Elections, Exits, and an Embittered Primary

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • 2023 Election Results

    • Kentucky

    • Ohio

    • Virginia

  • 2024 Dropouts

  • 2024 Presidential Primary

  • Outside of Politics: Taylor and Travis in Argentina

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EPISODE RESOURCES

ELECTIONS

REPUBLICAN PRIMARY

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude  

[00:00:34] Thank you for joining us on Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Today, we're going to talk about a true public service personnel frenzy. We have election results from last week to discuss. We have so many members of Congress running for the exits and we have a presidential primary continuing where we've got a whole debate to talk about, as well as some new departures from that race. Sarah and I was just thinking about this, like, are you good to do Pantsuit Politics again next year? I just think everyone should check in a little bit. We're all making a lot of changes right now.  

Sarah [00:01:04] Well, now is not the best time to ask me because I am very, very sick and I have rolled out of bed to record this episode. But no, absolutely, I'm in for the long haul here on Pantsuit Politics, even on sick days.  

Beth [00:01:16] Okay. Well, I'm glad to hear that and I appreciate your commitment. And we'll try to get you in and out here. Before we start, we want to make sure that you're all getting all the good stuff that we make for you every week. First, our newsletters come out on Friday, and you do not want to miss this Friday's. It's our holiday gift guide, but not “our” meaning Sarah and me. Our meaning our community. Maggie has solicited recommendations from our executive producers, and the roundup is amazing. Also amazing is that we now have wrapping paper that says Have the Best Holiday Available to You. We are just here to see and meet your needs, is what we're telling you and we hope that you love this gift guide. So if you want to sign up for our newsletter, the link to do that will be in our show notes.  

Sarah [00:01:57] Also, if you're not a premium subscriber, we thought it might be helpful for you to know that there is a two week free trial option on both Apple podcasts subscriptions and Patreon. So you can start listening to Good Morning with me and More to Say with Beth. In the past 30 days, we have a 93% conversion rate on that free trial. Feel pretty good about that. Once people listen, they really like it. And we don't want you to miss out on the good stuff we're making there. And as we're all in the car over the Thanksgiving holiday, this is a good time to try out your two week free trial.  

Beth [00:02:26] Up next, let's talk about those election results beginning at home in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.  

[00:02:31] Music Interlude  

[00:02:50] Sarah, It feels like this happened forever ago as we're sitting down to record, but I am still basking in the relief and joy that I feel over incumbent Governor Andy Beshear winning a second term. The Democratic governor here in our very red state, comfortably securing the ability to govern the commonwealth for the next year.  

Sarah [00:03:12] Yes, Governor Andy Beshear and Lieutenant Governor Jacqueline Coleman. The dream team. I just really enjoy when people are jealous of us. It just doesn't happen a lot as a Kentuckian. So everybody in our DMs been like, "Sharing with the nation." First of all, back up. Second of all, maybe. Third of all, I guess we'll leave that decision to Andy. But, yeah, it feels really good for competency and care and compassion and just good governance to win. That just feels really, really good.  

Beth [00:03:46] We've talked about this before, that so many Kentuckians have actually met Andy Beshear because he has made his way around the state. He and our secretary of state have worked together very well. And I think that's kind of the second big story coming out of Kentucky from these elections, are Republican Secretary of State Michael Adams received the most votes of anyone in this election. And I think that's because exactly what you said, Sarah, just competence, good governance. And with both Andy Beshear and Michael Adams, you see these two people from different parties very focused on what their job is and not focused on what their job isn't related to their parties. So Andy is good on Democratic issues, but the issues that he brings to the forefront of his work are Kentucky issues. And I think the same can be said about Michael Adams. He is very clear about wanting to have safe, secure elections here in Kentucky where people have an opportunity to vote easily. And he's done that. And he has just kind of put all of the national Republican stuff off to the side and Kentucky voters like that.  

Sarah [00:04:56] Yeah. Michael Adams is a Paducah native and former guest here at Pantsuit Politics. He's also been very clear about election integrity. He had a primary challenger. He won. It's nice to see, again, that level of competency being rewarded. And I'm wondering how you're feeling, though, about the national takes on Andy's win, this sense of, well, he vetoed the trains legislation and he's pro LGBTQ and that's why he won. I struggle with that take because it sounds very much like it's coming from outside of the state of Kentucky.  

Beth [00:05:32] I think Andy would have won whether or not Roe versus Wade had been overturned. There was a lot of "Abortion was on the ballot and that's why he won." And he did have an exceptional commercial about abortion. But I think he would have won anyway. I think he wins in spite of being a good Democrat on some of those LGBTQ issues instead of because of that. I hate to say that, you know, I wish it were so. But honestly, I think people look at him and think, well, maybe I disagree with him about some of this, but I believe he's a good person doing what he thinks is best. And I think that's true about Michael Adams too. People think this is a good person doing his best, not someone lying to me and telling me what they think I want to hear. And I can handle that.  

Sarah [00:06:19] Yeah. I mean, because the opponent in the gubernatorial election really tried to make those cultural issues the center point. He spent a lot of time and a lot of money trying to paint Andy as this very extreme liberal. He wants to mutilate your children, all this bananas sort of campaign rhetoric. And I've been thinking a lot about this. I've been thinking a lot about the way we talk about rights in this country and the paradox that Yascha Mounk brought up when he was on our show, the sense of so many rights. Like, the risk isn't being taken away. But they don't solve problems by being pushed. That sounds weird, but you know what I mean? The risk is the limit to free speech. Once we put everything in the marketplace of ideas, there is no guarantee that the best idea will rise to the top. And I like that he articulated that. I was thinking about that sort of framework as I watched Andy's campaign and watched how him and Lieutenant Governor Coleman navigated this opponent who really wanted to make the cultural issues the central point. And I thought I think that's where a lot of voters are, like, don't take it away. I do think abortion and that overturning of Roe v Wade helped, especially since he was running against an attorney general.  

[00:07:37] But that sort of rights fight is not what we see as the generic voter, as the center point of government, as the center struggle, as the most important thing. Andy was and is just laser focused on economic development and disaster recovery and just showing up in people's lives in really concrete ways. And it's not that those rights aren't important, but they are for a majority of voters, not concrete. Should you not have a trans child or should you not be LGBTQ? And I think even as the people who identify all up and down the spectrum has grown, you don't see a mirrored growth in the emphasis of that issue in the broad base of voters. And I think that's interesting. I'm not saying it's good or bad or otherwise, I just think it's interesting. And I think there's going to be a lot of people looking at this campaign and thinking about what they did right and thinking about how you have a Democratic governor win by that margin in a red state. And I'm interested in that analysis. And I think it's really important. And I think there are lessons for Democrats to learn across the country.  

Beth [00:08:46] But I don't know if they can learn those lessons by focusing on his campaign. I think you have to look at the entirety of his record and not just his record, but his conduct. To your point, Andy has been so good at showing his work throughout his entire term. That's true about COVID, where you may have a lot of people in Kentucky who would have made different choices if they were in his seat. But because he came out and talked to us every single day about what he was thinking and why he was doing what he was doing, I think people got the sense that, like, this is a really hard job and he's trying his best. Even if I would have come to a different conclusion. And I think on the terrible anti-trans legislation that our legislature enacted and he vetoed and they overrode his veto on, he showed his work again. So he didn't campaign on being a crusader for anyone's rights. He's just a person who believes everyone has them and that every person has dignity. And he said, "Where I have to play defense, I will use all the tools available to me to play defense of these rights." But our Republican legislature has a lot of power too, and they have a lot of power because they took a lot away from him during this first term. And that's the other thing that bugs me in the national coverage. When you talk about Andy Beshear as the great hope of the National Democratic Party, you give some Kentuckians a false sense of what he's able to accomplish here. He and Lieutenant Governor Coleman do a lot and the many people in their administration do a lot.  

[00:10:23] But our Republican legislature still has an enormous amount of power and continues to hoard an enormous amount of power. And so those national not from here takes bug me because I don't want the message for Kentucky Democrats who worked very hard in this election, and especially for like very progressive people in Kentucky, to be confused as to the full picture. The rest of the constitutional officers on our ballot went down in big margins. Those are going to be Republican officials for the next term and for the foreseeable future, unless the brand of the Democratic Party changes pretty substantially. And that's where I again I just want to keep hammering home like he won in spite of being a Democrat, not because of it. And I'm sorry that that's the reality on the ground here. But we can't change it unless we're honest about what it is. It was a really good night for Democrats across the country, though. Ohio, which I think is really not fairly called a purple state anymore, it's a red state, had two ballot initiatives that, again, by very big margins, voters took what is seen as a Democratic position on these issues. So they said yes to legalizing marijuana and yes to a constitutional amendment, securing the right to abortion care.  

Sarah [00:11:41] Yes. If I'm Sherrod Brown the Democratic senator up for re-election next year, I would be looking at these election results very closely and thinking about what do they mean as I run again in a pretty conservative state. But I think it's what we see so often, which is people support Democratic policies pretty broadly. And that's why these referendums we talked about a few weeks ago are being fought by the Republican Party because they turn out voters with probably low party identification, but who are happy to give a thumbs up, thumbs down on some of these policies.  

Beth [00:12:16] These are also the kind of policies that you can hold a legislature accountable to in a pretty clear way. They're so personal that if Ohio's legislature, which the Republicans in the legislature fought a lot over the language of these ballot initiatives, if they try to chip away at what voters believed they were voting on in these referendums, I think that will be very obvious to everyone and very consequential for those legislators.  

Sarah [00:12:44] I don't know. I worry that it's not as obvious as we hope it would be. How many people follow the state legislator? Because it's not a recipe for political engagement to say we voted on this referendum and then they chipped away at it. Let's vote the bums out. It's, of course, they chip away at it. See? The sort of cynical take of see, it doesn't matter what you do, doesn't matter if you vote on it directly, this is what happens. And I think that's sort of the risk and opportunity of these referendums.  

Beth [00:13:15] Really good night for Democrats in Virginia. There is a sweep. They have full control now of the General Assembly, which does two important things. And I'm cautious about saying this because we just talked about how if you're not there you can't get the full picture of what's going on. But from my seat in Kentucky, it looks to me like this ensures that a limitation on abortion will not go to the governor for signature from this assembly. Governor Youngkin there had been talking about needing control of the legislature in order to enact a 15 week abortion limitation. It also seems to quiet the Glenn Youngkin momentum in Republican national circles. He had been talked about as like a favorite of donors to get into the Republican primary at the last minute and up in that race. And it's hard for me to see that case still being as strong as it was before these elections.  

Sarah [00:14:10] Yeah, the 15 week was sort of the answer we hear in questions in the Republican primary debates over and over again, which we're going to talk about in the next segment, which is how do we solve a problem like abortion? If you’re a Republican. And Glenn Youngkin was sort of testing this idea that we would have a 15 week moderate ban and it was not good enough for people because, again, that's very early. I do think there is room inside of the debate to find a limit, but I think that limit is not moderate. I think that limit is very, very early in a pregnancy. And clearly the voters of Virginia agreed.  

Beth [00:14:45] Yeah, because most people's personal experiences validate that is very, very early in a pregnancy. So a lot of good headlines for Democrats coming out of the last election. And then we start to look at next year when members of the House are up for reelection, when some members of the Senate, of course, we'll have a presidential race. And we're just seeing a lot of movement here.  

Sarah [00:15:10] Yeah, this is the time period where everybody goes, "Do I want to do this again? What does this election tell me about how hard my campaign is going to be? And do I want a piece of that? And a lot of people are saying, "No, I do not. I do not want to be a part of this impossibly hard election cycle." Speaking of Virginia, Abigail Spanberger is not going to run for her seat again. She's going to run for governor since Glenn Youngkin is term limited. So that I think that will be a really interesting race to watch. I think she's a strong candidate.  

Beth [00:15:39] I think being a governor seems like a much better gig than being a member of Congress right now. And I wonder how much more a movement like that will see. Last week, Representative Brad Wenstrup of Ohio said he's done. He wants to spend more time with his family. Representative Derek Kilmer of Washington, who's been a guest on Pantsuit Politics, talking about his work to make Congress work better, to modernize Congress, will not run again. He wants to spend more time with his family. He also mentioned that January six took a big toll on him. And I appreciate that. That seems very honest to me.  

Sarah [00:16:13] Do we think that when people say they want to spend time with their families are starting to mean it? Because the sort of political joke wink and a nod was that never really means what they say. It means they don't really want to spend time with their families.  

Beth [00:16:26] This feels like a yes and to me. I think that they do want to spend more time with their families. And there are a lot of us feeling that because of COVID, because of January six, because of wars. There are a lot of things that are perspective inducing in the universe right now. But then here comes Representative Brian Higgins of New York, who is not going to finish his term. He is leaving in February, and he said it is because Congress is a mess. He said the House in particular is a place where institutional norms have been compromised, where the leadership has been an absolute failure, and he doesn't want to be part of it anymore. He got a regular job and he's going to go do that.  

Sarah [00:17:07] Well, I just think we're framing this up as a reaction to the election, but I think a lot of this is more strongly a reaction to the leadership struggles inside the Republican caucus and the weeks without a speaker of the House, another government funding fight coming. I imagine it is very exhausting and discouraging and disempowering. You don't have to squint to see how you could say, "What am I doing here?"  

Beth [00:17:35] I think that's right. I also think some of the very serious things happening in the world right now might have me reframing whether I want to be a member of Congress. When you have sort of traditional foreign policy norms, here's what it means for us to be an ally being challenged, both with respect to Ukraine and with respect to Israel, by your colleagues, by the parties, by voters. I think that gets really hard when you're involved in these enormous questions of right and wrong and life and death. And all of it is so controversial. And you combine that with a body that's struggling to just fund the government, I think all of that would weigh on my conscience dramatically. And we continue to see officials of conscience suffer repercussions for that. We continue to see acts of violence by voters, extremely heated rhetoric, death threats. I am concerned that we're making public service even more than we have before, just a very unattractive and seemingly dangerous option for a lot of people. Which often means that we have elections in which we're not super happy with our choices. And that seems like a good transition to talking about the presidential primary.  

[00:19:00] Music Interlude 

[00:19:12] Although I don't think many people are paying attention to it, we do have a Republican presidential primary happening kind of alongside former President Donald Trump running again. And so while he dominates polling and spends lots of his time dealing with legal issues, we have these folks out there running very hard for something, whether it is the chance to be the last person standing against him or some other purpose. So left in the group of people still running are Chris Christie, Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, Vivek Ramaswamy, Doug Burgum, Asa Hutchinson. And there's one new name to me. I don't know how long he's been in, but Ryan Binkley is still in. He is a pastor from Dallas who has a lot of ads up in Iowa. So that's the field. Mike Pence dropped out a couple of weeks ago and this morning the news broke that Tim Scott is out. I have a lot of things to say about Tim Scott, Sarah, but I just want to pause here to see what your reactions are to the field as it exists today.  

Sarah [00:20:18] Well, I was thinking because the Pence and Scott news, okay, at least they're figuring this out and they're dropping out. Then you read that list of names and it's still very long.  

Beth [00:20:25] It's a very long list of names. I don't think that everyone's figuring everything out.  

Sarah [00:20:29] Bless. I've just gotten to the point where I don't really believe anything Tim Scott says about why he got in, about why he stayed in or about why he's getting out.  

Beth [00:20:39] If you follow us on Instagram, you might have seen that I do a debate recap set to music after each of these debates. And usually I at some point make sure to tell you that Tim Scott bothers me more than anyone else in this primary because I similarly struggle to believe him at this point. He says things that I know he knows better. I also am really annoyed that the press coverage of him dropping out is like, well, his sunny, optimistic message didn't resonate with voters. If you've listened to him during the debates, it is not a sunny, optimistic message. It is a prosperity gospel message. It's a Christian nationalist message. Now he delivers it with, I guess, a smile if you're comparing him to Donald Trump. But it is a very hard core set of beliefs that he has been pushing throughout this campaign. And I think it's very generous to say that he is like the happy one of the Republican Party, when during this last debate he advocated as a sitting United States senator for the United States of America to bomb Iran.  

Sarah [00:21:55] I just think optimism is code for policy lightweight. That's what I was surprised by, is what a policy lightweight he is considering his time in the United States Senate. I don't know why. Over to the United States, I understand there are people there that are not paying attention to policy, are not smart enough to understand it. [Inaudible] But you would think that you'd tighten that up a little bit before you ran for president, and he didn't seem to do that.  

Beth [00:22:19] I think he did not do that. I think he also seems like not a great person to work for. I really gasped when I saw that a number of his campaign staffers found out from his Fox News interview that he was dropping out of this race.  

Sarah [00:22:34] No, that's shitty.  

Beth [00:22:35] I think that's terrible. And I think it belies the personality that he's tried to convey in this race. Like, yes, he has a great personal biography, but I don't hear when he recounts his personal biography a message that anyone in America can be successful because this is a great nation. I hear in that message anyone who's a Christian in America can be successful because America is a great Christian nation and I am a Christian. But I think that message in the context of a political campaign is pretty profane and very dismissive of the many, many people who live in this country who do not share those beliefs.  

Sarah [00:23:23] Yeah, I was hoping when we were talking about the personnel frenzy and his name, Kenneth, that he was also not going to run for Senate again. But it doesn't even matter. His term is like he just got reelected. He's there for so long. And it just puts a whole new color on the sort of criminal justice policy debate that was happening between him and Cory Booker, who is a lot of things, but a policy lightweight is not one of them. And feeling like, well, he was just doing that for press and to prop up this aspect of his biography. But I'm not sure he-- I guess I don't want to say he cares. I don't know the man, but it sure seems that way.  

Beth [00:24:01] I'm also very unimpressed that he's already announced that he won't endorse anyone in the primary. If you think what you believe matters enough that you should run for president, shouldn't you endorse someone among the field of people who's left? I mean, I just think both he and Mike Pence have a chance to help this field consolidate against Donald Trump, if that's what they really believe should happen. But I don't believe that that's what Tim Scott really believes should happen.  

Sarah [00:24:27] Yeah, it is discouraging, but not surprising. I mean, at every debate we've just learned that these people show us who they are and we should believe them. Did you learn anything else at this latest debate besides that?  

Beth [00:24:44] That's a good question. The only somewhat new dynamic I noticed in this latest debate is a tone shift from Chris Christie. And I get that Tim Scott and Mike Pence could very well tell themselves, well, I don't have a big enough influence in the primary voter bloc that my endorsement could even make a difference. And that's probably true. You add up a lot of these people, you don't get to the numbers that Trump is posting in early polls.  

Sarah [00:25:11] Right. That's why they're dropping out. Their numbers are so low.  

Beth [00:25:15] And so we could spend a lot of time here talking about the things Chris Christie said and how he said them. But I guess I watched it with a lot of interest, one, because he gets the closest to where I am of anyone on the stage in terms of policy preferences. We're not completely aligned, but he's closer to me than anyone else on the stages. And, two, because I just finished the Mitt Romney biography by McKay Coppins, which is my favorite book that I've read this year. I absolutely loved it. And it made me wonder watching him if he has read or is reading that book. Mitt Romney in his interviews with McKay Coppins and in his journals that he turned over for that book is just so openly grappling with what he personally has contributed to where the Republican Party is. Not in a perfect way or a totally relatable way. Lots of things about Mitt Romney's life are completely unrelatable to me, but it is an honest and searching way. And I feel like Chris Christie might be in an honest, searching moment. I'm not sure about that. But he definitely was less combative in this debate and used the time that he had to talk about showing compassion to people struggling with addiction, being pro-life beyond abortion, standing with our allies across the globe and why that matters in the context of history. I don't know. I thought he used the opportunity he had to put some good things in the river during this last debate.  

Sarah [00:26:50] Well, I mean, he's never been quite as combative as I expected him to be from the beginning, from the other two debates as well. I think that some of our analysis the first time is, like, where's the prosecutor? And I think post COVID when he almost died because he got COVID at the White House, you definitely saw something shift in him willing to become more honest and not say like, well, this is who we've got, so we got to make it work. But more like, no, this man is dangerous and we have to be honest about that. And I would imagine that that is something that he still grapples with. I think running for president can be two things. It can be a way to distract yourself. I think about Jason Kander and how he used running for office to sort of run away from his PTSD. But I think it can also be a way to really self-reflect and become increasingly self-aware. And I hope that's what he's doing.  

Beth [00:27:42] The other thing I notice to your point about no one being really serious about taking Trump on here is that Trump is campaigning to an extent, even though he is very, very busy with legal matters. And what he says in the course of that campaign is specific and disturbing about how he would use another term in office. And no one is taking that fight to him in these debates. They'll do a little like, well, he owes it to voters to show up here and maybe here are some things from his record that he promised us he would do and he didn't get done. Or Nikki Haley says, "Well, I thought he was the right person for the job then, but he's not now. We need a new generation of leadership." But where are the people saying he's telling us that he is going to run roughshod over the Constitution in the second term? He's telling us in really specific ways how he intends to do nothing but exact retribution for his personal grievances.  

Sarah [00:28:39] He's never been the best obfuscator, that's why he stood up and said, "I could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and people would still vote for me." He's always telegraphing what he's going to do. This is no different. I don't know how many other ways I can say I'm confused. If you want to run for president, why are you not running for president? Why are you not attacking the guy who needs to be beat? And I know that there's a lot of, I guess, complicated reasons for that regarding the Republican base, but that's why I struggle to watch these debates. What's the point? You're not going to attack him. So what are we doing here?  

Beth [00:29:14] I hope that I get from the debates some sense of what voters are saying to these people as they travel the country. An example of that for me is like Nikki Haley makes a point about classroom transparency, and it really bugs me because she never says what that means. I don't know exactly what she's talking about when she says we need greater transparency in our schools.  

Sarah [00:29:35] But you got an idea.  

Beth [00:29:37] I have an idea, but I want her to either say it or not. And I would like her to say it because she's the one who does a lot of we have to be honest with voters. And if you're being honest with voters, I think you would share that even the Department of Education doesn't have the power to do a whole lot about ensuring that you as a parent know exactly what's happening in your child's classroom. That's a state issue, not a federal one. Vivek Ramaswamy had this kind of interesting moment. I mean, I think he is in some ways even more disturbing than Donald Trump in what he says and certainly so disingenuous and uninformed. It kind of makes my skin crawl. But I did appreciate that when they asked him about abortion, he mentioned male sexual responsibility.  

Sarah [00:30:20] Yeah, I thought of Gabrielle Blaire and Ejaculate Responsibly immediately.  

Beth [00:30:25] Yeah. And so you hear little things like that, you wonder what's the conversation like when they're out in Iowa and New Hampshire talking to people that brings some of these talking points to the debate? But other than that, from a pure horse race perspective, it doesn't feel like a very helpful exercise. But then I get mad at myself for thinking that because I want to believe that if the Republican Party wants someone besides Donald Trump, they can have it. There are people here.  

Sarah [00:30:57] Yeah, I don't think they want that, Beth. 

Beth [00:31:00] Well, we will continue to follow it and try to keep it in some meaningful perspective.  

[00:31:04] Music Interlude  

[00:31:22] We always end our show talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics. Is there really anything Outside of Politics other than the joy of music and football that has come together through the juggernauts of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce?  

Sarah [00:31:35] No. Not right now there isn't. I mean, watching her run into his arms. Thinking about him flying down to Argentina to see her perform the lyric change. The guy on the Chiefs coming straight home to me, his face when he saw the lyric change, the dancers face when they saw the lyric change, everybody across the Internet's reaction when they saw her kiss him or the lyrics change, it's healing. I feel myself being healed by this delightful romance. Man, I can't get enough of it. Even from my sickbed I'm laying and just watching reel after reel after reel.  

Beth [00:32:13] I've always enjoyed learning about her mom and becoming a real fan of her dad. I loved her dad's reaction to everything that came through from Argentina. Here's how I know this is permeating beyond my suburban white lady existence. I was in line to get into an NFL game on Sunday. I went to see the Bengals play. It was not a great game for the Bengals, but standing behind me were two older guys, like true football fans in every way. And they're talking about how there are so many Joe Burrow jerseys in line and how you got to pay that big salary and everything. And they were speculating who could sell more jerseys than Joe Burrow? And one of them goes, "I mean, nobody but Taylor." And he said it with total affection, like not sour grapes at all. And then the other one says, "Well, you know, she's in Argentina right now. The weather's been bad. So she had to cancel a couple of her shows there." I mean, and they're just chatting behind me like me and my friends would chat about Taylor and Travis. It was so fun to listen to. And I just enjoy enjoying something. There's no dimension of this that bothers me. Even the people who want to say it's for public relations, I'm like, fine, you do that. I'm over here, I'm just going to enjoy it. I think it's really fun. As I said to one of our friends over the weekend, I think the ultimate sophistication is being able to say that some things are just fun and we can lean in to the joy wherever we find it.  

Sarah [00:33:45] I mean, I think the publicity thing is outrageous. Do you know how long it takes to get to Argentina? It takes a really long time. It takes a really long time if you have two Super Bowl rings to go to that level of effort to get publicity. Yeah, I love that he is seemingly celebrating her in a way her previous partners have not. I love that she's being publicly effusive. I'm a person who believes in aggressive enthusiasm. So I love the aggressive enthusiasm from them. And I just thought being in love is the best. But you get to a point where your friends are like, "Yeah, we get it. Nicolas is great. We don't want to hear it anymore." So to be in love and have literally the entire world obsessed along with you has got to be the absolute best. Oh my gosh. I just think it must be such delight. And she has given an enormous amount of delight to people over the last year. And yes, she has also made an enormous amount of money. But money can only do so much and it can't love you back. Money can't wrap up in those big old tightened arms. That's all I'm saying.  

Beth [00:34:56] Being in love is the best. And sometimes I feel like we don't celebrate that enough. You've said a lot about how there aren't enough good love scenes in movies anymore, and we've kind of gotten jaded on the whole enterprise. And I think it is really fun to just be out of your mind over someone else. I said to Chad that it's just every woman's dream to see someone proud of you in that way and respect the work that you do and feel like, gosh, I'm so lucky to be with her. And he leaned over and he goes, "And aren't you lucky?" I said, "I sure am. You're right. You're right." Because he and Nicholas are like that and it is really, really fun.  

Sarah [00:35:36] Well, I've just for a lot of different reasons been thinking about the very specific heartbreak of somebody saying, like, I don't want you anymore and how that heartbreak is also in equal measure to the joy of having someone fall in love with you and you fall in love with them. They both create a lot of really great music, don't get me wrong. But I think that being picked on, I think it's interesting that we're also obsessed along with all these long reads about people abandoning online dating and not using the apps anymore and wanting to meet people in person and wanting to date again, period. And I just think it's really great. I have a friend when we were in college, my best friend Elizabeth, was falling in love with her husband, Shelly, the same time I was falling in love with Nicholas. We had the same grades. We were in the same fraternity sorority. And my big sister [inaudible] one day in the cafeteria, I'll never forget, and goes, "It's like spring here." She was just, like, so delighted by us falling in love. And that's just how I feel about Travis and Taylor. It's. It's like spring. What a delight.  

Beth [00:36:38] Well, I have a non Travis and Taylor edition to the joy of football series here. So at the game, I just want to mention during halftime, University of Louisville marching band performed kind of a Veterans Day tribute. And I'm watching them go off the field and I see a Bengals player, a punter named Brad Robbins offer to take a picture for a color guard person and someone else with the band as they're going off the field. The two of them are trying to take a good selfie, and he walks over to them and you can tell that he's like, can I take this for you? And he takes a couple of pictures for them. And so I put in my Instagram stories that obviously he's my favorite player now because I couldn't believe it. I was just in absolute shock. I love the marching band. Being in the marching band was my whole personality during high school, and I felt nothing but absolute derision from the football team. So it was very healing to me to see him take that picture for them. So he responds to my Instagram story. And I just have to tell you this because I believe it will heal many people today. He said, "They put in work and attention to detail, just like athletes do. I admire the work ethic and dedication it takes to get the little details right." America, this is what we need. This is what we need. And I love it.  

Sarah [00:37:56] Well, that is related to Travis and Taylor, because you can see the shared mutual respect between them that what they do does take an enormous amount of practice and attention to detail. And I just think all of this is I hope, if not a death, a slow decrease in the level of cynicism we've had in America. And even tying back to our conversation about elections, I think it's easy to give in to the cynicism. And the more places that are cynicism free, where we can just celebrate and delight and be aggressively enthusiastic. I'm here for it.  

Beth [00:38:29] Well, I'm going to get myself some Brad Robbins merch.  

Sarah [00:38:33] Love it.  

Beth [00:38:33] And continue to watch all of the footage from every angle of Travis and Taylor and wish them all the best. And we'll be back here with you Friday to talk about more news and what's happening in the world. Thank you so much for joining us. We have some really fun plans for you next week during the Thanksgiving break, including an episode that we're calling A Guide to Enjoying Your People. You will not want to miss it. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you get your podcast. And we'll see you back here on Friday.  

[00:39:01] Music Interlude  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.

Maggie Penton