Election 2024: Closing Arguments
TOPICS DISCUSSED
Closing Arguments from Harris and Trump
Are the Polls Accurate?
Will There Be More Political Violence?
Christian Nationalism and Trump
Outside of Politics: The Best Time Zone
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EPISODE RESOURCES
Join us on Substack for live election night coverage! We’ll be in the chat and then live video at 9pm ET.
Process your post-election stress with Sarah, Beth and Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text! Join us in Boston via live stream on November 7 - for a fun night among friends.
What to Know About the Chinese Hackers Who Targeted the 2024 Campaigns (The New York Times)
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TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.
[00:00:14] Music Interlude.
Sarah [00:00:29] It's our last episode before Election Day. No matter how you're feeling headed into these next few days, we're here to process it together. And we're going to talk about closing arguments from both sides, how we're feeling overall. And then Outside of Politics, since we're also dealing with daylight saving Time, which seems particularly cruel, we're going to talk about time zones.
Beth [00:00:54] We are always going to be here to process things together. And we have decided to do some of that live on Election Day on Substack to chat with you. So if you are a Substack subscriber, we would love to see you on Election Day at eight Central nine Eastern- speaking of time zones. All you have to do is go to pantsuitpolitics.substack.com and subscribe to join us. We'll be in the chat around that period and then we'll show up with our faces at nine Eastern. And we'd love to see you there.
Sarah [00:01:24] And then, of course, you can join us in Boston next Thursday night if you want to process the election live altogether with Vanessa Zoltan from Harry Potter and the sacred text. And listen, if you can't make it to Boston, you can join us via our livestream. And the info about the show and link for the tickets is in our shownotes.
Beth [00:01:43] And to answer a frequently asked question. If you cannot join the live stream, if life does not allow you that particular window of time, the virtual ticket will let you watch when it's convenient for you. And here's what I know. Whatever happens next week, this is going to be a very useful opportunity to think through it together. What we've learned to have some fun to shake off the stress of the last couple of weeks. So I hope that whether you're there in person on the livestream or just have that virtual ticket to watch it at your convenience, that you will participate in that community of all of us trying to make sense of what we've just lived through.
Sarah [00:02:21] Next up, we're going to talk about closing arguments from both campaigns. Beth, as far as I can tell, the Trump campaign's closing argument is currently Joe Biden hurt our feelings.
Beth [00:02:41] I think that sounds right. And in some ways that's a consistent theme going back to 2016. What Donald Trump has been saying since he came down the escalator is, isn't it obnoxious that some people like themselves better than they like you? Isn't that annoying? Aren't Democrats annoying? And don't the rest of us want to take some kind of revenge? I mean, it is a through line.
Sarah [00:03:06] Yeah. And if you haven't been following this, Joe Biden made a remark in response to a question about the Madison Square Garden rally, which I do believe was his big closing argument. And it was full of racist and misogynist commentary from both the other people who filled the stage and Donald Trump himself. And then Joe Biden said, the only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters. His demonization of Latinos is unconscionable and it's un-American. And in reaction to that comment, Donald Trump rode around in a garbage truck and or a reflective vest to his rally.
Beth [00:03:54] He did do that. Those are things that he did.
Sarah [00:03:57] Did I miss anything?
Beth [00:03:59] I think you got it.
Sarah [00:04:00] I'm trying to state the facts and lay it out.
Beth [00:04:05] The through line is it has been effective, which is why I think he keeps doubling down on it. I think he loved that Joe Biden said this so he had a chance to say they're at it again. They think we're garbage. I've been telling you for years, they think they're better than you. And that has been effective. I think it's so interesting to consider what you could make of Trump's closing argument from Madison Square Garden. In some ways, the things that he said. There are all things he's been saying since 2016. How dare people think that they're better than us? How dare immigrants come into our country? How dare anyone ask you to share in any burdens attached with providing something for someone else in society? It is a very narrow set of ideas that he has been churning out with amazing consistency for almost ten years. And I do think that that is the one thing you can really give him credit for, that he's just a marketing machine and he's always going to play his greatest hits because he knows that that's what works in marketing. What I think he also has to understand, though, is that marketing gets stale quickly. And I look at Madison Square Garden and think this could have happened in 2016. And that's also not good, right? Because there is a staleness to it. And then when you put it side by side with what the Harris campaign pulled off in DC, he cannot like the visual comparison.
Sarah [00:05:46] Yeah, I think your point about marketing is excellent. People's attention span is short and getting shorter by the day. If you thought it was short in 2016, boy, do I have news for you in 2024. And I struggle with the word effective because I always want to check any sort of master narrative about him that he's some political genius. Because he contains such paradox. He has taken over the Republican Party and they have experienced historical losses as a result. Both things are true, right? Electorally, he's been very successful inside the Republican Party. Remarkably successful. That was my favorite line from Maggie Haberman interview with Ezra Klein. I know it was yours, too. That the takeover of the Republican Party has been his most successful endeavor. But as far as national politics, I always remind myself he never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. He wants to play to the base because he wants that feedback. He wants the feedback. He wants the you're great, you're awesome. We're going to pray over you. We're going to lay hands on you as you call people scum and the enemy within and garbage. There's a literal video clip of him calling people garbage. And with no irony, with no awareness of his own hypocrisy, with no hesitation at all, he goes after Joe Biden for saying this, which is again, a pretty consistent approach of his.
[00:07:34] It's that paradox I think that Kamala Harris's campaign has handled remarkably well, which is that he is ridiculous and also dangerous. That he is shown a historically relevant willingness to disregard norms around how a president should behave. How a presidential candidate should behave even at the Madison Square Garden rally. I was watching a Twitter thread with summaries of the moments. And the way that they will have a split screen of the rally and then like a QVC shilling there, like right wing Republican wine right there, that's kind of what's blown my mind this time. It's the normalization of selling things for your personal profit to your supporters, it's kind of mind bending. And all of that is, I think, hard consistently over the last nine years to conceptualize, to speak to because how do you speak to both the ridiculousness and the threat? And I think she's done a good job of that, but it is hard.
Beth [00:08:56] I could not agree with you more about the QVC-ness of it all. You and I recently read Melania Trump's (I guess we can call it a memoir) for Chelsea Devantez podcast.
Sarah [00:09:09] Maybe like a pamphlet. How about pamphlet with pictures?
Beth [00:09:13] Well, this is the thing. What's fascinating about this pamphlet is that you have Melania writing-- which is also a generous verb to use about this-- about becoming a citizen, about Trump's entry into politics. But the longest and most detailed portions are about products that she has lent her name to. It's fascinating. In the photo section, there are numerous photos of products that she has lent her name to. It is fundamentally a commercial endeavor. And I recognize again that there is a seed in there. This is what I think the Harris campaign has done so brilliantly. They've taken the seeds of the things where you go, you know there's something real there. When people are upset about immigration, when they're upset about the economy, whatever it is. I feel like the Harris campaign has adopted the most gracious interpretation of what could have grown into Trumpism for people. And so, I'll meet you on that. You come right in. Let's talk about that. There is a seed in this QVC side that I get that people believe that for ever people in positions of political power have abused those positions for their own monetary gain.
[00:10:41] Chad and I just watched The Instigators, the Matt Damon, Casey Affleck movie where they're stealing from Boston's mayor with the assistance of Matt Damon's therapist. It's very funny. It's a very, very fun movie. But I was watching it, thinking about how this movie just accepts a super corrupt mayor with an actual vault in his office filled with cash that's been given to him to do political favors. So I understand the seed of people believing everybody does it anyway. At least here the sales pitch is very transparent. The crypto, the products, the commemorative, whatever, the NFT. They're not even trying to make a product; they're just saying give me money for things that are not even things. So I understand the seed of what works about this. And it still just blows me away that people don't think that it is so incredibly crass that his campaign is an infomercial and not even a commercial. It's so crass. I just want to be done with it, Sarah. That's the only way I can conclude that thought.
Sarah [00:11:53] Well, we talk a lot about his reality show experience, and I don't think we shouldn't miss the influencer culture of it all either when all of us are creating content for social media platforms-- even if it's you're just sharing personal stuff, you're creating content for the platforms-- and much of that content is intermingled with affiliate links and sponsorships, some disclosed, some not. In the beginning it certainly wasn't disclosed. And that we've got all got this very enmeshed experience. And it's not new to social media. Back in the movies They do all kinds of product placements with Coca Cola and Pepsi and all that stuff. So in some ways this isn't new, but it does feel like did we think that this was going to be our everyday lives and existence and it wouldn't infect our politics? Because that was probably not realistic. And I think it didn't for a long time because of the norms.
[00:13:06] But I was listening to this woman talking about her beloved Ted Cruz, and she's like, "I listen to this podcast every day." And I thought, help, help America. I guess what I'm struggling with is if you are frustrated by what you see as the corruption that runs rampant throughout American politics or if that's your perception. I actually don't think corruption runs rampant, even though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a New York Times piece that said Eric Adams had an actual vault in his office full of cash. I still hold on with my bare knuckle grasp the belief that this is the exception not the rule. But I think if you think that, if you see these on the street interviews and everybody's like, the government changes the weather, the government controls everything, blah, blah, blah; if you believe that and there's that really deep foundational belief that there's this corruption, there's this corrupt situation, then why is leaning in the answer? Why is just a baseline acceptance the solution? It seems like we're unhappy with this. So why is the narrative that that's just how it is and we're all just voting our pocketbooks and the end, have a good day?
Beth [00:14:39] I don't know.
Sarah [00:14:42] Me either.
Beth [00:14:44] Something that I have valued in the Harris campaign under that umbrella of content is that so many ads are cut just from events. I like that she gives a speech and then the speech shows up as ads. That feels very grounding to me at a time when so much of what we see I'm not sure is real or not. It feels grounding to me that they cut him speaking. I can go to a hundred places, outlets left, right, center from Mars, whatever, and they all show the same speech. I can make sure this is a thing that happened. This is a thing that she said or a thing that he said. This is a place she was in or a place he was in. I have felt that those ads tie me to something that brings into focus that she wants to really do the job and that she wants to deal here in the tangible earth. And they didn't have to do that. They've got an incredible digital media team who has had a lot of fun on the Internet doing memes and stuff. But I appreciate that they've kept that in kind of a container and with what they do on television, the spend the dollars are behind things that actually happened in life.
[00:16:08] Because I have been concerned about content for a long time and what we're doing here and what we call it and what it means and how hard it is to pass. I have had a difficult time wrapping my head around the sort of creator side of this election and some of the reporting that's starting to come out about when you get paid to do something as a creator and does it matter if you would have done it anyway? Does it matter if it's disclosed? I think that whole universe is thick and murky and something that deserves a lot of attention after this is over. It has said a lot to me that she seems to want to put her foot forward in the real world always. And I hope that the American people see it that way, too, even if they don't spend as much time as I do in their heads about this influential culture.
Sarah [00:17:04] Well, you can just see the transactional nature of his closing argument. If it isn't about I'll stick up for you, it feels like the other closing argument is I'll pay you. No tax on tips. No tax on Social Security. No taxes. No taxes. No taxes. It seems like there's another list in his bullet point of no taxes every day we get closer from the side that used to be concerned with the deficit. So I have some questions. But it does feel, again, like it's a very transactional closing argument. And even when she's talking about economic realities, which I think she's done a good job of doing, I feel like also, like you said, there's a grounding. Like we want everyone to afford a home. We want people to be able to afford care for their elderly relatives. We're going to try to find real solutions, not because I'm just paying you, but because I want you to have an easier time in life. And if some of these economic realities are making it harder for you to succeed, then let's talk about that. But it's definitely different than I feel like his no taxes, no taxes, no taxes.
Beth [00:18:16] I have struggled also in leading up to this election with what to do on things like no tax on tips. There have been moments when I've been really tempted to do these very policy heavy episodes. That's been tricky because of the compressed cycle of this campaign. You usually do that stuff in a primary. That's when you're kind of refining the ideas and working out what are they going to stick with and what's the depth of that and what could the ramifications look like? And you have time to read a lot of different people's interpretations of how that would unravel. There are a lot of policies being talked about in this campaign that I think are not great ideas. I think no tax on tips is terrible from a policy lens. Not because I think that people who work in restaurants get paid fairly. I do not. I think tipping in general is pretty toxic economically and socially. And I am open to discussing how to fix that. But I think no tax on tips is a bad policy.
[00:19:22] I think we're in a terrible place with housing right now. I do not agree with the down payment assistance idea that the Harris campaign has rolled out. And that's the danger of rolling out policies. It's so much easier when you identify a problem, but then you identify potential solutions. It's always easy to take those solutions apart. There is no solution that every single person is going to be like phenomenal idea; and when we scale that up across the whole of the United States, there will be no negative consequences. Anytime you try to offer a solution to a problem, the solution is going to be really easy to rip apart. Where I agree with you so strongly on the Harris closing argument is that she has crystallized the problems in such a felt way.
[00:20:15] We've been talking about health care for a long time. And she has said we need to talk about the end of life experience. We need to talk about how draining it is for families to care for loved ones when they are in their final chapter. We need to talk about how difficult it is for people in their final chapter to get access to what they need. She has brought it in personally because the more you can tell that story and the more you can make people feel what we're dealing with, the more opportunity you have to start looking at solutions and start orienting people to the fact that like, yeah, this solution might not be perfect; it might cost a whole lot. Do we think it's worth that? Can we talk about what it's costing us to have the problem? I just think her campaign closing argument is a set of really good civic conversation starters.
Sarah [00:21:13] I totally agree. I don't know where our civic conversation skills are after nine years of Donald Trump. That's my concern. I think it's going to take some time. But I do think that the majority of people are ready to turn the page. I think that's probably her strongest tagline. Aren't we all ready to move on? Do we want to keep doing this where we hate each other and everything's awful and we just keep self-sorting? I do think a lot of people don't want that any more. And I think her closing argument that is future oriented is good. I think people like to be future oriented, and I can't help but remember Nikki Haley's quote. The first party that retires their elderly candidate will be the party that wins. And all of that feels right to me. It feels right that people are ready to turn the page. It feels right that I'm hearing all these anecdotal stories about Republicans persuaded by her closing argument and independents persuaded by her closing argument to say, I'm going to include you. I'm not trying to build some radical left agenda. I'm trying to move us forward. And maybe it'll be pragmatically and maybe it'll be a small step at a time, but it won't be this. Are we all ready to move on from this? I think that's a strong closing argument. Again, that's what I feel. That's anecdotally what I am hearing in my own personal life and what I'm hearing from our listeners in our community online. But shall we talk about the polling of it all, Beth?
[00:22:55] Music Interlude.
[00:23:04] My husband and I had a long talk this morning about the poles on our morning walk because we talk a lot about how much Donald Trump has changed our politics over the last nine years. We talk a lot about how much the pandemic has changed America in American politics. We talk a lot about generational differences and demographic changes in America when it comes to everything but our politics as well. And when I think about that, I don't know if you remember when we thought it was going to be Biden, we had a conversation where I said, I'm just trying to not get stuck in old ideas about politics and the rules for presidential elections. I'm really trying to stay limber and recognize and feel what is different. And when I look at the polls, I just think, are they stuck? Is this half and half, this tie, a manifestation of the fact that everything is different and we don't know quite how to measure that yet? I have no statistical basis for this, but if it shakes out that it really was 50-50 in all these states, I'm going to be surprised. I'm going to be really surprised.
Beth [00:24:44] I've listened to a lot of people talk about polling lately. I have not done an episode of More to Say or anything on it because I feel like I'm still learning what has changed about polling in this cycle from previous cycles, the level of confidence, how we should interpret polls today. I think that the 50-50 of it comports with what I hear and see in the sense that there is so much fear and hesitation about saying much about this election. And so right or wrong, I think many of us are walking around with the knowledge that there are lots of go to the mat for Trump people in our lives still. And those folks are pretty well sealed off from her closing argument, from the idea that she would put a Republican in her cabinet. Even if you said that to her, they would say, well, it'd be somebody like Liz Cheney, who's not a real Republican right there. There is enough of that sentiment out there that pretty much every person I know still has like a good chunk of that in their circle. And so I do believe that it's tight.
[00:26:11] I can also easily imagine waking up next Wednesday and it having been not tied at all. I can easily imagine that. So I have no idea where this is going to shake out. I'm trying to be humble. I still have wounds from the 2016 election when I spent weeks telling everybody it's going to be okay and then it wasn't okay. So I don't want to sow any false hope. Where I emotionally land, even as I look at these polls that are so tension filled, I just feel good knowing that the best campaign that could be mounted against Donald Trump under the circumstances has been mounted. I just think she's done an excellent job playing the hand she was dealt. Now we can have lots and lots of conversations about the deal, but the hand that she was dealt for her to so quickly get this together to construct such a tight argument, to be so disciplined in making that argument.
[00:27:20] To do it with a sense of lightness and a smile but also a gravity. For her to now be the living emblem of what joy and personality looks like in politics when a year ago journalists would sit down with her for an interview and start with, "Why don't people like you? Why are you so difficult and cold?" For her to have turned everything around so quickly once she was in the driver's seat, it's very satisfying to me personally because I like her so much and have for so long. But it also just makes me feel like a sense of peace about this. I cannot point to one essential mistake of this campaign in the short window that it's had and say, well, that will do it. If she loses, that's going to be why. And that is a good feeling going into Tuesday.
Sarah [00:28:16] Yeah. When I think back to 2016, which does feel like the ghost of Christmas past haunting this entire election, I had a lot of faith in the professionalization of the Clinton campaign and the people running it and the intelligence and expertise that they brought. I'll never forget the Pod Save America guys talking about the Trump campaign playing around on 270 to win and what an amateur hour. That lives rent free in my head because I knew enough to know that the Trump campaign wasn't running what we perceived at the time as a highly professional campaign. And look, you know what? I still believe that to be true. Not because there's no professionals on the Trump campaign, but because at the end of the day the candidate is Donald Trump and he's going to do what he wants to do. And so I think, well, am I being blinded like I was in 2016? Although I maintain was I that blind when more people voted for her? Was I, Beth? Where we blind? Were we wrong when more people voted for Hillary Clinton? Clearly, our perceptions of a certain reality were accurate because more people voted for Hillary Clinton than they voted for Donald Trump.
[00:29:22] But I'm really thinking, okay, what was true in 2016 could be true again, which is I'm not on the ground in Wisconsin or Michigan or Pennsylvania. So there are very important data points, vibes, even that I'm missing. Okay? So I accept that. I definitely accept that. And at the same time, I think you're right. I think the campaign has been run as well as it possibly could have been run. Very few missteps. Very good decision making messaging. Speaking to the voters they knew they had to pick up, which are independents and Republican- Harris supporters. So I see all that and I think deep down don't believe that nine years later is the day everything is going to break open and he's going to massively expand his coalition. I just can't see it. I just can't see it. I can't see it even with the prices, even with the inflation, even though everybody does have a $300, 12 foot skeleton in the front yard. So I don't know, guys. Even with all of that, I think, is he going to expand it? Is he just going to blow it out of the water all of a sudden, nine years, even though we've seen no electoral data points in midterms or in 2020 that he's just picking up garbage truck full of suburban women who have changed their mind about him. So, I don't know.
[00:31:06] At the end of the day, that's kind of how I feel. And I already felt that way before Bad Bunny entered the scene. I do feel like Bad Bunny perhaps will save our democracy. And if you were like "Sarah, who's Bad Bunny?" Bad Bunny is an extremely popular rapper and singer (I've heard him described as a megastar) from Puerto Rico who endorsed Harris to his kabillion followers on social media after the comments about Puerto Rico at the Madison Square Garden rally. And what I hope is that it will be a big margin. But where are we at as far as Election Day and post-election day? Are we worried about political violence? Because those are the two questions I think we get the most. What do we think about the polls and are we worried about what's going to happen?
Beth [00:32:00] I was texting with a neighbor about this last night. He said, Are the guardrails going to hold if she wins? And I said, "Well, I have like lots of sub parts to my questions before I can tell you what I think. How close is it? What's the margin? When do we find out what states are in play?" I feel so good that Josh Shapiro is the governor of Pennsylvania. I would have loved for him to have been her vice presidential choice. But I feel so good right now that he's the governor of Pennsylvania because he has a lot of credibility with the people of Pennsylvania. Even if you don't agree with him on every issue, I think he has really established that he's a guy that can make sure a credible election is run. And I think he's a guy who absolutely can handle whatever barrage of nonsense comes his way. So there are data points like that. I look at Michigan, Georgia, Pennsylvania, I feel such confidence in the leadership there to be able to manage what comes that I feel not super worried. Arizona has felt like the Wild West to me. I guess I should.
Sarah [00:33:18] It is, literally.
Beth [00:33:19] It is. I have been worried about Arizona for years now. So I don't know. I hate the stories about the ballot boxes where bombs have detonated in the Pacific Northwest. It's hard to know what to say about political violence, because I do not think that a large number of American citizens are going to go to civil war over Donald Trump. I do not think that. I think your point about the giant skeletons is exhibit A, because for all of our challenges, real and perceived, we are a great place to live. A historically great place to live. And I don't think most people are going to disrupt their lives in that way. Most people in my life feel attacked by extra text messages about the election. That is how much they don't want their piece disturbed by politics. And I'm not saying that with judgments, just as a matter of observation. So I don't think the vast majority of people are going to come to violence over this election no matter what it is. But you don't need a lot of people to come to violence. And that is where I continue to be concerned.
Sarah [00:34:41] Again. I'm trying to check myself. What did I get wrong in 2016? What did we miss in 2020 that led to January 6th? To the political violence of it all, I am not a Pollyanna. We have had two assassination attempts this year. The threshold at which certain actors are willing to do something violent and the reality that there are just so many guns out there is not lost on me. So I'm not a Pollyanna. I understand that we are seeing things that we haven't seen in a long time. Increased political assassination attempts, the fires in the ballot boxes, all of that. I get it. But I just always think that it's a safe bet that FBI and law enforcement don't make it their job to miss twice. And so this is the paradox, right? This is what we get caught up in with him, is the ridiculousness and the danger. I don't want to imply that the Clinton campaign didn't see the danger of Donald Trump. I don't know how many clips you guys get served in your social media feed of Hillary Clinton warning us of exactly what has happened, but I get quite a few.
[00:36:02] So I don't want to imply that they missed it, but I think there was this this sense electorally that he was not a threat. Maybe him governing was a threat, but electorally he wasn't a threat and we missed it. And I think in 2020, there was the reality of his threat to the process that we did not take seriously. So I'm not worried about either of those things happening again. Right. So I think that the chance that there are actors out there willing to act violently surrounding Election Day and its aftermath is high. But I do think that law enforcement is aware, hyper aware, hyper attuned and ready to deal with it. The way that the ballot box fires have been dealt with has given me a great amount of comfort. I didn't know that there were fire suppression pieces inside the ballot boxes. So that tells me that people doing this work are paying close attention. They get it. They know what to do, they know what to watch out for. That brings me comfort. But the risk always with Donald Trump is what are we not taking seriously right now? I'd like to think that after nine years, we get it. Like we've seen it. We get it.
[00:37:23] We know the risk that he brings to the table. I'd like to believe that. But in life, it is the things you never see coming that is probably the most dependable factor. So I'm trying to wrack my brain like what when it comes to him could happen that we're missing, that we're not taking seriously when it's a real threat. And I don't know the answer to that. I don't know if it's foreign. Action. I think that we've really mined that field when it comes to him in Russia. But I don't know. So that's what I'm just trying to keep in mind. Not a past threat that he has shown himself to be that we're not taking seriously enough. I really don't think that's the problem. I really don't think that's the problem is that someone just not really hasn't learned the lessons of 2016 or 2020. I don't think that's the problem here. But it's will he bring any new lessons in 2024?
Beth [00:38:29] It's such a good point. I could write out a lot of scripts where there is an action from Iran, China, Russia that gets very scary very quickly; even and maybe especially an action against Trump by one of those foreign adversaries I think would just do incredible damage to this country. Incredible damage.
Sarah [00:38:53] I'm so glad you said that. The reporting about the Salt typhoon, which is a hacking group that really went after the Trump campaign, and you have Democratic members of the Intelligence Committee saying we've never seen anything like that. They were listening in on people's cell phone conversations.
Beth [00:39:09] It's so bad. And anything that adds to the perception that the deck is stacked against Donald Trump is so bad for America in retrospect. And if it did not affect our democracy otherwise, there would be a tiny part of me that's sort of grateful that the Supreme Court has run interference for him, because I can say credibly, listen, he's had every advantage in this cycle, every single one. This was his to lose. And people cleared his path in every way. So I put that in one box, those foreign threats. The other thing that you and I haven't talked a whole lot about that I am worried about, but I haven't talked about it a lot because I don't know how to quite say what it is that worries me. I think it's exactly what you just said, the thing that I don't see coming from it, but the source that I see that's out there. I am more worried about the Trump Church connection in this election than I have been at any point before now. The places where I still see real devotion and enthusiasm for Trump are religious places. And that scares me because we have lots of historical evidence about what can happen in a religious fervor.
[00:40:36] It scares me because I have to believe that that is the point that connects a lot of the people who I love and are still attached to him. It scares me because it ties in to the garbage people. Like every place that you can say see we're being martyred, is fuel for that fire. I think about one of the things that broke through at my daughter's school was discussion about the protesters at the Harris rally when she said, you're at the wrong rally. And they took that to mean because they were saying something about Jesus, she was casting them out, even though that's not the context at all. That's what broke through. That's what made it to the middle school. That the Christians are being persecuted. And I struggle with this so much because you and I are that teeny, tiny percentage of people our age who go to church every week. It breaks my heart. It confuses me. It makes me feel like everything is negotiable, but that is a place where I could see a threat coming from post-election that concerns me.
Sarah [00:41:51] I totally agree. I had a friend who said little girl got in her car and said, "Well, we don't listen to Taylor Swift anymore because she's not a Christian." So the fact that that's the attack they're taking against her, I think is further evidence of that trend, moment, energy that you're speaking to. The reason I don't have a lot of concern about that, and honestly it's the reason why the talk of Christian nationalism doesn't fill my anxiety dreams in the way I know it feels so many people's anxiety dreams, because culture always wins and they're on the losing side of that. As a person who goes to church. And I think it would be helpful for people to go. Again, I don't care if it's church. It has nothing to do with heaven or hell to me. But I do think there is a missing place for people to go and ask bigger questions in a community together. I don't really care what you call it. But as a person who does believe that, it doesn't matter; it doesn't matter how much I think that would help. It's not going to happen. We're losing that battle. That's what they're reacting to with Donald Trump, with the privatization of public school, with all of that. And it's fine. Rage against the dying of the light, guys. Go for it.
[00:43:09] You're not going to win. You're not going to turn that cultural ship. I'm sorry. Go ask Europe. That's not how this cookie crumbles, y'all. And so that doesn't mean I don't think people backed into a corner who know that they're losing aren't dangerous. I understand that they are dangerous. But, to me, it all just feels desperate. And again, desperation can be dangerous. But I guess I just think what they want is what Donald Trump wants deep down, which is to be liked and chosen. And you don't get it both ways. You can't force it at the end of a gun and be liked and chosen. And I think at the end of the day, there's a bigger, more important segment of even this religious right that just wants to be liked and chosen.
Beth [00:44:05] I think this is why I've had such a hard time putting words around my concern. I think you're right that there is a big part of me that believes because culturally not just church, but faith association with religion at all is spiraling downward that that creates a particular form of danger. But it's also that I just find it painful to be talking about Christians as 'they' when I am one and I believe in one body of Christ. I believe in my churches mantra of in the essential is unity, in the non-essential is liberty and all things love. That's how I hope to live my life. So I don't want to contribute to like separation from people. I do feel that separation happening, though, driven mostly by the people that I would like to not separate from. I think I make a lot more of an attempt to understand and be open then they do. There's the word again. And I know a lot of our listeners are out there feeling that.
[00:45:24] So that's the one place if I had to hazard a guess at what I think could not be fairly quickly healed on the other side of the election, that that is a place for concern. That said, and again, I'm not trying to be toxic positivity over here, but I think a lot can be quickly healed on the other side of the election. If we can just get through to who won, and if it is Kamala Harris, I think we underestimate. I personally have for a long time drastically underestimated the shift that a positive leader can facilitate. And a positive leader through the bully pulpit, through the non-policy aspects of being the president. I mean, most of what was so destructive about Trump, I would say, came outside the policy.
Sarah [00:46:21] Yeah, one hundred percent.
Beth [00:46:22] I didn't like the policy and I have problems with the policy and I am never going to be like, it's just his tweets. But his tweets mattered a lot, and his persona matters a lot. It drives me bananas when people who like him and support him want to talk about who he is as an unfortunate but minor quirk. Who he is, is the deal. And who she is, is the deal. The best reason to vote for Kamala Harris is because of who she is and how she speaks and how she projects and the downstream effects of someone just trying to be serious about the job and happy in life and respectful to all people. And I think that that could do us tremendous good really fast.
Sarah [00:47:11] I hope so. I think that no matter what happens, there will continue to be shifts inside each party. I think if she wins, you're going to see a doubling down on the centrist pragmatism and the outreach. I think if she loses, I hope there's some real soul searching inside the Democratic Party. If he loses I think that there will continue to be a doubling down on the Trump of it all for at least two to three more years. I don't anticipate deep and honest soul searching from the Republican Party in the immediate aftermath of a Trump loss. And if he wins, I think that'll be interesting, too. I also don't anticipate any sort of pragmatic analysis of what comes next for the Republican Party. He's not going to pick an heir. He's not going to do some sort of succession plan. It's going to continue to be all about him until he draws his last and final breath. I just think that's the truth of him as a person. I'm sorry.
Beth [00:48:27] I think that's true in any circumstance.
Sarah [00:48:28] Yeah. Again.
Beth [00:48:29] I don't think we get away from the Trump of it all because I don't think he finishes running. I don't believe for a second--
Sarah [00:48:34] That he won't run again.
Beth [00:48:35] That he just says, well, I guess I lost so I'll go play golf at Mar a Lago. I don't think so.
Sarah [00:48:38] That's the other thing. That's the other thing I think everybody missed in 2020. We missed that he would not give it up on many levels, on the January six of it all.
Beth [00:48:52] And that no one would force him to.
Sarah [00:48:53] Yes.
Beth [00:48:54] That no one would take it [crosstalk].
Sarah [00:48:55] They had their chance. They could have. They could have saved the Republican Party. But I think all the time, because it hangs on my wall of our feature in the New York Times, five podcast to get you through post-Trump America. As if that's what was going to come in 2020. So hopefully we won't miss that either. I think we're all very clear-eyed. Even though he says, "I won't run again," he's going to run again. And, hey, maybe this is our worst prediction or maybe that he will immediately crown some successor.
Beth [00:49:27] May it be so.
Sarah [00:49:29] May it be so. Maybe. I'm just trying to open my mind. I feel like the thing I do understand better with every passing year in Trump's America is Donald Trump himself. So we'll see. We'll see what's going to happen. I think that no matter what in 2028, we're going to have Donald Trump on the ticket. I will say that. But maybe not. Who knows?
Beth [00:50:00] I only think that because of the relentless march of time.
Sarah [00:50:02] Yes. He is not immortal. That is true.
Beth [00:50:06] But I 100 percent agree with you that we will not be done with Donald Trump on the other side of this and that it is possible to turn the page. It is possible for him to be relegated to irrelevance, for that act to have fully run its course. For people to say that's too bad, that he's still out there and maybe he makes a few bucks selling crypto assets and NFTS and whatever, and he does his QVC shtick to pay the lawyers and do whatever he needs to do and fine. So it's both things at the same time. I don't think he's done, but I think he could be mostly done and that would be enough.
Sarah [00:50:45] Yeah, that would be enough. And I think that she could lead us into something great. I really don't like the basically just don't vote for Trump, I guess, vote for her endorsements. I think it sells her very, very short. I think it's sexist. And I think this campaign has shown itself and at the end of the day, it is her campaign to really understand where America is and where America needs to go next-- both wants and needs to go, because as president you have to speak to both of those. And I think she understands that. And I'm excited at the prospect of her getting to lead us there. So go vote, everybody.
Beth [00:51:31] I hear that when we vote, we win.
Sarah [00:51:32] When we vote, we win. We're going to turn the page. We're not going back. All of the taglines. Let's do it. Let's do it.
Beth [00:51:40] She will have a to do list.
Sarah [00:51:41] Right. Not an enemies list. And thank you to all of you for hanging with us through this. And we'll keep going together next week because that's all I can promise you, is that we will be here together next week.
[00:51:54] Music Interlude.
[00:52:04] All right. Outside of Politics, several months ago, there was a piece in The Atlantic where some writer whose name I blocked declared the Central Time Zone, the worst time zone. Which is outrageous. That's an outrageous take any time of year, but particularly during daylight saving time.
Beth [00:52:28] Okay. Make your case.
Sarah [00:52:30] Growing up where we all watched TV together at the same time, it was absolutely the best time zone because my prime time started at seven. So I got to go to bed early. How would you argue with such a thing? How would you argue with the nightly news coming on at 10:00 O'clock instead of 11:00 O'clock? With Saturday Night Live coming on still true at 10:30 instead of 11:30? How could you argue? How could you, Beth? How could you argue that that's not superior?
Beth [00:53:00] I'm not arguing.
Sarah [00:53:00] You grew up in Central Time Zone. You know, the blessing of TV watching in Central Time zone.
Beth [00:53:05] I grew up in Central Time. I grew up when every Friday night was TGIF. There was a run of family shows from 7:00 to 9:00, and it was great.
Sarah [00:53:14] That's a family time.
Beth [00:53:17] So you eat your dinner at 6:00, you watch TV together from 7:00 to 9:00. You go to bed happy.
Sarah [00:53:22] And also, okay, so beyond the TV, the sunrise/sunset of it all is far superior. There's really never a time for me in Paducah that I'm like, whoa, t's crazy dark early. Or, whoa, it's crazy bright late. So when we got to Scotland in the summer, I was like, what's happening here? What are we doing? Why is it still bright at 11:30? So even with daylight saving time, just the sunset and sunrise of it all is really, really great where I live in western Kentucky. Just saying.
Beth [00:54:02] There are a lot of reasons that living in western Kentucky everything just feels like it makes sense, and the clock is one of those. Western Kentucky is very unique. And Sarah and I lived in very different parts of western Kentucky, but some of these things, I think, hold true. It's a unique place. It's quite different than Eastern Kentucky, quite different than northern Kentucky where I am now, quite different than central Kentucky where my husband came up. It is its own thing. And there the clock really does work. I live on Eastern Time now and the only thing that I think is superior about Eastern Time, which is really not its fault, it's not central times fault, is just that so many people use Eastern Time in the United States as the baseline. So I think it would be easier to live on Eastern or Pacific versus Central or mountain because you're not having to do the math. You know what I mean? You're not having to be the slash. You are kind of the default time.
Sarah [00:54:57] I get that. And also sometimes we'll do things on Zoom with people on the West Coast and you're up at like 11:00 and I'm up at like a reasonable 10:00.
Beth [00:55:09] Yeah. No, it's very hard when we do those events late. Eleven for me to start anything is ambitious. I do my best, but it's ambitious.
Sarah [00:55:21] And my final argument is the travel of it all because, yes, I have to subtract an hour or two when I'm figuring out time zones, but also if I go to Los Angeles, it's the easy, breezy two hour difference.
Beth [00:55:36] Recovery is easier.
Sarah [00:55:37] There is very little recovery. If I go to New York City, I barely even notice. It's an hour. Who cares? And that's the best part if I land late in New York City. The best part about Eastern Time Zone with Central is it's just enough for you to trick yourself either way. So if I land late in New York City at 10:30, I'm like, who cares? It's only 9:30 my time. But if I get up and I wake up early, I'm like, who cares? It's a little early. It is the best time zone for all these reasons that I think I have laid out very clearly and logically.
Beth [00:56:17] Because that hour difference when you're traveling is no big deal, but on a daily basis is a big deal. When you're talking about the kids going to bed at 9:00 versus 10:00, that is a big deal day to day. And sometimes I question this. Does 10:00 O'clock just feel later to me because I grew up on Central Time?
Sarah [00:56:36] No.
Beth [00:56:37] Ten O'clock feels absurdly late to me.
Sarah [00:56:39] It's a late time. [Crosstalk].
Beth [00:56:41] A dinner that begins at 8:00 is too late. You know what I mean?
Sarah [00:56:45] No, this is not you. The New York Times did that whole thing about the lady who got famous throwing raves at 4:00 O'clock in the afternoon because people were like, "I just want to go to a party that didn't keep me up all night." So, no, you are not being unreasonable. Ten O'clock is late. Everyone says so. And by everyone I mean me and the ladies going to the 4:00 O'clock rave in the New York Times profile story. That's all I'm saying.
Beth [00:57:05] That's enough for me.
Sarah [00:57:05] It's enough? I just think it's the best time, and I feel like I'm right about it. I would also not be sad about Mountain Time. I think Mountain Time would be great, too. I just think you want to be in the middle. The middle is a good place to be.
Beth [00:57:20] I feel that about those things.
Sarah [00:57:23] I feel like people will think maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not wrong. I'm right about this.
Beth [00:57:28] It is difficult always when we come to Outside of Politics with a firm opinion.
Sarah [00:57:32] But I think we're right. I am right about this. And we were right about making your beds. You can fight about that now instead of the election. It will ease some of your anxiety.
Beth [00:57:42] It's kind of a gift to let people get their hot takes out there.
Sarah [00:57:43] It's a gift. So on Election Day itself, guys, we're going to share a very special episode of Pantsuit Politics. Because what else are we going to do? There's nothing else to do by that time. It is the most anticlimactic day as a candidate. Let me tell you what, when I ran for city commission. So we're going to share a very special state of the podcast episode, because Sunday is the ninth anniversary of Pantsuit Politics. So we're going to do a little birthday celebration next week.
Beth [00:58:14] And much as America has reached a time for choosing, Pantsuit Politics reached a number of times for choosing this year as well. So we have lots to talk about.
Sarah [00:58:23] Yeah, we're going to talk about that. We're going to invite you to step away from refreshing your social media feeds and just come and hang out with us. And we're going to talk about podcasting, which I know that podcasts listeners like to talk about. This is also a very true thing in the world. And so make sure you join us for that one on Tuesday. Again on election night we will be live on Substack and there is a chat feature in the live, so we'll be able to see you guys and talk to you guys. It's going to be really fun. So join us there. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
[00:58:53] Music Interlude.
Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.
Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement. Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.
Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios.
Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.