Things We’re Haunted By

Topics Discussed

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Episode Resources

TRUMP SOCIAL NETWORK

KITCHENS AND CULTURE

Transcript

Beth [00:00:00] And so when I take that lens and I think about the way that we all try to have the right kitchen and hold on to the right kitchen as this fixed ideal that I need to get to in order to be a person who has it together, it just makes me realize how much we aim for the in-between of that spectrum that we we put so many resources, so much money, so much time, so much energy in just being able to ride the middle between the real goodness and the real suffering. It's almost like a way to say, well, at least here in my house, whatever else is going on here in my house, we're going to sit at our big island in the middle of these gleaming white cabinets with a refrigerator disguised as one of those cabinets, and we're going to keep some control in this world that spins. 

Sarah [00:00:57] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:59] And this Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:01:02] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:01:16] Hello, everyone, we're so delighted that you're joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics, this is our Halloween episode, and that might sound like not a thing for a news and politics podcast, but trust us, we're going to work it out. Our theme today is things that haunt us. And you will absolutely want to stay with us through the end of the show because an hour outside of politics segment, it's trick or treat time. We're going to treat everyone with a truly overwhelming amount of fun knows about things happening with Pantsuit Politics in 2022. Before we get started, we just want to thank you so much if you became a premium member during our drive. We want to thank you if you joined us for last night's premium member costume party and if you love live events, you are in luck because we have another one coming up. 

Sarah [00:01:58] Yes, we got over 4000 patrons, we're now officially past the 4000 threshold, thank you to every single person who made that possible. We love having you as a part of our community. And yeah, on November 18th, we're going to have our first annual holiday huddle. This is so big time for Pantsuit Politics every year. The holidays are a big time. It's stressful. We're getting back together with people. It's really stressful this year because we're getting back together for possibly the first time in two years or we're getting together in new and different ways. And so we're going to be talking about how to handle those tough situations, tough political conversations with their families. Tough boundary violations with loved ones over the holiday season. We're going to do live Q&A. You can get your tickets now by following the link in the show notes. And plus, if you can't join us for the actual live event, a ticket will still get you access to the recording for up to seven days after the event, so you can enjoy it on your own schedule. 

Beth [00:02:52] So we would love for you to join us for the holiday huddle and up next, we are very excited to talk with you about things that haunt us. 

Beth [00:03:15] OK, Sarah, as we think about things that haunt us, probably the top of the list is that the 2020 election just never ends, never goes away. And the latest iteration from former twice impeached banned from Twitter President Trump is that he has launched the idea of his new social media company, I say the idea because we don't have a new social media from President Trump yet, we have the idea that he's going to have any social media company. He tells us that he's launching Truth Social, which is available for preorder in the Apple App Store. I've never heard a preorder from for an app, but here we are. And he plans to begin a beta launch in November, with a nationwide rollout anticipated in 2022's  first quarter. 

Sarah [00:03:59] The easy, hot take is just make fun of it, which I'm not I'm not opposed to, but the sometimes hot takes around. We're going to get into hot topics that haunt us in the next segment, but I think it's easy to just make fun of it, make fun of him because of the blog adjacent debacle that was from the desk of Donald J. Trump, or to roll our eyes at just how bad he wants to be out there tweeting again. And he can't. But I think there's like way more going on here, particularly as as you hinted to in the way it is launching. That, I think is fascinating, horrifying, interesting and important. 

Beth [00:04:38] Truth Social is being launched by Trump Media and Technology Group, which currently makes zero products and provide zero services. 

Sarah [00:04:46] Mm hmm. 

Beth [00:04:46] There is a website where you can give them your email address to receive an invitation. There is a slide deck presenting Trump Media and Technology Group as a competitor to Twitter, Facebook, Netflix, Disney Plus, CNN, iHeart, perhaps eventually Amazon Web Services and Stripe in the long term. So they're dreaming high. 

Sarah [00:05:07] Big dreams. 

Beth [00:05:08] But today there is nothing like the kindest way to put it is that they are pre product and pre-revenue today and in this state, Trump Media and Technology Group is merging with Digital World Acquisition Corp. 

Sarah [00:05:21] and Digital World Acquisition Corp. is a SPAC. What's a SPAC? That's a special purpose acquisition company. You've probably seen it and articles about NFTs and Meme Stocks and all the things. You use a special purpose acquisition company to acquire or merge with another company so that it can raise money through an initial public offering. That's all. The company is a vehicle for another business to raise money, according to The Wall Street Journal. You put some money into the SPAC, and creators are allowed to put 20 percent of the shares at ultra cheap prices. When the SPAC merges with the private company. So in this case, when Digital World Acquisition Corp. merges with Trump media. Those creator shares transfer into a sizable position in the new company, so they make several times their initial investment because the creators get in so cheap, they're almost always assured that return. However, individual investors aren't. This sounds like a scam, Beth. 

Beth [00:06:21] It doesn't get better from here. So the people behind Digital World Acquisition Corp. are CEO Patrick Orlando, a former derivatives trader at Deutsche Bank. Remember, Deutsche Bank has a long history with Donald Trump. CFO Louis Arlene's Braganza, a curiously a member of Brazil's National Congress and five board members. We don't have a lot of information right now. We will have down the road because when you start to do things like an initial public offering, the pesky SEC comes along and asks you to disclose a lot about your business. And Matt Levine from Bloomberg, in a just wild ride of a newsletter about this said that we can all just bet on multiple lawsuits against Trump and multiple SEC complaints based on how all of this goes down. So we have Digital World Acquisition Corp. with zero products and zero services merging with Trump Media and Technology Group, which also has zero products and services in order to issue stock. And last week, the stock price implied a value of several billion dollars. 

Sarah [00:07:28] OK. OK. Which in a way, I just take devil's advocate since it's Halloween episode makes sense because really what they're valuing is the strength of his support among his people. Right? How many people will follow him no matter what? How many people will do what he says, no matter what they haven't said? If Truth Social will require a membership fee, that'll be interesting to see. I don't know if they're the grift is just aimed at the stockholders or also the members of the social media platform. It'll be interesting to find out, but you know, it's not wrong that there are people that will follow him no matter what. I don't know what the value of that following is, and I think that's what they're trying to place a number on through this offering. 

Beth [00:08:16] And I think that that is what everybody needs to understand. We are not predicting the future value of a social media platform created by the former president. We are talking about what could happen with this stock. This is so far looking like a meme stock play. It's kind of like the post reality economy, which Trump certainly didn't create, but what a way for him to jump in and get in on that action. 

Sarah [00:08:48] Well, and there's a part of me that's like, Great, let's do this. Let's let him do this and exploit it for all the money it's worth because I think he needs money that'll be great. And maybe that will distract him, and he can focus on that instead of running for office again. I'm worried that though the hold on this audience is preconditioned on him running again, right, because the second the second, he says, I'm not ready in 2024, the little sort of hold, he has on this audience and particularly his whatever hole he has left on the national media evaporates right then it's done and he knows that. That's what I'm worried about is that this this grift will be, you know, tied up with his decision to run for office. And so now his decision to run for office will be tied up with the ability to make money. And then what it already is, right? Like his campaigns raise so much money. And I don't think any of us believe that they're just going to campaign expenses and that there's other stuff going on there. But. I don't know. There's a part of me that's like, oh, goody, maybe he'll just do this and then there's probably like, now it's it's linked to him running in 2024. 

Beth [00:10:04] Even beyond that, I've been thinking about how we said a lot during his presidency that Trump makes people more of what they are and accelerates a lot of trends. And I think this is another one we have known for several years now. That sort of making money on paper has had really devastating effects for lots of our economy over a long period of years now we've come to understand that. And this is an accelerated way to make money on paper, he's not the only person doing it. I mean, one of the major problems in the tech world right now is that lots of companies are pre product and pre revenue out there, raising lots and lots of cash from real people. And I don't know. I just wonder if this will lead to greater regulation in this area, if it will lead to an education for the population because so many people will put money. And I mean, it's being reported that Marjorie Taylor Greene has bought a bunch of this stock and has probably already lost quite a bit of money based on the timing of when she bought in and what the stock is doing now, it's losing some steam. Now there's a company that shorted it called Iceberg Research that said it sees only risk for investors based on Trump's track record. It said at current price, renegotiation is likely to keep more of the merged company for him. SPAC holders don't own a piece of this project yet Trump has leverage, not them. And with that kind of discussion happening pretty publicly, you know lots of this on Twitter. I don't know. Maybe, maybe we'll learn something. Maybe we'll get some new laws because of all of this. I'm just interested in the long term effect on our economy because I do think there's something about meme stocks and NFTs and cryptocurrency that we just haven't been able to put our fingers on yet in terms of understanding. Does something need to be real to have value? And I don't know the answer to that, but I'm interested in continuing to ask the question. We're going to leave that for now, but I am certain that we will be talking about it again. And up next, we'll talk about other things that haunt us. Sarah and I have some real ghosts to share with you in this segment. 

Beth [00:12:25] All right, Sarah, when we first started talking about this, you suggested that we just separately consider something that continues to come back in our minds over and over again. So what do you have for us? 

Sarah [00:12:37] Well, I have two editorials that I wrote one in high school and one in college, the high school, one I've talked about on the show before. Which is me calling for President Clinton's resignation. I don't know if it haunts me. It's more funny after I've made such a hard turn. I no longer feel responsible for that take. But I will. I will put a link to it. And so we can all enjoy and laugh along as I moralize and call for President Clinton's resignation. The other one, though, I've never I don't know if I've ever talked about it because it really bothers me. And now it's silly to think about a college editorial bothering you. But this by this point, I was a a good and true Democrat. It was in March 2003, March 2003. For anybody who lived during those times was the peak Dixie Chick controversy. Now the Chicks. This is after Natalie Maines had made her comment about being ashamed that the president was from Texas. I was a devoted and still am devoted chicks fan, and I wrote this editorial. I'm going to read a little bit of it to you. I love the Dixie Chicks from their first release: I Can Love You Better, I've been a huge fan. I've seen them in concert once and have tickets to see them again in May. I listen to Goodbye Earl when I'm angry and Home when I'm sad. What I don't do is look to them for political opinions or foreign policy Expertize. To be terribly honest, I don't really care what Emily, Marty or Natalie thinks about politics, and I didn't think any one else did either. Boy, was I wrong, and I took this posture of like, they play the fiddle. Why do you care? And I just hate it. I'm so ashamed of it. I know it's silly, but like, I feel like I abandoned them. I feel like it was a bad take because you know what I was trying to do was defend them and just be like, Leave them alone. Why do you care? They played. Let them play music. Leave them alone. But the truth is like, I did care what they thought. I still care what they think. And I think this I was trying to defend them. But I think it's a hot take that happens a lot with celebrities, which is they're just celebrities, but they're not just celebrities. Celebrities are where we work out a lot of our politics and our values. Stress and anxieties and cultural conversations I've learned this from and Helen Petersen. She's taught me so much about this, and I just look back at that and I think, Oh man, what a bad take to turn on these women he loved and say, Well, I don't really care what they think and you shouldn't either. And so that that is that is a hot take that I took too soon. Because it was soon it was March. I mean, she had only said it like March at the beginning of March. It's like peak controversy. It's a hot take. I really, really regret said in paper for all those collectors of early OT Transylvania ramblers out there. 

Beth [00:15:10] Do you think that this stays on your mind more because you have learned so much and changed and grown in your position about how celebrities influence us? Or because you think this problem continues to persist, like we're still having the same discussion and a lot of ways, and we still hear people say constantly like and it's less the Dixie Chicks and more influencers  now right. I don't come to you for politics. I come to yet or furniture recommendations. 

Sarah [00:15:42] Well, I mean, I think it is both that yes, that attitude persists. And I really, really dislike it. And I think it is willfully ignorant to think that celebrities and their takes don't matter. Like, you don't know, we don't get to have it both ways. They're not products, they're people. And so we elevate them for a reason. We, you know, talk about their personal lives and their choices for a reason because we are trying to decide how we feel about politics or how we feel about adultery or how we feel about, you know, being nonbinary, whatever the case is, whatever the decision they're making, making it on a public stage gives us the ability to talk about that. It's their status that sort of elevates the choices in a way and gives us all permission to think about how we feel about it. And it's just so consistent throughout time. That's to me what is so silly about, you know, putting forth the position of like, well, who cares? Everybody cares. We've always cared, you know, like, there's not a moment in history where people didn't care about elite people or celebrities or, you know, powerful people and the choices they make or their downfalls or their public mistakes, like that's just that's never been a thing. And so and I think the other thing that really bothers me about it is I just feel like I turned on them in a moment. Again, this is silly. This was a college newspaper they did not need like, Natalie was not reading the Rambler. But there's just a part of me that's like, I feel like I'm pretty good at moments of like that of like reading my gut and staying true even in really unpopular positions. Because the rest of the article I go on to say, like, I don't support the war either. That was really unpopular. I was like when I was trying to find this article, I was looking through and realizing like we had students standing on the street, like supporting the troops. At this time, like just a bunch of college students decided to stay in on the side of Broadway and raise signs in support of the troops. And I was like, Man, I don't even remember that. But it sure is indicative of like, how intense that time period was and how we were all debating it and how it was such a big deal. And so it's not like I was. I was worried about being judged for my position on the war. I was pretty open and upfront about it and I said, You know, the rest of the article I just talk about, like, don't get swept up in the fervor. Like, it's more it's more complicated than that. I just wish I'd said, like, she's helping us see that and we should. We should recognize that. And, you know, praise her instead of turning on her because she's forcing us to look at the fact that maybe everybody doesn't support the war. 

Beth [00:18:09] Well, I hope that you're fully forgiven yourself for turning on the Dixie Chicks in this moment. 

Sarah [00:18:14] I don't know. I feel like I might need their personal forgiveness, like I just might need to be like, I love you. I'm sorry, Natalie. Be like, It's OK. 

Beth [00:18:20] But there is is something important. We often talk to college students when we're on campuses speaking about media and about news and how we have graceful political conversations and we hear from college students this anxiety about voting wrong. Hmm. And and I think that listen, I'm a walking example of changing your position all the time. I've changed my party registration. I will never vote for Mitch McConnell again, but I have voted for him before, so I've gotten all kinds of things wrong. I've gotten some things, maybe not wrong, but decided them in a totally different context and my life and would make a different choice today. And it is easy to be haunted by past bad takes. And I also think that until we're able to release ourselves from being haunted by this past bad takes, it can be kind of paralyzing in terms of your ability to continue to put yourself out there. I know that you do not feel and... 

Sarah [00:19:17] I do not feel paralyzed. 

Beth [00:19:19] ...of putting yourself out there again. But I want to mention that because some of us do you kind of keep the score for ourselves and have to release that really intentionally to continue to participate, especially in public spaces? 

Sarah [00:19:30] Yeah. And I think that that's what's hard. I did. I got an Indiogram, any thought email that was like ones feel personally responsible for being wrong, like they like, they take it hard, so I do have to watch that and I'm worried that like people will then see me as having bad takes. And there's a lot of anxiety about that right now in the in the year of Our Lord 2021 doing a job on the internet. Like, there's always this concern of like, I'm going to make the wrong group mad or I'm going to say the wrong thing. And then there's going to be this not even like cancelization, which I think is a word that gets thrown around too much. But this idea that like you're no longer worth listening to and look, we all want to be listened to, we all want to be heard. And I think that's like sort of the anxiety. But I think, you know. With the celebrity angle and the idea of like you only have status in one place like we can, we can compartmentalize the status you have. I do think social media has like sort of both elevated that conversation and helped us see status more clearly. But also, maybe the anxiety surrounding that, that celebrity status even more intense. It's been interesting that, like you know, since I wrote that in 2003, like celebrities have so much more control over what they say. Like they can go to Instagram directly, they can go to Twitter directly, they can post their notes apology, right? Like they're no longer at the mercy of some of these gatekeepers that were guarding their image and guarding their messaging. And so I think that's changed even more this this idea we have, I think it's open them up to more criticism. I think it's made it more personal in a way. So there that people feel even more free to attack them personally. But I do think it's important. I think, you know, I love celebrity culture. I love celebrities. I think it's really important. I think it is how we work out so much stuff about our own precarity, about how we feel about our economy, about how we feel about gender and race. And like, you know, godspeed to all of them who become the surface on which we work all these things out. 

Beth [00:21:36] There's been a flattening out to because of social media, right? There are a lot more people who have some experience with some kind of celebrity. In a way, if you have any number of followers, but people who you know are reading what you write and looking at your pictures, then you have that experience of, ooh, I could get this wrong. I have a bad take. I could have somebody say, I didn't come here to hear what you have to say about the build back better agenda. I came here to see pictures of your dog. You know, I think everybody is having to navigate more of what you wrote about with celebrities then. And I think that's both healthy because it does help us see celebrities as more multi-dimensional politicians as more multi-dimensional. I worry that it also spreads all that anxiety about getting it wrong around. 

Sarah [00:22:24] I just wanted to stop being consumption like I just want to. I don't think there's an there's an aspect of consumption that's never going to go away. The consumption is what made them celebrities. But it is complicated to ask people to hold both the the consumption of their public image and the reality that they are not a product, that they are not a consumable product, that they are a human being. And that's really hard. I think that that's that we're getting better. And and simultaneously worse all the time? 

Beth [00:22:50] Well, one reason that I don't hold a lot of anxiety around changing my mind about something or having gotten something wrong or knowing that all the hours that we spend sharing our thoughts with people, I will get something wrong, at least for some significant portion of the audience. I will I will step in it somewhere. I'll say something that they think is the worst take. I don't stay and knots about that because I trust that we have a relationship here and so that you don't lose the relationship because of one sentence or because of one idea. I don't know, you know, what spaces there is a relationship and verses, it is kind of I'm a consumer. I come here for your music or I I don't know where those lines cross or how they get established. 

Sarah [00:23:31] I have a relationship with The Chicks. They don't know it, but I do. I bought their first album on cassette tape. OK? Like we, we are in a relationship and have been for 20 plus years. I adore them and I think that's why I like still carry this around with me is like my my my one stumble. And in a pretty pristine record as a fan. So what, what haunts you? What are what's your haunting? 

Beth [00:23:59] Well, I wanted to think about what have I read or what do I continue to click on that? I just can't get out of my head, even though I know that it's not particularly helpful to me. And it is kitchen articles. I read everything that is written that I can find about kitchens. I read about the Nancy Meyers kitchens. 

Sarah [00:24:18] Yes.

Beth [00:24:18] I read about the kitchens of the wealthy. I have probably read the New York Times piece from late August on hidden refrigerators ten times. I loved Tracy McMillan Cotton's piece about the concept home, the COVID concept home several times because she writes about double refrigerators in that piece about how every home is going to have two fridges post-COVID. I'm just obsessed with the way we think about our kitchens, and I think it's for a bunch of reasons. I love to cook, and so that's part of it, but I definitely don't read these articles looking for like equipment advice. I feel like these pieces are a signal in how we think about the way we signal to our families and to all the people who will enter our homes and to all the people who will see our homes as the background on Instagram or Facebook or wherever we're posting about our lives. It's a signal of how together are we? Where have I arrived in my life? And I don't know, I'm just really interested in the fact that at a time when we have so many options available to us, we consolidate around the sameness of a lot of trends. And for a very long time, that meant everybody had white cabinets, right? And everybody had white courts or marble countertops or granite before that. I'm glad to see the kitchen design is starting to get layered again, and there there is kind of more pattern and color coming back into it. But even just the island idea that every kitchen needs this massive island in the middle of it, I'm just really interested in what that says about us. 

Sarah [00:26:04] Let me go on record as saying the island size is getting out of control. I just want to go on record as saying the islands are getting too big everybody. Even though I am a devoted Nancy Meyers acolyte, I want to live inside of a Nancy Meyers' film. But take those islands, the islands seem to me to have come about like when the food channel got really big right, like Food Network because it was like, Oh, we're all performing in our own little cooking show. Even people who don't cook. But again, this is this I listen I love home design. I eat every word of these articles up. The COVID concept home, yes, please, all day. I even went in was like, Are there other concept homes? Was there like a 9/11 concept? I want all the concept homes. I think design is fascinating because honestly, it's the same thing with celebrities. We're working out status, we're working out how we feel about things we are putting on our walls or on our counters or on our floors signals about what's important to us, how how we rank. And I think it's all so fascinating. And I think the idea that it's just like a shallow pursuit is so short sighted. And I think again, there's also a gendered component to this. There is a gendered component to how celebrities and home design are seen because it is primarily women who consume this material who purchase the products. And I reject that. I think they are both very important and I think like I totally agree the Nancy Meyers article or the Hidden Fridges. Yeah. I want to read that stuff all day long because it's so fascinating. It is both fascinating to me, like how it starts at the truly elite levels and how it trickles down into the masses and how it's interpreted. Yes, please. All day. Listen, all I want to do in life is have a conversation about status that makes Tracy proud. I think status is endlessly fascinating. 

Beth [00:27:56] It also just made me realize you and I have talked a lot lately about the kind of everything's a dumpster fire posture that so many of us have adopted for a while and how badly we want out of that. Because if you zoom out on this moment, there is unfathomable goodness happening and unspeakable suffering and lots of in-between, and that's just how it's always been and how it will always be. And so when I take that lens and I think about the way that we all try to have the right kitchen and hold on to the right kitchen as this fixed ideal that I need to get to in order to be a person who has it together, it just makes me realize how much we aim for the in-between of that spectrum that we we put so many resources, so much money, so much time, so much energy in just being able to ride the middle between the real goodness and the real suffering. It's almost like a way to say, well, at least here in my house, whatever else is going on here in my house, we're going to sit at our big island in the middle of these gleaming white cabinets with a refrigerator disguised as one of those cabinets. And we're going to keep some control in this world that spins and I don't know, I just think it's really fascinating. 

Sarah [00:29:20] Well, it's classic. It's classic, you know, individualism, right? I control what I control and so I can I can assert my status and I can, you know, have a perfect time to come down to even if the outside is a dumpster fire. And look, I don't necessarily think that's a moral failing. I think that's a natural human response. I do think that, you know, there is a place for us to sort of rise above. And I think that's why I think I'm so incredibly grateful for the work of people like Anne Helen and Tracy who say, like, No, no, see what's going on here, see what's underneath the surface. Because while I don't, I think that's a natural human response. I don't I don't ever want to end there. I don't ever want to be like, Why I made the hot tag? I'm moving on. I want to keep curious. I want to keep looking at like, But why are we obsessed with this? Or Why am I interested in this? Why is this appealing to me? Is there a bigger role to play for me beyond just controlling my individual environment, right? Like because I'm connected to other people? And, you know, watching how status flows means that it's flowing away from some people. You know, some people are suffering because of the way status is kept from them, and I don't ever want to be blind to that. And so. You have to to look at even the places where status seems silly. Be it a refrigerator or a celebrity hot take, I think, to keep to keep your eyes on the prize, to stay curious and to watch that flow, to see the matrix, if you will. 

Beth [00:30:48] I put in my list of articles for our show, notes this article about why everyone has the same hair. Because among women like me, white middle class women who are around 40. Everybody has the same hair and it is hair that is totally unavailable to me, the sort of blown out, but then curled or a little wavy book that kind of has that effortless vibe, but would take me hours to create and I think is not effortless for anybody, for real. And so I googled one day just like, why does everyone have this hair? And I found an article from Vox from 2016. So it's a five year old article about how that became the dominant way to style women's hair on television because it provides continuity between different scenes, straight hair, if it gets out of place, you can really tell they would have to start filming more often to fix it. It looks good from every angle like it's a camera trick this hairstyle and it is very flattering on lots and lots of people. And if you have this hair, I love you. I'm not trying to make you feel bad about having this hair. I just want to, like, step back in again. Kind of like you said, Sarah. See The Matrix. How did we get here? Where do these things flow from? What do they mean for us? What does it mean for me to be a person who is never going to have the hair? I don't know. I just think about this stuff all the time. 

Sarah [00:32:10] I remember that article from 2016 vividly, and it's not surprising that that hairstyle had such staying power. If it's photography friendly through the rise of influencers and the people who are, you know, using photography for everything and taking pictures of everything. I had the hair for a while. I love the hair, not mad at the hair, but I am thrilled, thrilled that the new generation is like, We're done. I haven't read an article the other day that was like, Is blond hair chooky? I'm like, What are we having this conversation about everybody can stop dying their hair blond and just have natural brown hair. I thought that was fascinating. Listen, I am living in hair TikTok now. I love her. Especially like vintage hair TikTok, where they like pin curl and do all these like shaggy, wavy, feathery, like from the 70s hairstyles. I'm here for it. I love the I love this generation. I want to kiss them on the mouth for shaking us out of this like place we were stuck in with, you know, the barrel curls. And I love it. I'm like trying to grow up my own curtain bangs right now. I'm here for the 70s, bring it back. And I think that's again. It's just it's so interesting how we get like stuck in places and how new generations come around and like, question it. They're like, We don't need know because it's there. They're uniquely suited, right? Because they're not wholly and completely in the race or status, because their status is gained by rejecting things and by, like trying something new. And they're the new generation. So the status comes from sort of pushing against that traditional thing. Look, they've already got us like questioning skinny jeans and the beach waves and blond hair. What's next? I love it. Let's do it 

Beth [00:33:51] Well. And I wonder how social media will accelerate that rejection because it is boring to scroll and see the same kitchen. It is boring to scroll and see the same hair or the same fashion, the same interior design. So I'm hoping that these tools that lead us all to do the same things also now will lead us beyond. And I think that's happening not just generationally, but because esthetically we're we're walking away from some of the tools when they become too static. 

Sarah [00:34:24] That reminds me of an article I still think about about how all the coffee shops around the world are starting to look the same. Like they're all that Instagram esthetic, right? The the exposed brick and the sort of modern farmhouse and there and how no matter where you are, you know, you're in Japan, you're going to find a coffee house that looks like that. You're in South America, you're going to found a coffee house that looks like that and how creepy it is to start to see that that universal Instagram esthetic seep into to all these spaces, I think you're right. I hope that we are, you know, turning away from that and we're going to have space. But it's also, you know, social media is a is a status delivery system, the likes of which we have never known. And so it's always going to be there saying, like, where you want the next big thing you want, the thing that people are going to walk in and realize like you're in front of the train or you're right on the train or this is it. And that is another form of status. 

Beth [00:35:18] And I think all of this haunts our politics because so much of what's happened around vaccines, for example, has been an explicit. Person who looks like you in the kitchen, that looks like the one that you want telling you, this is the message that I want you to land on around your acoba decisions, right? Or this is the this is the person I want you to vote for. I mean, this all happens. I'm sure that I participate in this too, right? But it happens like, Hey, we're the same like here, something that we connect on. And so I want you to connect with me and follow me down this path. And I think these visual cues have gotten stronger and stronger, especially for people my age and older. Because I agree with you, the younger generation is a totally different place on a lot of this. But I think women in my age are still consolidating around a lot of a lot of these ideas that, like we do, need to kind of follow a particular path. And that path has gotten explicitly political on Instagram. 

Sarah [00:36:25] I do think that social media and particularly the last two years, have helped us abandon the idea that, like politics, is this rational policy calculation. And I do hope that we're seeing the way that status and emotion flow through these conversations motivate us to do certain things, motivate us to protect the tribe or reject the tribe because it is. It's it's just this undercurrent that's running through celebrity culture, kitchen culture, political culture. It's always there. 

Beth [00:36:56] And I think it's almost been helpful to me preparing for this conversation to think of these things as ghosts. Just remember that they do sort of hang invisibly around. Sometimes they make themselves known more than others. But there is kind of a choice to see them or not see them and engage with them or not engage with them. And I like your framework of seeing the matrix around this, too, and that's something I'm going to keep in mind. Next up, we have all of the treats for you, so stick around. 

Beth [00:37:40] Sarah, we have three exciting things to talk about. Which would you like to share first? 

Sarah [00:37:47] I think that we should start. With the announcement that we have both a title and a cover for our new book coming out on May 3rd, 2022, 

Beth [00:38:00] The title of our book is 'Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided about Basically Everything'. It is exactly what it sounds like. It's a follow up to our first book. In our first book we said, Please have a grace filled political conversations. Let's tell you how that book is 'I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening' if you haven't gotten it yet and would still like to read it. But this book we are saying you had grace filled political conversations and it didn't fix everything, now what? We had Covid. Now what? We have the Trump administration. Now what? And I hope that this book feels to you the way that it felt to us writing it. This book is much more personal. It's much more relationship based. It's a lot more like the podcast than 'I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening', and we're just really excited to share it with you, and you can see the cover of it today on Instagram Pantsuit Politics. 

Sarah [00:38:53] Our second announcement about 2022, is that we are currently in talks with a TV production company. To make a TV show next year, hopefully, if someone would like to make it with us, we have to sell it first, but that's where we are in the process and we couldn't keep it a secret one minute longer. 

Beth [00:39:16] The production company that we're working with could not be more wonderful. I was terrified of this process, terrified and they're terrific and they have made me feel really comfortable. Like if this happens, it's something that we could do that we could do well, that we could do in a way that feels right to us and hopefully to all of you too. And so we're working on it. We're we're working on refining the concept, and in January, we'll pitch it to networks and we'll just cross our fingers and see what happens. 

Sarah [00:39:47] We're holding all loosely, you know, hopefully somebody will purchase it and we'll get to make it. But if not, we love what we do here. This is all a bonus, and this is what everybody tells us is the attitude with which you should approach TV, like if it happens great, if it doesn't not, because if you're too hungry, it can be a heartbreaker. So we are working on our concept. We're about to film a little thing, call it a sizzle, which is kind of a silly word, but I'm going to go with it to show sort of the us together and what the TV show would look like. It would be, you know, obviously unscripted sort of a reality show idea. We've been calling it Queer Eye for Politics in our heads, so we're really, really, really excited. 

Beth [00:40:28] And then our last but certainly not least bit of good news to share with you as the our managing director, Alise is going to be a mom in the spring. We're so excited for Alise and for Kevin, her husband. And obviously, there will be lots of change around these parts when Alise is not with us every day when she takes her leave. And so we'll keep in touch with you about who to contact and how to get your questions answered and all the miracles that Alise works for us every day behind the scenes. But we wanted to share that wonderful news with all of you, and I hope you send her very good vibes. 

Sarah [00:41:05] It's going to be a very busy 2022 in other words. 

Beth [00:41:08] And we can't wait for it and we appreciate you being with us through all kinds of fun and excitement and change. We appreciate you joining us today. We hope to see you in real time at our holiday huddle on November 18th. Do not forget to check out the show notes for a link to those tickets. Have the best Halloween available to you? We'll see you back here on Tuesday. 

Beth: [00:41:40] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Alise Napp is our managing director.

Sarah: Megan Hart and Maggie Penton are our community engagement managers. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names):  Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, Danny Ozment, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Karin True, Amy Whited, Emily Holladay, Katy Stigers, Nick and Alysa Vilelli.

Beth: Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller. 

Beth [00:42:42] And we are very excited to talk to you about things that haunt us today. I wish we had some scary sound effects. 

Sarah [00:42:48] I bet we do. Wait, does just say it like we have the sound effects. Simeon has a sound effects. Say it again.I trust him. He's got it. (Scary Sound Effects)




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