Wildfires, Woodward, and the Weight of the Work
Topics Discussed:
World Suicide Prevention Day
September 11 Anniversary
West Coast Wildfires
Leadership in a Crisis
Bob Woodward Book
Brian Murphy - Homeland Security Department Whistleblower
Trump Flotillas and Caravans
Department of Justice & E. Jean Carroll Lawsuit
Voting Resources
Trump's Positive Achievements
Talking to Trump Supporters
The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (@800273TALK) offers free, confidential crisis counseling 24/7/365 - and you don’t have to be in crisis to call. Text “NAMI” to 741741 for help.
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Episode Resources
If You Can Grocery Shop in Person, You Can Vote in Person (The Atlantic)
Transcript
Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. It has been a week and we are here to do our very best to help you process it, learn some depth surrounding this avalanche of new stories and I don't know, survive? I'm gonna go with survive before we get started. We want to welcome Morgan McCue as the newest member of our executive producing team over on Patreon, the level of support that comes from our executive producers makes so many things at pantsuit politics possible, including our new transcripts, which all are lovin, and we are so happy to be able to provide.
Before we get started. I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that today as we're recording, September 10th is world suicide prevention day and it's Suicide Awareness month. Um, I've been personally affected by suicide. My brother died by suicide last summer.
It's heartbreaking and upending and awful. And far, far too many people experienced this particular heartbreak and too many of our fellow citizens are suffering with diagnosed mental health conditions, with addiction, with dispare. So much so that suicide is the second leading cause of death for people ages 10 to 34. And it's the fourth leading cause of death for people 35 to 54. We've seen an overall suicide rate increase in the United States, a 31% since 2001.
And right now people are suffering during the pandemic, during the recession, during the wildfires in the West coast, I think taking a moment to be aware of this risk to people suffering is really important. The national suicide prevention lifeline, which is 1-800-273-TALK offers free confidential crisis counseling, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. And you do not have to be in crisis to call and their campaign this year is the #be the one to.
And they talk about be the one to ask. That research shows people who are having thoughts of suicide, feel relief when someone asks them in a caring way, if they're suffering from suicidal ideation and it may reduce that rather than increase it.
I think there's a sense that like, well, if we ask, will it bring, will it make it more likely, when that's just not what the research shows. So we want to be the one to ask, be the one to be there for them to keep them safe, reducing access to weapons and guns that increase the fatality rates of suicide attempts. We want to help them stay connected and we want to follow up and we want to watch and be aware of those around us and how they may be suffering.
And I think that, you know, we want to be aware of that all year long, but not just because it's the official month, but because there is so much suffering right now, it's an, a really important thing to think about and be aware of.
Beth: [00:03:06] We also want to acknowledge that on the day, this episode comes out, uh, September 11th is where our calendar is, and that is a very significant date in American history. It is a very significant time of grief for many, many families. It is a time of incredible trauma that many people still with us have suffered. And if you were not a Pantsuit Politics listener two years ago, we put together a five part series on September 11th. And I think this is especially helpful for people who were not old enough to live through September 11th, or maybe for people who did live through it and are ready to take a critical look back at what happened and all of the changes that it brought about in our government.
I've thought so much about those episodes and the research that we did to put them together as I've been talking this week on Patreon about foreign intelligence surveillance, because so much of the way our government runs now is linked directly to what happened on September 11th and all of the ways we decided we needed to operate differently after that time.
So if you are a person who is at any level experiencing the grief and trauma of that day and I think in some respects, that's all of us, whether we know it or not, we're just lighting a candle for you today and holding out that memory, um, and always trying to better understand what we should learn from that moment and how we responded to it uh, and what brought us into that moment.
Sarah: [00:04:39] Well, especially with the big 20th anniversary coming up next year, I think right now is a great time to learn a bit, a little bit more, get curious about the event and think through our own sort of emotions and feelings so that hopefully next year, dear Lord, please be out out of this pandemic and we can commemorate this important moment in American history in a way that it deserves.
Beth: [00:05:02] Ruth Brown, who is a friend and supporter of Pantsuit Politics and a talented graphic designer has put together a very easy PDF for you to find those episodes, those five episodes we did in our series. So that will be in the show notes. You'll also see it on social media. We want to make that really accessible to people as you think about and hold room in your own life for continuing to process that tragedy.
Sarah: [00:05:25] Man. I wish we were shifting to news that was a little more uplifting. We are not, there are three, four major news stories breaking in the country right now. First and foremost, the wildfires on the West coast, the scenes, the photos, the videos in California, Oregon, Washington, Colorado right now are horrific, even in Colorado where they got snow.
I heard someone talk about, they're going to fly thermal cameras over top of the snow because there's fire under the snow. I mean, entire towns wiped out, people running for their lives. People losing their lives. People even not close to the fire, stuck inside their homes with poor air quality, they can't exercise, they can't eat, they can't go outside.
They can't do anything to reduce the stress and the moment of incredible intensity and fear. And it's just, it's horrific. It's horrific and my heart breaks. You know, I've been checking in with all my people on the West coast and to have ash rain down on you to have the sun darkened, to have orange skies early in the morning, or at dusk is just, it's so disorienting on top of a time that already feels so surreal. I'm so worried about everybody there and we're just, it feels so helpless to be on this side of the country and watch everyone on that side of the country suffering the way that they are.
Beth: [00:07:07] It really does and I don't know how much more you can process when you are just in the midst of so many clear present dangers.
I was sitting outside with friends last night and one of my friends moved to Kentucky pretty recently from a western state and was telling me about always being prepared for earthquakes. And it became like, we know what we're going to do. We have our plan understand how to process this. And I was so impressed with what she was sharing and kind of how her family has talked about that with their kids and just their entire approach.
And then I picked up my phone after that conversation and had all these pictures from people I know and love who are sitting in California right now. And I thought, I don't know how you wrap your mind around fire preparation. That's just a completely different risk. Right. And it's, and it happens so quickly and it's so overwhelming.
And even if you're not in the midst of a fire, the smoke, you can't really say like, okay, here's my plan around this. I think in the way that you, you can at least try to around other ways that nature brings fury to us. And so to know that this is happening and to see you government at a federal level so distracted with its own image in the midst of this apocalyptic nightmare that you find yourself in. I, I just can't express in adequate words, how mad this all makes me. I feel a level and this is not me at all, but I just- I feel a level of fury in my DNA right now about our inability to demonstrate our care for one another in this country, especially around these fires.
Sarah: [00:09:08] I just hope we are learning that the government is not all bad and that the best way in a country of 300 million people to demonstrate our care is not Red Cross donations. It's by demanding accountability and action from the organization. We have empowered to take care of all of us. It's infuriating to me, like we need, we have to have this.
We are not powerless. We are a powerful country and we should demand action because these problems are going to get worse. These wildfires are going to get worse. I have enormous respect for Kate Brown, the governor of Oregon, but when they keep using once in a lifetime to describe this event, I understand that they are trying to convey the severity.
But that's not true. It's not going to be once in a lifetime. This is going to keep happening. This is not the first time we'll talk about woods that are burning for the first time in decades. There's going to be more of this. And we have to have a plan, not individual families as a country because we are responsible.
And, you know, we feel powerless because we think it's up to us as individuals to forge a path. No, that's why we have a democratic government. That's why we have representatives. That's why we funnel all our tax dollars into one big pot so that we can pull our resources and actually make an impact. And not have to depend on the virality of a Facebook post or go fund me account.
Beth: [00:10:51] I think thinking about what our government is here to do is really important this week. As you sift through this new cycle, figuring out what to do, it's difficult, but as a guiding question, what is the federal government exists to do? I would hope that even the staunchest, libertarian leaning folks among us would talk about national security issues.
And I think, I think it is fair to call these wildfires national security issues. What greater threat could be brought upon the Western part of the United States right now? That is so clear. And so unforgiving and unthinking. I mean, I think that's why coronavirus is as Robert O'Brien told the president and we now all know the greatest national security threat of his presidency because it's not making choices.
It just exists. We are making choices around it, but it is not targeting certain people and not others. It is not concerned with whether that's a military installation or a civilian one. The big threats that we see now are indiscriminate. And that takes a shift in how we orient ourselves around those threats.
I do want to say before we move on to the Woodward book completely that while I wholeheartedly agree with Sarah, that the government has a greater role than anyone else here, please do make those Red Cross donations, if you are so inclined because they are doing very important work. And especially in the absence of a coordinated federal response, the States are doing the best they can.
Everybody is strapped for money and resources because of COVID-19 right now. So if you're in a position to give the Red Cross is a very good place to put those dollars.
Sarah: [00:12:42] Well, and let me just say too. They're security threats, because they're destabilizing. Natural disasters, global pandemics. You know, we see because of September 11th, national security through the lens of terrorists attacks, but that's true of terrorist attacks too. You know, Osama bin Laden and the attacks of September 11th exacted a huge toll in life. But what they really did was destabilize and create fear and chaos through that targeted terror attack. That destabilization is what national security advisers are supposed to be keeping an eye on and it's most certainly what a president should be leading us through.
It reminds me when I was on Hillary's campaign and when I was working in advance, I got to hang out with secret service agents, which I always greatly enjoyed. And it was right around when Al Gore received the Nobel peace prize. Do you remember this? And they were like, why, what why? And I was like, well, let me tell you something.
What do you think security is going to look like when we're all fighting over water? What do you think is going to security is going to look like when we have climate refugees, like, what is that going to mean? It's destabilizing. And they were like, yeah, that makes sense. I was like, thank you so much. You know, like I think that that's, that's, what's important.
And to say, you know, as we move into the blockbuster revelations from Bob Woodward's book, that Trump has, I'm going to downplay it. I want to prevent panic. That's what leadership is. Leadership is confidence and just you know, preventing panic, there is an aspect of leadership that is keeping people calm.
Absolutely. But you don't keep people calm by lying to them because they will find out the truth eventually. And if a virus is dangerous and deadly, they will find out the truth eventually. And the idea that that is, you know, this transactional view, this idea that the image is all that matters. It's just, it's so reflective of everything we already know about him, but hearing it in his own words where he can't blame a list of other reasons, we shouldn't believe it because it's his recorded words. It still leaves me a little shaken.
Beth: [00:15:04] I was thinking about the hurricane that Louisiana, Texas went through, uh, just what a week or two ago. It's hard to keep any sense of time right now. And how you had both Democratic and Republican governors, and we talked about this on the podcast saying to people, this is the one where you get out.
You do not stay. You do not understand the kind of havoc that is going to reach here. The National Weather Service was using the word unsurvivable, and I think that was calm, steady leadership in the face of a crisis. It didn't feel good. It wasn't cheerleading, but it didn't call for feel good and cheerleading the moment called for caring about people enough to tell them the truth and to say, this is what I need you to do now.
And I'll tell you, that's what I've so admired about governor Beshear during COVID-19 because I think he's been quite calm and quite steady, but he has said relentlessly every single day, at a microphone, in front of a camera, I care about you enough to tell you the truth. And the truth is we have to make certain choices right now to keep the most vulnerable people among us from dying because of this virus.
And it is our behavior, every single one of those numbers that we look at represents a person and choices of everyone who lives here in Kentucky. That is calm, steady leadership. I respect not wanting to create panic except that calm and paralyzed are different, you know, calm and lulled into a false sense of security are different.
And I do think in America in 2020, so many of us live so far above the average standard of living in the world, that it takes some pretty extreme language to help us believe that something could go wrong in our lives. And that's changing rapidly, but when you elect someone as president who's primary gifts in life are in the realm of marketing you get this kind of dichotomous, well, everything's great. Or everything's terrible. Instead of a person who's able to assess what's going on and give people some instructions about how we do our best through the hard thing.
Sarah: [00:17:38] Also important to note. The idea that he really wants to keep people calm is bullshit because he gets up there and fear mongers about the riots quote unquote and the lawlessness and Antifa.
This is the other major news story is that Brian Murphy, the former head of the Homeland security department's intelligence branch filed a whistleblower complaint, alleging that several top DHS officials, including illegally appointed DHS acting secretary, Chad Wolf, and deputy secretary Cuccinelli ordered him to downplay the threat of white supremacist groups, play up the thread of Antifa, where there was no intelligence to support that threat and to downplay the threat of Russian election interference.
We also learned, they kept a report that Russia was trying to perpetuate the idea of Joe Biden's decreased mental capacity that they kept secret because they wanted to prop up the president's political priorities instead of share actual threats.
And to me, like all that is, here's something I'm realizing. And I'm going to tell you when I had my aha moment, I sent this to you, when Donald Trump jr was being interviewed recently, and somebody was basically asking him about his own presidential ambitions. And he said, well, it's really nice in an arena of 15,000 when they start chanting 46. But I just don't know about the actual day to day work of the job.
And I thought, Oh, like hearing him articulate that. Like, I really don't actually want to be president. I want the praise. I want the marketing. I want the crowd adoration, but the day to day work of the job sucks, which means somebody is telling them that I would assume it's his father who's supposed to be doing the day to day work of the job and refusing to. So that was just this moment where I'm like, Oh no, it's not that he doesn't understand the job or doesn't want to do that. Like, It's not given an opportunity to do the job or can't do the job.
It's that he knows what is required of this moment. He knows the work and study and careful attention that is required and is just doesn't want to, is refusing to do it. It's all in that Woodward interview too, right? The idea that. It's not that's the job. He says, Oh, cheerleading, you know, talking up our great country, you know, leadership is confidence.
That's the job. No, no, no, no, no. What you mean to say is that part of the job I like doing and the only part of the job I'm willing to do, that's what you are really saying in that moment, because I think you understand there is more to the job than that, but you don't want to do it. Or you have no capacity to do it, or you think you can delegate it.
And what we're seeing is you can't, you cannot for better or for worse, we've built up the power of the executive branch so much, and you have people acquiescing and supporting a president who does not want to do the job.
Beth: [00:20:35] I think it can be helpful to relate what we're seeing at the highest levels of our government, to things that we've witnessed with our own eyes in our own lives because of the filter of like media and parties and Facebook and spend, it all feels really distant and like maybe something else could be going on here. And maybe this doesn't mean what it seems like it means. And I just would say like, just because some people say this is acceptable, doesn't make it acceptable. And it's easy to see that if you just pull it back to things you've experienced.
So the wildfires. Have you ever been part of a business or organization where there is a clear problem that no one's willing to address because it's too inconvenient. Of course you have. Of course you have. Now what if the consequences of that problem were entire towns being destroyed. Okay. Okay. Have you ever worked with a boss who wanted to be the boss, but didn't want to do the job?
Of course you have. Think about what that means. Have you ever worked with a boss who only wanted to hear what he liked hearing and told people you're going to be out of here if you don't do it my way and that's caused real problems? Of course you have, you know, because of people saying mean things about me on the internet this week, I was thinking about the times when they just said mean things about we in the hallway and my former job and.
And how, you know, with so much love and respect for so many of the people I worked with, there was a moment when I realized that one guy who I thought was pretty toxic, was going to become a really important decision maker. And I felt about that like, okay, well, there are things I can adjust to you here, but I decided I could no longer adjust to it when I realized that it wasn't going to just be that one guy.
It was going to be everybody else falling in line with that one guy. Yep. And when everybody else falls in line with that one guy, that one guy can breed that toxicity at a bunch of different layers. And that's what's happened to our country I think. I didn't stop being a Republican because of Donald Trump.
I stopped being a Republican because everybody around Donald Trump who shared that label in my view, abdicated their responsibilities and facilitated everything he's done. To me, the Bob Woodward revelations, to the extent that they are revelations only underscore Donald Trump was not the only person who knew how dangerous this was in January and Donald Trump is not the only person who had the ability to walk to a microphone at moments when it would have mattered to say, stop fighting about the dang masks.
Y'all this is very serious, you know? The fact that he stood in front of crowds and called this a hoax, lots of Republican senators and congressmen and professional staff members knew that was not true. And they let it happen anyway. And to me, that's the point when it's over. It's over at that point. And again, just because someone will excuse it or hide it or talk about owning the other side, whatever guys that is inexcusable, and you need only to think of an example in your own life to know that's right.
I keep hearing Kevin Bacon in my head saying these are the facts and they are undisputed.
Sarah: [00:24:12] Well, and let's talk about that toxicity because it was on full display over the labor day weekend with the Trump floatillas and the caravans. And I had a lot of friends and we had a lot of people reach out from our community that say it really freaked me out.
It made me feel like he was gonna win. And let me just say that was the point. That was the point. It was a display of force, just like when you literally roll in vehicles into a peaceful protest where the other side is on foot. It is a display of force. It is a display of force. It is meant as an intimidation technique and you need intimidation when you don't have facts, when you don't have support.
I truly. Believe that I do not think that these floatillas and caravans show that, Oh, we it's just going to be like, it's like 2016 all over again. And there's this secret support out there. And they're now they're even more willing to go out there and fly their flags on the back of their boats, in the back of their cars.
And we really need to be worried. I know we're all still very traumatized from 2016, but I think there's a narrative that because it was a surprise in 2016, it's absolutely going to go the same way in 2020. And Lord in heaven if 2020 has taught us anything, I think the idea that things will go as they were before should not be one of them.
Like, I really don't feel this sense of there's a secret surprise waiting for us on election day. That doesn't mean, I don't think we should stop working. I got some real thoughts on voting in a minute, but do not be intimidated by those floatillas and those caravans, because that is exactly what they want.
Beth: [00:25:57] Well, I think that's another attempt to make acceptable what's unacceptable. Before we dive into some of the, how do we have conversation with people about this that our listeners are asking for? There's one more piece of what is a government exists to do that we need to talk about. I posted on Twitter about this.
And we will put a link in our show notes to that thread because it has links within it to support what we're about to share here. But we've talked about government as needing to protect the national security of the United States. And that has a bunch of different dimensions that include climate and virus in addition to foreign threats, uh, being realistic about those foreign threats is important.
Being clear and honest with the American public. Within the government clarity and honesty, instead of manipulating to political priorities, there is also the element of doing justice. That's part of what a government is here to do, and that has a lot of dimensions.
And one of the most disturbing facets of a very disturbing news cycle. Concerns the department of justice caving as personal attorneys to the, of the United States, instead of as a very important arm of ensuring that all people are treated equally under the law.
Sarah: [00:27:16] So you may remember that E. Jean Carol accused president Trump of raping her in the 1990s. He then came out and said, she's lying and she's doing it for political purpose. So she sued him for defamation and that personal civil suit has been working its way through the system.
Then the department of justice announced that because president Trump made these statements during his term, his presidency, then it was really the United States government that's being accused of defamation and that they were going to take over the case and become the attorneys, moving it to federal court, and most likely leading to a dismissal because you can't sue the United States government for defamation. And so there's a lot of legalease and a lot of legal processes going on with this story.
Beth: [00:28:05] I think it's helpful to think about the kind of lawsuit that she brought. She went into court in the state of New York and said the president is telling media that he doesn't even know who I am. And so in her complaint, she has a picture of the two of them together.
She says the president is going to media and saying that Democrats paid me to invent this story. And that is not true. He's saying to media that he never assaulted me and that is not true. And all of these lies have harmed me and I want to be compensated for that harm. That is what the tort system looks like.
Okay. Cases like that get filed in States across this country. Every single day, those are state law claims that state courts handle all the time. The federal government filed what is called a notice of removal and in non-legal speak, that is a goodbye state court. We are going to now take this to federal court.
Because we think a federal court has the ability to hear these claims. Federal courts have limited power to hear cases. We are supposed to do most of our business in the court system, in state courts. So there are limited reasons that you can be in federal court. And the government said here, that this isn't about Donald Trump, the man, this is about Donald Trump, the president. As Sarah said their argument, which is atested to under oath by a DOJ lawyer.
Is that when the president said to media that he doesn't know E. Jean Carol, he didn't rape E. Jean Carol. He thinks Democrats paid her to tell this story that when he made those statements, he was making those statements as the president, not as a man. And because of that suit belongs in federal court and the department of justice will be representing him.
If that is not alarming to you again, like let's put this in our personal context. If someone at high level at your employer was accused of someone who is not part of your company for sexual misconduct and your employer swept in and said, well, this person worked here at the time that this whole thing went down so we're going to come in and like defend them. And we're going to use company funds to make sure that this goes away, how would you feel about that?
You know, and that's happening with tax payer dollars, which is I think one problem. But secondly, taking this to federal court has the effect. And this to me is the whole ever-loving point that zero people in our government care about right now, because everything is craving and political, taking it to federal court has the effect of delay.
It will create lots of motion practice. They were nearing a possible set of discovery requests to this president in advance of the November election in state court. And taking this to federal court will almost certainly shut that down. And if you are at the department of justice and you are willing to play defense for the president like that, what are you doing?
What are you doing? And then to reign down the resources of the department of justice on an individual plaintiff in a defamation lawsuit, what are you doing?
Sarah: [00:31:47] What this speaks up for me is for so long, I believed that his primary goal was protecting his own ego and. Building up profits or, you know, that transactional, what can I get from this?
And what I think this is reflective of as, as the, you know, profits campaign spending on his legal defense funds is like, now this is now the reason we're going to, we can expect for worst behavior, because now this is a little bit about his survival, these legal wagons are circling and his, you know, the presidency is his last best shot at avoiding deposition, at avoiding DNA collection, at avoiding his financial records being revealed.
And I truly believe it avoiding criminal prosecution. And so, you know, he's being backed into a corner. And if his willingness to shred norms and protecting his own ego, remember when we were so outraged, because he lied about the crowd size, went out the good old days, like that's only gonna get worse because the threat to him is growing.
And so I think we're going to see even more of, you know, particularly from Bill Barr, who also clearly does not have a bottom at using the structure of our government to protect not just as ego, but his personal interest.
Beth: [00:33:21] I mean, just in a vacuum, let's rewind to the nineties and say,
Sarah: [00:33:27] I mean, it's like, they think we all forgot, I swear to God.
Beth: [00:33:30] Monica Lewinsky has sued Bill Clinton for defamation for saying on television "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Okay. She sues him for defamation. She said he lied about this. How many people do you think in this country would have said, yeah, it makes a whole lot of sense that the department of justice would defend him in that lawsuit since he made that statement as the president, not as bill Clinton? This is not hard hypothesis.
Like that's what bothers me so much about this news cycle. Again, it's Kevin bacon. Like this just is what it is. These are the facts. They are undisputed. It is so clear what's going on here? It's so clear that it's improper impermissible shocks the conscience for the department of justice to be involved in this lawsuit.
And it will get waved away because everything gets waved away. I was reading Tim Miller, who's been on the podcast before, riding this morning about LOL nothing matters, Republicans, and about this just nihilism that has taken hold. And I think it's probably true that somewhere in the Trump administration, when they made this decision, To take on E. Jean Carol through the justice department, that there were people sitting around going well, that's really going to trigger the libs and I don't get allowing that to be your reason for existence.
I just don't get that.
Sarah: [00:34:59] So in my house, we use this technique called a reset breath. And I think before we move into your messages and what we can do about this, maybe we all need a little reset breath.
Okay. So these are not great events. It can feel overwhelming. We're using the term apocalyptic. I don't think hyperbolically so what can we do? Well, let's start with the most basic and most important voting. Beth I have been convicted that we all need to spread the gospel of voting. Early, in person, far and wide.
How do you feel about this?
Beth: [00:35:41] Sarah has been talking about the Holy spirit a lot lately. I think this is one where she feels like the Holy spirit is involved. I, I completely agree that voting early is, if it's available to you, the best option that we have, not only in this election, but in like all of them.
Sarah: [00:35:57] Yup.
Beth: [00:35:57] Creating a larger window for people to go in at a time that actually works for them where the risk of standing in a long line, not even to avoid viral exposure, but just to avoid standing in a long line that's unpredictable about when you might get out is a very sensible approach to doing democracy.
And so most States now have an option, and we'll put links in the show notes so you can find out what your choices are, but go in. Fill out your ballot, hand it back to a person, you know, it's there, you know, it's going to be counted and your civic duty is done. That is, I think. The gold standard of how to participate in this election.
Sarah: [00:36:39] So there are 10 States that you cannot vote in person early, Alabama, Connecticut, Delaware, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina. If I just listed your state, then your next task is easy. You need to lobby and advocate and vote for people who support early in-person voting.
Okay. So that's good. We got that. I think. As with everything during the pandemic, we're talking about risk assessment. And I think this is true. What I'm about to say is true for in-person voting and election day voting, which is voting is a low risk activity. There's a great article in the Atlantic. We're gonna link in the show notes that says it's about equivalent to go into the grocery store.
Now, if you have vulnerable members of your family, preexisting conditions, and you don't feel safe going to the grocery store and that's your risk assessment as it stands right now with COVID-19, good. You are an expert in your own risk assessment. So go ahead mail offer that absentee ballot. The tool we're linking to from Axios is fantastic.
It tells you every state's deadline for when you can request your ballot when your ballot is due. When you can start voting early in person, all that information, it's all listed out nicely. So we can all check on our States become well versed in that because people are going to ask you. You're going to be at a party or a book club on zoom, or I don't know, outside.
You're going to be on the phone. You're going to be in a Facebook thread and someone's going to ask. Have that information available. That is an act of citizenship. Understanding what happens in your state is an act of citizenship. You can go out and share that information and help educate your fellow citizens about how to assess their risk, how to look at all the options and choose the best one.
The other benefit of voting early in person, not just that you can secure your ballot and make sure you filled it out correctly. They usually have a sticker. If you have low risk, if you're comfortable going to the grocery store, if you're sending your kids to school and you're a young person, you know, without preexisting condition, you can help work on election day at the polls, usually filled by older people that are more vulnerable.
This is the citizenship we're talking about, guys. This is our moment.
Beth: [00:38:55] Axios tool is the only thing on the internet I can think of right now that's worthy of being viral. We should just be sharing the heck out of this tool so that people know what their choices are. And even if they don't open it, you and your face have popped up in their feed saying voting is important to me.
I want you to do it. I care about you going and doing this. And I think we need a lot more of that.
Sarah: [00:39:21] Okay. So we just talked about being on social media. We're getting a lot of questions about how do I respond when my friend, family member acquaintance sends this legislative laundry list of achievements from the Trump administration.
I don't know how many of you have seen it. I've definitely seen it. It is long. It is contained some positivity. That's another question we get is how do we talk about some good things the Trump administration has done because people ask me that and I want to be able to have an answer. Beth, you had a really good philosophy about these memes, lists, legislative achievement debate threads we all find ourselves in.
Beth: [00:40:05] I think a couple of things here, the first one is I think it's good to have one talking point about something that you think has worked under this administration. I do think that's connective. I think that's part of showing someone that you're taking the conversation seriously.
So for me, that talking point is criminal justice reform at the federal level. I think it's incomplete, but it was a huge accomplishment. It's very difficult to get criminal justice reform legislation passed and that happened. And it happened in no small part because of the Trump administration, that wasn't just Congress as achievement.
And so I give them a lot of credit for that. Okay. So that's my one connective talking point. After that, though, you don't have to.
Sarah: [00:40:46] You're like, that's my one. I got my, everybody just get their one
Beth: [00:40:48] Just get their one. Look. A lot of being a good communicator is having made decisions ahead of time, about what you're going to say.
Sarah: [00:40:55] You're about to say two sides of the same coin, right? You're about to say. What you're saying is true too. Like, you don't have to respond to everything they list and you don't have to have a comprehensive list of everything he's ever done that you agree with. Don't feel like you have to go comb the record and make sure everything you might have not have a problem with you have at ready. I think one is perfectly acceptable.
Beth: [00:41:15] Yeah. That's the thing you really don't have to meet people where the meme is. You don't, the meme is not the boss of you.Word. And so if you want to have a good,
Sarah: [00:41:28] we need a tee shirt for that. The meme is not the boss of you.
Beth: [00:41:31] If you want to have a good conversation with someone about this, the first step is pulling back from the meme.
Okay. I am happy that you asked me about this. Here's my one talking point that I think has gone really well. Here are my priorities, because what that mean does not represent is a prioritized list of how this president has met this moment. And that's what we're voting for. Someone who can meet the moment in terms of what the priorities call for.
And so here are what my priorities look like. And the related question that we get about this is like, can I take small victories or do I need to cut people off? Can I love my people, even though I am deeply disappointed in them. And they are deeply disappointed in me for being disappointed in them. And the answer is yes, of course you can.
We do that in every other aspect of being in relationships. This is not the first time you've disappointed your dad. It's not, and it's not the first time he's disappointed you. If we're all being honest about it, we know how to do this. We act like it's something different because it's political and look, the consequences of it are bigger than the one time he overreacted and hurt your feelings.
The consequences are bigger and it is important to record, but that is even better reason. If you are a person of any level of privilege and this is within a relationship where you're safe. That is all the more reason to stay in it and go toe to toe here and to say to people, I hear you and I love you.
And I am sad about what you're saying right now. I am disappointed in what I'm hearing from me right now. I find it really hard to reconcile with everything else I know about you. And I imagine that you feel the same way about me. But I think we are able to love each other through this.
Sarah: [00:43:28] Yeah. I mean, I just think you say this all the time, like narrate what's going on.
It feels like in these moments, like where a mother says, I can't believe you'd post that. I'm so disappointed. You actually have my aunt do this to my cousin. I'm so disappointed in you. And I chimed in and say, Hey, don't be disappointed in her. She's working out how she feels about this. She's trying to be a critical thinker.
There's nothing to be disappointed about here. You know, I feel like when we, when that disappointment, like we feel it, but when it gets wielded as a weapon, like just say that I feel like you're trying to shame me. I feel like you're trying to make me feel bad. And I think that's harmful to our relationship.
You know what I mean? Like, I feel like when it goes to that space, when I'm trying to do the, Oh, don't you just feel terrible. Like, that's never good. That's shame. That's damaging to relationship. And also I think in those moments, especially when it's a family member and it's so fraught, especially if it's coming over a text or email or messenger, give that time to breathe.
Like, feel it breathe through it. Don't react immediately. Like, we just need to let it, let it breathe a little bit, just given a moment because it's going to be incredibly triggering and you're going to be in a very emotional space. And I don't, it's not that I don't think emotions are valuable. And I think narrating those emotions and articulating how you feel are hugely important, but a little time and space will help your ability to articulate that.
I think
Beth: [00:44:59] that's such good advice. And another thing that happens in these political conversations that we have experience with in other aspects of our lives is. People like doing I'm rubber and you're glue. We hear from listeners all the time, especially in conversations with their parents, that they are berated for having an opinion, while being told that they are berating someone for having an opinion.
Sarah: [00:45:25] Yes. Been there. I've had that experience.
Beth: [00:45:28] Both people are making choices in this conversation. Just like every other one, my husband and I just had a little argument, a small one where we did this. You're taking this the wrong way. No, you are. Okay, cool. Now what ? You know, but when you can say that out loud, the argument starts to become more productive.
If you can't say that out loud and you just have one person standing and saying, you're doing this to me and not taking ownership that they're doing it to you too, it can't go anywhere. And so just calling that out for what it is, mom, I love you. And I hear you saying you feel disrespected in your opinion right now.
I feel disrespected by you in mind too. So I acknowledge what you're feeling and that it stinks. What do we want to do about this? Yes, you're not in a separate sphere from the sphere. You already know how to be in inside this relationship.
Sarah: [00:46:23] Yeah, cause I bet you've already had some disagreements about like parenting partners, educational and career path spending choices.
Like I'm sure there's, there's some, uh, material and the back catalog you could look to and think about. I just, you know, because we have decided, and because often it's true, so much of what's involved in politics is identity level. Then it feels like if I'm pushing through this conflict, or if I'm staying in conflict about this, it's really about how you feel about me and look, sometimes it is like, that's what we see, but bubble up, right?
Your support of Trump. This is a excellent transition into a listener testimony, we're going to share in just a second. It feels like this is about me, but look, that's it. You know, parenting decisions, our identity level spouse, partnership stuff. That's identity level too. And I do think there's this generational aspect of like, If there's any disagreement, there's disrespect.
And that's what really bothers me. That sort of narrative of, if you disagree with me, if you then you're disrespecting me, if you think that the way I, the, my support for Donald Trump makes me a racist you're disrespecting me, that we can't exist in a place of respect and real, real disagreement with someone.
I think it's just, it's, that's a, that's a thread that appears in family member conversations I have, and it drives me crazy.
Beth: [00:47:51] I think one of the things that comes up a lot, when people are asking us these questions is this underlying sense that they don't want politics to change their families, but friends it's going to, everything's going to change your family.
All those things. There are listed divorce changes. Your family money changes your family. A diagnosis, changes your family, the birth of a child, the death of a loved one. Your family is a living breathing organism that is constantly changing and of course politics are going to change your family. We cannot prevent that.
And so the healthier thing is to do what we would do with all of those other external and internal stressors and accept it. Okay. This is a big gap that we're experiencing in our feelings about this president and in our feelings about what the direction of our country ought to be. It's a really big gap and it will transform our family and we get to decide in what way it does.
And I would like that to be in a healthy way that works on all of us.
Sarah: [00:48:52] It's it's possible. We are getting so many messages right now from listeners who say I did it. I opened up a direct messenger and said, I'd like to talk about this with you offline. I called the person, we had coffee. Like I see it. This makes me so teary every time in one of our Instagram posts, I posted one the other day about individualism in the evangelical church.
And there were like three or four people who tagged someone and said, let's talk about this at our next coffee date. And it's just, I felt like my heart grew three sizes. Like, I feel you, you are not alone. Y'all are out there, you're doing it there. You're messaging us. And every time you share it with us, it's like, I swell with hope because you out there doing that work is the most important thing.
And no matter what the election results are, it will continue to give me hope. It will continue to pay dividends and it will continue to be the essential work. For all of us as citizens. And, you know, it sounds, I feel silly saying it, but like, I'm just so proud. So, so proud.
Beth: [00:49:59] And because all of you are the whole point of this whole thing.
We're going to end today with one of your voices. And this is Samantha who we had such a pleasure to meet in person in Colorado when we were there last year. And I spent a good amount of time talking privately with Samantha. I really enjoyed meeting her. She is someone that I know you would just love if you met her.
And so we're happy to share her voice with you. I think Sarah description of this as testimony is really important. And I think this is a good way to walk into that space of accepting that this is too too important, not to change our families. And it's also too important for us to just write off how it changes our families.
This is why we do the work.
Samantha: [00:50:46] Dear Beth and Sarah,
First, I want to thank you for your show. I found your podcast via Jen Hatmaker shortly after the 2016 election. And it has provided a safe and emotionally nurturing respite. While I continue to recover from the trauma of the past three and a half years. From the bottom of my heart, thank you to your entire team and to your families, who I'm sure sacrificed precious time with you, both so that you can produce such incredible content.
I was able to meet you both briefly while you were in Denver for the evolving faith conference. I came to your meetup at Stella's and sat with Beth and Elise for a little while after your event ended.
Since then, my husband accepted a new job in Los Angeles. And so we moved across the country. I'm writing to you today because I wanted to share the feelings that I've been struggling with as we lead up to the 2020 election. I'm an Indian American woman, daughter of immigrants who settled in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, where I was born and lived until I was 22 years old.
I'm a first generation American. My family is also Christian and somehow ended up deeply entrenched in the evangelical Republican Christian committee. The day after the 26th election was maybe one of the hardest days of my life. I woke up knowing that so many people I love voted for Trump. And to me it felt like a personal betrayal.
Trump's had so many terrible things about people of color and immigrants. And I couldn't reconcile how so many people claiming to be Christian could align themselves with a candidate who was so obviously racist as we approach the 2020 election. I find myself filled with anxiety. What if these friends vote for Trump again?
Will I be able to recover emotionally? I never spoke with these friends directly about how their vote for Trump impacted me. The truth is that I'm too scared to have this conversation. I'm too scared of how hurtful it will be to hear my closest friends say that they are still choosing to vote for a man who has caused so much heartache for so many Americans, but especially people of color and immigrants.
What I want to say to these friends is this, your vote for Trump hurt my feelings. When given the secrecy of a voting booth, you told the country that racism doesn't really matter to you. Your vote for Trump shows me that when the rubber hits the road, you will choose what's easiest and most comfortable for you and not step outside your comfort zone to stand with people of color.
You chose to vote for a man whose policies make this country more dangerous for people of color and immigrants. And that includes me by choosing to align yourself with someone who said such racist things during the election, you ultimately told me that you might believe what he says to be true. It makes me question our friendship and the level of unconscious bias that exists within it.
What if I didn't have an American sounding name or what if I was any other religion besides Christian? What if I spoke with an accent or what if I wore a hijab? Would you still have invited me into your home growing up? Would we have still been friends? Would you have still accepted me as one of your own? I don't know how I can continue to be friends with someone who threw their lot in with racism. It's so incredibly hurtful.
Like I said, I don't have the courage to have this hard and scary conversation with friends closest to me still after three and a half years, it's too painful and raw, but I want to make sure I'm doing as much as I have capacity for when it comes to healing relationships and voting Donald Trump out of office and speaking with Beth at Stella's.
She so graciously told me that maybe this isn't my fight to bear. That I should rely on my white allies to have these hard conversations. So I'm sharing this with you. I think this perspective is important and could maybe spur some healing and necessary conversations.
Sarah: [00:54:29] Thank you for staying with us through difficult headlines, difficult questions, but sharing Samantha's voice as sharing your voices always is leaves me with great hope and I hope it leaves all of you with hope as well until we talk to you again, keep it nuanced, y'all.