Political Shifts and the VP Debate (with Susan Page)

Political+Shifts+and+the+VP+Debate+%28with+Susan+Page%29.jpg

Topics Discussed:

  • #ThisIsWhy Post Responses

  • Abortion and Political Shifts

  • Matthew Shepard Anniversary

  • Moment of Hope

  • Susan Page on the VP Debate

  • Outside of Politics

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Episode Resources

Transcript

Beth: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Pantsuit Politics. We're going to talk about just how things are going generally in the world and about the next presidential debates cancellation, the Senate confirmation hearing that's underway. 

And then in the main segment we're going to hear from very special guest, Susan Page of USA today, moderator of the vice presidential debate. We have a wide ranging discussion with her about the debate itself, all the way through the insights that she has for us as she works on a new biography about speaker Pelosi. So, you wanna stick around. Don't miss it. We'll end as always with what's on our minds outside of politics.

Sarah: [00:00:36] Before we get started, we have a very special announcement. We are going to host a live virtual we're calling it pre-election political therapy on Friday, October 23rd at 8:00 PM eastern through Looped. It's really cool. You can buy a ticket to the live event. You can also buy a combo where we're going to do a live meet and greet.

So we'll have a little virtual chat, you can get a screenshot with us. You can ask us a quick question. We really, really miss the live events and getting to see you guys in person. And so these are the options available to us as, as of now. And so we're going to take them. So we hope you guys join us on Friday, October 23rd for our live Looped event 

Beth: [00:01:12] Last week on Instagram, Sarah and I participated in a community effort among women who we respect to do similar kinds of work in the podcasting space to share why we are supporting Joe Biden for president. And I wrote the first post that appeared in our feed. I did not spend all day in the comments and I, sorry, certainly did not read everything people said about it because I am a person with a soul and a mental health to protect. But I got enough of them to get one particular criticism all the way under my skin.

And that was that I was talking about personality and people know me too, be very research and fact based and so they were just really disappointed that personality matters tomean, and you know what? I have lots of thoughts and feelings about that, but rather than get into that, I thought, let me share some policy things and let me share some very hard data.

So I would like to just talk about where we are in the most clinical term possible. As we sit down to record today over 214,000 people are dead from COVID-19 and every credible expert believes that is a vast undercount. 214,000 people are more than were killed in world war one and Wars in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

We are close to a death toll that is greater than all of those Wars combined. Also economically things are not going well in fiscal year 2020, the government is expended to spend $6.6 trillion and take in 3.3 trillion, which is a $3 trillion deficit. The national debt at the end of this fiscal year will be $20.3 trillion.

And you may be thinking, but Beth, that is not fair because of the pandemic. And that is correct. The pandemic is a big driver of government spending this year. But just to compare at the end of fiscal year 2016, the deficit was $587 billion. It has climbed every year under president Trump, 666 billion in 2017, 779 billion in 2018, 984 billion in 2019 without COVID-19.

It would have been $1.1 trillion this year. Sarah, do you remember a conversation from the president when he ran for office about the trade deficit? 

Sarah: [00:03:39] Oh, I remember lots of policy conversations with the president from trade deficit to building a wall, to putting Hillary Clinton in jail, to enforcing term limits and have any of those things happened, Beth?

Beth: [00:03:50] They have not. And I would like to talk about trade deficit for a second. Now I want to say, disclaimer, I don't agree with the president's overall understanding of what the trade deficit means, but just in terms of raw numbers, when he was running for office, he complained about how high our trade deficit is the amount of goods and services that we import versus it is export that number.

We'll exceed $600 billion this year, which is the highest since 2008. In August, our monthly trade deficit was a record high of $83 billion. In the past, the president has used numbers focusing only on goods, not services. And by that metric, we are also worse off than when he took office. We had about an $800 billion goods deficit in 2017.

This year, that number will be about 850 billion. So we have, I think, a real case to make that the entire economy is worse off under president Trump, pandemic put aside. And right now the recovery seems to be aided mostly by people's belief that Democrats will sweep the white house house and Senate and we will finally get a new injection of stimulus into the economy because it needs it right now.

So on policy as well I oppose this precedent and that policy extends beyond things that you might criticize me as being tender hearted about including things happening at the border, which are a very big deal to me and I would like all of our hearts to be more tender, but I'm just telling you by the numbers, this presidency has been a failure  and that is true even if you remove the pandemic. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk. That's the first and only time I'll ever say that. 

Sarah: [00:05:38] And here's the thing that bothers me. The personality is the policy. He has not presented any policy priorities to the American people for his second term. He has not done that because he doesn't have any, because the only thing motivating him as we're seeing from the incredible reporting coming out of the New York times on his tax returns is that he is transactional in nature and the transactions must be.

Benefit him personally, or his businesses, not the American people. We are seeing money flow into the membership at his clubs. We are seeing, I mean, uh, money being spent at his hotels and those people are buying our access and policy priorities that. And they know that that works. You know, why you can put hundreds of thousands of dollars into a conference at the Trump hotel or a membership at Mar-a-Lago because, you know, whatever you can say to him and present as a transactional win will.

Win out because you're not competing against any policy priorities because he does not have any, the policy priority is him. That's it. So the personality is the policy. So I don't understand that criticism at all. 

Beth: [00:06:45] Here's the thing. The personality issues, the issues of character better and judgment, and the types of people.

He has confidence in and interest to make important decisions are the things he has the most direct control over. So I just rattled off a bunch of things about the economy. It is true that aspects of the economy, depending on how you measure it have been good under this one. President. It is also true that if you look at any graph that includes more than 2016 to 2020, you will see that that was the trajectory.

of things anyway. And if you look before the Obama presidency into this one, you will see that the economy is usually on a trajectory that has very little to do with the president other than how the president through his character and judgment responds to a crisis. And I think it's really important to look at those graphs.

I've put several links in the show notes for you to do just that, to look at unemployment metrics, poverty metrics, the stock market metrics. Yes. There are lots of ways that you can slice and dice what happens under any president. But the truth is, and the reason that I focus on character above everything else, the president, as a person, and even as the person who exited sizes, massive amounts of power through executive.

Yeah, the action is still, but one. Aspect of a very large endeavor in terms of what we're doing as a, as a United States of America and how the president chooses to exercise that power or has everything to do with his or her character and that all we have to go on, because we don't know what the next crisis will be.

We don't know what's around the door, but we do know that we're not electing a legislator in chief. So, if you think what someone puts on their website is the official statement of policy is what you're voting for. That might be a fine way to vote for someone in the Senate or the house. I would still argue that there are things that matter outside it, but that is not the job of the president.

Sarah: [00:08:48] As you look over the course of the last few weeks. You know, not only do you see this transaction Chanel, real prioritization of his own personal interest, but you see the chaos he is willing to. So in order to promote that personal interest, you know, the second presidential debate has been canceled because he refused to participate virtually.

He is going out on the road back to rallies, despite many, many health experts saying that there is a high chance he is still contagious. You know, he only tested positive just over a week ago. He's only been out of the hospital a week and you're seeing this willingness to just. Throw caution to the wind because his priority is to get out there and to say inflammatory thing so that we don't pay attention to his tax returns.

And we don't pay attention to this power grab and saw the Supreme court. And I think that's what we've seen from the beginning. That's what we've seen constantly and consistently is the willingness to shred norms and so chaos in order to advance his own personal interest. 

Beth: [00:09:57] And it spreads. It's never just a president going in a direction.

It spreads. So in addition to everything we've talked about, we have Lindsay Graham refusing to take a COVID-19 test ahead of his last debate with Jamie Harrison. So that debate had to be reformatted at the last minute because of Senator Graham's. Stubbornness most people who are commenting on this in the media think that Senator Graham refused to take that test because he is very concerned that he might get a positive result and be unable to preside in person over the confirmation hearings in the judiciary committee for Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme court.

And on top of all of them, this, we have this story, this bizarre. Excruciating in his details story of a plot by at least 13 people. And it is starting to look like a lot more to kidnap the governor of Michigan and perhaps to kill her at least to try her for treason. Again, I'm worried that. In this season before the election where I'm even coming in hot.

Right. We're all hot right now because everything matters a lot. I'm worried in this season that we are, again, trying to kind of explain a way or distract from. The trajectory of our character as a country. And I think this kidnapping plot is one of the worst reflections on where we are as a culture that I could imagine.

I couldn't have even dreamed up this scenario to write some kind of dystopian fiction. 

Sarah: [00:11:31] Well, and again, or it's a reflection of his character instead of reaching out to her personally. And seeing how the governor is doing, how her family is doing, because she is a human being who someone was plotting to kidnap.

She is a mother and a wife and a sister and a daughter, and they were planning to kidnap her. And instead of seeing her as a human being and reaching out and checking on how she was doing. He basically doubled down on his rhetoric to have people fight as soldiers for him, basically invoking violence for those who disagree with him and pushing these militia members and these sort of extremist to continue to take extreme measures.

How could you not see this as a reflection of character? What policy is worth this? Well, let me actually. I know what policy is worth. This, this is what I learned from our, this is why 2020, you know, I understand that abortion is an incredibly fraught, controversial issue for almost every American. I don't think I fully understood, even though so many of you had articulated this to both of us, how linked your stance on abortion had become to your.

Um, religious identification and party identification, meaning you could not be a Christian and vote Democrat. I had heard that I, my whole life, you know, I left the Baptist church in 1999, where there had been a creeping politicization in my personal church. It had not reached the depths. I think of what many of you have experienced in your life and.

You know, the messages pouring in the comments pouring in both in support and an opposition to that this is why 2020 post. It really took my breath away. I don't think I understood the depth at which people had been told you cannot be basically a good person and definitely not a good Christian and vote for Democrats and it's, it's shocking to me and I, you know, so, so much of this oh, well, the, the absolute minimum is an opposition to abortion. 

I don't know why the minimum is not an opposition to the death penalty. Um, and it's not my understanding from reading the Bible that some lives are worth more than others, but whatever the case may be, the elevation, dare I say, the idolatry of this issue is something I think I'm really just now coming to see fully for the first time.

And here's what I'm realizing, you know, I often talk about on this podcast, that history is really important to me. It gives me a lot of really helpful perspective. Its not often that I feel like I can see just the tiniest glimmer of future trends. Yeah. But what I am realizing and what I think we are witnessing right now is a truly historical shift. Not because I think every woman who has decided and every man to who has decided that I am devout and I am devotedly pro-life, but I'm going to vote for Joe Biden is going to become a registered Democrats sending checks to planned Parenthood, I do not believe that's going to happen. 

I would not expect that to happen, but once you take a brick out of that wall, once one person sees, Oh no, I can, in fact will vote for a Democrat and I still feel as faithful as I did before this election, you can't undo that. That's not something you can undo. And the. Republican Coalition, the Republican power grab it's built on the premise that you must this way every single time.

And once people start voting differently. And once people realize this personal identity that I had been foisted upon them no longer represents who they are, you can't undo that. That's an incredibly difficult level of change and it was an incredibly powerful source of their political capital for decades.

And I don't think that this election will be the end of the consequences of that realignment. I think it is just the beginning of people saying I will not, I will not be held hostage on one issue. I am capable of making complex moral calculuses and abortion is always a complex moral calculus. And I, you know, I am encouraged by that and I know that the election is all consuming and it is closer and it is closer.

And this president soaks up all the air in the room, but what we're seeing taking place right now will have ramifications long, long, long past this election, long past this presidency. And that gives me great hope.

Beth: [00:16:39] And we're going to continue to have great difference, no matter how this turns out. You could have Democrats in the house and the Senate and the white house, and still have great differences on abortion and everything else.

You know, Amy McGrath who's running for Senate in Kentucky has a wonderful commercial out. I imagine it is targeted to Northern Kentucky because it is about the  Brent Spence bridge that connects Northern Kentucky to Cincinnati. It's just, it's such a good commercial. She's in the car. She's talking about how her parents drove over this bridge to work. How this bridge was a problem when she was young and Mitch McConnell's done nothing about it. But I bring it up because at the end she just looks into the camera and says, give me a chance to try to serve you in this way. I forget the exact language beyond give me a chance because I always get a little stuck there. And I really appreciate that.

And I think part of that's because we've spent some time with her and I feel like we've seen her heart and it is that humble. Just give me a chance, like put me in and see how it goes. And that's a lot of what I'm doing in this election. I'm ready to give new people a chance. I'm ready to put people in and see how it goes.

That doesn't mean that every issue, I mean, I think this is the problem, and this is what this confirmation hearing that's playing out with Judge Barrett illustrates so poignantly. The Republican case is always, we are an inch away from the apocalypse and so everything has to get as locked in as it can.

And I am ready for people who say, give me a chance and see how it goes, and then pull me out if I don't do a good job. A longer view, a less existential view, a less fear based view. And I get that not every Democrat embodies that. I'm not ready to say I'm going to be a card carrying member of this party for the rest of my days.

I am certain that that won't be the case, but at the same time, I just, I am, I'm ready to give it a try because I know what this is. And I find it completely unacceptable. 

Sarah: [00:18:43] what's so hopeful to me is not because I think everybody is going to become pro choice. It is that I think that we will actually find movement.

Policy progress. Dare I say, compromise on this issue because we are all coming to the table. We are all, we are all willing to listen because we're no longer seeing each other as well you are fundamentally opposed to everything I hold dear. Now we're saying, you know exactly what I shared with my conversation with my best friend, Elizabeth. Like Lee, if you would put Elizabeth and I had a table like we can hammer this out. 

We have hammered it out, even though we still disagree. Like to me, that's the power of democracy instead of just, you know, doubling down and getting stuck, which is abs I don't care how you feel about abortion. If you don't categorize this policy issue as stuck, then you live in a different universe than I do.

And I don't want to be stuck anymore. And as long as we see each other as a characterization, as a villainization of the other side, quote unquote, we can't get anywhere. And that is so central to their political philosophy. Just like you said, like it's not that it's that you are anti-American, you're a socialist. You want to kill babies. 

Like it can't just be like, you see the role differently. And I see the role of government this way, you see it this way, and we're going to have to figure this out together. It's that you can't have it's it's, it's how we get to where we want to kidnap a governor. Instead of just fight to have a different person win the election is that the only option available to us is, uh, violence and kidnapping and trying someone for treason because they disagree with you politically.

Like that's how you get there is formulating everything in this very. Fear battle high stakes way. And look, I think this election is high stakes. I think Amy Coney Barrett's confirmation is high stakes, but the idea that we must lean into everybody's worst instincts, biggest fears, and get them in a place where they are reacting, instead of responding based on a vision of hope, based on a vision of progress, based on a vision of forward movement. 

To me, that is just, it is dangerous and bad for our democracy. And it feels like to me, despite their best efforts to try to. Make this about the courts or make this about pack court packing, which we're going to talk about on Friday, it does feel like Americans are like, no, I can't do this anymore. I cannot do this anymore with you. It's exhausting. It sure feels like that's where so many of you are out there. And that, that to me is huge and like I said, we'll have impact way beyond this election. 

Beth: [00:21:49] As we think about the stakes, our listener, Cody calls me his internet mom, which I just love.

So my internet son Cody reminded us that as we are recording today, it is the 12th anniversary of Matthew Shepard's death. If you are too young to remember this Matthew Shepard in 1998, died at age 21 from severe head injuries after being beaten and tortured in Wyoming. Two men were convicted of murder and received life sentences and his death inspired legislation in 2009 that expands federal hate crime laws to encompass crimes motivated by gender sexual orientation, gender identity, and disability.

And 12 years later, we just want to note that his loss is still present and the way that we love and celebrate and embrace the LGBTQ plus people in our lives is on the ballot because this president has made it so. In his language about marriage and healthcare, his executive orders on military service and as Jennifer Finney Boylan describes in the New York times, we'll link to her op-ed, just a constant insinuation that this community of people are less than equal.

 And I was so grateful that Cody reminded us of this marker in time. And I'm just sending lots of love to Matthew Shepherd's family and to everyone listening, who is part of the LGBTQ community. And I just hope that you feel the embrace and celebration of you here today and every day. On national coming out day and beyond, and that you see from your friends and neighbors, political action that shows you that you matter. 

Sarah: [00:23:38] Before we share interview with Susan Page we are going to hand the mic over to Amber. She emailed us a story. Yo I'm tearing up, just remembering it. So good. You're going to love this story so much. The second she sent us the email we thought no, Amber has to tell this story to everybody on the podcast. So here is Amber with your moment of hope.

Amber: [00:24:08] Hi Beth and Sarah, my name is Amber and I wanted to thank you for your weekly contributions to my life. I grew up in a family that sent me to school with political buttons for various Republican candidates pinned to my shirt. I intertwined their beliefs with what it meant to be good and it's been a hell of a ride on tangling that mess. 

Now I'm a queer teacher in a small Midwest town that houses a Southern Baptist University as one of its main employers. Needless to say it can get lonely. I was walking my dog, listening to your episode that mentioned the Biden t-shirt and it solidified a plan that I had been tossing around in my head.

On my morning commute, I pass a house with Biden signs. I've noticed that they've been torn down, moved throughout the yard and recently I drove by to see a woman adding a security camera to the side of her home. When I see her signs, though, I feel less alone. It's a boost every morning on my drive to school. I finished your episode, went home and wrote these beautiful, unknown neighbors a card.

I used the money I used to tith with to buy this family a hefty gift card to a local business and drops the unlicked, Covids weird, envelope into their mailbox. The next day, I got a Facebook message from a woman I did not know. She identified herself as my Biden beauty, and shared her story. She's 65 and was also feeling alone in our town.

She lives with her two terminally ill grandsons and is determined to vote with their future and mind. She told me to look into her yard on my way home because there was a new sign just for me. When I drove home "shine your light for Biden" was written in glitter bubble letters and standing proudly in her yard.

She, and I are now working with a group of other women from our community to complete Glennon Doyle's 40 days Challenge for voting activism. So thank you for the nudge.

Beth: [00:26:01] So much for sharing that story. Next up, you're going to hear from Susan Page.

Sarah: [00:26:10] We are so thrilled to be here with Susan Page. Long time friend of our podcast, came to our live show in Washington, DC, and most recently the moderator of the vice presidential debate. Thank you so much for joining us, Susan. 

Susan Page: [00:26:23] Hey, Sarah, it's great to be with you again. 

Sarah: [00:26:26] Okay. Well, let's, let's start with just truly the most important question. What was it like to watch Kate McKinnon portray you on Saturday Night Live? 

Susan Page: [00:26:34] It was so awesome. So great. And you know, it totally elevated my statute with my children. 

Sarah: [00:26:41] right?? 

Susan Page: [00:26:41] I dont think they cared so much about the debate, but to be on Saturday Night Live and portrayed by Kate McKinnon. I mean, that's really big.

Sarah: [00:26:50] I mean, when I, when she popped up, I was like, I'm so jealous of Susan and this moment right now, like that is a true bucket list right there. 

Susan Page: [00:26:58] Totally. And she didn't make much fun of me, which I also appreciated. Even if she had made fun of me, it would have been okay. 

Sarah: [00:27:05] Oh, I love it. I love it so much. 

Beth: [00:27:07] Well, we wanted to ask you from the top to just give us some education about the role of a debate moderator, because I think the commission on presidential debates is pretty opaque to most of us.

And I would love for you to tell us how much latitude do moderators have here. How do you conceptualize the role and, and what are kind of the guard rails that the commission puts around that?

Susan Page: [00:27:30] So I, this is something I talked about at some length with folks at the commission on presidential debates. You know, this first of all, let me say total surprise when they called and asked me to moderate the vice president to debate. Frank Fahrenkopf who's former Republican national chairman has been the Republican leader of the, of the commission for years and years and who I know well called and asked me to do that. 

And one reason I was so surprised was either four years or eight years ago. And I know I should know whether it was four years or eight years ago, but I don't, it was during a previous presidential election cycle. I actually sat down with Frank Fahrenkopf and Janet Brown, who's the executive director of the commission, to talk about that debates for that year.

And Frank said to me, you know, it's really too bad you could never be a moderator at a debate because we always have TV people. And I said, I didn't take offense to that. I said, you know, you're right. It's important to have somebody who's going to be comfortable on the stage. I can totally understand why you would only choose TV people to be a moderator.

And so when he called me, he noted, it was the first time they'd ever had a print reporter moderate a debate. So that was a big honor, but also one reason it was, it was such a surprise. I did have had actually some conversations with him and with Janet and with others about what the role of the moderator is.

And one thing we all agreed on was, this was not an interview that I was doing, and this was not a news conference that I was doing. It was a debate and it was a debate at a very high level for the vice presidency. And the, the goals that they set out was to try to have the debate be informative for people um, but to, but to disappear as much as possible.

 That the point was not for me to be asking questions that I might've asked if I was doing an interview, which would be designed for instance, to make a candidate go a step further than he or she had ever gone before. It was to give voters a chance to listen to them, to take their measure, to listen about their policy positions, to get, get a view of their character and their personality.

And that's different from what I would usually do as a journalist. So that was the attitude I took into this. It was not about me. It was not about them in a way. It was about the voters who were watching. And we know, you know, the, I think the ratings were about 58 million people watched the debate, which is really a lot of people.

Cool. A lot of those people were just beginning to tune into the campaign. They weren't of course, a lot of the people who are obsessed with politics were watching, but a lot of the people who were watching or people who were maybe just beginning to try to think about who they were going to vote for, who was, who were not consumed day in, day out with politics. And I had, I had those people in mind too. So that's sort of the approach I tried to take at this debate. 

Sarah: [00:30:31] I think that is so massively helpful because I'm sure you saw tons of the criticism. People felt like you didn't take them to account when they were lying or if they were sort of skirting the, the answers. And I, I think to say, Oh no, my job is not to interview them. It's a debate. So they should be holding each other accountable and I should be disappearing into the background. It occurs to me that if the goal is to have them disappear, maybe they should have turned away from TV people a long time ago.

I'm just saying, I think that's really, you know, we had a lot of listeners reach out and say, you know, I got frustrated with her. And then I realized, I don't think I really know what the role of the moderator is. And I thought what was so powerful is you let the questions do that. More than any other debate Susan, I think I saw with your questions how obvious it was when they did not answer. Like your, so when you were writing those, like, I'm thinking very specifically about the, you know, if Roe V Wade is overturned, what would you want your home state to do? Like that the way you fought or even, you know, did Breonna's family received justice?

Like I just thought, or is climate change an existential threat? Like the way you formulated the questions to me, you didn't need to put their feet to the fire because the questions did that for themselves. 

Susan Page: [00:31:47] Right. I'm so glad to hear that. Cause that was my thought. I, I wanted to ask the narrowest possible questions. I mean, I really wanted to ask questions that could have been answered mostly with a yes or no. Um, it was disappointing to me that so many of the questions didn't get answered. I mean, in fact, in some of the questions I pose the question, and vice president Pence did this more than Senator Harris, would talk about some other topic, not just some of the question on the same topic, but some other topic entirely.

And so in an interview, I would have been more aggressive in going back at him, but I did not feel that was my role this time. My role this time was Americans can see when somebody starts with a question and the other candidate could also call them to account. And it was frustrating for me. I'm sure it's frustrating for a lot of viewers, but it was not, it was deliberate.

It was what I thought the appropriate thing was to do in this particular setting. And, you know, it's, it's interesting. I've gotten a lot of, um, grief on Twitter, for instance, from people who think I didn't do a good job. I've gotten maybe a hundred emails from people I don't know who are clearly not into politics saying that they thought they learned something. That it was informative.

Several of them are, it was good for their children to see how a debate like that would unfold. And just one last thing, Axios and Survey Monkey did a poll of debate watchers and ask them to give one word that described this debate. And the most frequent word was civil. And the second, most frequent word was informative.

And I know realizing, taking uh getting criticism from people who care a lot about politics, but the fact that those were the two first words that actual viewers had to the debate really meant a lot to me. 

Sarah: [00:33:42] Well, with love, I can't imagine why a debate described as civil and informative would get under the Twitterverse's skin.

Susan Page: [00:33:48] No, no, I know you do. That's, that's what Twitter is about. Right? 

Beth: [00:33:53] I wonder in hindsight, because I know most of your work is very reflective, instead of in that instant TV model. On reflection, I would love to know if you think that conceptualization of the moderator role, which sounds to me like it has been the standard for many years that we want the moderator to kind of disappear, do you think it holds up after the first two debates? I guess the only two debates we're going to have in this cycle. And is there a need to think about this differently? 

Susan Page: [00:34:24] You know, I think we should always be thinking about what could be better and that's something for, for a lot of reflection, but, you know, I think we'll have another debate.

I think we'll have the debate in Nashville on the 22nd with Christian Walker. And we'll see, maybe she'll take a different approach because the commission doesn't, um, you have control of the debate once the debate starts, right? But, uh, I did, I was trying to do the job that the commission had envisioned, and I could understand why that made sense.

Like if you didn't, if you were doing a primary debate with 10 democratic candidates, this concept would not be appropriate. It wouldn't work. Right. But the idea is that when you're down to two candidates for the highest office or the second highest office in the land that maybe this is the approach that works. It was, you know, I went back and look previous debates, and this was kind of the approach that Jim Lahrer took, and he is the person who has done the most debates of anybody. The late Jim Lehrer, of course, of PBS. And that was his approach. It, it is a different day now, uh, you know, some of the old norms have been torn up. That was certainly the case in the first presidential debate that Chris Wallace moderated.

And that was, I think, a very frustrating experience for everyone involved. You know, we've, we have a disruptive, particularly disruptive candidate in Donald Trump. That has been part of his appeal four years ago and in this election cycle, and I'm not sure we want to overhaul everything because of our experience with one particular candidate, although maybe he's ushering a new kind of American politics. And if so, um, 

Sarah: [00:36:06] I hope not Susan. I really, really hope not. 

Susan Page: [00:36:11] Well we'll we'll see. Um, but some people say these debates are useless. Let's not have them. Why do we have them? I really hope that doesn't happen because whether you think the debate worked well or not, it was an opportunity for people to see these two candidates side by side, talking about big issues. And if we don't have debate. All we'll have, are paid TV ads and interviews with friendly anchors and rallies. 

Sarah: [00:36:39] So can I take you in a different direction really quickly, Susan, because you are the moderator and that's very important, but you also have a role as a biographer. And there are two questions I want to ask you.

You've written a biography, amazing biography of Barbara Bush, and it has one of my most favorite stories that I've been sharing a lot recently, as many, many, many women in our audiences and our audience have been re-examining the role of abortion in their politics. And you're a Barbara Bush story about abortion as my absolute favorite. Will you share that story with our listeners? 

Susan Page: [00:37:09] You know, this was amazing. Barbara Bush gave me access to her, to her diaries, which had never, which only Jon Meacham had looked, uh the biographer of George H W Bush had looked at them before. So this was really a remarkable way to see inside her head over decades and decades.

And I was going through the diary she was keeping as George H W Bush was beginning his first presidential campaign. And. In it, I found a letter she had written to herself about the issue of abortion because she knew this was going to come up. It was obviously a hot issue then and now, and it was a letter in where she was trying to figure out what she thought about abortion.

 In it she worked through the issue about the morality of it, the practicality of it, the impact on people's lives. And she talked about or the experience she had with the death of her daughter, Robin who died when she was just a little girl of leukemia. And she said that she remembered the incident of Robin's birth and that she felt Robin's soul into her body.

And she remembered the incident of Robin's death, where she felt Robin soul leave her body. And to her, that meant that the issue of abortion was abortion was not murder because your soul didn't enter your body until the moment of your birth. And therefore it should be left up to a woman and her doctor.

And that was a view she held for the rest of her life. And one of the things that was so powerful about this letter that she wrote to herself was there was not a word of political calculation. It there wasn't, it'll be awkward for uh, you know, politically it'd be better for me to say this or say that. It was all about how did she feel about it as an ethical and moral matter? Uh, so I thought that was really quite remarkable. 

Beth: [00:39:12] It's a really beautiful example for what I would love to see more of in our politics, for sure. Just that personal, ethical calculation, instead of everything being about politics. A place that I would really love to see that is around the way we're handling COVID-19.

And since you are busy working on a biography of another powerful woman in politics, we wondered if you might have any insight site for us into speaker Pelosi's approach to continued negotiations that feel like they're stuck in one place, even though there's headlines about them all the time, on more stimulus money.

Susan Page: [00:39:51] So Nancy Pelosi has, you know, had the house months ago, pass a big gut Covid relief bill for $3.4 trillion. And she has been engaged in negotiations almost ever since then, often on negotiations with the Trump administration, uh, about a bill. Um, she would like to have a bill, but she's not willing to take a bill that's not on her terms.

 She won't, she's rejected Republican proposals to do piecemeal bills because she knows that then they'd get some of the aid, but not other aid that she thinks it is crucial. And it looked for a while like they were getting somewhere. And then last week president Trump announced he was closing down negotiations and then he announced he was opening them back up with a bigger offer.

So you don't want to say these negotiations are dead, but I got to say three weeks till the election, it seems unlikely to me they're going to get their act together and pass this. I do think if after the election, if no Covid relief bill is passed before the end of the year, this will be a big agenda item. As when Congress comes back, uh, with a new president, either a newly elected president, Joe Biden, or with  Donald Trump having won a second term. 

Sarah: [00:41:00] What do you see, you know, as you're working on this biography and diving into her life, what do you see as sort of her like end game? Like, I mean, how old is she now?

80. She's 80 years old. 80. And so do you think she will run for one more term after this one? Do you think, like I'm wondering.  Are you seeing sort of any, I don't know if wrapping up, but she's just trying to get it into a Biden presidency as speaker of the house and her final term, or what has she talked about that at all?

Susan Page: [00:41:32] You know, here's something I think some people don't know that I've found in working on this biography, which is she had planned to step down after the 2016 election because she had assumed that Hillary Clinton was going to be elected. Uh, so the affordable care act will be safe and she wanted to spend time with her grandchildren.

She wants to write her memoirs. There's some speculation that maybe she would become the ambassador to Italy, uh, the country that both our grandparents came from. And on election night when she realized that Donald Trump was gonna win, she shelled those plans. 

Sarah: [00:42:07] Wow. 

Susan Page: [00:42:08] And to then entered what has really turned out to be an incredibly consequential period of Republic life. She spent two years winning back the control of the house of representatives and two years being the main democratic foil to president Trump. And she has in doing that she has displayed all the skills that she's gained over decades and decades in politics. She hasn't said explicitly to me what she will do after election night this time.

But I think she will do is do one more term as speaker of the house to pass a flood of legislation to counter what's happened in the past four years because you know, there's really no question that house will continue to be in democratic hands, probably with a bigger democratic majority. It is entirely possible that the Senate will now be in democratic hands again.

Uh, not for sure, but entirely possible. And you're looking at the polls now, elections, not today. Can't take this for granted, but if the election were today, Joe Biden would be elected president. So that would be, if that's what happens, that would be, I think, two years of a lot of legislative activity that Nancy Pelosi could see closing out her long public life.

Sarah: [00:43:24] Well, I can't wait to see what happens and I can't wait till we read your biography of her. Oh, 

Susan Page: [00:43:28] well, thank you. I can't wait to finish my biography. 

Beth: [00:43:34] As we are talking today, we have Senate confirmation hearings of a Supreme court justice going on. These continued negotiations in the house, the election looming.

So I want to ask you a question that I've asked you before. As someone with really unique access and insight people on both sides of the aisle, in such a busy time, at a paper that works really hard to think about what the average American can understand and invest in civically, how do you know what to care about right now?

Susan Page: [00:44:04] You know, this came up when I was comparing to monitor the vice presidential debate, the first thing we talked about. Cause one of the things I wanted to do was talk about things that voters care about, uh, because there were things like the Senate filibuster that I could have asked about that people in washington care about.

I don't think people back home in Wichita, Kansas, which is where I grew up, are obsessed with the Senate filibuster. Um, So when you think about the issues that really matter to people, I think it's healthcare. It's this pandemic, it's the economy, you know, we've lost 11 million jobs this year, 11 million jobs that existed in January do not exist today. That's affected the lives of people all across the country. Those are the issues that I care the most about. 

Beth: [00:44:45] Well, Susan, thank you so much for spending time with us and for asking really great questions in the last debate, that I would like to hear answers to, I hope people will continue to follow up on them. I hope you get those interview style moments to say, okay, now I want your yes or no, but we really appreciate your time, 

Susan Page: [00:45:02] Beth and Sarah, it's been so nice to be with you again.

Sarah: [00:45:05] Hopefully we'll be together in person sometime 

Susan Page: [00:45:07] soon. I hope to see anyone in person sometime. 

Beth: [00:45:12] That's so true.

We watched Enola homes this weekend after I don't know, 15 people who I respect told us how good it is. And it was really good. I feel like you and I have, you talked about a lot of interesting things over the past five years. I'm not sure we've ever talked about how much I love Helena Bonham Carter. 

Sarah: [00:45:51] Oh, yeah, she's great.

She is the good she is good. 

Beth: [00:45:54] I have like a small obsession with her and did not realize that she was going to be in this movie because my small obsession with her means I feel it would be disrespectful to her for me to let go Googling her and reading things about her personal life. I feel like she would not want that.

And so I uphold that. But when she is in a movie, all I want is for her to be on the screen the whole time. I think she is the most fascinating person I've ever seen. And I was so excited that she was and Enola Holmes mother in this movie. It's, it's a delight. Jane loved every minute. Ellen hung in for most of it.

There were lots of questions from her, but we handled it. Um, and it's just, it's beautiful. I want more, I would like a series. I would like more Helena Bonham Carter in that series, please and thank you. Um, it's, it's really lovely, but like, I'm just going to be vulnerable and admit to you that. But if I could spend a whole day with any celebrity past or present, it would be Helena Bonham Carter. 

Sarah: [00:46:53] seriously. Like I like her, but that is strong. 

Beth: [00:46:56] No, here's what I want. I want us to go to like a museum of modern art together and I just want to follow her around and stop occasionally to say, tell me what you see here. And I just want to listen intently to her answers and then maybe have like the most British tea imaginable.

And then maybe like sit in a library and read books together and not speak. And before the end of the day, I would like her to tell me about how she maintains this fabulous curls and then just be done. And I think it would be the best day of my life. Oh, 

Sarah: [00:47:23] that is hard. I mean, I like her, she wouldn't even be in my top 10. I mean like Oprah exists. And that alive or dead? There's so many people 

know 

like Jesus 

Beth: [00:47:33] and celebrities. I'm thinking of a very particular category of people, I suppose. I'm like, why'd you have to bring Jesus into it. Okay. Anyway, I think she's amazing. 

Sarah: [00:47:46] Well, I am a thinking about beauty routines. Our fave Anne Helen Peterson wrote a really great newsletter about applying makeup for the first time she went on her book tour. And the idea that like, it's only fun if you're choosing to do it, which I think is right. You know, about 10 years ago, I really got in the space where I was on my high horse about eliminating almost every beauty product and routine from my life.

 Like I, I let my hair air dry. I may be put on mascara and I felt like let's be honest, like some real moral superiority about it. And slowly now I'm like beauty product queen. This is mainly due to the influence of Jamie B. Golden. So, I mean, she's responsible for my fall from feminist grace.

I think she's probably okay with that. No, I don't actually think there's a necessarily a good feminist stance on makeup and stuff like that but slowly I've like added in all the skincare. I do all the makeup, but the one place I'd really kind of stayed stuck in the sand is  with polish. Like I don't get pedicures.

I don't get manicures mainly because it felt like another form of upkeep that I didn't want on my list, its expensive to go get it it done. I'd much rather spend that time and money on a just a plain all massage, but again, under the influence of Jamie B. Golden and Erin Moon, I fell for Olive & June. Have you seen this nail Polish company on Instagram?

Beth: [00:49:05] I have all the things I have the whole kit. I have lots of. Yup. Yup. Yup. 

Sarah: [00:49:09] It's so good. You guys like, again, here's the problem, in that 10 years I think I was basing my judgment on like products from like the early ots, you know, the products are so much better. It's shocking. It's shocking how much? And I mean, skincare makeup and particularly nail Polish.

I painted my nails on Friday. I reapplied the top code on like Tuesday or Wednesday. They didn't chip till Sunday night. That is a stain power unheard of. Like, basically they just started to grow out. This is not gel. It's just plain old nail Polish and it's so fun. 

Like the colors, like I did the pumpkin spice latte cause I'm basic, don't email me. And it's just like, their colors are so fun. The products are so good. They are not a sponsor of the podcast, although I guess at this point they should be. And I just like it, like, it feels fun. It feels easy. It doesn't feel like it's task I'm doing for other people, which I think is really the important distinction right?

Am I doing this because for myself, because I like how it makes me feel or am I doing it for other people because I feel obligated? And it's just something I'm really, really thinking about. As far as beauty routines. I don't know. What's what's next? I guess I could I'm not going to go back. The one thing I will not be going back on is the whole blowing out my hair every morning.

Now that's never, no, never. I really want full on Designing Women, big hair to come back in, but I don't think, cause it's just too much work and it makes me hot and sweaty, but everything else I'm just like really coming back around on 

Beth: [00:50:33] this is just the time of year when I need nail Polish, because without it, until about may my nails just break off. This, my skin does not like this period in the calendar. And so I had seen Kendra from the Lazy Genius talk about Olive & June in her newsletter and thought, okay, I'll I will give it a try. And I love it. I do think that the quality of the products was really high and, um, it, it's definitely helping with my cuticle and breakage issuesmand it's nice to just feels like I did something kind for myself here. 

Sarah: [00:51:06] Well, and I keeps me from putting my fingers in my mouth. Like I don't chew my fingernails, but sometimes I'll just like, you know, tap them on my teeth or something like that. But when they're polished, I don't do that. And obviously in the middle of a pandemic and flu season, I do not need my fingers near my mouth. So that really helps me to, I think it keeps me from putting them in or near my mouth 

Beth: [00:51:25] Well on that note. Yep.We're going to come back on Friday and talk about the Supreme court more. We're going to talk about the court packing question hanging in the air around the Biden Harris campaign. We're going to talk about the confirmation hearing of Amy Coney Barrett. We're going to talk about the court's role in elections.

So it'll be Supreme court Friday. I'll be on the nightly nuance before then. I'm going to tell you lots more this week about the court and elections. And Sarah has a really special episode of The Nuanced Life out for you tomorrow. So check all of that out and between now and then keep it nuanced y'all.

Alise Napp2 Comments