Trump's Long Farewell

Trump%27s+Long+Farewell.jpg

Topics Discussed:

  • Covid-19 Spread and Processing

  • Federal Budget and Potential Shutdown

  • Republican Women in Leadership

  • The Dregs of Trump

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Episode Resources

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Sarah: [00:00:00] We're going to have to decide how much we continue to talk about him, because it will affect the people in our audience's lives, who live amongst those people that distrust the media, even if they listen to us and they voted for Joe Biden. And even if they didn't vote for Joe Biden and they're just ready for us to be past Donald Trump. Like it's still relevant.

This is Sarah

Beth: [00:00:22] And Beth, 

Sarah: [00:00:23] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

Beth: [00:00:25] The home of grace-filled political conversations.

Sarah: [00:00:40] Welcome to Pantsuit Politics. We are so happy to be here with you today, even though we do not have an extensive list of happy topics to discuss. We're going to talk about the latest with COVID and the truly, truly terrible numbers we are [00:01:00] passing in the United States. We do have some positive updates on the vaccine front, and we will discuss some of the positive developments with regards to female representation in our government, but we're going to spend the main part of the show talking about Donald Trump, as much as we hate it. And his continued assault on our democracy. 

Beth: [00:01:24] Before we dive into that, we want to say such a warm welcome, and thank you to you. Maggie Penton, our newest executive producer. Maggie has been a supporter of Pantsuit Politics since we have had supporters of Pantsuit Politics, and it's really an honor for her to increase her support to this level.

And we're so grateful for her and everyone else who supports the show. If you have not done that yet, you can go over to patreon.com/Pantsuit Politics. We would love to have you there as part of the patriotic family. 

Sarah: [00:01:54] The United States continues to suffer from an incredible surge, [00:02:00] arguably uncontrolled spread of COVID-19 across the country.

The head of the CDC said yesterday, as we record on Thursday, that we're looking at some of the toughest months and us public health. We now have over 100,000 Americans in the hospital with COVID. On Wednesday, we logged our highest death rate with 2,760 Americans losing their lives to the virus. And it doesn't show any sign of letting up at least in the next couple of weeks and at least month ahead, 

Beth: [00:02:34] It has both saddened and helped me recently to read pieces about how the human brain is just not capable of processing numbers at this scale, but it is biologically difficult to engage with the level of tragedy that's unfolding around us right now. I think I needed that reassurance.

I've also been really frustrated by [00:03:00] reporting about students falling behind in schools and. People being bullish and bearish about aspects of the stock market. Just feeling like, wow, our priorities are so messed up and we have such a lack of clarity around where we need to be right now. And I think the updated CDC guidelines that have come out this week illustrate that sort of exasperation of American policymakers, just saying like, okay, We've tried to tell you what to do and you're not going to do it.

So we're going to take a stab at something that might be palatable for you. And it's, it's just very hard. And so that grace of there are some psychological limits at work here has helped 

Sarah: [00:03:44] me. I always remember Michelle Becker coming on the show and telling us we're still studying the 1918 pandemic. We still don't quite understand how that all played out.

And I just have to keep reminding [00:04:00] myself that this is a moment in the history of the entire world that we will be studying for probably centuries, if not longer, because we'll have a massive amount of data. And there are so many aspects of just like you said, the psychological input, the community interactions, the political processes and pressures, the public health, strengths, and weaknesses.

As far as communicating with the public that we just, we cannot possibly comprehend right now, it will take so many years to pull all that apart. And, and I think our brains in the moment just want to simplify. Let's just because people are jerks and they won't wear a mask or, um, it's just because people are selfish and they want to travel and, or it's just because people are exhausted or, you know, it's just, just, just, it's not just one thing.

It's not just [00:05:00] 100 things. It's an incredibly complex. Thing that we are all experiencing and living through. And I have already decided that my word for 2021 is going to be gentle because I just think we have to be so gentle with ourselves and others as we continue to live through this, as it continues to get worse.

And that's really hard to do when you're frustrated or you're tired or you're stressed. I've been so short-tempered with everyone in my family today, and I don't even have a good excuse, except for I'm getting better at recognizing that, like this, this I get, I just slow down and I can only go as fast as the slowest part of making go.

And when the news gets really bad about COVID. Whether my mind wants to acknowledge it or not. My body says slow down. This is a lot, you got to slow down. We're doing a lot of things right now. And I saw [00:06:00] I've gotten a little bit better at recognizing and a little bit better at not resenting it as much and just being gentle with myself and others and realizing that even when we don't see the hardship, or even we, even when we see numbers that we just can't comprehend, it is very, very hard what we're living through right now. 

Beth: [00:06:23] It is we were having a conversation about Jane's grades. Um, and there's a part of me that thinks why don't we have grades this year. It's just silly. But the conversation that Chad and I've been having is that she's not doing as well in school as she normally would be.

And when I say it, I'm like, well, of course she's not right. And school's not doing as well for her as it normally would be. And is that a reflection of Jane? Not really, somewhat. Is it a reflection of her teacher? Not really, somewhat. Is a reflection of this one school in Kentucky. In the middle of a global event, where at a policy level, we've just not done enough to prioritize our kids?

[00:07:00] Not really somewhat. And if I were assigning grades to myself right now, would I be knocking anything out of the park? Absolutely not. And so I just keep coming back to exactly what you said. We cannot see this moment clearly, yet, and this moment is so complex. It won't be seen clearly, probably until long after I have passed away. And that's just always true to an extent, but it's really helpful and poignant for me right now to remember, 

Sarah: [00:07:30] I was reading a newsletter and she was asking for the unexpected gifts of 2020. And I hope one of the unexpected gifts of this particular moment is that we can all finally break up with productivity and just let it go.

I'm realizing and seeing very clearly, because in many ways, because of the pandemic and because of the way my life has changed, how. I have, I feel like any moment where I am not doing something and [00:08:00] it's like, I knew that intellectually, but I'm just gaining a lot of clarity about how I feel driven to be doing.

And when those moments come that my body's like slow down. I'm not going anywhere. Okay. That, that that's part of the mental struggle is I feel like I need to be doing something. I need to be reading a book. I need to be picking up. I need to be cleaning out a drawer. I needed to be doing laundry. I need to be, you know, and it's just should, should, should, should I should be doing this?

I should be doing this. I'm should be all over myself. And I think that that real cultural addiction we have to productivity. Um, that came a lot because of technology and the sort of attitudes of Silicon Valley. That's really infested so much of our lives. I hope that we can let that go forever and just pump the brakes on productivity, which grades and all that is so much a reflection of, because it's a cruel mistress and it has not served us at all.

Beth: [00:08:54] We're eight days away as we sit down on Thursday to record this podcast from government funding running [00:09:00] out. And there are some hopeful signs and some not so hopeful signs from Congress. I think we have some potential because we have seen a bipartisan group of lawmakers working on a $908 billion package.

We have seen interest from speaker of the house, Nancy Pelosi and Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer around that package. We also have heard Mitch McConnell saying I got my own plans and I'll be doing things my way so hard to know what will happen. Most observers seem to believe that we'll see some sort of short term measure that kicks up an actual budget fight into the early days of the Biden administration, which I don't think is a terrible plan.

And in some ways it might be a decent plan as long as Congress does something to ensure that those critical COVID related relief programs carry forward and the government doesn't shut down. At least that's my take. I 

Sarah: [00:09:58] think one of the things we're [00:10:00] very clearly seen as that the epicenter of power in the United States Senate, no matter the results of the Georgia Senate runoffs, is really going to be focused on the centrist, moderate Republicans and a couple of Democrats, because the margin is going to be so slim either way that you're going to need Mitt Romney and Joe Manchin and Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins. And now in many ways, I think that's good. And I know a lot of Americans like the idea of centrists being in charge.

You know, I, listen, if I'm waving a magic wand, I want to send it where Cory Booker and Elizabeth Warren and Kirsten Gillibrand are the central basis of power, but whatever, I'll take, what I can get. And, you know, I think that Mitt Romney sees this and I hope that he does. I mean, you ran for president. I know that you desire the power and ability to make a [00:11:00] difference in people's lives. And I. You know, I read quotes from a lot. 

He's getting asked a lot of questions. He's he's in the media. He has a lot of power as the rest of this sort of group that put this compromise together does, and I hope that they continue to apply that pressure, particularly to Mitch McConnell because his form of government is not meeting the historical moment.

The idea that as you articulated really well in an interview the other day that he just power is only used to gain more power instead of to actually govern it to help people. I hope that that group, I think, is evidenced by this compromise feels differently and, and pushes him and plays their power in a way that pushes him to do more.

Beth: [00:11:45] We are seeing really positive developments on the vaccine front. So vaccines are starting to roll out in the UK. From what I have read. I don't think that Americans need to be hot about the UK. Rolling out these vaccines ahead of us. [00:12:00] It is a smaller country. It is a similar process. I don't think you need to be concerned if you're in the UK, but it's been rushed ahead of us.

And I don't think you need to be concerned if you're in the United States, processes are very similar. The scheduling was just different. The deployment will be different because it's just really different country than ours and I, as an American. Feel a little bit of a sigh of relief that a country like the UK will go first, because I do think we're going to have difficulties with vaccine resistance as we get into the spring and summer of next year.

So I hope that we can see some positive results and that helps people's acceptance. We're going to talk a lot more about vaccines next week and how these vaccines are being developed and what they mean. But we know that three of our former presidents, president Obama, president George W. Bush and president Clinton have offered to publicly take the vaccine to promote confidence in its safety.

And I think that's a really wonderful way for [00:13:00] former presidents to use their influence. We 

Sarah: [00:13:02] began our own research in this vaccine technology. And what we really want to do next week is arm you, as you enter the holidays, because we know that so many of you have relatives and friends and family members, um, who are either not taking a mainstream media at all, or deeply skeptical of people in the mainstream.

Many are experts in the medical community and like, You got as best as you're on the front line of misinformation. And we want to make sure that you have the best information available to you to help educate those in your community so that we can all get vaccinated and move out of this terrible, terrible pandemic and back to something even slightly resembling normal life.

Beth: [00:13:45] I wanted to really quickly say something about the prioritization of these vaccines. We got a pretty heated email from someone who said, you know, it sounds kind of cruel to say, but I don't understand prioritizing long-term care facilities. [00:14:00] And the first thing to know is that. Of the initial vaccine rollout, 20.5 million healthcare workers are being prioritized and 2 million residents of long-term care facilities.

This person was talking about children quite a bit. I think it's important to know that children have not been studied yet. We don't know how these vaccines will work in children. We also know that transmission, especially in younger children is much lower. So the best way we can protect children right now is by protecting the adults that they interact with.

The other thing I was thinking about with long-term care facilities is how we have such a tendency to view people near the end of life in total isolation. And just from a numbers perspective, there are healthcare workers in those long-term care facilities. There are also people who make food and clean the facilities and all of those people go out into the world.

The wear and tear psychologically on our [00:15:00] country from the level of death happening in long-term care facilities is another one of those pieces that I don't think we're going to understand for a long time and what that does to a family generationally, to lose someone, to not be with them during that loss, to not be able to grieve properly.

I just think there are so many dimensions and the data tells us so clearly about the dangers in long-term care facilities. I am a parent of young children. I have no problem whatsoever with this prioritization. It makes complete sense to me given everything that we've learned about COVID-19 since March.

Sarah: [00:15:38] I think it's just an incredibly shortsighted misunderstanding of what vaccines are for vaccines are not solely about keeping the individual receiving the vaccine from getting sick or dying. So when you think about vaccines of like, well, who do we care enough about not dying? That's not the point. The point is to not give the virus anywhere to go.

The point is to get a portion of the [00:16:00] population, inoculate it so that it can not continue to spread. It's why these posts on Facebook about we should just the people that are healthy to just go about their everyday lives are so ignorant. That's not how it works. We don't want to give the virus a fertile field in which to spread, because that's how you end up in a pandemic.

Like it's just this, this very like singular. Individualized lens. All that matters is am I getting sick or dying as opposed to, okay, well, if I get sick, if I don't, if I'm just out there living my life because I'm healthy and I'm not worried about COVID well, then I don't. If I get COVID and I don't get, and I'm not sick for very long, that's all that matters.

No, it's that you're giving COVID somewhere else to go. And so if it passes through you because you're healthy and you're out there living your life, not wearing a mask, then it goes somewhere else. And to someone older to someone with a chronic illness who cannot under even the best of circumstances and endless [00:17:00] wealth, completely hermetically sealed themselves off.

I just, I can't, it is frustrating to be this far in and to have people still looking at this individually as just like, who do I care, get sick and dies as opposed to. Preventing this virus from flourishing, which takes a very community outlook because it doesn't care about borders. It doesn't care about anything except having somewhere else to go.

And that's what we're trying to prevent. And we're trying to do it in a very strategic way so that it doesn't flourish in the places. It likes the best, like long-term care facility. So that then those workers carried into somewhere else. I just, I don't understand why this far and people don't understand that it's frustrating.

Beth: [00:17:45] Well, think about the influence of pop culture. Everything that we've ever conceptualized about the kind of crises that we're living through right now has always still had a dramatic line of good and evil [00:18:00] and who deserves to live. And who's going to get sacrificed in the process. There are a lot of grieves in our brains built around narratives that are very unhelpful to what we're actually living through right now.

And this stuff is hard. I really liked Matt Yglesias, his most recent sub stack, or just sub stack bananas over here, um, about travel restrictions and, and he's very humble and reflective in talking about how during the Ebola crisis, there was a thread that travel restrictions are xenophobic and. Racist and ineffective and that they would always stigmatize disease and unhelpful ways and what he came to through an examination of everything we've learned about Ivil Ebola.

And since is that yeah, they can be, and they can also really work. And he points to New Zealand, which all of us see numerous think pieces a week about how new [00:19:00] Zealand's done such a great job. And he's like, can you go to New Zealand right now? If you want to know. You can imagine. And that's an example of how travel restrictions can be a really effective part of the strategy.

Now, the way we implemented them here in the United States around COVID-19 was clearly ineffective, but that doesn't mean that they're bad altogether. And the way that they're talked about matters a lot. And I think that's what you see again with the CDC guidance. They are always. Dealing with that element of how do I persuade the public to come along?

Because we cannot force everybody to do all of the right things here. And we also want them to trust our guidance and trust that we don't have ulterior motives about control and domination. So it it's hard. Um, but this person asked us to speak about it personally, and, and I'm happy to endorse the approach that the CDC is taking on prioritizing these vaccines. I think, I think they're doing the best they can [00:20:00] in a very hard situation. And I think the fact that we're even talking about vaccines right now is a dang miracle and I'm grateful for it.

 I want to spend just a second before. We don't know what to call our second section, but before we hit the low lights of what's happened with the administration post election to celebrate some Republican women in leadership positions, Cathy McMorris Rodgers will be the first woman to serve as ranking member for the GOP on the houses, energy and commerce committee.

That is a very important committee, a very influential position. Uh, representative Kay Granger is poised to become the ranking member again of the appropriations committee, again, a super powerful committee in Congress. And so there are just lots of good signs that women on both sides of the aisle are emerging in leadership roles, not to mention, you know, Liz Cheney is going to serve another two year term.

We can have. [00:21:00] Disagreements with and feelings about the language that these women use and the way that they wield that power. But I truly believe the research that it matters to have women in leadership of a diverse political philosophy. And so I was excited to see this news particularly about representative McMorris, Rodgers.

Sarah: [00:21:18] Next up, we're going to talk about Trump.

We discussed Polaris episodes the dreg syndrome. That was my husband's idea but the dregs does not seem like a strong enough word for the complete shit sandwich that is his current approach to ending his term and trying to take our democracy down with him. 

Beth: [00:21:43] It's hard to know where to start, because in some ways, very little has happened. Post-election you've had a lot of noise about lawsuits and all of those lawsuits just fizzle. You have the Senate race in Georgia. [00:22:00] Which in some ways is the center of the political universe right now, but then in other ways, not at all, because I think no one has a clear understanding of how to direct Trump's attention to that Senate race and where Trump's attention goes.

Unfortunately, so goes all of our attention. So it's just been a very weird almost. Can you believe it's been a month since election day and. And we have clarity about the electoral college and we have the Biden administration just moving along, ready to go. And yet the president has delivering 46 minute Facebook speeches claiming that the election was fraudulent.

It's weird. 

Sarah: [00:22:42] Well, I have no doubt that he planned that as an address and the. News media and particularly the, um, broadcast channels were like, no, we will not be interrupting our broadcast for a presidential address about how you lost [00:23:00] the election, but you're mad because you think it was stolen. Um, 

Beth: [00:23:03] and good, thank you. Hooray for that, that's progress.

Sarah: [00:23:06] There's a thing that's like, I worry, like it's really easy to tune him out and in some ways that's great because he throws off attention. But I do worry is that bad because we're not paying attention. Enough attention to the damage he's doing that these poor election officials like Gabriel Sterling have to come out and basically plead for their lives because they're under such threat of violence that we have Michael Flynn issuing a press release calling for the suspension of the constitution.

Like it's so hard with him. Like we talked about, you know, post-election day, is he a full or is he a tyrant? And I don't know if we're not. Watching the transformation from a fool into a tyrant, like in some ways it's so easy to laugh and blow off Rudy Giuliani and all these attempts and Sydney pal, and the just ludicrous nature of their claims.

But at the same time, he is the president of the United States and he is [00:24:00] convincing thousands and thousands. If not millions of Americans that our system can not be trusted and a democracy thrives on the. Belief and trust and faith free and fair elections. And even if it doesn't result in what he wants it to result in, which is either a new vote or the continuation of his term, like it, it will have consequences for decades.

I believe that I think there are some people we will never be able to convince again that our elections are free and fair. And that is really scary not to mention that it's it's. Increasing all these threats of violence against election officials against politicians. It's really scary. And I'm struggling with house, you know, how serious to take him, how serious to take this threat to our democracy, to our [00:25:00] elections, because, you know, I think it's become well, if it doesn't change the result of as long as Joe Biden's sworn in on January 20th, that's what matters.

And that is of course what matters. But, you know, we've ever seen this. I think what really got my attention is this idea that he will not attend the inauguration and that he will announce that he's running in 2024, basically setting up like a shadow government. Like you don't have to listen to anything Joe Biden tells you, he's not really your president. As far as you're concerned, Donald Trump is still your president. And it's just really shocking. Which you know, is also upsetting because I'm still being shocked by him and dangerous and frustrating and infuriating and, and all of those things all at once.

Beth: [00:25:47] And this is what I keep coming back to. I don't want to think about him anymore. I am horrified by the behavior of Republican senators and officials who have propped him up. I am [00:26:00] so happy about the behavior of Republican officials who have said clearly here is what happened here is how it happened, knocked it, knock it off. 

I was really moved by the statement from Gabriel Sterling, where he was just forcefully saying in Georgia, stop someone is going to get hurt here. I think we're seeing profiles in courage and profiles in deception and manipulation, and there's something clarifying about that whole process that I hope turns out to be helpful.

I don't know the answer to tune him out versus cover him from a media perspective. That helps us with this foundation of people that don't trust media. Anyway, if you don't cover his speech on inauguration day, are you fueling that fire or are you appropriately. Relegating him to a minor role. I [00:27:00] just don't.

I don't know. I think I'm so glad I don't run ABC news or CNN right now, because I think those choices are really difficult when you have a public that has such a broad mistrust of all information, but I mean, 

Sarah: [00:27:18] That's a choice we're going to have to make, we're going to have to decide how much we continue to talk about him. Because it will affect the people in our audience's lives, who live amongst those people that distrust the media, even if they listen to us and they voted for Joe Biden, or even if they didn't vote for Joe Biden. And they're just ready for us to be past Donald Trump, like it's still relevant. 

It's still relevant that he is motivating um, continuing to turn out or anger or. You know, whatever the, the verb you want to use with this particular subset of the American populace, um, it's still gonna have impact on our personal relationships. It's like, I don't know how my dad's going to [00:28:00] treat him. I don't know how my dad's going to react if he basically just goes off and pretends, he's still president.

He's clearly gonna announce he's going to run in 2024. You know, I think we all, it's like we all have to make that call. It's not as hard as, as it is for somebody to ABC news, but. You know, I, again, I really feel like I need to like sit down with those specialized divorce attorneys who deal with diverse, divorcing, a narcissist, who like you still have kids with you and you're still have them in your lives.

Like how do you handle that? How do you deal with that? How do you, I guess the, the answer is healthy boundaries and I don't know what that looks like with an ex president. I 

Beth: [00:28:39] I don't know either. It feels easier to me to do it here because we get more than seven minutes and we can put in all kinds of context and we don't have to have answers as much as we have to have good questions.

I think even this choice about the 46 minute speech, I'm really glad that it went out on Facebook instead of on the major networks. I think that was all hard call because, [00:29:00] and this is what Twitter and Facebook have been dealing with too. It is newsworthy when the president lies it should be. Shocking scandalous what the president just did.

And instead it does feel like just another day and the Trump saga and hopefully we're wrapping it up scene. I would love to ask him, what are you hearing from your dad right now? About the way that he's acted? 

Sarah: [00:29:26] Post-election I have not, I have not talked to them. I've gotten so close several times being like, do you think this is dangerous?

We had some exchanges about COVID and. Recently where I was like, it's bad in your area. And he was in, he was like, I don't think it's fake. And I was like, okay, that's good. I didn't really think you did, but I still think you should see that this like, sort of laying the groundwork of like, this is what happens though, when you have leadership that treats it as fake.

And I've toyed with the idea recently, like of asking him, like, do you think it's okay for him to skip the inauguration, but it's still just a rumor, you know, that's the [00:30:00] one thing I'm struggling with. Like, I don't want to start a conversation about something we don't know for sure, but I haven't, you know, really brought up the sort of election fraud claims.

Like we had a conversation about Sharpie gate in Arizona. We usually, when we talk, he's just so mad at Gavin Newsome. That's really what. When it comes down to, but you know, I, I don't know. I'm, I'm kind of struggling with that, that question too, like, because I don't want to bring it up just for it to degrade and hardened again.

Okay. I do think there is a, I do not, let me say this. I do not think that all 70 million Americans who voted for Donald Trump are going to follow him off this cliff. Not anywhere close. I think lots of people voted for him that do not compose that base. Lots of people voted for him that. Believe the election was free and fair and that he lost.

And maybe I don't really know which I don't, I don't really want to know which part of that, of that breakdown my dad is in. And maybe that's why I'm avoiding the conversation, but [00:31:00] I think it it's just, it was one thing when he was newly elected and you just had to just swallow it. This is where we're at.

This is what it's going to be. And it's like, that was almost psychologically easier to deal with. It's like, you just decided how you're going to do it. Here's the situation. And moving on, even though I don't think we fully comprehended the psychological impact of that and what it will be like when he's not president anymore, but this new reality of like, okay, well now it's a little more nuanced.

Like how do, how, how am I going to deal with, think about, talk about. How much attention am I going to pay to him? Once he's out of the white house, it's like, we all need that. Like, we all need a fresh new strategy and I don't know the best one. 

Beth: [00:31:43] And maybe we'll get some information about that through the Georgia Senate races.

Although I think whatever happens in the Senate races is going to be impossible to draw many lasting conclusions. I don't care if he comes to the inauguration. You 

Sarah: [00:31:56] don't think that's dangerous. You don't think if he doesn't show up [00:32:00] it's dangerous? 

Beth: [00:32:01] I don't think it's healthy, but I don't care as much about that as I care about people continuing to vote in elections and having confidence in that process, because there's a part of attending the inauguration that is.

A little bit, just that we treat former presidents like royalty and yes, it is significant to have that peaceful transition of power that it is part of respecting the rules, respecting the process, making that statement that the torch is being passed, but at the same time, I have never been confused about whether Donald J Trump is big enough to do something like that.

 And so if he doesn't fine, if he runs for president and again, he's entitled to. It's happened before he can do it, whether the party supports him around. That is a more interesting question to me. It's also interesting to me to think about those 74 million people and, and where they're falling on a spectrum of thinking.

That they have some questions about the voting process versus the whole [00:33:00] thing. What I don't want right now is for my friends and neighbors to think that every major city in a swing state is actively changing people's votes. That is what scares me most about what's going on right now. And you saw that in the 46 minute remarks, just listing off Philadelphia does this, Detroit does this, Atlanta does this? No, they don't. No, they don't. And that is that to me, the most dangerous thing that's going on right now. 

Sarah: [00:33:32] See, I fear that if he does not attend the inauguration in particular, if he held his own rally, it's like this, this. This break and all of us had done one path and they break off on another road and it's increasingly difficult to get them back.

You know, I hated the results of the 2000 election. I felt robbed and betrayed [00:34:00] and like the system was not representative of me, but I watched the inauguration and I think it was incredibly important to watch. Al Gore step up there and to watch, you know, bill Clinton come to the podium and, and watch that, that visual, the visual of the transfer of power that we are all here in.

This is the system. And I cannot fathom what it took for Hillary Clinton to attend the inauguration and to watch her and Barack Obama stand up there and say like, okay, like, because it's. To me. It's that moment that dials back the fact that they're a royalty or celebrity, that they're all up there together.

And you see, like, this is what it is. This is, this is the thing. It's not them as individuals. It's the process. It's the executive branch. It's the government. This is what we're all a part of. And if he does not step up there and he goes off on his own, to me, all the people that go with them [00:35:00] are lost to us.

They're no longer in it. And maybe they weren't at all for a long time, but to me, like to not have an, the president, the former pro, like that moment where you just feel it shift for him to, for him to bow out of that, to me is really. Really dangerous. I just that moment that even the pageantry of it, humans need that.

We need that transition. We need to see the visual. We walk out, you walk in because this is your house and these people just live here. And if we don't have that, then the w there's this section of the country, it feels very much like. Not to be too historically alarmist, but like the civil war where these were one people where we already feel like we live in different realities in so many ways.

And if he doesn't [00:36:00] participate and so we have him over here and that's the, they feel like they live in that America. We already have enough of that language. We have enough of that polarization as it is to me, it puts this like hard visual reality around that thing that feels dangerous, but a femoral.

And then it's like, we're, we're breaking and they're on this timeline and we're on this one. And that just, that really scares me. 

Beth: [00:36:25] Well, let me be clear. I don't like it. And it's not that I don't value the things that you just said. I absolutely do. I think everything you just said is right. And I also do think that, that, that is the reality.

And maybe if it's not a huge number of people who go that direction, there's something helpful about that. To just see it clearly for what it is and acknowledge it and move forward. That way I just continue. And maybe this is a coping mechanism on my part. I'm very open to that possibility. I don't [00:37:00] fear him as much as I fear a broad spectrum of support for his ideas.

And to the extent that his idea is currently that we have massive scales of fraud playing out over numerous American cities. That is more, that is my priority versus him attending the inauguration. But I think that those, that priority setting could shift over time. And I think that that's going to continue to be one of the hardest things to figure out as a person.

And I can imagine that's a hard thing to figure out if you're a person who voted for him. I, I am so curious about your dad and others, because the people who I personally know who really like the president are also the first people who would say don't be a sore loser. 

Sarah: [00:37:56] Mm, 

Beth: [00:37:57] like a lot of the ideas that sort of [00:38:00] toughness about him that they gravitate to, it has underneath it some real like buck up, things aren't always fair. We get over it. We move on. And I I'm curious about whether that's coming out or not right now. Well, 

Sarah: [00:38:15] And I just don't know how it works as the more he doubles down on this is what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen and it doesn't happen.

Not that, that hasn't been the state of affairs throughout his entire presidency. What does that, how does that end? Like what happens? Like I don't, I can't quite. See the ending clearly. Um, and maybe that's, what's so scary about it. You know, I, I understand that the people who voted for Donald Trump will say, give me a break.

The resistance flooded the streets the day after his inauguration and protested. And you said over and over again, he's not my president. Like what's the difference. And listen, let me be clear. Like. If he wanted to lead a protest the day after the inauguration, but stand up there on the [00:39:00] podium the day of, I would much prefer that.

I'm not saying people don't have a right to protest. I'm not saying people don't have a right to just feel unrepresented by Joe Biden to be angry or frustrated by the legislative priorities of the Biden administration and to protest that every dang day of his term. It's just this idea that like, he.

He's not protesting. He's trying to break it. He is, I think trying to cement their loyalty, raise money, you know, I don't think he even sees the ending clearly. I think he's just trying to smash and grab and it's so dangerous to do as the president of the United States. I also 

Beth: [00:39:51] worry about the people like Mike Pompeo, who will have a future after Donald Trump doesn't and who are choosing in this moment [00:40:00] to do things like host massive holiday parties.

Um, I think that that is the reporting that I'm going to give my attention to because post Trump, there are going to be lots of people who want to fill that vacuum in the Republican party. And I want to know how those people are behaving right now. And I want to be sure to understand. Who has taken the more Mitt Romney path versus who has taken the more Mike Pompeo path?

Because in my view, Mike Pompeo is no different from Donald Trump, except that he's more competent. And I fear for the future of the Republican party, if what we have in 2024 on their side of the ticket is a primary full of people who are just like Donald Trump and more competent. 

Sarah: [00:40:50] No, I think what you were seeing in Georgia is the future of the Republican party in a lot of ways.

I think you're seeing even more clearly this internal struggle [00:41:00] between the establishment. And the moderates and the Trump base. And I don't think it's going to end with the Georgia runoff. I think we're going to see even more people feel like he's, he's gone too far. It's breaking too much. There is a line, even if it's sort of more the, the regular party officials.

Did you read that Bulwark interview with the Wisconsin Republican official in his phone call with Ron Johnson? 

Beth: [00:41:24] No. 

Sarah: [00:41:25] Oh my gosh. He was basically like, well, I'm just going to. Tell the truth. Cause I think it's important about my conversation with him. And Ron Johnson was basically like, Oh, I know Biden won, but it would be political suicide to cross Trump on this. Like we know Biden won in a free and fair election, but 

Beth: [00:41:40] that's a United States Senator. 

Sarah: [00:41:42] Yeah. United States Senator from Wisconsin. We know he fell it. We, we know he wanted a free and fair election, but we can't cross Trump cause that's political suicide. And. You know, I think that even more than in the next four years, cause it's one thing, you know, it felt like there wasn't anything they weren't willing to do to not cross him, but [00:42:00] as his power wanes, which it will inevitably, I don't care if he skips the inauguration.

I don't care if he declares he's running in 20, 24. I don't care what happens inevitably. He is going to you lose power just as a function of not being the president of the United States anymore. Even if he continues to pretend like he is. And so to now to see his power Wayne, and then see how that plays out, you know, it's looking like a hot mess in Georgia.

So we'll see how that plays out on a larger national scale when it no longer becomes complete and total political suicide across Trump, or you need to cross Trump in order to pursue your own political ambitions. Should you want to run for president in 2024? Um, I think that will be all very interesting to watch.

Beth: [00:42:43] And let me be really precise about what I mean, when I say just like Donald Trump. When I say, just like Donald Trump, I mean, in the sense of believing that the presidency is about one man and that the U S government is there to increase one's particular power. There [00:43:00] are policy positions from Trump that have been all over the map.

I don't think that you can distill a coherent worldview. So I'm not being dismissive. Even if people who are very hard-lined about immigration, which is the thing that I. Most fully disagree with, from a policy perspective about what's been done in this administration. I'm not saying no one with those ideas belongs in leadership anywhere.

What I'm saying is people who would do what secretary Pompeo is doing right now, tell his staff don't do anything that's not essential. And then host multiple holiday parties. And that's part of a tradition of Palm PEO and his wife hosting people like US Supreme court judges for a little soirees where it's just this worst caricature of how the powerful view everyone else versus themselves. That's what I don't want more of in a more competent package. 

Sarah: [00:43:56] Yep. Yep. Totally agree. [00:44:00] Well, I think we wanted this to be our last conversation about him, but I think we need to acknowledge to ourselves and to our listeners that it will probably not be. 

Beth: [00:44:08] We'll do our best.

Before we go, we have a little housekeeping to do. I hope that you, you are part of our extra credit book club subscription. We have such good books picked out for January. I'm very excited. But Megan who runs our book club along with Tiffany, from Wild Geese Bookshop, an independent bookstore in Indiana, have some information about that subscription, especially for people who already have it.

So here's Megan to tell you about that. 

Megan: [00:44:41] It's Megan from the Pantsuit Politics book club, and as we all start purchasing gift for our loved ones, a wonderful gift for the readers in your life is the Pantsuit Politics extra credit book club subscription. And it's also a great gift for yourself as well. So if you're a current subscriber and you reach the end of [00:45:00] your year subscription, all you need to do is go to the wild geese, bookshop website and resubscribe moving forward. 

All subscriptions will be auto renew. So this will be the only time that you have to manually resubscribe, but it's really easy through the Wild Geese Bookshop website. So if you have any questions, feel free to email me at Megan@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. 

And I can't wait to read with you. 

Sarah: [00:45:23] Thank you to Megan. Thank you, Tiffany. Thank you to all of you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics, we will be back in your ears next week on Tuesday and until then keep it nuanced, y'all.

Beth: [00:45:42] Pantsuit Politics is  produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Sarah: [00:45:46] Alise Napp is our managing director. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth: [00:45:51] Our show is listener supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Sarah: [00:45:55]David McWilliams. Ally Edwards, Martha Bernitski, Amy Whited, 

Janice Elliot, Sarah Ralph Barry Kaufman, Jeremy Sequoia, Laurie Ladow, Emily Neislie,  

Alison Luzador. Tracy Puddoff,  Danny Ozment, Molly Cores, Julie Hallar, 

Jared Minson, Marnie Johanson. The Creeds! 

Beth: [00:45:59]Sherry Blem, Tiffany Hassler, Morgan McCue, Nicole Berkless, Linda Daniel, Joshua Allen, and Tim Miller. 

Sarah: [00:46:28] To support Pantsuit Politics, and receive lots of bonus features, visit patreon.com/pantsuit politics. 

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