The Evolution of Friendship

Alissa is struggling with a friendship breakup. Jamie is dreading the transition of dear friends becoming long-distance friends. Sara started a podcast with a friend.

F***ing Ethical (Sara's new podcast!)

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Transcript:

201118_TNL_final

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Sarah 

Beth: [00:00:05] and I'm Beth. 

Sarah: [00:00:06] We host a Pantsuit Politics, a podcast with a remarkable community of listeners 

Beth: [00:00:11] Here on The Nuanced Life, we come together every week to answer your questions and commemorate your milestones in hopes of bringing a little more grace to every aspect of life.

Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us for another episode of The Nuanced Life. Before we dive into today's commemorations, which center on friendships, one of our favorite topics, we want to invite you to join us over at Pantsuit Politics as we put together an ask us anything episode. Now you might be thinking, I already know everything about those two.

Which is fair but we contain multitudes. And we invite you to participate in a community effort. As we all try to bring a little more levity to the end of the year, the end of a year, that badly needs levity. So anything that you want to know is on the table, you can send your questions to Alise at hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com.

And we look very much forward to answering them in an episode that you'll hear later this year. 

Sarah: [00:01:11] Well, yeah, my thought was not that people need to ask us deep questions about life love or politics, cause we do get into a lot of that, but that there's like probably some silly, lighter or totally unrelated stuff they want to ask us about, but can't fit it in the rubric for Pantsuit Politics.

Beth: [00:01:29] Start today with Alyssa, who is asking us a question, a version of a question that we receive a lot. And I think the best way to summarize this question is when have you just grown apart to the point that you call it quits in a friendship. 

Sarah: [00:01:43] So she wrote to us. And she has been friends with who were going to call her S.

Uh, for many years, they've been friends for over a decade, since their first year of college and they, they're not super close. They'd stayed in touch. S had a very traumatic engagement that was ended, but it seemed to have taken its toll on her. And so with COVID happening, what Alyssa has noticed is that S is turning towards semi conspiratorial things about COVID, some pretty offensive posts about George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter.

She says that they've had a couple back and forth via text that ending with her, with S asking Alyssa to mute her. She texted, but the communication has slowed and become more complicated. And Alyssa's worried about her. And she sees some of this stuff playing out in S's lives growing, but she's really struggling to know where the line is.

And should she keep trying to have these hard, messy, necessary conversations, or should she set a boundary and appreciate that S and hers friendship has come to an end and that they, you know, be thankful for the role that she played in her life and realized that that role is at an end. She says, should I reach out to her again?

I should have not felt any desire or need to, even a relief at the thought of not communicating with her anymore, but am I skirting my responsibility as a white woman to continue to engage in these hard conversations? Help! 

Beth: [00:03:07] One of the most useful things I've learned in my life is that sometimes it feels like we have a decision to make when we don't.

Sarah: [00:03:15] Um, 

Beth: [00:03:18] so I apply this to the, the situation between Alyssa and S and I think Alyssa probably feels a lot of pressure around making some kind of decision here. And I think S has made it. When you're having a conversation with someone where you're trying to understand where they're coming from and be influential and share where you're coming from and it ends in the person saying maybe you should mute me. I think the decision has been made. 

And I don't think that there's anything for Alyssa to do here. I think Alyssa should wait and sink into that relief of not feeling like she has something to do. And S might come back around and contact Alyssa randomly because she remembers something fun that they shared at one point, or she might invite her to an event at some point, there are all kinds of ways that unfinished business gets finished later. But I think this is a good moment for a pause. What do you think, Sarah? 

Sarah: [00:04:13] Yeah, I think there's two things going on here. One is assessing when a friendship has sort of come to its natural end and to another thread of concern we've heard from listeners, which is how far do I go to be a good ally or represent my values by pushing these hard conversations on the people in my lives life who I know have a loose relationship with the truth or be affected by misinformation or being swept into conspiracy theories?

 You know, one of the most valuable lessons I've learned in my life and hilariously enough, it came from Marie Kondo and the life-changing magic of tidying up where she talks about she's talking about objects.

And I think I had, I was the reverse of most people in that I understood that objects had had a timeline and that you could discard them when they were no longer useful to you. But I had not learned that lesson with relationships. And she says just like friendships, not everybody's meant to be our best friend through our whole lives, objects are not meant to stay in our lives for our entire existence. 

And I thought, Oh goodness, I definitely thought everybody should be my best friend forever. And so, you know, I had to learn that like no friendships have a, have a lifespan and that's okay. That's totally okay. And there's nothing wrong.

You weren't a bad friend and you didn't do anything bad, but people's lives, change and their connections with each other change. And so I think that that's, I think that would have happened anyway. It seems like their friendship had sort of reached its natural conclusion. 

I think the separate thing is this pressure we all feel to go out there and work on our family members and look, you know, I think some of our audience members feel that from us because we do talk about the power of those conversations. And we do feel like we do talk about how in our own lives we feel called to have these hard, difficult conversations with people.

And I think what's, you know, we cannot articulate enough is that those hard conversations come surrounded in a relationship that is built on trust and strong connection. That's why they can withstand the difficult conversation is because they're, you know, a close family member or a friend who you have had this deep connection with and continue to maintain that deep connection with outside of your conversations about these things.

But I don't think it's what either of us are saying, or calling any of you to do is to, to reach out to these periphery people in which, you know, you're only connecting, or you're only texting about these hard things because you can't, I just don't think those conversations are productive if there is not this foundation of trust and connection on which they are happening.

And I think watching our listeners do this and hearing their stories, the most successful conversations come because you can, you can reference that trust and connection, and you can sort of stand firm in that spot and, and test the boundaries. But I think trying to test those boundaries where there's, there's a tenuous connection at best is just a recipe for heartache.

Beth: [00:07:16] I just am not an evangelist for anything and don't want to be, because when I think about that word to me, it means this is the sum total of our relationship. I am in your life only to convince you of something. And I just don't think that works. I don't think it's effective. I don't think it's healthy.

And I feel like if Alyssa stayed in this person's life, because of her responsibility as a white woman, she would just be there as an evangelist for racial equity and political and social justice. And I don't think that would work. I think it would make both Alyssa and S miserable. I think it would probably harden S in her views.

I think sometimes there's more graciousness in giving everybody some room and recognizing that there might be something that pulls us back together, and I might have that opportunity for influence down the road, but I don't have it now. And so I don't want to force it if I don't have it. 

Sarah: [00:08:14] So my personality is that I am totally an evangelist.

I love nothing more than sharing resources and tools and my passion for dang near everything with anybody else on the street. But I think you're right. I think that can't be the sum total. That's not to say that it's not worth continuing to dedicate yourself to your passion for social justice. But I think that having these hard conversations is not the only way to do that.

And sometimes the work to be done, if you're passionate about a topic is with the people you have trust and connection with, and beyond that through community organizations or organizing, or, you know, bigger work where the work itself is, what's connecting us and building that trust so that we can make progress towards these goals.

We're making progress. You know, I think there's a space in which it's the trust and connection is where we can talk about these things. And there's a space where we can work towards these. The common work of the group is how we form that trust and connection to make progress towards this goal so that we can look past our differences because we're all working to eliminate poverty, or we can work through these differences and see that we are all aligned in our desire to prioritize vulnerable populations or children.

So I think that, you know, there's still work there. We're not saying abandon that work. It's just, the work is different. Sometimes it looks like a hard conversation. Sometimes it looks like organizing. Sometimes it looks like learning and self-awareness in a, in a group that you trust. But, you know, I think that in this space with this particular relationship when the relationship is so tenuous that I don't think Alyssa needs to feel any guilt about not pushing these hard conversations. 

Beth: [00:10:01] And we haven't shared a lot of details here, but there are a lot of details here that are not explicitly political. But are more cultural in a sense that Alyssa's friend has been making changes in her life along a variety of parameters that all kind of align around a certain brand of politics, but they are not only political.

And that to me is another indicator in this relationship that these are just people who have grown apart and have a different vision of the world. And who right now are prioritizing very different things in their lives. And. You just can't sit someone down and say, I feel like you've lost yourself without hearing no, you've lost yourself.

And here's what's, you know what I mean? Like there's their only path here is defensiveness, I think. And so space is a way of saying, I love you enough to respect that you're going in a direction. You know my view on that direction, and I'm not going to try to control you. And sometimes our presence in someone's life and, and our insistence that they hear us out can feel to them like control in a way that backfires.

Sarah: [00:11:13] So Alyssa, we wish you the best of luck. We hope that we have absolved Jewess as best we possibly can from feeling the weight and pressure of continuing reaching out to us. And hopefully alleviated any heartbreak along the way. 

Beth: [00:11:32] I just also want to say Alyssa, that where you feel some kind of pull or where that answer doesn't feel right to you, to me, the grace is in if she reaches back out to you being open to that and hearing what she has to say. I don't think you need to do some kind of dramatic we're finished sort of text message or conversation. This, the space is the grace to me.

Sarah: [00:12:02] So we had a question from Jamie. This is one of my favorite questions we've gotten in the course of the show. Cause it's something I feel very passionately about, which is long distance friendships. She says I'm sitting here tonight, crying about moving away from friends who have been family. And all I thought was how I could really use your advice and maybe a hug.

So first virtual hugs, Jamie coming all the way. She is in a military marriage and they've been all over the country. They've lived in five different States in two years and they found two other married couples and created a really intense bond that is only really formed in these sort of crucibles. And she's so grateful for these four wonderful people and what they've been through.

And they were.Kind of miraculously aligned as far as their assignments for awhile, but that time has come to an end and they're going to have to separate and say goodbye to these friends and family. And she's really heartbroken about when the world is seeming so uncertain that she will be isolated from these people.

She doesn't know how she's going to cope. How does she make the transition without losing her mind? And how does she maintain these friendships from such great distances? 

Beth: [00:13:09] Jamie, the first thing I have to offer you is that hug. I'm just sorry that you're having to experience this grief, especially at a time that has far more than anyone's fair share of grief. So taking a beat to say, this sucks for you and I'm sorry. 

Sarah: [00:13:26] So my three best friends, I would say in my life, none of which live in Paducah, two of which I met in college and one of which I met in law school, you know, really the circle is even bigger than those three of these women who are so important to me and none of which live in Paducah.

But my friend Elizabeth who's been on Pantsuit Politics was her husband was in the military. So they moved to Texas and Missouri and right. He's not in the military anymore, but as a result of that service, they are overseas in Germany. So I got a lot of experience with long distance friendships and I think.

The first and most important thing is my I introduced you to an app called Marco Polo, which is amazing. It's a video basically. Like how would you describe it? Like a video walkie talkie. You can have conversations, but it's, it's like on demand. You only have to watch and listen when you're available, basically 

Beth: [00:14:23] FaceTiming when it's convenient.

Sarah: [00:14:26] Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to describe it. And listen, I do that with friends who live in Paducah. That's how much I love this app. So that's how I stay in contact. Especially with Elizabeth who's on a totally different time zone than I am, but we do schedule like a couple of times a month when we talk over the phone and when we've all graduated from college and we're moving to different parts of the country, I'd also like to suggest this to you.

Jamie, my friend Elizabeth and our two friends, Erin and Amy and  our friend Cat, we did a journal that we sent around to each other. So every one person would write in the journal and then we just had the, the order and they would send it to the next person that was in the next person. And when you got it, you'd have the other people's messages in it.

And it was, and I have all the journals now and it's so fun to go back and look, to look back at them. It was, you know, as Beth has always saying packages are life. So it was such a fun way to stay connected through the mail and sort of like an old fashioned kind of way. So the journals were huge. We don't do them anymore.

Although I've, I've threatened to fire them back up on occasion, but the journals, the Marco polo app, and then we also just plant, you know, you have to plan in time. I think when eventually you'll, you know, COVID has totally disrupted this, but when you will get together, my friend, Amy and I, um, try to go on girls' trips at least once a year.

Although sometimes it's gone like as long as three or four years, unfortunately, just because of life. And I think just like. Letting those phases come and go and understanding that like, sometimes you won't be able to do the journal or sometimes people will check out from Marco polo for a while, or sometimes you won't be able to get together for months on end and just letting that ebb and flow.

Um, because it sounds like the bond you formed with these people, it's going to be one of those, those bonds that when you're in it, you're in it and you can jump right back in and it will survive those times when it sort of adds a little bit and people are busy and can't be connecting the way that you'd hope that you could. 

Beth: [00:16:17] I think that's great advice.

I keep coming back to just the empathy of knowing that it's not the same when you can't walk down the street or, you know, however, you've convened with people. I was talking to one of my neighbors the other day about how COVID has really made the neighborhood feel something like a college dorm. Because we're all here all the time.

And so when our kids were getting on the bus, they aren't now, but we would all see each other as we put the kids on the bus and something happens every day where we're all seeing each other and it's special in it's way. It's weird, it's hard, but it's special. And the couple of families in my neighborhood that I've stayed close to throughout the pandemic have been such a lifeline for me.

And so I just feel such a sense of loss for Jamie, but I think Sarah has friendships with her group from college, do show how possible it is to stay very present in each other's lives. It takes a lot of work, a lot of effort, not everybody is wired for the level of communication that has to happen to keep that connection across distance, but I'm glad that it has worked for Sarah and her group. And I hope that it will for you, Jamie, with your friends as well. 

Sarah: [00:17:28] Well, and it's so funny, you know, whenever anything difficult happens in my life, I just circle, I just cycled through that list. I call Erin, then I call Elizabeth, then I call Annie.

Then I call Laura. Then I call Leslie, like, you know, it is, if there is something about having, they'll still have your back, they'll still have your back. And I think that. In the way colleges and the way it sounds like this experiences, you form that bond through the intensity of connection in your everyday life.

But in my experience like that bond is very strong and there have been times when it took too much work. And especially when we were having kids and the kids were little, but it survived because when you get to know somebody on that level and you're connected to them, you will realize like you need them and the need might not be met in the same way, but.

That need and that desire to be in their lives will, will fuel some of that, that work of communication, because it's still rewarding. You know, even, even though we don't live close to each other and we're not in the same dorm, like those phone calls, those text messages, the Marco Polo's, the girl's trips, the family vacations together, like they are so life-giving and they are so rewarding in a different way. 

And so I just think like allowing that to evolve and seeing the beauty of that, because if you stay locked into how it was and can appreciate how it is now, like no Elizabeth and I don't live in the dorm anymore. And that was so amazing.

But now we go on family vacations and watching our kids get to know each other is like a whole next level of emotional love and health and connection. So, you know, I think that just like life and every kind of relationship, be it a marriage or a parent child relationship, like they evolve and just seeing our friendships as a part of that and, and being grateful for what was and appreciative of what is and prioritizing it. It'll take you so far.

Beth: [00:19:42] We want to end today with congratulating Sara who's commemorating the launch of a podcast. Sara, at 30, graduated from a prestigious MBA program in may. And so her graduation was not all that exciting because it was during the pandemic and she doesn't live near family and friends. So she didn't have any kind of drive by party or other commemoration to celebrate.

She's moved a few times to be with her partner and closer to family this year and has lots of support, but it's been really hard. And she said that she's significantly under employed doing temporary work, like lots of her fellow graduates while she's looking for full-time employment. This is the longest she's ever had to look for work.

She and her classmates have good conversations about how difficult ethical consumption can be and thought that moving their conversations into the public could support consumers who want to make good choices with their money and hold companies accountable for their actions. So they have launched the podcast and she said she doesn't want to let the celebration slide or wait until they reach a certain level of success.

She just wants to celebrate that they're doing something new during a really difficult time. 

Sarah: [00:20:56] I love this. I think this is one of the most difficult things I navigate in my own life. I'm really happy for Sara for this milestone, but I'm happy for all of us as listeners or their podcast is called "F**king Ethical" and we'll put the link in the show notes just because I think this is something so hard as a consumer to think through and work through. So Bravo, Sara. 

Beth: [00:21:18] I'm also really happy for all of us as listeners that we get to be witness to Sara's statement that she's not waiting for a certain threshold to decide that this has been a success in order to celebrate, because starting something new is difficult, starting something new, usually feels like a risk.

 When you start a podcast, you can kind of see people looking at you skeptically. I imagine that's true even more now than when we did it, because there are so many podcasts. And so I love, Sara's willingness to say the decision to move forward. Is it enough? And we're going to celebrate that because it is, it is an act. It is an offering and an act and an offering is worthwhile no matter what happens from here.

So I'm excited to listen. I think the topic is great. More than anything though I'm just happy that you're setting this example, Sara, for all of us, that our beginnings are worthwhile. Thank you all so much for sharing your celebrations and your questions and your struggles with us. We'll be holding Alyssa and Jamie and Sara in our thoughts all week.

You can share your commemorations or ask for advice by emailing Alise at hello@pantsuit politicsshow.com. We'll be back here with you next week to talk about more of what's happening and doesn't always get enough attention in life. Between now and then, please come over to Pantsuit Politics and think about these same kinds of issues on a more civic level with us.

 Until next week, keep it nuanced, y'all.

Sarah: [00:22:57] The Nuanced Life is produced by Studio D Podcast Production, 

Beth: [00:23:02] Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah: [00:23:04] Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music 

Beth: [00:23:07] Learn more about our work by visiting PantsuitPoliticsShow.com, sign up for our weekly newsletter and following pantsuit politics on Instagram.