Trump Drama, Veepstakes, and the Kentucky Primary

Trump Drama, Veepstakes, and the Kentucky Primary.png

Topics Discussed:

  • Geoffrey Berman Firing

  • Reading Stabbing Attack

  • Conflict Between China and India

  • North Korea Destroys Embassy

  • John Bolton

  • Rosemary Ketchum

  • Trump Tulsa Rally

  • Veepstakes

  • Kentucky Senate Primary

  • Hope

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Episode Resources:

Transcript

200623_Pantsuit Politics_Trump Drama, Veepstakes, and the Kentucky Primary

Beth: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. We're so glad that you are joining us for today's episode. We just have a number of things that we need to catch up on today. So we're going to do that in our first segment, we're going to talk a little foreign policy. We're going to talk about them. Geoffrey Berman firing, which is going to get through some things that we have not had a chance to dive into.

And then in the main segment, you know, a few of you, just a handful have expressed interest in our elections here in Kentucky. And this episode is coming out on primary day. So we're going to talk about what's going on in Kentucky. We're also going to talk about the, I don't know, presidential election, the vice presidency.

There are just a number of things that bring to mind how important and present that election is going to be. So we're going to hit all of those and we'll end, as we always do with what's on our mind outside of politics, 

Sarah: [00:00:44] we also have some exciting. News here at pantsuit politics. Next Friday, July 3rd will be our 500th episode.

And you know what? It's been a tough year. It's been a long road and we're ready to celebrate, and we are inviting you to celebrate with us. We want to hear your favorite episodes, your favorite moments, your journey as a pantsuit politics listener. So post on social media tag us, email us. Use the hashtag pantsuit politics, 500, we've got some really fun things planned and I am very excited.

Beth: [00:01:22] I also want to say thank you for your reactions to our Juneteenth episode. We put a lot of thought into. Whether to do five things about Juneteenth, how to do it respectfully intelligently in a way that honors the moment doesn't take anything away from it. And your responses to that have been very helpful to us.

It's been a lot of good information and just affirming in a lot of ways. And we also decided that we are going to donate the ad revenue from that episode to black lives matter, Nelson. This is another thing, but in my head, it's like, do we share this publicly or not? It's a hard call. And I think that it's important to let you know how we're thinking about these issues to keep the window wide open on our conversations and also to.

Make sure that we're all thinking together about the fact that a donation is one good step and it's not enough. And that we can't write checks on our journey to be fully anti-racist and to meet what this moment in history requires of us. So, 

Sarah: [00:02:23] But it is an excellent first step. 

Beth: [00:02:26] It is an excellent first step and we are trying to take it in numerous aspects of our own lives, including our work.

And so we just appreciate all of you and your responses to that conversation very much. 

Sarah: [00:02:37] Also, it is still pride month and we are still celebrating here at pantsuit politics and on our other podcast, the nuanced life, if you have not checked that out, we try to commemorate the moments in life that aren't the banner events that really get all the attention.

So weddings are great. And baby showers and births and retirements and graduations, they are all so important to the journey that we all go on as a human being. But there are other moments, especially as related to the journey of our LGBTQ listeners. And so we're going to commemorate several of those on Wednesday's episode of the nuance life.

And we hope that you guys will check it out over the weekend.

Beth: [00:03:19] We got lots of questions about the botch dismissal of the lead attorney for the Southern district of new York's. U S attorney office. And we thought we would spend a minute walking through what happened there. 

Sarah: [00:03:36] It was a little entertaining if I'm being honest, because the justice department came out and said, he's fired.

No, they said he resigned. And then Geoffrey Berman stood up and said, Oh no, I didn't. I did not resign. No one told me I did not resign. And Twitter, of course erupted. Then the justice department was like, no president. Trump fired you. And I think there was a moment where president Trump was like, who's that new number?

Who does. I'm sorry. I found it a little entertaining. I'm being a little flip, but I think it kind of deserves it. 

Beth: [00:04:17] There are some really thorny legal issues at stake in this firing. So, Berman was appointed by Jeff sessions. Remember when he was the attorney general way back at the beginning of the Trump administration, Jeff sessions.

So through Donald Trump's administration, Geoffrey Berman was appointed to head this office and this office is a very big deal. It has jurisdiction over some of the most important crimes that are committed in our country. 

Sarah: [00:04:41] Michael Cohen, all these names you hear so much of that came out of the Southern district of New York.

Beth: [00:04:45] It's wall street, it's mafia stuff. It's it just runs the gamut. Terrorism cases get prosecuted there. It's a very important office. And so. He was appointed on an interim basis as like everybody in the Trump administration gets appointed to fill the vacancy there. And under the vacancy statute, that appointment goes for 120 days.

Well, at the end of 120 days, we did not have a Senate confirmed U.S. attorney for that office. And so the federal judges in that district voted to keep him on. Which is kind of weird. And it took me a minute to think like, is that right? Is that how it works? But that is indeed part of what the statute says can happen.

And so he's in place. And bar in the resignation letter is acting like he has authority to just fill the vacancy now. But the vacancy statute only applies when someone is not in the office and Berman was in the office by the vote of those federal district judges. And so that's why he had a leg to stand on and bar couldn't just summarily say, well, the president says you're fired.

I mean, I think Berman still could have fought that, but what he got out of. Out of saying, no, I'm going to take you on is switching from the person that bar wanted to put in his chair immediately to the deputy that Berman had hired. And who's been part of all this important work that he's been doing. So I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to this guy for allowing himself to be thrust into the national spotlight this way.

To ensure that his successor is someone that he trusts and thinks will carry the office forward with integrity. Now that's only temporary too, because the administration can nominate the person that they want, but that has to get through the Senate. And Lindsey Graham has indicated that it will not just be sailing through because the person they want to put in the chair has no experience as a federal prosecutor whatsoever.

He's just tired of his job at the sec. So it was very interesting set of circumstances. 

Sarah: [00:06:50] And I think it is reflective of the growing discontent among Republican senators over the purge of several legal positions within the administration, the inspector generals, this prosecutor, and the idea that no, you will not just install loyalists from top to bottom.

I mean, it's not even just Lindsey Graham. I think it's a lot of Republican senators who are finally pushing back. The New York times had a really interesting analysis. That's like, At the end of the day, some of this is especially if you're Lindsey Graham, the perception that Donald Trump is seeing a decrease in his political power.

We'll talk about that more with the Tulsa rally, but you know, this administration has no ability to just read the room. If you already have allies, your allies in the Senate saying this purge of inspector generals is not acceptable. Then going after the U S attorney in the Southern district of New York in this particular way was not a wise move.

Like you don't have extra capital. Can you not see that? Why would you spend it here? Um, but I don't think they have any ability to see that. I think that especially him, if they're, if they're acting on his orders, the self awareness of, well, do I have extra political capital right now to spend on this is just completely and totally absent from the calculus.

Beth: [00:08:10] I think it's hard for him, meaning the president to think that way because no one has ever shown him that his political capital is limited. In the Republican party. You have a bunch of people in the United States, Senate who have with the limited exception of Mitt Romney. And occasionally others on very tiny issues, but you have a bunch of people who threw out a lot of what the principles were supposed to be in order to support this president.

And when you have everyone playing such a transactional game, you ought to know that at some point you can overplay your hand. 

Sarah: [00:08:47] Right? 

Beth: [00:08:48] Right. Because he's pushed and pushed and that's not happened. I think he has come to believe that the new principal is Trumpism and that's just not going to be the case, depending on how bad the polling numbers get.

Things could change quite drastically for him quickly that doesn't say anything good about the integrity of the folks serving in the Senate. It's also just the truth of what we've learned over the last four years. 

Sarah: [00:09:16] I mean, I'm not looking to give Lindsey Graham a gold star. Let me be abundantly clear about that.

I think it is just an indication of the political tealeaves, their decision making about him up until this point has been political and it will continue to be political. And so them shifting is indicative of the fact that his political situation right now is shifting. And we'll talk about that more in the main segment, obviously.

Beth: [00:09:41] Before we do, let's turn our attention to foreign policy issues for a brief moment, because a lot's been going on in the world. It's been hard to pay attention to because we've had so much happening domestically and we won't even scratch the surface of all of the things that are simmering around the globe.

I don't want to say that too strongly because there are always things simmering around the globe. Uh, but there are a few things that are really worth our attention beginning in. England where there was an attack in Redding in a park, three, people were killed, three others were injured. This was a stabbing attack.

That's being investigated as an act of terrorism. And it's really getting a lot of attention in British media right now. I've been trying to follow that because Britain has had a terrible history of terror attacks, especially in London, this hits close to home for me because Chad and I were at London bridge the day before, one of the terrible status stabbing attacks took place there.

So we're just thinking of everyone in England. We'll keep following the story. As there's more of an understanding about what perhaps motivated this attack. I'm sure we'll revisit 

Sarah: [00:10:44] it. Then. Of course, we have seen increased tension between China and India along their shared border in the Himalayans. So this is called the line of actual controls.

Got a really fancy name. Um, there's no weapons allowed because it's. Way up high in the mountains. And so this conflict was just kind of crazy. You had violence between the Chinese and Indian soldiers with just like sticks and rocks. 20 Indian soldiers died many due to exposure because of the environment up there.

But this does seem to be an instance of China taking their moment, taking the chance to expand the roads, living up there. Expand their presence leading up there. You know, India has been hit very hard by COVID-19 is interesting. I read a lot of reporting that the behavior of the Indian government in the face of this attack is very different than the sort of emotional level in the Indian press.

Indian press is speaking with a lot of anger and intensity. Whereas the government seems to be trying to take the heat out of the situation, because I think that they're. They're taxed right now, trying to deal with COVID-19. Their resources are taxed as are many countries around the world. And China knows it 

Beth: [00:12:05] was, I think really important to think about here is that you have two nuclear powers, you know, both China and India have nuclear weapons.

You have a history in this particular part of the Himalayas. This area called  has been disputed forever because it's just not easy to draw lines on a map around it. And as Sarah said, it is uninhabitable. I mean, it is like 14,000 feet, which is twice the altitude where you start to get sick and it's rugged.

It's freezing cold. But it has been the subject of dispute between these two countries for a very long time. There was an treaty in the late nineties where they said they can't use guns anymore. So that's why you have to like heavily militarized countries, basically in a brawl with one another. But the history also tells India that it is seriously outgunned by China.

China just. Bulldozed over India. The last time there was actually military conflict in this area. So in addition to everything, Sarah said, you know, COVID-19 is a factor on both sides. China is trying to distract from a lot of what's going on with COVID-19 and China is really trying to be that infrastructure superpower, but India recently completed a road that goes through this area as well in all, all weather path to help its troops here.

So even as the governments, really from both countries are trying to turn the heat down, coming out of this skirmish. There's also a report this morning that India has asked Russia to hurry up and ship some weapons to it for this region. So everybody's building up their troop presence here, and this is an important one to keep an eye on.

Another really important border to speak that's happening happened in that demilitarized zone area of North and South Korea. So there is a line there that separates the two countries. That's very important. That is always tension filled and a few years ago, Right around that line, North and South Korea built what is like an embassy.

They don't have formal diplomatic relations with each other, but they have this building where they do come together to talk. And North Korea bombed it last week in a. Well, an unmistakable symbol that North Korea is finished talking, at least for now, it is upset about a number of things. It is also probably trying to distract from COVID-19 and the way that it has been handled in that country.

And it's just depressing. Because South Korea has put forward a lot of effort to trying to keep this conflict manageable. But North Korea, his excuse is that defectors from North Korea. So people who have fled that regime and gotten into South Korea have been using balloons and drones. To drop leaflets over on the North Korean side with anti North Korean propaganda, like talking about their experience there and how bad their regime is.

And that has just really angered the North Koreans. Again, experts think that that is like a Tempest in a teapot that that's a cover for what they might've done anyway, um, because of other motivations, but that's the story of why the North Korean government bombed this building. 

Sarah: [00:15:38] It seems like, as we're talking about all these foreign policy issues, Beth, it might be a good moment to address 

Beth: [00:15:45] John 

Sarah: [00:15:46] Bolton's book, the room where it happened and his take on the Trump administration's approach to foreign policy.

What do you think? Are you excited to talk about it? 

Beth: [00:15:53] Well, I haven't read the book yet. I've read a lot of excerpts like everyone else. And I watched most of his interview with Martha Raddatz. We fell asleep before it was over, which is not a commentary on Martha Raddatz, who I think is an exceptionally good interviewer.

I have a lot of thoughts about how that was packaged and put together. I did not think the editing of it served her well and did her justice, but I thought she did a good job asking him questions. You know, here's the thing like the top story is we sat down to record this morning on Twitter is that Sarah Huckabee Sanders had told everybody, John Bolton was drunk on power.

And that sounds right, 

Sarah: [00:16:28] but can I just stop? Cause that little excerpt she shared from her book, which is not an accident. Was so dumb. I thought the best example you have is he didn't want to ride in the bus. Like I clicked it thinking, okay, I do want to hear like a fair criticism of John Bolton. Like I want to hear another administrative shin official.

Sure. Say. Well, let me tell you the other side of him and the best they have is he didn't want to ride on the bus with us. I thought that was problematic. 

Beth: [00:16:57] I just think everything that comes out of this administration has to be taken with several shakers of salt because you know, the people who worked in this had an agenda that led them to say yes to working in this.

And they're going to have an agenda on the way out and. That's human nature, to some extent. And the volume on human nature is turned all the way up on the folks who've been in this white house. I also listened to John Bolton and I don't hear anything that sounds wrong to me, or that sounds inconsistent with press reporting, or that sounds inconsistent again with what the president says himself every day.

And I think. The priorities of this president are so clear. He tells us in a variety of ways all the time. Exactly what John Bolton's thesis seems to be, which is foreign policy is less important than Donald Trump to Donald Trump. Yeah. 

Sarah: [00:17:51] Look, I don't like John Bolton. I don't think John Bolton is a particularly good person.

What I do think is that John Bolton's agenda. Is not solely personal. I think it's relevant to these foreign policy discussions because I think John Bolton has a very strong view of the world. It is not my view of the world. I find it to be a particularly dangerous view of the world, but I think he has it.

And I think he went in there thinking I'll do what I can to push forward. My worldview, that these particular regimes are dangerous, that we have a role in taking them out. And so when he gets there and it's. A disaster. And he sees like, Oh my gosh, this is like way worse than I thought it was. This is a threat to the exact things that I'm worrying about, that these particular regimes are gaining power.

Like I believe all that because I think that's consistent with who he shown himself to be through many administrations. 

Beth: [00:18:44] I agree with you and his frustration that there is no coherent principle underlying the Trump administration's foreign policy makes a lot of sense to me and shows through, you know, just today we're learning that the Trump administration is planning to take a number of trips out of Germany, which is a huge problem and is getting bipartisan backlash.

And again, I think it's that he doesn't really understand why those troops are in Germany. They are not there to protect the Germans. They are there to protect American interest. Again, this is a lot about NATO, about Russian aggression, but you have to have an understanding of the history of Europe to follow that.

And I can see John Bolton, just being incredibly frustrated that the president doesn't have that understanding at the same time when president Trump says, well, I'm going to pull these troops because Germany isn't carrying its weight. It's not doing its fair share. That is a very John Bolton line of thinking, you know, that every country in the world ought to prioritize their military positioning the way that America does and the way that people.

But like John Bolton believed that Germany has not spent the kind of money on militarization that we have Germany has put money into a whole lot of other priorities that we don't prioritize on the federal level or in many of our States. So in one sense, the president is right about this and in another, his rightness reflects.

A very military heavy mentality that the rest of the world may not share. And if we really respect the sovereignty of other nations, there's a point at which we have to go, okay. They don't, and I can understand my John Bolton is really frustrated about all of that. And as much as I disagree with John Bolton on a lot of things, I think he has a perspective that belongs in the room somewhere.

We talked about this when he was fired. If I were. In the oval office, I would want someone who thinks like John Bolton there to like check my instincts at well, let's sit down and talk to them. Right. You know, th that's, there's nothing wrong with his worldview. I don't think it should be the dominant one, but I think it's interesting and important and at least grounded in an understanding of history and the way the world works, that the president didn't have.

So I get it. And I also get the backlash and I also think it's important to hear him out. Yeah, 

Sarah: [00:21:08] as much of an opposite direction as you possibly can go from John Bolton for our compliment this week, we wanted to share an interview with Rosemary Ketchum, who was just elected to her city council in West Virginia, the first transgender public service in West Virginia's history.

And we thought this interview was just. Lovely and empowering and enlightening. And we wanted to share it with you this week as our 

Beth: [00:21:36] compliment. Thank you to Rosemary Ketchum for spending time with us. And next step, we're going to talk about 2020 elections.

Interview with Rosemary Ketchum

Beth: [00:00:00] We are so excited to be joined by Rosemary Ketchum who just won her race in West Virginia. Rosemary, tell us about where you're from. I don't want to say something that's an intro that doesn't fully capture your city. So tell us about where you're from and your race.

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:00:14] Thank you so much for having me. I live in Wheeling, West Virginia. We are in the Northern panhandle of West Virginia, and we are a small town of a little less than 30,000 folks, and our city moniker is, we are called the Friendly City. So I think that's true.

Beth: [00:00:32] I love it. And you ran for city council. I understand your background is in mental health. And I heard you on MSNBC talking about how important it is to you to have city council oriented, to a lot of sort of regular city problems through the lens of mental health. Can you tell us about that?

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:00:50] For sure.  I think across the country, we are experiencing a mental health crisis that is compounded by so many of the other cultural things that we're going through. And in small towns like Wheeling, West Virginia, that's really no different. We have. a lot of mental health issues in our community, that, also, extend to homelessness, which we experienced here in the city.

So,  I'm very interested in taking my experience both as a community organizer, but as a mental health professional, into the realm of politics, I feel like it's something we should have done maybe 30 years ago, 40 years ago, but  better late than never, I guess. 

Beth: [00:01:27] Yeah. I just read a, I think either a study or a poll that Americans are basically like at their lowest levels of mental health ever recorded, which I thought was pretty discouraging.

So what inspired you to run? 

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:01:42] I never thought that I would run for office. I never thought that politics was my space.  I have been a community organizer for years in the state of West Virginia, working on issues like poverty and mental health, LGBTQ plus, advocacy and racial justice.

And I really love the idea of being kind of scrappy and underdog and sticking it to the man. But I would become incredibly frustrated with the experience because,  we would make strides forward. We take two steps forward and then take one step back. And oftentimes the obstacles that we were experiencing were not necessarily the structural or systemic problems that we see in our state, but the elected officials who were essentially the gatekeepers, to what we wanted. And so I found it incredibly frustrating having to convince them,  about all of the things that we cared about. Menstrual equity, racial justice, LGBTQ issues. And,  I came to the realization, after joining, the Can't Wait campaign here in West Virginia, for former, gubernatorial candidate, Steven Smith, that it is much more efficient and more fun to replace elected officials than try to convince them. 

wasn't sure if that was true, until I won my race.

Beth: [00:03:01] What was it like to run during a pandemic? And just to be able to talk about these issues in a fresher way than maybe folks in Wheeling are accustomed to. 

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:03:10] It was unique I'll say, because I have participated  as a volunteer in other campaigns in the past, both advocacy campaigns and political campaigns, and everyone seems unprecedented, I think, but to have been elected and to have run my own campaign. In perhaps the most unprecedented campaign season, was fascinating.

So,  we knew that we were at a disadvantage here because,  I was not born in Wheeling. I didn't raise my kids here. I didn't go to high school here and in so many small towns and in small town politics, That stuff is really important because that's how people relate to you on a human level.

So I really needed to push past that barrier and do everything I could to introduce myself to folks in a new way. So, we people called us crazy cause we started a year early. And for city council races, people don't do that. They, if they care at all, they don't run more than five months before election day.

So,  we didn't want to take it, take the easy route and we didn't want to sink,  that we just had it in the bag. So we started a year before election day and my goodness, we started door-knocking and hosting events. And then COVID hit and we  had to scramble. We had no idea what to do or how to restrategize.

But we were incredibly grateful that we started at all because so many of the other candidates had not even begun campaigning, before COVID. And so, and  the petty part of me goes like, ha ha. And then the more humane part of me says that's okay. Absolutely terrible because  there were other candidates, not, maybe not in my ward, but also in my ward who had really wonderful platforms.

And I thought would have also made pretty good, elected officials, but didn't get the opportunity because of, because of COVID and the quarantine. So we definitely decided to restrategize and focus on social media, which we had built up. prior to that, But it was, and still is a very odd and unique, but innovative experience.

 I think we're learning a lot here. 

Beth: [00:05:17] What did you learn as you were, before COVID hit, when you were out knocking doors and then afterwards watching like sort of social media engagement about what your constituents were really concerned about. 

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:05:30] I had never run for elected office in the past, so I didn't know what to expect, but my insecurities made me believe that when I knocked on a door, I needed to have every answer to every question that could ever poem.

And I needed the details and the statistics. And if I didn't have a binder that was 500 pages deep, I wasn't trying, and I never opened the binder once because truthfully you can have the statistics and you should, and you should have the data and you should, you should try that hard. But I learned that folks are really concerned with whether they can trust that this person step, is honest and vulnerable and able to do the job, and that they can be counted on, one of the biggest, concerns.

So many of the voters that I spoke to had was about. honesty and transparency and accessibility. I thought they were going to ask me,  about the city budget and about,  what, I'm going to do the minutia of vacant properties or straight cats or something. but the, the issues became,  if they started at something specific, they always ended.

On a larger, more broad, note regarding trust in politics. And I had some folks tell me  they haven't trusted a politician since 1990. And  there's nothing I can do about that. But I also had folks who told me that,  you were the first person running for office that's ever knocked on my door and.

It meant a lot to them and it meant, I think even more to me. so  I learned so much in this experience just as in my own humanity. Yes. Some things as an electric official, whatever I run again, what I could do should do. but I learned so much that I think impacts my own mental health and my own humanity.

Beth: [00:07:20] How did you talk with people about their views of politicians? I imagine. And it was strange for someone who's been an activist to be saddled with that politician label, as you were having those discussions. So did you find that anything really advanced the conversation?

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:07:35] Yes. when I was a kid, I always wanted to be a journalist.  I admired folks like Anne Curry and Diane Sawyer because I thought, Oh, these are the people who are telling the stories and helping people. And they're compassionate and intelligent. And. I thought for the longest time I wanted to be a journalist.

And then I realized that that work, you have to be unbiased. You, you should not,  necessarily, be biased and spread your political opinions. And I don't have the willpower or self control for that. So I thought that's not for me. And, and so when I went into community organizing, that's when I was able to be as partisan as I wanted to be on the issues I wanted to advocate for. And really, I think I was liberated in that space. And so running for office and a nonpartisan office, was also fascinating because I had to not shift what I believe, not shift what I advocate for, but the language that I use and some people might call that calculated or, Oh, you're really a politician now.

But I find that you should be using the language. People understand,  if somebody literally speaks a different language to me, I could speak all day and they wouldn't understand, but if I can change the way I speak, if I can change the way that I might frame a conversation, then we can get somewhere.

So I'm sure there were plenty of folks who met me and thought, I don't want anything to do with this person. They believe this, this, this, and this, but when we would talk about homelessness or we, would talk about making properties or the local playground, all of that other stuff went away.

And we were just two people talking about issues that mattered in our backyards. And  for me on a larger scale, focusing on federal politics is so frustrating. I know we had a huge SCOTUS win, and I'm incredibly grateful, but that does not happen every day. You know, usually it's the long and hard work of it, and that can be really hopeless and make you feel really helpless sometimes. but when we focus on local politics, things can get done pretty quickly. I mean, you can speak to your mayor or your city council on a Monday and see some results by the end of the week. And so, I hope that we have kind of a new political shift toward the untapped power of local governments.

And, and for me, it really helped me connect with the voters in my ward, and, and learn a little more about what it means to connect with, with other people on a human level.  I think we start believing politics is all about. policy and it, of course is, but at the, at its base it's humanity.

And when we can figure out how we dig to the bottom of it, I think that's when we really see results.

Beth: [00:10:11] I had a very similar experience. When I ran for city commission the first time, it was such a positive, way to interact with the people of my town and to get that feedback. and if I can offer you some unsolicited advice, one to one, I think the hardest part is that you really lose any benefit of the doubt that you had running as a first time candidate, like the second you step into, and you're officially a politician, and you're not seeking people out, but they're seeking you out, often to complain, that you then, then you're up against that. politician reputation just amplifies and expands.

And I wonder, how do you plan to keep this momentum?  what are your strategies as you move  from being a candidate to, an actual official, like what's your plan to stay engaged with their constituents and not let that, that national environment sort of infect your conversations at a local level?

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:11:05] Great question. I've been reading a book by Brene Brown. I read the entire. Gifts of Imperfection on a plane once. And I always go back to this, the idea that vulnerability is the birthplace of creativity and honesty and connection, and I can remain vulnerable, which is not easy to do, especially when you may be attacked for a position or maybe attacked for not taking a position.

That's really hard, especially right now this morning, I was listening to Taylor Swift's,  You Need to Calm Cown because I was like, Oh my goodness, hold online. and, and I've yet to really, adapt to the national attention, although I love it and I think it's,  it's largely positive. remaining vulnerable, I think is going to be really key and, and not pretending.

That I'm an expert on every issue or that I, I know exactly what I'm going to do at every turn. I think that turns people off when they think, and it's for failure. I would rather somebody tell me, I don't really know, but I'm willing to learn and I want to work on it. Versus  being defensive and saying, I got this, I know what I'm doing, why even question,  my ability. So I hope to bring that  to our local politics and, and hopefully,  it saves my own mental health. I think my,  experiences and mental health professional will help me a lot cause I have the cell phone number of  every therapist in a 30 mile radius. So God forbid, I, I think I'm set up pretty well.

Beth: [00:12:35] I love that. What would a newly elected council, woman Rosemary Ketchum say to the Rosemary Ketchum who was considering running for office?

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:12:45] Oh, my goodness. That's a really, really good question. I would say. Fear is not the boss. I feel that so many folks who just want to run either, never say it out loud because they're afraid or they never even want to admit it to themselves that it's possible because it's scary to run for office. It's vulnerable and you have to,  be open to criticism and, and, in so many ways, accept it, and hope that you can get it so you can be better.

I would say to myself a year plus ago, I would say fear is not the boss. I would say, tone your hair, it looks brassy and I would say, start building your coalition, because that is, I think really what, propelled me to not just win, but connect with my community is building a coalition of really, really good people.

I don't think you should run for office alone if you think you can, maybe you can, but  it would have been a lot less fun and a lot less effective had I decided go it alone.

Beth: [00:13:46] Well, huge. Congratulations. We would love to hear how things progress as you get into the work of it. Thank you so much for spending time with us.

Rosemary Ketchum: [00:13:54] Thank you for having me. I apprciate it

Sarah: [00:13:56] Thank you so much.

End of Interview

Sarah: [00:21:54] Beth. I would like to kick off this segment with what I would like to call a. Petty precursor, a petty pronouncement, a petty proclamation, which is I'm with John Fabro. I think mocking the size of the Tulsa rally is petty. And also we deserve it because it's been hard and I was worried and I do think it's important beyond just the.

Real glee. I felt as the reports rolled in that it was a disaster. I mean, it felt like Christmas morning, I'm just going to be real, honest and vulnerable. Like I was filled with joy and happiness as we learned that this was a massive underestimation of the crowd size. And so I just, I'm just going to own that.

I'm going to be honest about it. And I just feel like that's, that's what I need to put out there as we begin this conversation. 

Beth: [00:23:02] Well, having heard that, um, I will share that I watched a lot of this, um, because I was at my parents' house and the TV was on. My first reaction to the crowd size was just relief because I was really concerned about a gigantic group of people in Tulsa spending hours inside.

It was, you know, the, the whole rally was just like, Conceptualized as a big middle finger to healthcare experts and public health experts. And so I was just relieved that a lot of people took a pass on the invitation to come be around other people, shouting indoors for a prolonged period of time. You know, I followed some of the K-pop fans, you know, signed up with fake information and all of that.

And. My real feeling, as I looked at all of that coverage was, you know, we have an entire generation of young people telling us in numerous ways that they have rightly concluded that their elders have failed them. And many of those folks are too young to vote and they are telling us in every way they can with every tool at their disposal.

You all have let us down and we are not happy about it. And to them, I say way to take social action to express yourself. I also am here in the last year of my thirties, realizing that I am one of those elders now. And so spending a whole bunch of my time and energy. Cheering on this Epic troll proves their points.

Like I need to be doing better than just feeling like they really stuck it to Brad Parscale this weekend. Um, and so I had real complicated feelings about the whole thing. 

Sarah: [00:24:53] Well, I mean, I think it's true. I was relieved because I thought it was a public health. Disaster in the waiting. I was relieved because it feels like to me, even among Donald Trump's base, that things are shifting and that it is easy to complain about a mask on Facebook or to say in private conversations that you think Corona virus is a hoax when it comes to, you know, when, when it's time to put pedal to the metal.

Oh, wait, I don't really think I want to go at risk things. Risk. My life was the last of those. I love it. It makes me feel like the reality of Corona virus is reaching depths. Maybe we were underestimating. So that's, I think that was one thing that I was like, thank God. And because I. You know, there was a focus group that came out that said nine out of 10 of Trump's voters are still with them.

And I thought that does not sound right to me. It doesn't sit. Now look, we are, of course we are anecdotal in a self selective group over here at painted politics, but we hear from so many people that say voted for him and it was a mistake I will not make again. And so I just, I thought that does not sound right to me.

And I thought, man, if he gets out there has this big crowd and people look like they've not budged a. But like an inch from, from a pandemic and all this racial unrest, it is going to be really discouraging. He's going to Crow about it. I don't want to hear that. And so I was just so relieved. So really that surely to God, there are some things that are big enough that it will move people, even members of his base or sort of the, the outer reaches of his base, I guess, is what I would say.

And also again, just being petty, the idea that they were doing this rally to get him out of his funk was so offensive to me. And so when it just was a disaster and made his funk worse, there's a lot of me that just wanted to be like, ha ha there's you're 

Beth: [00:26:52] right. I think this affirmed choices that media have been making about him too.

There's so much pressure to just not let him tweet anymore or to block him on Facebook. Not cover the rallies, which I understand. And also I think it's good that the American public saw what he chose to focus on at this moment in his favorite spot, in the universe. What did he want to say? You wanted to say, I told them to slow testing down.

Now his people say that's a joke. The fact that they think that that is a joke, I think tells us enough. Right? Like he did not talk about race relations. He spent 14 minutes on his own ability to drink a glass of water. It is so clear going into this election, what his priorities are. Hmm. And I think it was good to have this very stark reminder of that.

It was interesting for me to watch this because Jane was sitting beside me and I was really nervous about that. You'd never know what he's gonna say. And, um, Jane's just getting to the place that, where I think she can handle it. And I think I can handle whatever the conversation becomes with her. She cannot contain her disdain for him.

It just permeates her entire being. But what really. Through me. I knew she felt that way was how often she looked at me and said, what is he talking about now? And the incoherence of the speech was really obvious when you were trying to like, live, explain it to a nine year old, because she was just like, I don't even know what he's talking about.

And there was a moment when he was talking about immigration and she said, what is he talking about? And I said, well, Jane, what he is trying to do right now is tell us the people who are in this regime. We are all white. We are all middle class. He is trying to tell us that we should be afraid of people from Mexico because they are criminals.

And she went like lost her mind. And I said, that's right. He is being very racist right now. And you need to know that and you need to know it's not okay. But just trying to track the conversation with her reminded me again, that it's almost, it's almost impossible. It's an impossible job to try to cover this in an organized way.

Well, I mean, 

Sarah: [00:29:07] also the answer is always himself. What's he talking about himself? That's what he's talking about. Always and forever. He's talking about himself, not his constituents, not the citizens of the United States. You know, he is talking. About 

Beth: [00:29:21] himself. And look here we are in an election year, which feels better to me, right then it has, I have not known how to talk about this stuff.

I have not wanted to talk about his rallies and his speeches because there wasn't much to be done about it, but we are at a decision making point now. And I think for people who have voted for him, supported him, hung in with him. We are reaching a place now where the question is different. The question is not Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.

The question is, do you want to do this again? Are you up for four more years of this? When you see his willingness to fire, every person who holds the government accountable, when you hear him say that it's more important to lift his mood than to prevent even one person from getting COVID-19 when you.

Understand clearly what he's about are you up for four more years of that? And I guess that's the transition to the Veep stakes, which is the word I really dislike, but it's the only one that we have to talk about this, you know, analysis of who's going to be Joe Biden's vice president. In one sense, I get that that's monumentally important because of Joe Biden's age and a number of other factors.

I'm not sure that it's electorally important at all. We always talk about it that way. But to me, this election just seems to be such a clear referendum on Donald Trump. Joe Biden could say, well, I'm going to appoint Beth's iPhone to be my vice president. And I'd be like, fine. You can have it. And that seems acceptable to me when I view my choice, you know?

Sarah: [00:30:54] Yeah. I think it's really difficult. Because no matter what, it will absolutely be a referendum on Donald Trump. It's so funny that you say that this weekend I took a picture of that I'll post on Instagram of this truck. We were driving behind in Southern Illinois and it said, you know, he had a trunk, it's like a card of a.

ACE of diamonds with Trump in the middle of it. I don't know why the ACE of diamonds, maybe some card people can explain that to me. There's these are all custom there's one in the middle that says deplorable, dare leg, do nothing Democrats. And then on the left, there was a big one and it says, do you want more of the same?

If so, go vote. And I thought, uh, um, I don't know, even among the members of his base, who would answer. After the last few months. Oh yeah, for sure. More of the same. And then below it, this is the best part it says for the man that says it. Like it is the truth. Now my husband says that there should be a comma or a dash.

Like they meant it vote for the man that says it. Like it is. Break the truth. But again, I think the absence of the punctuation really illuminates something. He says it like it is the truth. Yeah, he does. It's often not the truth, but I was like, this is fascinating. So, I mean, I do think that it's a referendum and also I think, you know, what you see in past.

Elections, particularly elections where the incumbent president lost. You do need some excitement. You do need excitement to get out the vote for people to feel like they're voting for the future. And so in that aspect, I think Joe Biden because of his age and because of the lack of excitement among the democratic base about his.

Candidacy then his vice-presidential choice is really important. I mean, to me, we are picking definitely the next democratic nominee, because I don't think Joe Biden will run for a second term and probably, you know, listen, I'm out here telling the future. When I say we're terrible at that. And it's bad. I mean, but.

You know, at least a 25% chance, but I think much higher the next president and the first woman president. So that is a big deal. 

Beth: [00:33:25] I just don't know because I don't look at the democratic party as it exists today. And think we'll definitely, that person will be then the standard bear because you just see a willingness to primary people all over the place.

I'm not criticizing that. I'm just saying objectively. I don't know that you look at today's democratic party and say it has been decided for you and feel comfortable about that. So I, if I were on the Biden team, I would be thinking more about this as some, as a governance decision who is ready to actually step in and do this job tomorrow, if something happens to him.

Sarah: [00:34:01] But that's electorally important too. It's not just a guy, you know what I mean? 

Beth: [00:34:04] It is. And also. I just think, trying to say, and then who would be the right person to run, like takes it to a level of pressure that no one can predict and that I'm just not sure works the way the democratic party is operating today.

And I think that's fine. You know, I think taking that pressure off is probably good and healthy for everybody. Certainly more democratic to think about it that way. 

Sarah: [00:34:28] So let's talk about some of the front runners for a long time. It was Amy , but she has now announced that she is removing herself from consideration for the vice-presidential.

I think that's the absolute right call considering George Floyd's death in Minneapolis, in her home state of Minnesota and her past as a prosecutor. So absolutely the right call. So I think she was the front runner then I think you do see discussions of Elizabeth Warren, but I think her age. Comes into play.

And I think at this moment in time, the idea that he would not pick a woman of color is really unlikely, possibly tone deaf, not the direction they seem to be going in. 

Beth: [00:35:12] I'm sad that it has taken. George Floyd's death and the deaths of other people and nationwide protests to get us around too. We shouldn't have two white people on a ticket for the presidency.

Well, 

Sarah: [00:35:27] I heard that conversation before that though. I definitely had conversations with other Democrats and on ours and some of our social media where people were like, come on, we can't have two white people. Even if one of them is a woman, I will 

Beth: [00:35:38] say that. Yeah, I'm just saying, I think that should be our, our standard going forward.

Like I just don't think anybody should run at the state or the national level on a ticket with two white people going forward. It's just not representative of America. Maybe that's not true in every part of American geography, but for the most part, we should. We should have our leadership be representative of our communities.

And if you look at his roster of possible candidates who aren't white, who are both women and not white, it's still a really good list, you know, and a long list. And so we're out of excuses in terms of, well, we don't have a good. You know, bench of people who could do that job. Yes, we do. Now 

Sarah: [00:36:18] we do well. And I think the, their emphasis on governance is why you see people who are really popular on that list.

Like Stacey Abrams, not in consideration as far as I can tell. And from the chatter that I'm seeing, I think like her experience is only a state representative is just, it's not enough when you're talking about somebody that's going to be 78 on the first day they roll into the oval office. I think that we need people with more governing experience.

I think that. Val Demings, another name for those of you who don't know, she's a representative from Orlando, former police, chief. She was on the impeachment team. And she's amazing, but I wonder if that sort of lack of big federal government experience is hurting her. 

Beth: [00:36:58] I don't know. I think she would be a great choice when I look at the people who I think are his best options.

They all have some type of executive experience because again, thinking about that, who can step right into this chair? So that's why, like, I think the mayor of Atlanta, Keisha bottoms would not be a bad choice. I think Val Demings would not be a bad. Choice that police chief experience is not like leading a city or a state, but it is still leading something that's pretty complex.

I think the governor of New Mexico would be an excellent choice, especially because of her record on healthcare. I found a really good article about that, that we'll put in the show notes. If you don't know much about her, she's also been a member of Congress. So she's got a wealth of experience that I think could be really beneficial to him.

And then I don't think he can have this conversation without talking about Senator Harris. And I wonder where you are on her. 

Sarah: [00:37:46] I think it's, Kabala, I'm going to be honest. I think it's Camila. I mean, when somebody put out a poll of Democrats and like, I'm like, I don't know who paid for that, but that to me is a big indicator that that's where it's going.

I bet. I mean, I wonder if she paid for it, but I'm thinking, yeah, I think it's going to be Camila. And I really, I struggle with where I come down between, I would say Val Demings or Camila or someone like. The mayor of Atlanta, is, is it more important to us as Democrats, that that person has been vetted?

Because we had such an incredibly open and long primary process, like, would people feel better about the fact that we went all through that and got Joe Biden? If somebody that also went through that became the vice presidential running mate, and they had that amount of vetting. Although, I think you could also argue that the flip side of that is they were vetted and they came up blacking.

You know, I think Cabela's campaign had some problems and she lost, she wasted some momentum, but she's also proven herself to be a fantastic campaigner in some respects, if maybe not just the head of a presidential campaign or is it more important that we go out there when it's somebody as well known?

As Joe Biden and give people a fresh face. I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't know somebody that, that didn't get vetted through that process, but it's also not weighed down by that process. I think it's a tough call. I really 

Beth: [00:39:20] do something that I would highlight about Senator Harris is that it would say a lot about the difference between what a Biden administration would look like versus a Trump administration that she.

Ruthlessly attacked him and nearly ended his campaign in a debate. And then if he were to go on and choose her to be in this position, how comforting to know that we would have a president whose ego could stand to have people around to challenge him. I think with everything that's happened in the past couple of months, with the firing of the inspectors general, with the revolving door of administration officials, it would say a lot about Biden.

If he said yes, Senator Harris. That's going to be my governing partner, even as she pushes me hard. 

Sarah: [00:40:07] Well, and here's something I was thinking about too, with regards to him, I think with Joe Biden, making this decision, and it's not like he's like making it himself with a notebook and a pencil, but, you know, ultimately he will make the call.

And you're looking at someone who was one of the most active vice-presidents in history, deciding on a vice president from a very different perspective. I mean, even if you left the last elected vice president was George H w Bush, but that was not an, you know, active governing partnership between him and Ronald Reagan.

You know, he was chosen for some really electorial reasons. They had an acrimonious relationship, particularly their wives. Well side gossip there. And so I think that, that I was thinking like, man, I would, I would love to just like, get him behind closed doors and be like, okay, so now that you were the, like a very different kind of vice president, what you looking for?

Like, that's gotta be a really interesting perspective and factor as he makes this decision. 

Beth: [00:41:12] And that he's wanted to be president for so long. So, you know, he has a very clear vision of how he wants to inhabit that office. I'm really curious to see where this goes and at the same time, I'm just, I'm not sure how much it matters because even as I know, the democratic party is looking for a lot from this choice still who you end up voting for in November.

And even the choice to show up seems to me to be so clear. But that it's hard for me to imagine that this person versus that person would have an enormous impact on the outcome. 

Sarah: [00:41:49] Okay. So today is primary day in Kentucky and we have a very active democratic primary now. Again, another disclaimer, one of the candidates is Amy McGrath, longtime friend of the pod.

She's been on our show. She was a guest at our live show. So we probably need to, you know, sort of be upfront and honest that we have a personal relationship with her and that colors, our perceptions. 

Beth: [00:42:18] Yes, I am not at all and biased in this conversation. And in that way, I have probably distanced from this primary a little bit because I get my feelings hurt for her.

I get mad at people on her behalf. I just, I really feel personally invested because not only have we done stuff with her on the show, but we have spent some time with her just as human beings talking that we didn't record. And I just believe in her. I think she is a person of great integrity. I think she is exceptionally cautious.

I think she will read everything that is given to her to try to discharge her duties in this office. Well, I just think she is a really good person and I rarely have the opportunity. To know that about a person I'm casting my ballot for usually that's an act of faith. And when I got to vote for her this time, it wasn't an act of faith.

You know, I felt really sure about who I was voting for. And that being said, it has gotten really contentious here on the democratic side in Kentucky. I can imagine that Mitch McConnell's office is just having a field day because it's become so contentious. But in addition to Amy McGrath, Who has been high-profile from the beginning representative Charles Booker, who has become very high profile, particularly because of his leadership around the black lives matter movement.

And in the wake of the killing of Brianna Taylor in Louisville, we have another candidate who has been endorsed by Andrew Yang and Marianne Williamson is also been kind of a subject of conversation. So it's really been a surprisingly active ending to this primary. 

Sarah: [00:43:55] So I think, I feel like we're like totally role reversal right now because I, despite again, knowing her personally and really liking Amy don't feel as an emotionally invested as this and can kind of like sit back and realize, and be honest about the fact that her campaign has made a lot of mistakes polluting saying she would have voted for Brett Kavanaugh in the very beginning.

I think that turned a ton of progressive voters and Louisville off and then kind of reversing herself on that. She has. And again, I don't really even like saying she has, because I don't know who was making these calls in her campaign, but at the end of the day, it is her campaign. And I think Charles Booker being out on the streets during the protest, not because I don't think it never felt or seemed like it was a political choice for him, but it was where he wanted to be as a black man.

That's grown up in Louisville is raising a family in Louisville. And so when she was absent from those protests, I think that. Really slowed her momentum and increased his momentum even more. You know what I think is so, so hard about this. I actually think the upside of let's say this, that sort of bad for Mitch McConnell.

It was, let's say Charles Booker. Has an upset, he's been so much money trying to pin negativity on Amy McGrath that would have been wasted. So silver linings, but it's really, really hard. And I think this, our primary is reflective of a debate inside the democratic party, sort of what you were talking about before, which is.

Did we, did we take back the house in 2018 because of Alexandra Kazia Cortez? Or did we take back the house because of Al Abigail span burger? Is it because we looked at red areas that we're likely to flip and say, Hey, we have national security backgrounds. We could be moderates. We're not these. We don't want to abolish ice and do Medicare for all at all costs and all these really progressive positions or.

Is it because we came out and owned them and primary long term Democrats, I mean, a little bit of both is the reality, but I think the debate right now inside the democratic party and Kentucky is which one of those strategies is going to work to defeat Mitch McConnell. And that's like, I'm really of two minds in one way.

Look at our governor. He had a really progressive challenger in the primary animator, Lynn. Who lost. And there was not a lot of excitement about Andy and there was this, this undercurrent in the democratic party that he's just a boring, moderate, a party, regular, like all this sort of frustration and nastiness, particularly coming out of the hardcore progressive community in Louisville.

And. You can say what you want. And I can't tell you what would have happened if added Edelen would have won, but Andy won the primary and Andy won the governorship because I think there were a lot of Kentucky ans that were just tired of the nastiness of Bevin and he felt like a safe, moderate choice.

And so I think that that's what we're talking about right now. Like what's, what's going to work to defeat Mitch McConnell. Do we want a moderate. Who is going to be more careful or do we want to progressive, who's going to fire up the base and, you know, I don't really know the answer. I think some of it is the reality is that Mitch McConnell wins because he buries his opponent and a pile of money.

And so I want to see who can raise money, who can go back at him. And I really honestly think either of them could. But it, you know, who's, if we're going to leave this very powerful man, this longterm incumbent and say, we don't want the most powerful man in the Senate, we're tired of his politics. Like what are most Kentucky is going to feel more safe voting for?

You know, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. And I think some of it is how good of a campaign you run and how good of a fundraiser you are. And those are like very complicated calculus as to make for the average voter. But I do think that our primary is reflective of this conversation that we're having inside the democratic party.

Beth: [00:48:07] Here's the other reality about our gubernatorial race, Kentuckians elected, governor Bashir, and every other constitutional office Republicans took those offices by a lot, not by a little bit. And so 

Sarah: [00:48:22] it is some of those people were moderates. They weren't all like hardcore Progressive's either. 

Beth: [00:48:27] So it's, it is a tough road for anybody against Mitch McConnell and what I hope can happen.

However, this race ends up in the primary. I hope that all of that will can consolidate behind whoever wins because taking Mitch McConnell out, I think is even more complicated than defeating Donald Trump. No. I was encouraged. We were driving through a very red part of Kentucky this weekend. And on the side of the road where you would normally see like a billboard about how important, uh, babies in the womb arm was a big sign that said, Mitch Mick cover up huge.

I was shocked to see it. And I immediately thought, I wonder if he paid for that. I want to know everything. I have so many questions, but I do think there is a crack. You know, we get this question a lot. Yeah. Can Mitch McConnell be beaten? I think there is a crack. I think there is an opening, but I think it's a teeny tiny opening.

I think it's really, really small. And that's why I've been trying to say to people, if you are watching this primary from afar, please just know it's an embarrassment of riches. We have a couple of people who would. Be infinitely better than Mitch McConnell here. And so ultimately I would just like the acrimony from everyone to come down about that, to say, whoever it is, we are full speed ahead here.

Sarah: [00:49:58] Well, I also want to say, we've gotten a couple of messages about the closing of polling places, um, in Lowville and across the state of Kentucky that happened, I believe under our, in part, under our governor's direction because of COVID-19 and there has been at least in my area. Well, publicized.

Information and campaigns to say, there will be one polling place or very few polling places. And so you can either vote by absentee ballot without an excuse, or you can vote early in person voting up until this point. So yes, there are fewer polling places as there are in many parts of the country due to the pandemic.

But the voters of Kentucky have had other options available to them for weeks. And I also wanted to say that the Kentucky democratic party is running a voter protection hotline throughout today. So if you're in Kentucky and listening to this on Tuesday, June 23rd, and you're having some sort of problem voting or have heard, or have friends and family having a problem voting, then you can call eight three, three G O V O T E K Y.

Go vote Kentucky, eight 33, go vote Kentucky. If you're experiencing any issues. 

Beth: [00:51:06] I think this is one where national coverage has probably. Inflamed something that is not good here, but is somewhat manageable here. If you read the courier journal, like the Louisville newspapers coverage of this, it's, it's a different tenor than some of the national papers coverage of it, because what you have on both sides, even of a lawsuit about this are people saying we've taken some really good steps.

And also we're really concerned about COVID-19. And so in the face of believing that we've taken some really good steps and we're all worried about people getting sick, what is the right way to hold an election? And the state board of elections is saying, well, that's why we've only had one polling place.

Even in our largest counties, because we're trying to minimize the number of people who are actually going to vote in person. We're trying to put up flashing sign, please use the other ways of voting and the people on the other side of this lawsuit, including a Republican state representative who, who led this lawsuit about wanting more polling places open are saying yes, but.

A lot of people, even though you did a good job with some of those steps on early voting and voting by mail, a lot of people still just, aren't going to do that. And that's a really fair point. It is not the culture of our state to vote early and to vote by mail. And there's a long list of plaintiffs in this lawsuit who say they just don't trust voting by mail and.

I get that we haven't done it in this state a lot, other than just regular old absentee voting on this scale, we haven't done it. We do have reports that we're overwhelmed by absentee ballots. I imagine it's going to take a couple of days for us to know the outcome of these primaries. It takes a while to cut, to get people into a new way of voting.

And even though we've tried to do a lot of that, Running up to this primary and have done some good things. We probably haven't done enough and probably people will feel disenfranchised. And I imagine in Belleville, especially where the momentum around representative Booker is especially strong. This could be a real cluster and it could be a problem.

For whomever wins that primary because you don't want questions about disenfranchisement as you come out of this contest. Amy McGrath's campaign tried to intervene in that lawsuit. Their motion to intervene was denied. So it's really hard. I think this is a situation where it sounds super nefarious when you read a meme about it, but actually you have a lot of parties.

Who've all been trying to do the right thing and you still have a bad result because it's a bad situation. So 

Sarah: [00:53:51] we are obviously hoping for good, smooth voting in Kentucky, but either way, I think that this primary result will be important for everybody Democrats in Kentucky and Democrats across the country to pay attention to

that's what's on your mind outside politics. 

Beth: [00:54:16] We received the best message from Emilyn who is 12. And she said, I've been hearing a lot about the problems in our country. And I have some ideas that I think could be useful in the political system, but as a 12 year old, I did not know how to have any influence in the system.

I wish I had the chance to help think of ideas. People who make decisions. When I get older, if I could be a mediator, I would want to work with Democrats and Republicans because both of their perspectives, value, good things. And if we combine them, we could get the best from both worlds. My mom listens to your show and things.

You might have ideas of who I could talk to or how I could get started now, even as a kid. So Emily, and this is not really outside of politics, but this captured our hearts. Because a 12 year old who's ready to be involved. I love that. And I do think there are ways for a 12 year old to be involved in MLM.

I would start with writing a letter to the editor of your local paper, about something that you think is important. And I would send a copy of that letter to the people who represent you in your state government, if that's what the issue is about or in your national government, your representatives in Congress.

Um, but I do not think you should at all. I feel that because you are 12, you don't have ideas. We, we need exactly ideas from people who are 12, because you tend to see the world so clearly. And without a lot of baggage that we have as adults. So I love this. 

Sarah: [00:55:36] I just want to offer to adopt Emilyn because I think that she's a blessing.

And I would like to have her for myself as my daughter, but I don't think she's up for adoption. So I guess that's probably not available to me, but I agree. Like I think that the idea that kids can't vote or run for office means that they are not impactful. And I think it is the opposite. I think when kids speak, especially from real sincerity and authenticity and emotion about something that they're concerned about.

Adults tend to pay attention. I mean, look at Gretta now that does not mean that it comes with, um, out some risk, even in our polarized environments. I think kids can get swept up into that, which is really unfortunate. But I think for the most part, and especially in local communities, when kids speak adults, listen about these types of things, because they are hungry for somebody without baggage or without a long.

Political or partisan history to share their perspective. And so the world needs you Emilyn. And I can't wait to hear what you have to say. 

Beth: [00:56:38] And speaking of Emilyn, if you write that letter and want to record you reading it in your voice, we would love to share it here with all of our listeners, because I'm sure everybody wants to know what's on your mind.

And also Emily's mom. You're doing a beautiful job. Well then, 

Sarah: [00:56:54] so this fit nicely with something that I was thinking about. It's not necessarily outside politics, but is a little bit, and it is hope. So I'm going to get a little emotional, um, Tonya HASI coats. Is really important voice to me. And I think it's because, you know, we tell the story on pantsuit politics all the time of the fish and they're swimming along and the old fish comes up and says, Hey boys, how's the water.

And the two fish say what's water. And I think Tanahashi goats is important to me because. In many ways. He showed me the water, his writing revealed things to me that it's not like I was ignoring race or either even deliberately ignorant to issues of race, but my perspective and my field of vision was so limited and he just cracked it wide open.

And so I have an enormous amount of respect and trust and just. Emotional investment in his words. And he was on the Ezra Klein podcast. I was so excited to listen to it. And the first thing as her client asked him is what do you see right now? And I wanted to share his response here with all of you.

He said that. And I just started to weep because I didn't realize how much I needed to hear from somebody that I trusted on race from a black American say, no, it feels different to me because it felt different to me. But for a lot of reasons, I don't particularly trust my own perspective. Cause I think.

As a white person, I can be, you know, sort of hungry for the positive, hungry for the, we did it. And I don't think that's what he's saying, but hearing someone say, no, this is different. This is impacting in a way that nothing has before that felt like just so enormously hopeful to me. And I didn't realize how much I needed to hear that until I heard it.

And so. I think, you know, as we're looking to the future with this sweet, sweet babies, like Emylin and thinking about America, especially as we move into an election cycle, just hearing the word hope and thinking about how much we, we need that hope was it was a lot. 

Beth: [00:59:34] Well, I think that's a good note to end on a little bit of hope goes a long way.

We will be with you here again on Friday, we'll be talking about what's going on with the president's anticipated order on immigration and whatever else percolates this week. We're also going to talk about a wonderful bi-partisan piece of environmental legislation that passed. And so be sure to join us on Friday.

Remember that Wednesday on the nuanced life, you can hear our pride commemorations. Until then Keep It Nuanced Ya’ll.

Domestic policy, Foreign policy, InterviewsAlise NappChina, Rosemary Ketchum, VP pickComment