversation or two conversations or three conversations that's going to help someone build trust with the medical community or the pharmaceutical industry. A statistic or an article is not going to get them there. 

[00:31:55] I think for myself and in conversations with other people, I'm going to start asking, what are we trying to control? What are you trying to control here? I know I'm trying to control my body because I'm really afraid of the ways it may fail me. And maybe you are, too or I think I'm really trying to bring some control to my mothering because it's a really scary pursuit to mother and constantly worry you're getting it wrong and that's what I'm trying to control. And I'm grateful for the tools out there that have helped me feel like I'm a little more in control. But I try to always remember that that's what I'm doing and that ultimately that can be a pretty fruitless pursuit. And just recognize that and speak to it in my own life and hope that I open up space for someone else to recognize it in theirs. And that's about all I can do. 

Beth [00:32:44] I think asking what's the goal? It makes a lot of sense. I also think it makes sense to just ask where my trust is being solicited because it always is, right? And that's not wrong. It's not wrong for people to sell something. It's not wrong for people to ask for trust. It's not wrong for people to ask you to take part in some kind of measure, like masking. It's not wrong where my trust is being asked for. What is being offered in return? And how am I being respected in the process of my trust being asked for, and that cannot be completely individualized. And it can't be, well, my feelings were hurt, so I said absolutely not all of this. But in general, is my dignity being upheld and is the dignity of other people being upheld in the process. And I think that that's a that's just a useful rubric to keep in mind, if you are part of the medical community or part of the wellness community, how much are you asking for people's trust and what are you providing in return and how much of their dignity is being upheld in the process? 

Sarah [00:33:51] And I think the other part for me beyond sort of my own individual choices and individual conversations. I really want to push, you know, me and my people to think about if I am trying to control something, how could we work together to make it better for everybody? That Beautiful question Anne Helen Petersen ask, how can I make it better for myself by making it better for everybody? In ways that respect the tools that we have gotten right throughout human history, like, oh, I don't know, peer-reviewed studies and legislation. Instead of influencer campaigns and, you know, corporate retreats, right? Like the tools that are the best we have available to us. Not perfect, but the best we have available to us to sort of address real issues of distrust, real issues of oppression, real issues of health for everybody and not just for myself. 

Beth [00:34:57] And I just have to remember that we're not going to agree on what the best tools available are. We're not going to get unanimity on that. I truly don't know whether we should be mandating COVID 19 vaccines. Any time soon. I really struggle with the employer mandate from the Biden administration, I do not struggle at all with private entities that require vaccines in order to receive services. But I do struggle with government mandates. I don't I don't know about school and COVID vaccines. I am very worried about these sort of anti anti-vax movement where legislators across the country are looking at rolling back like any vaccine requirements for a public school. I think that takes us to a really dangerous place. I worry that we will regret those decisions and those movements in pretty short order and in pretty dramatically devastating fashion. But I think some of these questions are hard and that they should be hard and that talking to each other about them and vigorously debating them in good faith and asking questions and doing our best to answer those questions and keeping a healthy dose of I don't know where that's the truth is really valuable. 

Sarah [00:36:10] Well, we thank you for being with us as we ask these questions. Obviously, two episodes, even particularly long episodes, are not enough to tackle all the questions and concerns and threads wrapped up inside the wellness industry. We look forward to engaging with all of you through email and on our social media platforms about the things we missed and the things you still want to talk about are your stories about being inside these systems. Those are always our favorite parts of these conversations is when they continue after the episodes are over. Thank you for sticking with us through this particularly long conversation. 

Beth [00:36:57] Sarah, outside of politics, we're going to go a little consumerist today ourselves because we have some offerings for all of you that would both support our work here and we hope are good value ads to you and the Pantsuit Politics fans in your lives. 

Sarah [00:37:14] Yeah, we're thrilled to announce first that we are now on Cameo. We need it just as we needed a platform to wrangle all the birthday, milestone, different celebratory requests we get for people. Can you imagine such and such person is a great thing and can you do something for them? So the answer is now yes. Just head over to cameo. And we are on there and we will be doing personalized messages. We've sent one. It was a big hit. They're super fun to do, so you can go download the app and check out Cameo. If you want us to wish a happy birthday or a best holiday available to you, to the fan in your life. 

Beth [00:37:47] I'm going to be honest and tell you all that I did not want to do this. I have been the hold-up on Cameo. I did not want to do it. And when we did our first one, it was so fun. And what was really nice is that when we were trying to just manage these requests as they came in, because we didn't have a system for it was kind of like, maybe I can say hi to this person, but I don't really know what to say. I don't have a lot of information. Cameo just had such a good process of letting people tell you, here's who the person is. Here are some things about them that are important. This is what you should know to do this well. It's fantastic, and I regret being such a holdout on it because it really was a nice way to interact. Also, we have new Pantsuit Politics merch, new sweatshirts and hats and stationery. Stationery is something that you all have been asking for for a while. All of that is now on our website. Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. It is much easier to find it is a better interface. We are really excited about the new designs. So go to our website and check that stuff out if you'd like a long-sleeved T-shirt or a baseball cap that says Pantsuit Politics. 

Sarah [00:38:54] We also have our holiday gift guide still up on our website. We'll put the link to that in the show notes where we talked about all our gifts that are go-tos for the people in our lives. So we hope that you'll check that out and it'll spark some ideas for your family and friends. I think that's it. I think that's all we have to offer, right? 

Beth [00:39:10] Well, we're adding to that gift guide, some partnerships. There are a few vendors who have made some Pantsuit Politics inspired merch that will add to that holiday gift guide. So there's like an affiliate relationship with us for those products, and we hope that you enjoy them. And we're always happy to partner with other small businesses to make something that we think that you all were really enjoying. So have the best holiday shopping available to you. We hope that you have enjoyed this week of hopefully time spent with people that you love and some smooth travels and we will be back in your ears on Tuesday. Until then, enjoy the weekend. 

[00:39:58] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:40:04] Megan Hart and Maggie Penton are our community engagement managers. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:40:10] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:40:14] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, Danny Ozment, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy Whited.

Beth [00:40:53] Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller. 

[00:41:04] That is why we had a doctor from Johns Hopkin on this show. Did I say that right? Johns Hopkins, Johns Hopkins, Johns Hopkins? Hang on, let me just check. Now I’m in my head about it. Johns Hopkins both have an “s”. That's right. OK. 

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