The Aftermath of the Capitol Siege

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Sarah and Beth share their thoughts on the attempted coup by violent domestic terrorists who stormed the Capitol building in Washington, D.C. They discuss the sense of entitlement amongst some Americans, the needed consequences of yesterday's actions, and where we go from here.

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Transcript:

Sarah: (00:00:22) This is Sarah

Beth: [00:00:22] And Beth, 

Sarah: [00:00:23] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

Beth: [00:00:25] The home of grace-filled political conversations.

Adam Schiff: [00:26:06] No constitution can protect us. Right doesn't matter any more. And you know, you can't trust this president to do what's right for this country. You can trust he will do what's right for Donald Trump. He'll do it now. He's done it before. He'll do it for the next several months. He'll do it in the election if he's allowed to. This is why if you find him guilty, you must find that he should be removed.

Beth: [00:01:03] Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Pantsuit Politics. We know that it is a critical historic moment that we're all living through together. And we so appreciate that you trust us with your time and attention as we walk through this time. Okay, we today are going to talk about what's happening right now.

We're recording on Monday afternoon. We're going to discuss what we understand about what happened at the Capitol on Wednesday and what has since unfolded and what consequences are being implemented and discussed in both the public and private sectors. This episode will not be formatted the way that we normally format our episodes, because there is just so much going on and it is so consequential.

 Before we get started, we do want to remind you that if you want to understand how impeachment works, and we'll talk more about the actions being taken toward impeachment in a second, we have a five things you need to know about impeachment from [00:02:00] April 2019, we will link it in the show notes.

It is one of our premiere episodes where you can walk through and just hear the facts about how the process is supposed to work. And we hope that's valuable to you right now. The voice that you heard at the top of this episode was representative Adam Schiff in his closing remarks during the first impeachment trial and we thought that it was a good starting place as we think about what we have known for a long time about the president. 

Sarah: [00:02:24] Yeah. This came as a result of one of our conversations where I just exclaimed Adam Schiff tried to tell us. He tried to tell us, I think about him all the time. I think about George Will's saying president Trump has no bottom and we are seeing that on complete and total display now and particularly leading up to January 6th and the day since.

Beth: [00:02:56] So, what do we know today? We know that four [00:03:00] people who attended the save America March and proceeded into the Capitol, as part of the domestic terrorist group, have died. We know that a Capitol police officer was murdered by those domestic terrorists and we know that another Capitol police officer died by suicide over the weekend.

And about that particular officer we've heard from several listeners who actually know him and have talked about what an impressive and wonderful, loving human being he was. 

Sarah: [00:03:31] So that is particularly heartbreaking. And what we've also just gained greater understanding is how much threat those Capitol police officers were under at different points during the protest.

You know, Chris Hayes put together a package and it was basically titled it was worse than we thought. You know, when we saw the man with the, basically a costume on, [00:04:00] parading around and even the horror of watching other protesters sort of with their feet kicked back on desks inside the Capitol complex.

Like that was so horrifying watching them in the, in the speaker's Dyess, watching them walk around with stolen goods. Like that was just so shocking and horrific to watch them breach the Capitol and come in. But what we've learned since then is that you know, this sort of over the top, ridiculous behavior is just the tip of the iceberg and that there were people in those crowds who had plans to do really violent, horrific acts.

 You know, from the beginning you and I saw the photos of the two men with the flex cuffs, with the, the basically giant zip ties that people, particularly law enforcement officers use when they're doing mass arrests. And there were two individuals in the Senate [00:05:00] chambers that photos went around pretty quickly and it was, you know, I remember texting a friend the next morning saying like, that's what really scares me.

 The guys dressed in full tactical gear with flex cuffs really terrifies me. What if they'd been there a little sooner and you know, one of the protestors that was killed by a police officer, Ashley Babbitt, now that we've seen videos of her death, we see that they were really close. There were representatives right at the end of the hallway at the other end, where the door she was trying to get through was that has to be the reason that police officer, you know, just starch this weapon and use deadly force.

 And, you know, putting all these pieces together, watching the one lone black police officer lead the crowd away from where there were people still in the Senate chambers by himself. Like all these moments, [00:06:00] the police officer being crushed by the door, seeing them all together, hearing the crowd chant, hang Mike Pence with gallows up on the Capitol lawn, like all putting it together.

 I think it's sinking in for everybody that there were people in that crowd ready to overthrow our government in the truest sense of the word, not just take the building, but to take elected officials and to do them grave, if not deadly harm.

Beth: [00:06:33] There's so much conversation right now about not painting everyone with one brush. And I think what you just walked through is important in the process of demonstrating that that's not the intention. I understand that some people went to the save America March for the same reason that a lot of people go to Donald Trump rallies, which is just to take in the spectacle of it. And among the people who were, [00:07:00] there were people who, who went to take in the spectacle, people who believe in the president, but definitely have a limit to what they'd be willing to do to express that belief.

People who got caught up in the moment and made some terrible, terrible decisions and understanding that there were people in that crowd, like you said, who were not spontaneously caught up and riled up by the people around them, but who went with a plan and with some skills to try to execute on that plan, or at least the intention to use skills that they had. 

And who knew that the spontaneous crowd would be exceptionally helpful to them in that process, you can see in the internet chatter that was going on throughout the day that they depended on the fact that some quote, regular people who were there just to take in the scene would go with them so that the numbers would be [00:08:00] overwhelming for law enforcement. And that was the plan. Now, am I talking about the Republicans that lived down the street when I tell you that?

No, I am not, but I do think it is important to be cognizant of the fact that the totality of people involved in this act of domestic terror began in different places. The unifying trait is their support of the president and their support of the president going far enough to motivate them to act and cross threshold after threshold after threshold.

If you are hearing things about Antifa, there is excellent fact check from the Dispatch about who these people were and why they were there. And this idea that it was some kind of false flag operation is another example of us being asked, not to believe what is evident in numerous forms, right before our eyes.

Sarah: [00:08:54] I'm struggling with this. I understand that there is a [00:09:00] spectrum and, you know, we often use the term Republicans. But do, I mean Republican leadership, the Republican president? Do I mean far right extremists? Do I mean people who vote Republican? Like I think it's, it's really hard and our language would probably benefit from increased precision because what I know is that I feel so angry. 

And what we're hearing from all of you is that you also feel so angry because as we see all these images and we gain more and more information about the deadly intentions of many of those who attack the Capitol, Of the support, if not acquiescence of those house of representative members, United States senators and of course the president himself, and those who surround him, as we realized, like [00:10:00] it just could have been so much worse. 

And also it was worse than we realized at the time. Like, I don't think that anger is an inappropriate emotion. You know, I wrote in our newsletter, I want righteous fire to rain down on anybody who does not show remorse for supporting a president who could lead us to this moment in American history and for supportive a party that could lead us to this moment in American history.

And at the same time, I also struggle with at the end of the day, you know, the 33% who still think Donald Trump is doing a good job, the what is it? Like 8% of people who support those who storm the Capitol. That's still millions and millions of my fellow citizens. And what am I supposed to do about that?

How am I supposed to feel about them? I don't think I can feel rage at 12 million Americans for the rest of them life. I don't want to, and I don't think it's good for our democracy. I'm not going to [00:11:00] tell you I have the answer because I don't know the answer. I want consequences for those who played a role.

I would really like to see remorse, but I'm also not delusional that the millions and millions of people, if they don't still support, the president may even openly support those who attack the Capitol are just going to disappear tomorrow or just going to come to see the light tomorrow. And. We don't have enough jails for 12 million people.

So I don't know what to do with that anger. I don't know what to do with that frustration. I don't know how to, you know, support my values. Am I, you know, fundamental principles that I don't want to dehumanize and I don't want to let the rage that I feel at these people and what they did to us you know, fill me up. It's hard.

Beth: [00:11:53] I don't have an answer either. I think sometimes I don't know is a really important place to stay and it's a [00:12:00] really miserable place to stay, but it's an important place to stay because if we seek out an answer to those questions today in this period of stress, I doubt many of our answers are going to create something positive in the world.

Right. And for those of us who are not in positions to have to make decisions about actual immediate accountability. And I'm sorry, I'm using the word immediate deliberately because often regret or a different perspective or an opening to what a democratic administration could do just takes a lot of time.

So I just, I feel okay about saying, I don't know, and giving myself and everybody else some time. And I think it's important to recognize that on the other end of the spectrum, there are people who were not there and are living through a lot of trauma attached to what [00:13:00] they've seen. It is horrifying to me to have seen a noose prepared for Mike Pence.

I can't imagine what that imagery means to many of my fellow Americans. I cannot imagine what seeing the Christian flag paraded around the Capitol means to many of my fellow Americans. I used to say the pledge of allegiance to the Christian flag at Bible school. That is very far in my distant past.

There are people who still say the pledge to the Christian flag, and I can't imagine how heartbreaking it is to them to see that flag used in this way. There are just so many pieces and pieces and pieces of trauma that are unfolding for very different groups of people across the country. And so I think all of us staying with, I don't really know, for a while, is probably important where 

Sarah: [00:13:54] I'm really struggling is I believe in [00:14:00] social pressure. I believe in it. I believe it works. And I think that there should be social pressure on people who participated in this rally, even if they did not participate in the attack. I think there should be social pressure on people who proudly displayed their devotion to president Trump.

And I think where I'm settling is I think that social pressure will be more effective if it does not come from a place of rage, I think it will be more effective if it just comes from a place of you are part of this body and your actions harmed it, and you need to feel that and understand that and suffer consequences because of it.

Now, this is, this is very different from how I feel about the people with the zip ties or Josh Holly or president Trump. Right. And I think that's, what's so hard too, is like we're, we're being asked to, you know, stay a single position for this entire [00:15:00] spectrum of behavior that has gotten us to this point.

And I don't mean a spectrum of behaviors starting after the election in 2020, because it wasn't just the results of the past presidential election that got us to January 6th. And we all know that. And so I think like that's, what's so hard is we're looking at the, at this long timeline of behavior, a wide spectrum from I held my nose and voted for him to you know, I served as his vice president with total devotion and loyalty, and now I'm upset that he endangered my safety. 

And so I just think that's, what's hard too is it's not it's this wide spectrum, but I think for the people who are still reachable, that social pressure has a role to play. And I think that, I mean that not just in your devotion to the president, but anyone in your social circles who says that the election was stolen.

I think it is imperative on all of us, not from a place of rage, [00:16:00] but from a place of moral authority. And so in a good old fashioned social pressure to say that is not true. And you cannot say that. That is not true. What you're saying is a lie and it is dangerous and it is harmful. And I mean, I think that's every person's work to do.

Beth: [00:16:20] I was reading an article in the Washington Post about the ransacking of the Capitol and about items that were damaged. Items of real historic significance that were damaged. And I thought the article was such a, an important piece in terms of just what actually happened and also a really important metaphor for where the country is right now, because some things are just lost.

There are things that were damaged in the Capitol or that were stolen, that will not come back. They're just lost. And I think there are some things that are just lost for [00:17:00] America as a result of what's happened over the past few weeks and some things were damaged and can be repaired and that repair is going to be slow and careful, and we'll have to keep a lot of different factors in mind.

And there are things that were just litter, you know, that had to be cleaned up. And we have some of that too. And there is lots of different kinds of work that has to be done right now. I think that's part of what makes the discussion about what Congress should do so difficult because there's more than one goal.

If you're talking about impeachment versus the 25th amendment versus resignation, there's more than one goal that has to be accomplished right now. As I see it, the first goal and the most immediate one is ensuring that our country is protected until the inauguration. Until and during the inauguration and goal number two is imposing some accountability for an outrageous [00:18:00] abdication of power and display of disloyalty toward this country, by the president and goal number three is accountability for lots of other people in positions of leadership who displayed disloyalty to the country and incited violence. And then goal number four is figuring out how to talk to the country about this and move things forward. And there is not one single action that can accomplish all of those goals.

There aren't very many actions standing alone that will accomplish even one of those goals. So it's a really difficult time and I'm struggling with being too critical of anybody in a position of leadership, that's trying to accomplish those goals and their tactics because we're in such uncharted waters. We don't know how to do this. We don't ha we have not had to solve those four problems together before. 

Sarah: [00:18:55] Well, and I think what's making it even more difficult to [00:19:00] think about accomplishing those goals and how to deal with people in power, the people who committed criminal acts and the people who participated in the rally and have supported the president and continued to support the president, is there's this confusion that if I want to spend any time at all, thinking about how to deal with the people who are swept up in conspiracy theories or still support the president or, you know, whatever, 

like any consciousness of how to exhibit social pressure on them and not just abandon them to the, the priorities of the far right extremist gets mixed up in, well, anything we should do, any consequence we seek, we should think about how those people will feel about it. Well, that will just, if we, if we do the 25th amendment, well, that we'll just enrage those same people. If we file [00:20:00] for articles of impeachment, it will just enrage his supporters.

And that will tear us farther apart as a country. Right? Like let me not misspeak. I do not care. I do not care the idea that we should weigh whatever consequences we choose to seek against those who attacked our Capitol against the emotions of the Trumpbase is ludicrous and stupid. And I don't want to hear it.

The idea that like, Oh, well that might upset them. Well, I'm sorry. We're past that again. I think there is tension to hold. I'm not ready to discard millions of my fellow Americans. It's not even that I'm ready to, I'd love to, but I don't have the choice. I don't get to. And that's what I'm trying to grapple with, but the idea that they should then also steer how we best decide to seek [00:21:00] justice for what happened at the Capitol is just ridiculous to me.

Beth: [00:21:04] Well, they're just already mad. They're already mad and there's not a thing that's going to not make them mad. And you know how I know that because I have empathy for that piece of it. I'm mad and I'm not going to not be mad because of how somebody handles something at this point. There is not a thing that could happen right now where I would say, well, I feel a lot better about all this, and I am definitely not a person who feels so strongly about anything that I would load up some guns and ammo and head to Washington DC. 

So if I'm this mad and this immovable mad, I can, I can get that people who support the president are this mad and they're not going to be moved. Neither of us are good people to say, how are you going to feel when deciding what happens next?

You know, it, it's not a helpful question. Because it doesn't matter how we feel. It matters what's the right thing to do for America. [00:22:00] And part of the reason that I was so upset before the Capitol breach on Wednesday, Ted Cruz stands up during his time to speak in the objection period and says, all these people are so upset about the election being stolen.

And they're being told to sit down and shut up and go jump in a Lake. And I thought, no, they are being told to sit down and shut up because that happens in a group. Right. In any group that you participate in, there's going to be a moment where the needs of the group outweigh your needs as an individual and you are going to be told to sit down and shut up, 

Sarah: [00:22:37] especially if you're suffering from a delusion. 

Beth: [00:22:40] Right. And sometimes that sit down and shut up is going to come in a kinder way than others. But we all have moments in our lives where sit down and shut up is the right answer. That is entirely different from go jump in a Lake.

That is entirely different from you don't matter as a human being, you're worthless. I will never care about you again, it is on [00:23:00] this particular point, you are wrong. And so on this particular point, your feelings will not govern for the whole. That's all it is.

 And it frustrates me to hear representatives after the breach on the Capitol saying, well, we got to really work on bringing people together and making people feel included and better in imposing accountability. We really can't hurt anybody's feelings here. No, you have to lead from in front of people, not behind them. 

You cannot wait for people to go, oh, maybe he, maybe it wasn't okay for armed people to walk into the Capitol, murder a police officer, destroy American artifacts and threaten the lives of representatives, journalists, staff, members, people just trying to do their jobs. 

Maybe that wasn't okay. We don't wait for that to say it. Wasn't okay. If you want to be in a position of leadership, you have to be in front and you do have to be the person who sometimes says, [00:24:00] sit down and shut up. That's wrong. Sometimes that has to happen. Well, 

Sarah: [00:24:04] and they're not mad because people are telling them to sit down and shut up, you're wrong. That's not what I heard in the reporting from the ground of that rally. And I don't even mean by the time they got to the Capitol. I mean, from before then. They're mad because people have told them and they believe, and then espouse that the other side is the enemy.

That, that Democrats and liberals and Nancy Pelosi are dangerous and are trying to take down America. That's why they were willing to kill her. I have zero doubt that if somebody had gotten their hands on Nancy Pelosi, she would have lost her life on January 6th, zero, because she is, you know, number one villain.

She's not a human being anymore to the extremists who have adopted this belief system. That their fellow Americans, that particularly politicians from the other party are the [00:25:00] enemy. They're the enemy. So it's really not about, we have some really valid concerns. You need to pay attention to it's that you're not going to save this from us from them and if you won't, we will. 

Beth: [00:25:10] It just makes me think about how much it mattered when John McCain, when he was running against president Obama told the woman who used the word enemy about Obama that that was not true, that he was a good person with whom he has significant disagreement, but he loves this country.

No one has spoken like that for the past four years. No one. Nope. And that is how we got here. And for Ted Cruz and Josh Holly to hide behind people like my Republican friends down the street and saying, well, they believe this. Well, friend, it's your job to tell them that's not right. And they believe it because you haven't done that. And in fact you've said, no, that sounds sort of like, it could be legitimate. I will act on that. That's why this has happened. 

Sarah: [00:25:54] Well, and I think the truth is that moment. And there were moments before then when [00:26:00] the representative yelled at you lie at Obama, all these different moments, when we saw what was happening and you know, I think, I even think back to George HW Bush in that, that first turn in advertising where we're saying, you need to be afraid of them. You need to be afraid of De Caucus because he's going to let criminals out and they're going to harm you. 

She didn't come to the idea that Barack Obama was the enemy, like on her own. She didn't spring forth out of bed one day and decide that. People told her that. People in the right wing media. People in campaign ads, the scary guy voice with the black and white ad, you know, like that. We see it, you see it over and over and over again. You need to be afraid. You need to be afraid because they're going to take apart America. They're going to hurt America. 

Beth: [00:26:51] And that fear has all come for the acquisition of power and money. And that's what just [00:27:00] it seems so apparent to me. I try really hard not to be like, it's so obvious what's wrong with everyone. And I'm really working on that instinct right now. It seems so apparent to me watching people like Sarah Huckabee Sanders, say, go to my website and give me your email address because they're silencing conservatives on social media and this is the only way we can stay connected.

 Come on. That's a valuable thing to have an email list and to use an event like this, to build an email list, come on. That really upsets me, you know, and, and you see that across the spectrum right now. Give me your data because big tech is silencing us.

You're being asked for your data the same way that you're being asked for your vote by those scary commercials, it's all about amassing something for someone else. And listen, I get that. There is no one who is perfect, [00:28:00] but we have never seen. And I say this as someone who's voted for a lot of Republicans and who used to label myself as one, we have never seen Democrats go to the United States Capitol and try to overthrow the government. It's just not a moment for what about Democrats? It's just not 

Sarah: [00:28:21] My 11 year old was going to middle school today and he's like, I can't. For the first time in a long time, he's like, ah, I'm so dreading what all the Trump people say.

And I'm like, well, you can tell them that there is no historical equivalent period. There is no historical equivalent and to those, like you said, the dispatch has a really good debunking of this. And also we are arresting people. We are arresting lots and lots of people, and none of them are Antifa. None of them represent any sort of, what about ism on the left?

The idea that civil unrest, even rioting during protest is the same as an attack on our Capitol is ludicrous. [00:29:00] It's ludicrous. We had a Twitter thread we sort of stumbled upon this weekend. I shared it on our Instagram. Fade. And it was, who'd grown up in a white supremacist community and she said, you know, the problem is they don't really believe it.

And she shared this great quote, the Zen quote, that you cannot wake up a person pretending to be asleep. So I know so many of you guys are frustrated with these arguments and there is a part of me that says, you're trying to wake up somebody who is pretending to be asleep. I think that deep down, or maybe not even that deep down, the people arguing that there, there is Antifa, and this is the same as the civil unrest in the summer.

And all these, you know, Donald Trump is not that bad. That 33% that still think he's doing a great job as a president. Like, I don't think they believe it. I don't think they believe it. I think they believe it in the [00:30:00] same way, you know someone in a cult believes things. That's not belief, that's not consent. That's manipulation. And you know, I think trying to argue with it or debate it from a place of good faith is just inherently trading and crazy-making and unproductive to say the least. 

Beth: [00:30:29] So what has happened so far? We have the house of representative Dave's trying to move forward a resolution from representative Jamie Raskin by unanimous consent that would call on Mike Pence to invoke the 25th amendment. Representative Alex Mooney of West Virginia objected, and said they could not use unanimous consent. And his statement describing his reason for objection was that he thinks the house ought to have debate and a vote on the floor to do something so significant.

[00:31:00] Do I believe that? I have no idea. I know nothing about representative Alex Mooney, but I do think it is significant that the Republican who is willing to put his name on this objection did not issue a statement saying it shouldn't pass. He just issued a statement about the procedure. Again, social pressure, I think does work.

Okay. So the Raskin resolution will now come up for a vote in the house. Democrats are confident that it will pass. They have filed one article of impeachment that could be taken up this week. If Mike Pence does not invoke the 25th amendment following the passage of that 

Sarah: [00:31:33] resolution. 

And we have over 200 representatives in the house signed on to this article of impeachment. And there has been pretty consistent reporting that they expect some Republicans to vote favor of this article of impeachment. And so as soon as that is voted on in theory will go to the Senate. Again, we have a deep dive into the mechanics of impeachment.

The problem is that the Senate is on recess. I mean that Mitch McConnell says [00:32:00] in order to pull them out of recess to take up the impeachment trial, he would need 100 senators to support that. Don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. So the day that they come back as January 19th, which means we will be facing an impeachment trial in the Senate at the same time as Joe Biden's presidential term begins.

Beth: [00:32:21] And that's assuming that the house would immediately send the article of impeachment to the Senate. There is conversation about the possibility that speaker Pelosi gets the house, gets him impeached and we talk in our five things, impeachment is like an indictment, right? So we say you have done this crime, but now it must be proven out and a verdict rendered and a sentence delivered.

That's what happens in the Senate. So it's possible that speaker Pelosi gets the house to impeach the president and then holds the article and does not refer it to the Senate until a hundred days into Joe Biden's presidency. Sarah. [00:33:00] I would love to hear your thoughts about that concept. 

Sarah: [00:33:03] Dang. You beat me to it. That's exactly the thing I was going to ask you. I couldn't wait to hear what you thought about this. I have competing instincts, but I don't think delaying the Senate trial is a good idea.

 With all due respect to the United States Senate, maybe you just need to work a little harder. Maybe you can do a couple things at once, or maybe you can, you know, Mitch McConnell manipulates the Senate calendar and parliamentary procedures to meet all manner of goals.

I don't know why Chuck Schumer, who will be our new majority leader can't do that as well, that we can't work to hold the president responsible for his role in inciting the mob to attack the Capitol and approve appointments. You know, this recess upsets me to begin with because did you see where for the first time they won't have the secretary of state confirmed an appointed by inauguration and like 10 secretary of States.

So I don't understand this recess to begin with. I don't [00:34:00] know why they are not there. Reviewing and approving the appointments already. So I'm frustrated by that. 

Beth: [00:34:08] I disagree very much with the concept of holding the impeachment. I think that the house ought to impeach him expeditiously and refer it to the Senate.

And I understand that the house can't control when the Senate takes it up and it's beyond aggravating that the Senate will not resume its session in order to do that quickly. But I don't think that you tell the American people, this is an emergency and then hold it for a hundred days because you want to work on the Biden agenda.

And I don't think anybody in the Biden administration ought to want that either. If it is a serious as I believe it to be. I believe it is a national crisis we are in right now. I believe it is an absolute emergency. The president doesn't even feel shamed enough to not have it going out to media that he's got a bunch of pardons planned, that he's got a bunch of actions on protests planned.

Yeah. I mean, We have no idea what's going to unfold over [00:35:00] the next nine days. And my feeling is that the us Congress ought to use every tool available to it and do it right now. And if that extends beyond January 20th and disrupts some of what we'd like the beginning of the Biden administration to look like so be it. But the beginning of the Biden administration is going to look like a crisis, no matter what. It just is. And I just, I hope that they do not play those games. I really 

Sarah: [00:35:26] do. No. And there's a part of me that like, again, it's not that I don't understand the idea that, because I think there's a case that you made. It's so serious that they need time to gather the case and the evidence, and really present it to the American people. And that will be hard to do this soon.

 It's not like you rushed to trial out of after any major crime. In a way. I understand that. I also understand that in the middle of a crisis, like the global pandemic, that the Biden administration needs to be able to fully staff up immediately and get to [00:36:00] work. But it's like, again, there's a part of me that's like, well, you won't have Mitch McConnell in your way. So do it all at once. 

Beth: [00:36:07] So that discussion is taking place. If I were in charge of the world, I would want to see the 25th amendment and impeachment moving down, parallel tracks while the most influential people in Congress are pressuring the president to resign about every 20 seconds.

Sarah: [00:36:27] Yep. Did you read the reporting that this, that the weekend, you know, the reason that they basically waited until Monday is because there was intense pressure on, I read that there was intense pressure on Mitch McConnell, to seek a resignation. I don't know how that was going to happen when Mitch McConnell made a plan he was never going to talk to president Trump again, which let's just think about that. 

Like we're like, Oh, it's, you know, his term is almost over. Yes. But we're wrapping up a presidential term in the middle of a global pandemic and constitutional crisis with a Senate, majority leader [00:37:00] and a president that don't speak and a house majority leader and a president that don't speak and defense to the vice-president that happens, but that don't speak.

And it depends department of defense officials that are avoiding the president for fear that he will command them to do something that violates their constitutional duties. I don't know how else to describe a five alarm fire cause that sure as hell seems like one to me. 

Beth: [00:37:21] Even difficult to know how the 25th amendment would work right now, because there are so many acting members of the cabinet. Who gets to vote on that now? I mean, we are, we are in such uncharted territory and I want to say about that. I know that you all want really good strong firm clear answers to your questions. And I wish I could give them to you. 100% of the time as they come into us.

 The trouble is at its foundation our framers designed a system of government that's pretty flexible because where you get good, strong, clear answers is from a form [00:38:00] of government that is not democratic. And so the price of our democratic system is often being in a place where you think, I don't know, they could try this and they could try that and if that happened, then maybe this would happen or maybe it would go this way and maybe it would end up in court and maybe the court would hear it and maybe the court would stay out of it because the court would say it's political.

We don't know. And that's where we are for so many things right now. We just don't know. And a lot of people are going to have to try things. And that's incredibly frustrating as citizens, especially when to me, there is absolute clarity about the fact that something horribly wrong took place and that there should be consequences for it.

Sarah: [00:38:42] Well, you know, there is clarity, but we had clarity that something wrong happened on Wednesday. And now we have so much more information, you know, I think that's, what's hard about it too, is that we are learning more and more and more about the planning that went into it about what happened on that day.

[00:39:00] And I think, you know, that's, what's difficult too, is like, it's hard not to make the case that time is providing more clarity, which it almost always does. Not that I want the a hundred day delay in the Senate trial, but we don't have briefings. The only person who's given a briefing on what happened when our seat of government fell to an angry mob on Wednesday is the mayor of Washington DC. 

That's unbelievable to me that we have not had briefings from law enforcement officials where the press can answer questions we all want answered that is mind blowing. What is going on? 

Beth: [00:39:39] I fully agree with the person and I, I cannot remember which representative it was who said that we need a 9/11 style commission to sort out the lack of preparedness and the delay in response to the mob. I think that's a hundred percent, right. This is not going to be over quickly, no matter what course of action 

Sarah: [00:39:58] is. Yep. [00:40:00] Yeah. I mean, the, the, it's almost like the, the discussion about impeachment and the 25th amendment is just triaged, right? It's not justice. It's triaged.

And I think that that's, what's so hard is like, we're going to have to be because all of us want to feel better. All of us want to feel better. We want Joe Biden, not all of us, but most of us when Joe Biden to be president and to feel like there's a hand on the wheel and, you know, I don't like spending moments of my life, having a delightful interaction with my child and then sort of having that flash through my brain of like, Oh, remember our democracy is in danger. Remember what happened on Wednesday? It's not pleasant. I don't like it. It's awful. It's scary. And we all, I think have to fight the instinct to like move past it.

Even if we, you know, even if the day after they'd follow the 25th amendment, this isn't over, this is not. Over, this is [00:41:00] going to be the work of most of our lifetimes, figuring out how we got here, preventing it from happening again, and undoing the damage that was wrought. And that is that's heavy. That's heavy to think about.

And you know, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking for anyone who loves this country, as I know you and I, and so many listening do, but I don't. I don't know another option available to us. There is no quick fix available again, even if they had invoke the 25th amendment and pulled him from office on Thursday, it wouldn't have been over.

So we're going to be wrapped up in public sector accountability for a long time. And next up after the break, we're going to talk about private sector accountability.

[00:42:00] Beth: [00:42:04] I know, you're all aware that Twitter has decided to permanently suspend Donald Trump's main Twitter account and played whack-a-mole over the weekend in dealing with other accounts that people had offered him to use to get messages to supporters. I think that document that Twitter issued about this decision was fascinating and it's a document that I will continue to read, and as Fred, one of our listeners said it will be studied in media classes for a long time. 

Twitter said that the president's tweets about not attending the inauguration, this is one thing that they said among others, that the president's tweets about not attending the inauguration in context seemed to mean and were being understood as a go ahead to bring violence to the inaugural ceremony.

And they did that kind of analysis with a couple other tweets. And I think just stepping back and [00:43:00] understanding that it is, it represents an enormous shift in the way that social media companies view themselves to say, not only do I take the tweet at its face value, but I take the context of who said it and how it's being understood into account in determining whether we can allow it to stand. 

That's a very, very significant shift. So we have that happened with Twitter. We have had just all kinds of fallout since. Everybody, including Pinterest has said, I don't want any part of this. And then incredibly significantly, Amazon web services has said we will not be hosting Parlor.

 Stripe has said we will not be processing payments to the Trump campaign. And so going beyond just does he get to use his preferred megaphone? We are getting into territory where tech [00:44:00] is really done facilitating this movement. 

Sarah: [00:44:04] You know, the cynical take is that part of this is motivated by the fact that the Democrats won control of the Senate and that big tech is anticipating more regulation and not wanting to make that side of the aisle mad.

But honestly, I think they could have anticipated more regulation, no matter what. I think both sides are angry with them, uh, for different reasons. And I think and I hope, and I, I choose a less cynical take. Although I think some of that analysis could be true that they saw what w all the rest of us saw on television that they registered a truly historical event.

And it seems particularly from that statement registered the, the, the chatter and the way those groups, um, communicate and organize through their platforms. I think they've gotten, you know, if they haven't gotten any better, they sure as heck have gathered a lot of data [00:45:00] about how those groups organize and strategize to commit violent acts on their platforms towards their fellow Americans and towards our government.

You know, the New York Times Daily podcasts had really good reporting about how these reporters saw all this stop the steal organizing happening. And they were the ones that alerted Facebook. But by the two days that gone on, it had proliferated to like millions of people and thousands of pages and in groups organizing and doing this.

And it's, you know, once it's out, it's very hard. And I think there's, you know, I think that social media. Is absolutely essential to do discuss, you know, even you and I were talking about it this weekend. It was like, boy, you know, I, I just can't fathom, what's taken off in the last several decades as we have all been sitting around and wringing our hands about polarization.

You know, I think that the role of the internet [00:46:00] is indisputable. And also at the same time, I just think it's difficult because they've, they've provided a platform. And they have spread and allow these groups to organize, but I don't think just removing the platform, like I said, that's not the quick fix either.

Removing him from Twitter doesn't mean we can all dust our hands off and say, okay, we did it. We're good. We're, let's go home. And I don't think anybody really believes that, but. It felt good. I'm not going to lie. It felt good. I think it felt good to a lot of people to realize like he's done, he can't speak. And I think that the consequences of that are important, but he just exploited the system and to kick him out of the system, doesn't mean that the system is not still problematic. 

Beth: [00:46:49] And please make no mistake. He can speak all he wants to. He could call a number of television networks and say whatever he wants to today, and it would all be [00:47:00] broadcast. He could have a press conference. I imagine people have lots of questions they'd like to ask him. He could write an op-ed and have it published. He has email list. 

Sarah: [00:47:09] Yeah. He could text millions of Americans 

Beth: [00:47:11] right now. Okay. There is no argument, none that his first amendment rights have been violated. None of us have a first amendment right to post anything on social media. Those are private companies. If you walk to a mall in your area and start shouting horrific things in the mall and the mall decides they don't like what you're saying, and it's very alarming to everyone else, they can jerk you out of the mall. And it has nothing to do with the first amendment.

Nothing. And that's the same thing that happened on Twitter. It's their platform. They don't like it. They can toss you. I think it is such an alarming thing to hear Republicans analyze what happened on Twitter with comparisons to dictators and other countries. You're telling me that you actually don't believe the president of the United [00:48:00] States has a different level of power and authority and responsibility than the Ayatollah in Iran?

 Is that really what you think? That surely cannot be it. And that's the problem with the whole Trump presidency. We simultaneously took this person and gave him unparalleled power while allowing the bar to lower so far on his behavior that the bar looked around and said, well, I guess I'm not needed any more and walked away.

And that has been going on for four years and of course it has culminated in where we are today. So anyway, first amendment has not a role at all here and you don't have to be fearful of these changes around tech and whether all conservative speech is going to be banned because we're living through inevitable shifts around new technologies.

Social media did not exist when I was in elementary school so it has come to be a thing. It has come to be [00:49:00] a dominant thing. We are grappling with what that means for it to be a dominant thing. There's going to be some reigning in of it. There are going to be all kinds of ebbs and flows and shifts because we still don't know what this thing is yet.

That's just part of the process of a society, figuring out how to be around new stuff. Think back to cars, we had to learn how to regulate cars for them to be used safely. And we're still learning it in a lot of ways. It's the same thing here. 

Sarah: [00:49:27] Well, what infuriates me about the, the conservative criticism drama hysteria, I think hysteria is fair, honestly, about social media and conservative censorship is, this is the same party who spent decades using policy to increase corporate power. Who fought in the Supreme court to say that corporations are legal people with the right to free speech. You said. In the Supreme court and defended a corporation's right to free speech through donations, [00:50:00] but you don't want them to exercise speech on their platform.

Like you don't want them to, to be able to exercise their corporate power as they see fit, when it comes to social media. Give me a break. You guys, it's just, it's just like the hand ringing about, well, I'm gonna, it doesn't matter that propping up the opinions of the base enflames tensions and supports some of the same talking points of extremist groups who want to do violence at the Capitol and other places, because I mean, that's the right thing to do.

We got to do it. I mean, we got to just, it doesn't matter the consequences, if it's it's the right thing to do, but the second impeachment comes up, I just can't believe you're tearing apart America like this. Like the hypocrisy is, I mean, it feels like. It almost feels like gaslighting. Like it just feels so manipulative and so craven.

Beth: [00:50:54] Well, the trouble is what the honest to goodness message at the base of all of that obfuscation [00:51:00] looks like is we don't think there should be accountability anywhere. It would be too polarizing to do it through the, the portion of our government. That's empowered to do it. And it's too Orwellian for social media platforms to do it.

And how terrible and offensive to millions of Americans for these corporations to pull their donations from conservative politicians. I mean, there's, this again is to your point, we should not look around and say, what will a hundred percent of the public except happily here, because that's not available.

So everybody is left in the absence of strong bipartisan leadership. Everybody is left to do their very best. And that's what the private sector is doing 

Sarah: [00:51:46] right now. I mean, I think that pulling the donations and saying we, you know, even Cumulus media came out and said that any online personalities, Ben Shapiro, Dan Bongino [00:52:00] who come out and continue to say the election was stolen would be fired immediately. Like that's what we need to see. That's what we need to see. 

We need to hold people responsible and to, you know, force this reckoning that you can cravenly and hypocritically pursue power at all costs is not available to you anymore because there's, you know, you can roll your eyes at, we need each other, and that we're all connected, but that is true in a, in a loving and justice filled way.

 And that is true in just a logistical way. And that if you continue to assault our democracy, you're going to lose your power to use Stripe, and you're going to get kicked off Twitter. And you think that you can, you know, that the, that the ability to constantly disrupt and to constantly put the rest of us in danger and to assault our democracy for your own political ends, um, is never ending because there's always to be money to be made somewhere. Well, the [00:53:00] reverse of that is always true. There's always money to be taken away somewhere as well. And I'm happy for these people to learn that lesson, the hard way I am 

Beth: [00:53:08] and this isn't happening because people have different views on abortion. It's not happening because people have different views on tax policy or any number of really controversial issues.

It's not even happening because people have serious deep seated prejudices and hatred. It is happening because these are attacks on our foundational government, our structure. These are, these are things that we don't have anything else if we don't have them. I know lots of you are having conversations about what about the Black Lives Matter protests?

And again, my reaction to that is it doesn't matter what I think about violence around protests if our entire system of government collapses. If we don't get it right at this level, at the level of, we [00:54:00] have an objection, it's legitimate, we have a transfer of power peacefully. It doesn't matter what I think about anything else.

It doesn't matter what you think about it either. This is the thing that has to be preserved at all costs. And that's, I think why you see such a dramatic and swift reaction from corporate America, because nobody understands that better than corporate America. 

Sarah: [00:54:22] Yeah. I mean, I think that's it. It's not that they're doing it out of the kindness of their heart. It's that there is no profit without stability, and there is no stability without a representative form of government. Right. If there's no, if you're going to constantly undercut, undercut, undercut, and then blatantly attack, and I think they've already seen that instability play out. And I think that they've already seen the impact of that instability on their bottom line.

I mean, again, we're still in the middle of a global pandemic that has rocked supply chains and every piece of the business community from the smallest of small businesses to the [00:55:00] giant corporations. Right. And I think taking that to heart, understanding that like, if we can not stand on this, there is no standing. We'll be constantly quaking and shaking and be blown about, you know, it's, like I said earlier this year, I don't like being blown about by the winds of history. Well, that's going to all, that's going to be happening to us if we can't find our footing. If we can't find our footing and say this far and no further. And I don't think that we're done with that fight yet.

I think that there's still chatter online that these far-right groups are looking to come back to the Capitol on the 17th, that they are looking at protest at state Capitols and social media headquarters and media outlets. Like I don't think that that were done here at all. And I don't mean just seeking justice and consequences for what happened on January 6th, but in paying attention and preventing another event like happened on January [00:56:00] six from happening again.

Beth: [00:56:01] And I know that the counter argument is people saying with slippery slope, if you can do it about this and you can do about other things. And what I believe in my heart is that American fears of slippery slopes is pushing us off a cliff. We must find a place where we're willing to actually say no, here is the line. This is it. This is the line.

You know, as we think about our people, because I know so many of you are just hurting terribly, and I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that with us and I think it has really helped other people to see that they aren't alone, I am thinking a lot about these four needs in life from a book that I'm reading. I'm reading a book called Happy, Healthy, Sexy by Katie Silcox.

It's about Ayurveda, which I bet you didn't [00:57:00] think I was going to mention in this episode, but she talks about how in Ayurveda, there is an understanding that human beings, all of us need four things and the four desires, that's how they're characterized as desires, not needs.

 But that, that we need a sense of prosperity. You know, that our needs are met with some relativities. We need a sense of purpose. We need to know that we're here and it matters. We need a sense of pleasure. We want things to feel good in our lives. And we need a sense of freedom. And as I read that list, I read it like five times. And as I read that list and thought about what it really means and how in one of Earth's wealthiest countries, I know very few people who feel that all four of those things are happening in their lives every day.

It gave me a knot. Sympathy, [00:58:00] not absolution, not forgiveness even entirely, but it gave me some kind of framework to think about and understanding people who are really mad for very different reasons than I am right now. And I'm not moved by that understanding in that framework to go like seek people out and have hearts to hearts.

I am not moved by it to read a bunch of profiles of Trump voters. I'm not really moved to do anything except stay in that I don't know place right now, but it helps me remember, I do have a lot in common with my fellow human beings, even if we are living in alternate information universes and alternate ethical universes right now.

 I do have a lot in common with my fellow human beings and there will be opportunities to walk in each other's directions. Thank you all so much again for trusting us with your time and your attention and your stories in this pivotal moment, we are having such good community discussions on [00:59:00] Patreon and on Instagram.

And so I hope that you're finding places to connect to other listeners because you are not alone in whatever you're experiencing right now. We will be back to talk with you more on Friday, have the best week available to you.

Beth: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Sarah: Alise Napp is our managing director. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth: Our show is listener supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

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Jared Minson, Marnie Johanson. The Creeds! 

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